I am a religious person. What that religion is doesn't matter. In the 12 step program, God can be anything you want it to be. It's a god of your understanding. The problem here is that all the qualities ascribed to the 12-Step God only describes one God in the history of theology: the Protestant Christian God. A God that is aware of you and you can directly communicate with, and can remove your defects of character. Past the age of the patriarchs in the Old Testament, God only talked to select leaders and the clergy. With the coming of the New Testament, Christ introduced the idea of prayer as a direct communication with God. The Catholic church introduced the idea that on cannot confess sin for forgiveness except through a priest. The Protestants brought back direct communication with God for purposes of redemption. No other religion has this simple method. In many religions, the people are too small for their god to even be aware of their existence; priests, sacrifices, and offerings must be there to take notice. To believe that your Higher Power can restore you to sanity and remove you defects of character can be even harder for a person who is not atheist or agnostic but of a different religion because you're transferring the beliefs of the Protestant Christian God to the god of your understanding which may not share the same qualities. Thoughts?
First, there are plenty of beliefs about God or a Higher Power other than the 'Protestant Christian God' which do include some form of direct prayer and/or meditation. People pray and meditate all over the world, including in lots of places that have no familiarity at all with that particular faith.
Other than that, if you want to practice some kind of prayer or meditation as part of a 12 step recovery practice, why would you let dogma (that you don't agree with anyway) stop you?
From my own example, like you, I don't share the beliefs about the 'Protestant Christian God' and yet that has not prevented me from applying the principles of the 12 steps and staying sober for many years.
And other than that, of course, is the fact that AA is not the only way to recover, and if someone's beliefs really did prevent them from being able to practice the principles of AA, even in some modified form that helps make it all work for them, and they were unable to change their beliefs or just didn't feel right about doing so, they are free to find some type of recovery that DOES work for them. Although I haven't ever run into any example of that being necessary, no matter what someone's beliefs may or may not be. It's an option, if that's what will keep you sober.
I didn't say no other religion includes some form of prayer or meditation. I said that no other religion has the qualities attributed to a Higher Power which you can directly communicate with and have remove your "defects of character" as is necessary to truthfully and honestly follow the 12 Steps as they're described. Yes, you can still use the program to stay sober if you ignore these facts, or as you mentioned AA is not the only way to recover. There are other proven programs that are based on science (such as SMARTrecovery) which spirituality is not a prerequisite. You said you've never encountered such a example where this is necessary but I just gave you one. Maybe these other programs are the only solution if you are unable to accept the "dogma" in the AA program, which is sad because it contradicts the stance that AA can help anyone regardless of religious affiliation, when such affiliations may put up a roadblock to truthfully following the steps as they are. Not everyone can just set aside such beliefs.
-- Edited by Jakamo on Thursday 28th of January 2016 07:20:16 PM
-- Edited by Jakamo on Thursday 28th of January 2016 07:20:57 PM
Not to get into a theological debate, but it's simply not correct to assume that the 'protestant Christian God' is the only type of belief in a higher power which includes the idea of direct prayer and meditation with that higher power. That's what you stated in your first comment, and it's not correct.
But regardless, even if someone DOES ascribe to some belief about God that tells them that God isn't something to which they can directly pray or meditate, what's to stop them from finding some other form of prayer or meditation? I mean, if people who don't even believe in a sentient supernatural idea of God at all can still rely on things like basic spiritual principles as a form of power that is saner and healthier than alcoholic self-will, and upon which they can rely to help them apply the principles of AA and recover from alcoholism, why wouldn't someone who believes in God (but believes they can't pray to God for whatever reason) do the same?
I did not say "direct prayer and meditation with a higher power" in my first comment...or my second. I said in both posts "directly communicate with and can remove your defects of character". There's a big difference.
And, again, like I said, the reason why someone who believes in God but not one as described wouldn't do the same is because it is necessary to adopt these beliefs to truthfully and honestly following the Steps as they're described.
okay, then I'll restate it - the idea of a higher power that you can pray to directly to remove defects of character is not an exclusively 'protestant Christian God' concept. There are other belief systems that include this type of concept.
