"Good Orderly Direction" and other problems I'm having with the program

Jakamo · Veteran Member

"Good Orderly Direction" and other problems I'm having with the program

leavetherest · MIP Old Timer

When I started AA it took me a feel times to feel comfortable about attending meetings. Although a Christian, my faith was about all gone and I got turned off by "God" and all the prayers and shares talking about this one and that one's HP. So I would go to a few meetings, get a little time under my belt without picking up a drink, then get frustrated and quit again...then I would drink again.

And after being in AA over two years and when things begin to get to me again to the point where I allowed my negative thoughts to control my actions, I relapsed. I am not saying that it is necessary for me to attend meetings every day or even a certain number of times per week. I was going to meetings every day right before my relapse. Staying sober isn't all about meeting attendance. I have attended only one meeting in over a week. According to some in AA that is asking for trouble, as I was told I HAD to attend meetings everyday --for at least 90 in 90--or I would drink again. Fact is, I am doing so much better not attending as many meetings, coming here for support, praying, reading alcoholism related literature and realizing that there is no one or nobody who can tell me what I have to do to stay sober if I don't want to stay sober.

Look at my ID name....that is my motto and it really rings true with me more than ever......I take what I want from the meetings, the AA program, and I LEAVE THE REST. And since I have that in my head now, I'm happier.

I am not the one to prove you wrong about AA. I think each one of us has to find our own way to stay sober and AA is not the only way to do that. I found that out myself the hard way.

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

Jakamo wrote:
Hi, I've been recently considering going back to AA meetings. I have went in the past after being sober for a month and it seemed to cause my relapse. Although I still feel responsible for my own actions, the constant talk of alcohol and drinking was too much to not trigger me, even when told as horror stories. I considered going to NA instead (although I don't have a 'hard drug' problem) simply because you're discouraged to talk about what drugs you did and how much you used, where in AA they do exactly that. But when other members asked me after the NA meeting what my "drug of choice" was and I said alcohol, they made me feel like an outsider, like I was just a drunk and in the wrong place.
In addition to this, my main problem is an offshoot of one I know many people have when considering AA. The God problem. I've been told that AA is welcoming to agnostics and atheists and that god can mean anything you like, most commonly "Good Orderly Direction". My problem is that doesn't always translate to the program and the steps. For example: "Make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of 'Good Orderly Direction' as we understood Him" doesn't make sense. Call me a perfectionist but how the heck is "good orderly direction" a him? With a capital H. I know one could simply change "Him" to "it" in ones mind (like "God" to "g.o.d.") but my mind doesn't work that way. I know when they say "Him" they mean Him as in God as in religion as in what the whole program is originally based upon.
Which leads me to another problem. In the 80 years since its creation, AA hasn't changed much despite new understandings about addiction by doctors and scientists. Things like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy have proven more effective, especially in the long term since once one has successfully used CBT to change ones thoughts and actions they can leave it and go on to lead productive lives, as opposed to members of AA and NA who have been clean and sober for 20-30 years but still need to regular meetings just to not relapse.
I know it sounds like I'm slamming the program or just making excuses, but in all honesty I just want to be proven wrong and given a new perspective so I am able to work the program without my mind constantly telling me it's all BS. Thank you.
-- Edited by Jakamo on Thursday 21st of January 2016 04:50:06 PM

An atheist alcoholic does not need to believe in God in order to get the gift of sobriety in AA. Sometimes non-atheist AA members make it more difficult for atheists or agnostics but there are many meetings where that is not a problem. There are even meetings focused on atheists. Try to find those meetings.

There is quite a bit of CBT in AA. You can hear it in many shares. The AA book titled Living Sober is full of CBT.

Good luck.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Welcome to MIP Jakamo, glad you found us ...

Hopefully you find some of the answers your search'n for here on the board ... I always tell my sponsees to keep an open mind ... you know? ... 'the MIND is like a parachute, it only works if it's open' ... I was more agnostic than anything else when I started AA ... BUT, as I tried and failed, many times to stay sober, I crawled back one last time will'n to try anything ... One thing my sponsor said was to act 'as if' there is a God and keep come'n to meet'ns and work the program as honestly as you can ...

Over a short period of time, I saw things happen'n, with others and with me ... By Golly we were get'n better, we were get'n better and we were sober ... so the prayers started mean'n more to me, and then something happened with the prayers, 3 people (one in AA)(in my home group) were dying, my Dad, my co-workers friends son of 14, and my AA buddy in my home group ... all over a period of a year and a half ...

My new sober self went to see my Dad ... doctors said he's lost the function of all his organs and it's only a matter of a couple days ... so I prayed, and some others prayed to ... my Dad fully recovered and the doctor was at a total loss to explain it ... long story short, that happen two more times ... each time the doctors were at a loss to explain how the heck these folks come back to life to live years longer ... The 14 y/o beat incurable cancer and is now 19 I think, the AA friend is still go'n to meet'ns, and he died twice and was brought back to life, after which his family was also told to make funeral arrangements(that was said in all three cases) ...

That was enough to convince this hard-headed S.O.B. that there was indeed a Power greater than I could possibly understand ... but I now knew, He's definitely here ... and you bet your bottom dollar, I talk to Him every day now ...

