"If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it--then you are ready to take certain steps." ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
How many organisations do you know of that will put their members through that type of scrutiny. Our spiritual life demands of us to live on the highest of planes as far as it is possible for us.
Many of us come from a lifestyle that we cannot be proud of and little care to display it.
But God has made it possible to take our worst from the past and refine it and use it for His glory.
How does an unholy alcoholic come into the presence of a holy God?
God Himself, used a set of principles called the AA 12 steps of recovery and incrementally brought us closer to Him.
(ya know??? ... God chose Noah to save the 'good' before the 'Flood' ... both man and animal ... Noah was an Alcoholic) ... so there is your 'Hope' factor for us ... If Noah could sober up and do what was necessary to accomplish his task, then so can we ... with God's help and blessings ...
Love ya Bro, and God Bless,
Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
As much as can appreciate these views, I have a hard time believing that every alcoholic has a spiritual sickness.
People become very passionate about what they did to become sober, so much so that they create entire belief systems around it, which is what Bill W. did.
I'm not judging whatsoever, if it works for you then great. I'm just saying it's not the only way.
-- Edited by Jakamo on Monday 7th of March 2016 02:23:15 PM
Thank (Higher Power) that all one needs is to believe that a power greater than oneself, whatever that me be to work the steps. Even the Athiest can stay sober without "God".
Excellent post, Gonee. The replies are with merit, as well. I'm at the point where I appreciate all who participate in this thing of ours.Regardless of faith or no faith, h.p. or no h.p., anyone who stays sober and is helping others achieve sobriety is doing the program correctly.
-- Edited by Goofyman on Monday 7th of March 2016 05:18:50 PM
As much as can appreciate these views, I have a hard time believing that every alcoholic has a spiritual sickness.
People become very passionate about what they did to become sober, so much so that they create entire belief systems around it, which is what Bill W. did.
I'm not judging whatsoever, if it works for you then great. I'm just saying it's not the only way.
-- Edited by Jakamo on Monday 7th of March 2016 02:23:15 PM
Be sure you are able to differentiate the difference between 'spiritual' and 'religious' ... it is not the same, you do not have to be religious to be spiritual and vice-versa ...
As alcoholics, we allowed our spirits to come out of a bottle ... and it stole our faith, hope, love, and common sense, if we had any to start with ... our very own spirits died even more, the more we drank ... it became as if we had not possessed any 'spirit' at all ... we became 'spiritually bankrupt' ...
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
As much as can appreciate these views, I have a hard time believing that every alcoholic has a spiritual sickness.
People become very passionate about what they did to become sober, so much so that they create entire belief systems around it, which is what Bill W. did.
I'm not judging whatsoever, if it works for you then great. I'm just saying it's not the only way.
Be sure you are able to differentiate the difference between 'spiritual' and 'religious' ... it is not the same, you do not have to be religious to be spiritual and vice-versa ...
As alcoholics, we allowed our spirits to come out of a bottle ... and it stole our faith, hope, love, and common sense, if we had any to start with ... our very own spirits died even more, the more we drank ... it became as if we had not possessed any 'spirit' at all ... we became 'spiritually bankrupt' ...
Oh I very much know the difference between religious and spiritual. Throughout my lifetime I've been religious but not spiritual, spiritual without religion, neither, and both. All of these throughout my alcoholism as well as after. There where times where this did nothing, and times where they (all aforementioned beliefs) did help. They "helped" in my recovery but this alone, I've learned, is not nearly enough.
I've never mentioned my religious beliefs here before, and for very good reason, but I am Buddhist. I simple didn't want people the nitpick about they thought and believed about Buddhism. I don't actually believe in a god, my Higher Power is my Higher Self. In AA they say your HP can be anything as long as it's not you. I've heard on more than one occasion that it can be a doorknob (but if you actually believe a doorknob is a higher power than yourself you have some serious self esteem problems that need to be addressed lol). I've heard the self is an unreliable source, especially in the throes if alcoholism, because it is untrustworthy. But in my own personal experience it has been the most powerful source of all. It can be transcendental also.