But regardless, if people who don't even believe in a sentient God at all can still work the steps (for example, by reliance on any number of OTHER ideas of a 'power' that is greater than one's alcoholic self-will), someone with a belief in a God that doesn't fit the above description can do the same, if they wish. And they often do.
AA doesn't claim to work for everyone, and there may be reasons that AA wouldn't be the solution for someone, but this isn't one of them. My own experience has shown me this.
It may surprise you that some religions don't believe in any god at all, but that is beside the point.
I would, however, like to hear what reasons in which AA claims not to be the solution for someone that has the desire to stop drinking. Anything other than a severe mental disorder?
Actually, AA says that even those who DO have "grave emotional and mental and disorders" often CAN recover - IF they have the capacity to be honest.
It also points out that being "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves" is one of the things that would prevent someone from recovering from alcoholism through AA.
I've seen examples of both of these - people who have mental disorders still being able to recover in AA, and people who can't be honest with themselves NOT being able to recover in AA.
..... and of course there can be people who CAN recover from alcoholism in AA, but for various reasons choose to find some other method to recover from alcoholism.
Ok, though being "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves" sounds like it's probably the result of some disorder. And if not should (or maybe even if it is) should be reversible through some soul-searching.
And if not should (or maybe even if it is) should be reversible through some soul-searching.
That's true. I've met several people who couldn't get sober in AA on their first attempt because, at that time, they couldn't get honest with themselves about some of the basic stuff, like the truth about whether they were an alcoholic or whether they just needed to figure out how to drink more responsibly. But then later, when they tried AA again, they were able to get honest with themselves about these types of things and fully admit to themselves that they were alcoholic and were just not the kind of person who could somehow learn to safely and predictably drink like a normal, non-alcoholic person, and this self-honesty gave them the ability to thoroughly work the first step and build a good foundation in their recovery.
I know AA worked for over 2 years in helping keep me sober. It has worked for many thousands of people to help them stay sober. Not all of these people believe in God. Didn't seem to matter--they still got and stayed sober.
I am working on other ways to stay sober without relying totally on AA, as I did get too dependent on the meetings and the people in the meetings to keep me sober. So is the AA program working in my life? I think it served as a bridge to where my faith in God was restored and He is keeping me sober today. I firmly believe now that as long as I have faith in Him and try hard to do His will in my life, I will not drink again.
We each have to find our own way to get and stay sober. AA is not for everyone. I know several people who have gotten and stayed sober for years without it. So I no longer agree to everything in the Big Book lumping all alcoholics together as hopeless and destined to drink themselves to death if we all don't do everything that is in the Big Book.
I know AA worked for over 2 years in helping keep me sober. It has worked for many thousands of people to help them stay sober. Not all of these people believe in God. Didn't seem to matter--they still got and stayed sober.
I am working on other ways to stay sober without relying totally on AA, as I did get too dependent on the meetings and the people in the meetings to keep me sober. So is the AA program working in my life? I think it served as a bridge to where my faith in God was restored and He is keeping me sober today. I firmly believe now that as long as I have faith in Him and try hard to do His will in my life, I will not drink again.
We each have to find our own way to get and stay sober. AA is not for everyone. I know several people who have gotten and stayed sober for years without it. So I no longer agree to everything in the Big Book lumping all alcoholics together as hopeless and destined to drink themselves to death if we all don't do everything that is in the BigBook.
Neither AA nor the Big Book say that successful members of AA must "do everything that is in the Big Book."
The BB is full of observations and suggestions ... it shows what a group of people can accomplish when first, they admit they need help, then work 'together' to accomplish a 'singleness of purpose' in stay'n sober ... it really is quite awesome to watch and even more so to participate in ...
