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Post Info TOPIC: Atheist Alcoholics vs. Alcoholics Anonymous (GTA Intergroup)
Tanin


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Atheist Alcoholics vs. Alcoholics Anonymous (GTA Intergroup)
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This Toronto atheist alcoholics vs. AA intergoup problem keeps bubbling up. Doesn't seem like there's a solution, though if there is one, it'll probably come from a sensitive reading and application of the Traditions.

 I haven't seen anyone do that yet. I have empathy for both sides but each side's position has glaring weaknesses. I am pretty sure that failure to resolve the active atheist problem hurts AA overall. That is unfortunate.

 

Alcoholics Anonymous Accused Of Discrimination

BY MICHELE MANDEL, TORONTO SUN

FEBRUARY 19, 2016

My name is Michele and I am not an alcoholic. But if I were, why does it matter whether or not I believe in God?

Talk about a lack of fellowship non-believers battling the bottle have been booted from Alcoholics Anonymous in Toronto. Now Larry Knight is taking AA World Services and its GTA Intergroup (GTAI) to Ontarios human rights tribunal, alleging discrimination on the basis of creed. Because members of his AA group are agnostic, he says theyve been expelled from the local Toronto AA directory and have been denied the right to vote on matters that are important to all AA members.

In 2011, Torontos two secular AA groups Beyond Belief and We Agnostics were expelled and delisted from the roster of local meetings because theyd written God out of AAs famous 12 steps to recovery found in The Big Book, its proverbial bible. Five of the steps specifically mention the Almighty, including (We) sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

That may have worked for the majority when they were first penned in 1939, but many seeking recovery today were uncomfortable with the religious, church-like aspect of the program so they formed new support groups that eliminated the God talk. On their website, AA Toronto Agnostics explain their philosophy: Our only wish is to ensure suffering alcoholics that they can find sobriety in AA without having to accept anyone elses beliefs, or having to deny their own.

They adapted the steps to be more secular: Step 11 became Sought through mindful inquiry and meditation to improve our spiritual awareness, seeking only for knowledge of our rightful path in life and the power to carry that out.

It all sounds pretty tame in these modern times. But the Toronto central office would have none of it how dare they mess with the text in The Big Book? The rebels were summarily expelled for their sacrilege. There are now 11 weekly secular AA meetings in the GTA; none can be found on the GTAI listings.

Knight wrote to AAs headquarters in New York asking for its intervention in GTAIs decision not to list his agnostic group. He told the human rights tribunal that he received no calls and no response from AA.

So he filed his complaint.

The reason we went this way is because after three years of discussion, nothing happened, Knight told the Sun. The clock ran out and were still not allowed to vote. Its important to feel that we are equal partners with an opportunity to speak.

GTAI argued that its members must be prepared to practise the 12-step program and have a belief in God. Knights agnostic group, they told the tribunal, is free to follow its own process but not as part of AAs Toronto umbrella office: It is a bona fide requirement that groups that wish to be part of this intergroup must have a belief in the higher power of God.

Knight disagreed.

The only requirement for membership in AA is this desire to achieve sobriety and to help others in this achievement, he told a summary hearing last month. AA was not meant to be presented on any religious terms and ... atheists and agnostics have been included as members in other parts of Canada and the United States over the years in order to promote an inclusive approach to AA membership rather than promote any religious perspective.

After a teleconference with both sides, the tribunal ruled this week that Knights claim of discrimination should go to a full hearing.

The fundamental question, the tribunal noted in legalese, is whether the Code requires a religion-based charitable organization to accommodate other beliefs by altering the services they provide on the basis of a differing creed by an applicant seeking to use those services.

Should traditional Alcoholics Anonymous accept everyone, even those who choose not to look heavenward for salvation? The answer seems obvious: For Gods sake, yes.

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/02/19/alcoholics-anonymous-accused-of-discrimination



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Goofyman


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The Toronto conflict has been going on for years. The reason I find this so baffling is that where I live, agnostic/atheist meetings are posted right by the traditional ones, and this is in Texas, just about the most bible thumpin' state there is, ya'll.

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Pythonpappy


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I've been around AA for quite a while now, and I know 'God' is mentioned in the BB many times ... and in my drunken state of mind, I wasn't too sure He was real either ... ... the Chapter to the Agnostics in the BB made a lot of sense to me AND opened my mind to learn more ...

One of the first things I learned in AA was that there is a power in the universe that has 'ALL' power ... and even though there was a lot of talk of God, I was told that this power could be any 'identity' I wanted it to be as long as IT wasn't ME ... for years AA has accepted membership for all who wanted help to stop drink'n (Three--The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.) ... AA's BB describes how that was achieved ... many of my AA brothers and sisters in AA describe how they had no religious belief prior to AA ... many still don't believe in 'God', but do feel their is a 'Higher Power' in control ... and many more have opened their eyes to the miracles seen in AA and have since confirmed their believe in God (which is where I stand) ... some even have placed membership in formal religious organizations to do what they believe it is that God wants them to do (which I have not done but am considering) ... most keep their religious beliefs out of the rooms of AA ... (note: Believing in God is not a religion ... religion is man made) ... AA is NOT a religion, our BB simply acknowledges the existence of God ... and how that belief helped many ...