I don't pray but I meditate almost daily. Prayer is talking to God but mediation is more akin to listening to God (or the Higher Self). Which sounds much more effective. Although an outside source can help, relying on this alone is questionable. True change must come from within. And it feels more proud and confidence-building and rewarding to know you did it yourself without giving the credit to a higher being.
-- Edited by Jakamo on Tuesday 8th of March 2016 02:46:03 AM
Thanks all. It's great to see how the board is becoming so active. It's great to see such insight and depth in the thinking of the members. This what I enjoy most; personal experiences of each member who had recovered from alcoholism.
Just keep it coming!
Morn'n Jakamo, ... I've always found Buddhism an interest'n practice .... If you've studied the background on Buddhism and how it came into being, then you understand that Buddha went without food for a long time and sat contemplating 'life' before he became 'enlightened' ... he became very 'aware' of his own 'spiritual' being(self) ... as his outer-worldly experience was put in write'n, he documented a tremendous number of simple truths the common man never really gave much thought to ... sometimes these are referred to as 'common sense' facts of nature ...
He certainly had a much deeper understand'n of life, in general, than your average person ... and his writings certainly show a keen power of observation and desire to be 'at peace' with himself and the world around him ...
Personally???, ... I think his life was dedicated to put'n his wisdom in write'n so that others could find 'peace' in a troubled world too ... without stating it, I feel he was observing the natural power of God in action ... thru which he found his own power to peaceful live'n ... he didn't create all this wisdom, but he saw it and used it for his own peace ... and taught others the benefits of that 'way of life' ... because, we must take some kind of ACTION and practice it regularly if we are to find what he found ... if that is 'finding yourself' as a 'higher power', then that 'may' be risky at best ...
I did not 'fix' myself ... I tried over and over and over again and again to stop drink'n ... always fail'n ... but when I developed a faith in the AA steps and way of life, because I saw that it worked with those in the AA rooms, I rediscovered the God I had long since forgotten ... and using the BB as a guide, I found that some simple actions, by me, opened the door to a God I'd never really come to know ... and when that happened, the miracle occurred ... the desire to drink was taken away from me ...
Did I fix myself??? ... certainly not ... I only opened my mind to other possibilities(as did you), however, I have personally witnessed too many events that were answers to my prayers that could not possibly be 'coincidental' ... all miracles in every respect ...
Love ya man and God Bless, Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
All you said about Buddhism is very true. A funny note about it, because you mentioned Buddha's going without food (fasting), is that many people think Buddha was a FAT bald guy. Because of statues and merchandise they've seen. This is not Buddha, this is Hotei (or Pu-Tai) also known as Budai. At the same time that Asian countries were exporting statues of Buddha, China was exporting statues of Budai. Because of the similarity of the names and both coming from Asian countries, the two were confused. Hotei is the Chinese deity of contentment and happiness. He is based on an eccentric Chinese Ch'an Zen monk who lived over 1,000 years ago and has become a significant part of Buddhist and Shinto culture. His statues became known as the Laughing Buddha. But he is not Buddha, he is a disciple of sorts.
I'm glad to see you are well educated in my belief system. People do not pray to Buddha, he is not a deity, but a teacher. Siddhartha Gautama (the Buddha) rejected the belief in a creator deity and deemed it unhealthy, but it's more anti-speculative than atheistic. He stated that questions on the origin of the world are not ultimately useful for ending suffering. No dependence of phenomena on a supernatural reality is asserted in order to explain the behavior of matter. A human being must study nature in order to attain "wisdom" regarding the nature of things. In regards to the existence of gods (devas) in higher realms, they are not absolutes and are regarded as suffering in samsara and are not necessarily wiser than us.