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Really????? Maybe my wording was incorrect--maybe I should have said the "whole program" . Below is an excerpt from Barefoot's World. The kind of things below are what I have been hearing since being in AA as well as hearing the "half measures availed us nothing" hundreds of times. Of course, the word "suggested" is just that. And it is strongly "suggested" that if I don't follow the "whole program" than I am destined to fail and doomed to die a drunk
If you go to enough meetings, you'll hear it said that in AA, "there are no MUSTs, only suggestions". Well, like most half-truths in A.A., if you hear them long enough you begin to believe them. But what does the Program have to say about this? It says in the Big Book on page 19, "We have concluded to publish an anonymous volume setting forth the problem as we see it. We shall bring to task our combined experience and knowledge. This should suggest a useful program for anyone concerned with a drinking problem." Then, in "How It Works" it says, "Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a Program of Recovery."
So, it's the WHOLE Program that is suggested. It's sort of like making a pie. I once ate a really great pie at my Grandmother's house, and asked for the recipe. If I use the SAME ingredients, with the SAME proportions, in the SAME baking sequence, then AND ONLY THEN will I get the full, desired result. AA says that we have a way out that works very well for us.
There may be another method you might use that you think brings about recovery from alcoholism, and if you so choose, have at it.
You don't have to take the A.A. Program, only "if you want what we have AND are willing to go to any length to get it." And if you DO want what we have, the Big Book is very clear that the Program has some very definite requirements. It says, "To show other alcoholics PRECISELY HOW WE HAVE RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book" (page xiii), "If you are an alcoholic who wants to get over it, you may already be asking - What do I have to do? It is the purpose of this book to answer such questions SPECIFICALLY. We shall tell you what we have done" (page 20), and "CLEAR-CUT DIRECTIONS are given showing how we recovered" (page 29).
AA's Big Book, by it's own admission, offers us specific instructions for recovery from alcoholism called "the Program of AA". Remember, half measures DO NOT avail us half results; "half measures avail us NOTHING" (and NO measures avail us less!). The suggestion we have to offer is our WHOLE Program, and the AA Program does include MUSTs, have to's, and requirements (IF you want the full, desired result).
But remember, the process is very much worth it because just one of the promises of working AA's Program IN ITS ENTIRETY is that we will "know happiness, peace, and usefulness, in a way of life that is incredibly more wonderful as time passes" (page 8)!
Some of the phrases below don't contain the word MUST, but the wording indicates a MUST Condition..
Well, excluding the stories, here's the list:
1. Convincing testimony MUST surely come from medical men who have had experience with the sufferings of our members and have witnessed our return to health.(xxiii)
2. "Doctor, I cannot go on like this! I have everything to live for! I MUST stop, but I cannot! You MUST help me!" (xxvii)
3. Faced with this problem, if a doctor is honest with himself, he MUST sometimes feel his own inadequacy. (xxvii)
4. Though the aggregate of recoveries resulting from psychiatric effort is considerable, we physicians MUST admit we have made little impression upon the problem as a whole. (xxvii)
5. In the course of his third treatment he acquired certain ideas concerning a possible means of recovery. As part of his rehabilitation he (Bill W.) commenced to present his conceptions to other alcoholics, impressing upon them that they MUST do likewise with still others. This has become the basis of a rapidly growing fellowship of these men and their families. This man and over one hundred others appear to have recovered. (xxiii)
6. In this statement he (Dr. Silkworth) confirms what we who have suffered alcoholic torture MUST believe that the body of the alcoholic is quite as abnormal as his mind. (xxiv)
7. More often than not, it is IMPERATIVE that a man's brain be cleared before he is approached, as he has then a better chance of understanding and accepting what we have to offer. (xxiv)
8. The message which can interest and hold these alcoholic people MUST have depth and weight. In nearly all cases, their ideals MUST be grounded in a power greater than themselves if they are to re-create their lives. (xxvi)
9. I SIMPLY HAD TO believe in a Spirit of the Universe, who knew neither time nor limitation (10)