Our 12 Steps and 12 Traditions have stood the test of time ... and I have every belief it will continue to do so ... if not, 'May God Help Us All' ...




God Bless,

Pappy



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Fyne Spirit


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Putting the boot on the other foot for a moment, I have heard of instances where for example, christian AA groups have been delisted because of affiliation to a religion, and requiring conformity from its members. I would also imagine that if a group were to modify the steps/traditions and use words like Jesus or Allah or Buddha or some such they would be delisted too, probably even quicker than a non religious format. An AA group must have no affiliation with anything, institution or belief system and obviously cannot launch its own version of a program and claim it is AA. That's just fraudulent.

And what does "god" have to do with it anyway? Helooooo!!! Alocolics Anonymous is a spiritual program of action with a single solution to alcoholism, a spiritual experience as the result of working the steps. In simpler terms, we tap into an unsuspected inner resource which provides the power to stay sober that was lacking before. A lot of us call that God, but it is our own interpretation of what God is.

Psychologists and psychiatrists refer to these experiences as conversion experiences, and they have been known about and studied long before the advent of AA. In fact Carl Jung sent Roland H off in search of just such an experience, it being, in his view, the only way Roland would find sobriety. Roland had an experience and stayed sober. Through a chain of events Roland's experience lead to the eventual formation of AA, where the principle of conversion experience was applied to the alcoholic problem on a large scale.

I heard someone once say, "if you took God out of AA, there would be nothing left." There might be some truth in that. If you took away the life changing spiritual experiences that seem to come about as the result of people pursuing their own concepts of a higher power, and trying to develop a working relationship with whatever power they believe is there, what would be left but a basic self help program. Actually not even that. It would be a self help fellowship with no program. There is nothing about the AA program that tells us how to fix ourselves.

We've seen such fellowships arise before, sometimes on a massive scale like the Washingtonians, but they always seem to have failed in the end.

I'm not religious myself. I don't have a problem with anyone arriving in AA with no belief. I was exactly like that. I tried the AA program and it worked. If I had come to a group claiming to be AA but with a different program, where are the guarantees that it would work just as well? Where is the track record and the proven experience? I am grateful I found the real deal, I might have died otherwise.

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Pythonpappy


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Love your post Mike, it sez a lot ... I read Carl Jung's book "Modern Man in Search of a Soul" when I was try'n to fig'r out what made this AA thing tick ... it was a 'very deep' book, but I did get a lot out of it ... (20 years ago) ...

Your experience in AA mirrors my own, very, very closely ... Great post, thanks ...


Love ya man and God Bless,
'Pappy



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Dodsworth


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I don't understand...one cannot change one of the basic tenets of a fellowship and then use that fellowship's name and demand to remain in the network. I don't think AA as a whole gives two craps what I believe or don't believe with regards to God. I am always welcome at a mtg and always have been. If I want to start a group that refuses to use the word "God" or even talk about it, I also don't think AA gives two craps because it is none of their business. But I don't think AA wants me using the name but not their program. Makes total sense. If you like what AA offers except the God part, do what everyone else does- go to mtgs and listen and identify with the similarities and link up with other agnostic or atheist AAers (plenty of them), or start your own private group. There are tons of AA mtgs that are unofficial. Why is it such a big deal? You can't honestly expect to rewrite the 12 steps and call yourself an AA mtg, in the official sense. AA is very clear that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. AA doesn't ask that you believe anything. I think they are just asking that you not change the steps and call yourself "AA". This all sounds like an outside issue to me- people who are sick and tired of the use of and idea of "God". That is a personal problem and not AA's problem. Either start your own sobriety groups, try SMART recovery or any of the other support groups or try some more controlled drinking ;) just kidding, sort of..

4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.

6. An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.




So in other words, do what you want...but AA groups who are lending the AA name to anything other than the AA foundational principles are not following traditions 4 & 6 and are under no liberty to expect anything from AA.



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Tanin


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Dodsworth wrote:

I don't understand...one cannot change one of the basic tenets of a fellowship and then use that fellowship's name and demand to remain in the network. I don't think AA as a whole gives two craps what I believe or don't believe with regards to God. I am always welcome at a mtg and always have been. If I want to start a group that refuses to use the word "God" or even talk about it, I also don't think AA gives two craps because it is none of their business. But I don't think AA wants me using the name but not their program. Makes total sense. If you like what AA offers except the God part, do what everyone else does- go to mtgs and listen and identify with the similarities and link up with other agnostic or atheist AAers (plenty of them), or start your own private group. There are tons of AA mtgs that are unofficial. Why is it such a big deal? You can't honestly expect to rewrite the 12 steps and call yourself an AA mtg, in the official sense. AA is very clear that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. AA doesn't ask that you believe anything. I think they are just asking that you not change the steps and call yourself "AA". This all sounds like an outside issue to me- people who are sick and tired of the use of and idea of "God". That is a personal problem and not AA's problem. Either start your own sobriety groups, try SMART recovery or any of the other support groups or try some more controlled drinking ;) just kidding, sort of..