This, as I'm sure you know, is in no way insulting your beliefs. I'm simply stating the facts of Buddhism. Whatever you believe has worked for you and enabled you to stay sober, so keep at it. My beliefs have enabled me to not only overcome alcoholism, but become a overall happy person. We've talked before about members of AA who have been sober for 20+ years and are still very miserable people. Many should look into Anger Management and not just rely on AA to remove their defects of character. But that's them, we can also learn from these people just from the fact of what we also must do for ourselves to relieve the stress of everyday life.
I used to think meditation was just for Buddhists and hippies (which I'm kind of both at heart at least). But you'd be surprised by some of the people who do meditate. Clint Eastwood has been practicing transcendental meditation for over 40 years. Sure he's a badass, but he also has a calm coolness about him. Not hippie shit at all.
-- Edited by Jakamo on Tuesday 8th of March 2016 01:07:18 PM
Ya know??? ... you just taught me somethin I did not know ... and it has bugged me for years ... the fact that Buddha was not that fat dude I was led to believe, LOL ... because what I read, and it was years ago, and I wasn't all that sure I was very accurate, is I always was curious why Buddha was portrayed as a fat guy ... cause when I read the history, the man fasted for a very long time, under some kind of tree I think, and I do not recall any mention of him ever be'n obese ... you answered the reason for my mis-concept of him, and I thank you for that ...
Though not so much any more, I'm a mathematical/science type, and a couple of my mentors were Spock and Einstein ... I know, but it's true ... and I didn't find out until late in life that Einstein certainly believed in God, one of the reasons he was VERY apprehensive about let'n the USA proceed with the 'atomic' bomb ... he felt it more like 'playing God' than anything else and it disturbed him greatly ... but I guess it disturbed him more to know what the Japanese (back then) did to us in Hawaii ... I donno ...
Anyway, great topic ...
Pappy
P.S. ... It was Einstein that questioned that professor in college about God -vs- Evil I think ... if I can find that, I'll post it ...
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
The book draws some useful distinctions re spiritually based recovery, and there are plenty of other books, "Breathing Underwater" for example, that could lead one to believe that spiritual sickness, not just alcoholism, is wide spread in socierty today.
Dr Silkworth did not send every patient he had to AA, he selected suitable patients that he thought could recover on a spiritual basis. The book offers the possibilty that it might be possible to recover on a non spiritual basis, depending upon the extent to which one has already lost the power to choose. Then it lists all the different things alcoholics of this type have tried to overcome alcoholism without success. I related with all this. That is why AA was the place for me, I had lost the power of choice and I never got it back. That lack of choice, the lack of an effective defense against the first drink was with me 24/7, so like Roland H, my only chance of sobriety was to be permanently locked up - and I had no trouble staying sober when i was locked up in the loony bin.
It's the 24/7 defense that is the key. If I still had the power of choice, I could provide that my self, but I couldn't. I had lost the ability to think, I had to use my sponsor's reasoning power, simple decisions seemed incredibly difficult, little problems seemed huge, my thought processes were so messed up there was no way I could find my own way out. This is where God came in. I use the word God because I can't think of a better name. My recovery did not consist of me learning to make an endless series of "correct" decisions. The steps and prayer lead me to naturally act in a different way without conscious thought. It was and is inspirational and intuitive, not the result of rational or logical thought processes, and most of the time I only became aware of the changes after the event.
The result has been total freedom from alcohol. It does not influence my life in any way, does not restrict what I can do or where I an go. I take my God with me and can be completely independent of everything else.
I know lots of people stay sober without the steps or God. A big number of them, I venture to suggest, are meeting dependent. As long as they keep up the discipline of meetings they will be OK, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of freedom in that. I am always hearing of people with a lot of time up, talking about how their life falls apart when they cut back on meetings, or miss a few. That is not freedom to me.
The God idea, as the book says over and over, has lots of practical advantages, it is the way of strength.