10. I MUST turn in all things to the Father of Light who presides over us all.(14)
11. Particularly was it IMPERATIVE to work with others.(14)
12. Of NECESSITY there will have to be discussion of matters medical, psychiatric, social, and religious.(19)
13. Our very lives, as ex-problem drinkers, DEPEND upon our constant thought of others and how we may help meet their needs. (19)
14. Almost none of us liked the self-searching, the leveling of our pride, the confession of shortcomings which the process REQUIRES for its successful consummation.(25)
15. There was NOTHING LEFT FOR US but to pick up the simple kit of spiritual tools laid at our Feet. (25)
16. It is only by fully disclosing ourselves and our problems that they will be persuaded to say, "Yes, I am one of them too; I MUST have this thing." (29)
17. We learned that we had to FULLY CONCEDE to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, HAS TO BE smashed. (30)
18. If we are planning to stop drinking, there MUST be no reservation of any kind, nor any lurking notion that someday we will be immune to alcohol. (33)
19. But after a while we had to face the fact that we MUST find a spiritual basis of Life - or else.(44)
20. We HAD TO find a power by which we could live, and it HAD TO BE a Power greater than ourselves. (45)
21. DO NOT let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you. (47)
22. Many of us have been so touchy that even casual reference to spiritual things made us bristle with antagonism. This sort of thinking HAD TO BE abandoned. (48)
23. We HAD TO ask ourselves why we shouldn't apply to our human problems this same readiness to change our point of view. (52)
24. When we saw others solve their problems by a simple reliance upon the Spirit of the Universe, we HAD TO stop doubting the power of God. Our ideas did not work. But the God idea did. (52)
Really????? Maybe my wording was incorrect--maybe I should have said the "whole program" . Below is an excerpt from Barefoot's World. The kind of things below are what I have been hearing since being in AA as well as hearing the "half measures availed us nothing" hundreds of times. Of course, the word "suggested" is just that. And it is strongly "suggested" that if I don't follow the "whole program" than I am destined to fail and doomed to die a drunk
There are a lot of ways to make a good pie. Mayne you like grandma's cherry pie but you really really like Dutch apple pie better.
Bill Wilson knew this. He repeatedly stayed away from telling alcoholics that anything was "mandatory." He learned this to a great extent from chafing at the various requirements at the Oxford Group. That's why:
1.there are not programmatic requirements in AA.
2. there are no penalties of any kind, at any time, for "failing" to follow the suggestions of AA.
Grandma really shouldn't get all flipped out if you leave out the cherries in your pie.
You guys have indirectly just allowed me to realize what's holding me back.
My perfectionism.
That's it. The beginning and end.
I tend to research and analyze things to death and if anything at all seems out of place, my automatic thought is that it's not for me. And if that pie is not EXACTLY like grandma made it and not perfect in every way, then it is a complete failure. Even it's still a damn good pie.
I'm working on it.
People who aren't perfectionists and never have been, they won't get it. They simply won't.
In regards to the 12 Steps themselves, in which we turn our will and lives over to God and admit out shortcomings and the exact natures of our wrongs and He removes our defects of character and He restores us to sanity and we improve our conscious contact with God (whew! how's that for six of the steps in one sentence) the perfectionist inside me is screaming "But 'what if' my Higher Power is not one that can hear my admission of shortcomings and defects of character and I can make a conscious contact with" and anything less feels like I'm not doing the steps right. And thus...failure. Like I said, I'm working on it.
And I always get the same responses from people...always...that other people in the program that were this and that and the other thing and were still able to get sober through AA and "If I can do it you can do". Sorry guys, but I absolutely f*cking despise this. It's as if they saying they were worse off than anyone else and therefore the same conditions apply. You're obviously not a perfectionist, you don't get it. I know this perception is not correct and the wrong way to go about it. We all have to do it our own way.
I now realize that its my BELIEF in this Higher Power itself that can allow ME to remove my shortcomings and defects and so on and so forth. Perhaps it's a bit more work that way, but it's how I personally have to do and the way I "must" perceive it.