4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.

6. An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

So in other words, do what you want...but AA groups who are lending the AA name to anything other than the AA foundational principles are not following traditions 4 & 6 and are under no liberty to expect anything from AA.

Dods, why would you suggest that the alcoholic atheists should go and drink again?

You were making some arguments on an important issue then, all of a sudden, you want some fellow alcoholics to go get drunk.

Makes no sense.



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Dodsworth


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Sure it makes sense. I was just saying what has been said to me numerous times by well-meaning AAers, and it was a tongue-in-cheek comment anyway. The BB also says that if a drunk is not ready to accept his/her alcoholism that a good case of the jitters might be a good thing. AA defines alcoholism, in part, as a spiritual malady and if one thinks he or she can do without God, or higher power or whatever you want to call it, then in the experience of the AA founders, maybe they aren't ready to fully admit their weakness. I didn't make that up. If they want to define alcoholism differently and the solution differently, so be it. I don't have a particularly strong God consciousness but I just think its odd that they are demanding that a program of help and support designed for alcoholics and thus, presumably designed for them, adhere to their world-view.

 

To be totally clear- I am not suggesting seriously that because they don't like the word "God" that they aren't ready to be sober. What I said was a little inflammatory, admittedly. I never liked it when people said "maybe you should go drink" either...

-- Edited by Dodsworth on Saturday 27th of February 2016 04:38:33 PM



-- Edited by Dodsworth on Saturday 27th of February 2016 04:56:59 PM

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Goofyman


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Funny thing, Dodsworth mentioning SMART and controlled drinking in the same sentence. Year & 1/2 ago, I went to SMART, it being nearby and not faith-based. At that meeting they said controlled drinking was fine. Good thing A.A. taught me the fallacy of that concept for this alcoholic.

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peecee


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Heard about this debate. Funny how pretty much anything flies as long as you don't revise the ateps or basic literature. They could pretty much "say" whatever in their meetings. It is weird. I've seen AA work for many athiests. Replacing "God" with the group or some other concept or principle suffices. I get both sides of the debate. Where I live nobody has a problem with "freethinker" meetings.

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Fyne Spirit


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I've probably seem AA work for many athiests too, but I can't be sure as noone makes a big deal out of being and athiest. We don't really talk about our private religious views, and no one seems to have much difficulty with the spiritual aspect of the program in anycase. The common problem with many who don't recover is still the refusal to take all or some of the steps. Trying to get by on half measures. It has nothing to do with religious belief. At least for alcoholics fo my type, who have lost the power of choice.

The term "freethinkers" really cracks me up. I've never met any, or maybe I have but they were anonymous, but I get this picture of a bunch of pompous intellectuals all sitting in a room feeling better than the rest of us because they believe their intellect is superior to faith.

Some pretty clever people tried to fix me and couldn't. I tried to fix me and couldn't. My fixed belief that the human intellect was the last word, the antithesis of free thinking, was defeating me. In the end it was a form of free thinking, freed of the old prejudices, that enabled me to open my mind to the possibility of a power greater than my self restoring me to sanity. That is the AA solution and it worked, once I had freed my thinking of old ideas.

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Pythonpappy


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Fyne Spirit wrote:

I've probably seem AA work for many athiests too, but I can't be sure as noone makes a big deal out of being and athiest. We don't really talk about our private religious views, and no one seems to have much difficulty with the spiritual aspect of the program in anycase. The common problem with many who don't recover is still the refusal to take all or some of the steps. Trying to get by on half measures. It has nothing to do with religious belief. At least for alcoholics fo my type, who have lost the power of choice.

The term "freethinkers" really cracks me up. I've never met any, or maybe I have but they were anonymous, but I get this picture of a bunch of pompous intellectuals all sitting in a room feeling better than the rest of us because they believe their intellect is superior to faith.

Some pretty clever people tried to fix me and couldn't. I tried to fix me and couldn't. My fixed belief that the human intellect was the last word, the antithesis of free thinking, was defeating me. In the end it was a form of free thinking, freed of the old prejudices, that enabled me to open my mind to the possibility of a power greater than my self restoring me to sanity. That is the AA solution and it worked, once I had freed my thinking of old ideas.

 Oh man, FS, you have an uncanny way of describing the journey I've been on too ... your observation above is so very accurate to what I've also experienced ... 

Oh, I've also come to conclusion that I too, went through a period of be'n one of those pompous intellectuals (ass's) you mentioned (No need to comment Pickle, LOL, I think I know your thoughts here, he-he) ... but with my progress over the years, I realize that 'humility' is the better part of valor(or growth) ... and that I am no smarter or intelligent than the next guy/gal ... I've only found that work'n the steps worked for me and I need to use finesse(compassion) when try'n to help others realize that this program can and will work for them too with the right attitude ... 

 

Love ya Mike and God Bless,

Pappy(Roger)



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Mr_David


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Wow, this is getting really interesting. Got my popcorn popping 0038.gif

and my game face on. thinking-idea-animated-animation-smiley-emoticon-000339-large.gifAll I need is some more dialogue. Who's next???



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