-- Edited by Jakamo on Friday 29th of January 2016 04:25:03 PM
Well....personally, my favorite is the cherry pie--so if the cherries are left out, I wouldn't want any of it.
However, I do agree with everything you said Tanin, and I think you said it very well. I have heard more than once that my relapse was due to me not working the program the "right" way, or not doing the Steps "correctly.
Jakamo, thank you for your insight. I'm a "perfect" rule follower as well. I came to AA wanting to do it right and to graduate. I'm just figuring out that I can't do it like others and I likely won't graduate. My perfectionism helped fuel my drinking due to the fact that I rarely did things perfectly and that caused me quite a bit of anxiety that I thought could be numbed away with booze. Somewhere in that Big Book it talks about spiritual progress, not perfection. That's what I can hold on to. Just because I'm not getting all of it 'right' doesn't mean that I'm not making progress toward becoming a better person and learning to live sober.
Right now, I'm working on our income taxes. This is causing me a great deal of stress. Last night I almost said fuck it, I'm gonna grab some beer. But...that bit of spiritual progress I've made gave me the insight to remember that this was what I've done many times in the past and resulted in me just drinking like crazy and ended up not filing my tax return until the last minute or even later. The stress from delayed filing and or ignoring letters from the IRS just seemed to fuel my continued trips into the brown bottle and allowed me to rationalize continued drinking. So I didn't buy that beer and I'll get the taxes finished this week.
I don't know if that spiritual progress if from my Higher Power or just the fact that my brain and thoughts are clearer, but I'll take it. I don't know if it is because of prayer and HP intervening in my life or if I am just capable of making a more rational decision, but I'll take it. Whatever it is, it is working and I'll definitely take that.
Troy described what I sometimes experience when I am dealing with stress....the thought will quickly come into my mind about giving up ...going back to that relief in a bottle (or so I used to think)...then as quickly, another thought and that is "been there, done that" and I pray and/or get busy.
I have noticed when I am sitting around doing nothing but thinking too much about problems I am setting myself up for trouble. When I stay focused on work, cleaning, reading, even doing a hobby, my mind loves it! Now taxes????? Ugg! Who enjoys doing that unless they are getting a refund? Bring on the Serenity Prayer for that one. I need to do mine and keep putting it off, so I will keep in mind Troy's post when I do start on them.
My perfectionism helped fuel my drinking due to the fact that I rarely did things perfectly and that caused me quite a bit of anxiety that I thought could be numbed away with booze. Somewhere in that Big Book it talks about spiritual progress, not perfection. That's what I can hold on to. Just because I'm not getting all of it 'right' doesn't mean that I'm not making progress toward becoming a better person and learning to live sober.
Whatever it is, it is working and I'll definitely take that.
Oh man, this is me ... Excellent post Troy ... thanks ...
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Well....personally, my favorite is the cherry pie--so if the cherries are left out, I wouldn't want any of it.
However, I do agree with everything you said Tanin, and I think you said it very well. I have heard more than once that my relapse was due to me not working the program the "right" way, or not doing the Steps "correctly.
My damn relapse was due to me drinking....period.
People have differing views on the program and the steps. There is variation on how we do it and them. Always has been.
How's your new version of AA recovery going, leavetherest?
IIRC, you are coming up on 90 days sober. Is your new and improved program of recovery better than your prior one at this point?
Really????? Maybe my wording was incorrect--maybe I should have said the "whole program" . Below is an excerpt from Barefoot's World. The kind of things below are what I have been hearing since being in AA as well as hearing the "half measures availed us nothing" hundreds of times. Of course, the word "suggested" is just that. And it is strongly "suggested" that if I don't follow the "whole program" than I am destined to fail and doomed to die a drunk
There are a lot of ways to make a good pie. Mayne you like grandma's cherry pie but you really really like Dutch apple pie better.
Bill Wilson knew this. He repeatedly stayed away from telling alcoholics that anything was "mandatory." He learned this to a great extent from chafing at the various requirements at the Oxford Group. That's why:
1.there are not programmatic requirements in AA.
2. there are no penalties of any kind, at any time, for "failing" to follow the suggestions of AA.
Grandma really shouldn't get all flipped out if you leave out the cherries in your pie.
I have to disagree with you on this one Tanin. There are severe penalties, ranging from a sentence to the misery of the dry drunk, drinking and even the death sentence. The penalties are not imposed by AA, true, they come from a failure to grasp and develop this manner of living. "The spiritual life is not a theory, we have to live it".
I have to disagree with you on this one Tanin. There are severe penalties, ranging from a sentence to the misery of the dry drunk, drinking and even the death sentence. The penalties are not imposed by AA, true, they come from a failure to grasp and develop this manner of living. "The spiritual life is not a theory, we have to live it".
I don't understand. Are saying that if you don't adopt the same concept of spiritualism as characterized is AA, the Protestant Christian AA God, and follow our own, that we're doomed to failure and misery?
-- Edited by Jakamo on Wednesday 3rd of February 2016 04:10:10 PM
Jakamo, I can sympathize with your concerns, but, for now, try not to dwell on this too much. As one who has been in recovery for a while, I've met plenty of folks who are doing just fine without the protestant x-ian god as a higher power. It is perfectly fine for you to use your current belief as a basis for your recovery in sobriety. What ever works for you works for you. The longer you're making positive changes within yourself, the more you'll know this is true.
I have to disagree with you on this one Tanin. There are severe penalties, ranging from a sentence to the misery of the dry drunk, drinking and even the death sentence. The penalties are not imposed by AA, true, they come from a failure to grasp and develop this manner of living. "The spiritual life is not a theory, we have to live it".
I don't understand. Are saying that if you don't adopt the same concept of spiritualism as characterized is AA, the Protestant Christian AA God, and follow our own, that we're doomed to failure and misery?
-- Edited by Jakamo on Wednesday 3rd of February 2016 04:10:10 PM
No. Read the post again. There is a quote from the Big Book explaining that for AA recovery we have to live a spiritual life. For me that involves handing my will and my life over to the God of my personal understanding, trying to do His will for me each day, and trying to practice these principles in all my affairs. Having first taken all 12 steps and had the life changing spiritual awakening. God fixes all my problems and defects. Sprituality is well removed from CBT. Completely different things.
The main point I am making is that any person coming to AA does not have to do anything they don't want to do. No one is going to force them. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. That gets you membership, but it doesn't get you sober.
The Big Book is full of experience of those who balked on certain steps. Step 1, step 4 (the most common) Secrets kept in step 5, amends not made in step 9 and 10, lack of activity in seeking guidance in step 11, unwillingness to work with others.. failure to implement these steps, in the experience of the writers of the book, usually resulted in the offender getting drunk. That's the penalty. It is severe and self imposed, it may even be fatal.
Of course you don't have to do any of it, but as you start into the book, at the foreword to the first edition, and progress through the chapters, studying each item carefully to see how it fits with your experience, you will be able to determine if you are one of us or not. If you are, you may have to do what we did to recover. If not, maybe some other method will work.
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I admit I was a bit confused, and like I said my perfectionism was getting in the way before. I was obsessed with figuring out how to do it the RIGHT way instead of figuring out how to do it the way that's right for me.
My Higher Power may not be able to actually come down and physically remove my defects of character, but my belief in it can allow me to.
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I admit I was a bit confused, and like I said my perfectionism was getting in the way before. I was obsessed with figuring out how to do it the RIGHT way instead of figuring out how to do it the way that's right for me.
My Higher Power may not be able to actually come down and physically remove my defects of character, but my belief in it can allow me to.
Jakamo, you may get a surprise in that department. I certainly did. I became a thief who could not steal even though I tried to. It wasn't me removing the defect, I was trying to practice it!