Give it a chance Jakamo, it ain't go'n to hurt you and it damn sure won't make anything worse ... drink'n WILL for sure, but if you give God a chance, He will not let you down ...

Love ya and God Bless,
Pappy

MarcLacroix · Senior Member

Hi;

I'm Marc and I am Alcoholic.
So what is it exactly that you want and/or need help with?
If you have a problem with booze then AA has the solution.

Marc

TipsyMcstagger · Senior Member

Then don't go to AA.

Nobody's holding a gun to your head.

Jakamo · Veteran Member

^^I WANT to go to AA, and recently I have been.

I've just had a lot of problems with certain aspects of it that I want to get over. To get a better perspective on it.

I've talked to many people in and out of the program about it and have gotten some answers that were helpful (and some that were not). So I thought it would be a good idea to ask on the web where I can get a broader range of viewpoints. And some of these answers have been helpful. "Leave the rest" has been a very helpful point.

I admit my initial post was pretty rambling, but to answer MarcLacroix's question: I guess the biggest thing I'd like help with (much more so than the religious aspect, I'm not "atheist") is that the constant talk of alcohol in meetings has seemed more of a trigger to me than a deterrent. I understand that alcohol is not being talked about in a positive way, quite the opposite, however this has so far been a problem. Maybe I just need to get over that sh!t on my own, but any advise is appreciated.

Thanks all!

-- Edited by Jakamo on Monday 25th of January 2016 04:53:20 PM

leavetherest · MIP Old Timer

Hi Jakamo...
I have yet to go to one meeting where there aren't shares about the negative aspects of alcohol--and surprisingly, to me at least, there have been quite a few shares where it is obvious some of these people miss drinking and aren't bashful to let others know that they do. And some of these folks have 10 and more years of sobriety. They talk about missing the taste of it, missing the "ritual", getting upset seeing others drink and they cannot. Wow! Now that is really encouraging stuff for the newcomers to hear!

The shares which benefit me the most are the changes for the better I hear about....now that is encouraging! I don't care about how much money one is making, what kind of fancy car and/or house they have in their new sober life. (Good for them, it's just that I don't care--it places "things" way on up there and "things" are not as important as being really happy and content imo.)

So..........this worked for me when I am in meetings. I have used it many times. Some folks may disagree with me --again I don't care--it WORKS FOR ME! Whenever I hear a share that veers off into a place which makes me uncomfortable and affects my serenity in any way, I close my eyes and pray. Now, before I was into praying, I just used to tune them out. I cannot remember if I closed my eyes or not. I just focused on other things until someone spoke and I felt it was something I could use to help me grow in my sobriety. There is usually something I hear in almost every meeting that helps me in some way....sometimes I hear it from only one person....sometimes a couple, etc. I didn't want to stop going to meetings altogether and like you, I was getting discouraged when I went and it was hard to go back sometimes....I did anyway because when it came right down to it, there was nothing anyone could say which would "damage" me as much as the damage I could do to myself if I didn't go when I was newer in the program. Like I said, I don't attend as many meetings. I am happy. I am content. I don't want to drink. That's the main thing and if you feel that you need to go to AA meetings to help you stay sober and live longer, than hopefully, you can learn to again, "take what you want, and leave the rest".

leavetherest · MIP Old Timer

Oh....Jakamo...That "tuning out" thingie can be quite effective when you are out of meetings as well. It is so much more effective for me rather than letting someone's words or actions cause me to feel anger, hurt and depression, which I have so often done. It is when I let what others say and do cause any disruption in my day that I know I am in dangerous mental territory. It is no longer a priority for me to be "right" or feel the need to defend myself and explain my feelings anymore to anyone. It is a very freeing feeling, too! :)

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Hey there Jakamo, ... I don't know how much sobriety you have, but I can really identify with your comment on the meet'n discussions turn'n out make'n you have a desire to drink ...

I was the type that came into AA, then I quit ... I came back in, then I quit, again ... and again, and again ... till I got so sick and tired of be'n sick and tired, I came back to stay(a few years ago now) ... the only requirement, of course, is have'n a desire to quit drink'n ...

You know, if you work the 12 steps, you lose the desire to drink no matter the circumstances, as long as you maintain your 'conscious contact' with your HP ... at that point, you can listen to all the stuff that comes up in meet;ns and not be bothered by it ... it just sounds to me like you have some work left to do before you reach that level of confidence in yourself ... I could be wrong ...

Pappy

Jakamo · Veteran Member

Thanks so much guys! You've been helpful and given me some great food for thought to chew over.

I do not have much sobriety under me. It's been less than a year since I've really been trying to quit and only a couple weeks since I've had any alcohol at all. It's been a rocky year of trying, failing, binging, going to the hospital and having a seizure from withdrawal in the ER waiting room, going to detox, brushing myself off and trying again. Other than AA I have also been using every resource at my disposal to try to help with the underlying problem that causes addiction in the first place. I've been getting counselling, reading tons of literature, meditating daily, using Cognitive Behavior Therapy (which I'm happy to recently learn does have a lot in common with AA), I've been put on a great non-addictive non-narcotic medication called baclofen that looks very promising, and going to SmartRecovery meetings (which many people use as an alternate to AA but going to both definitely can't hurt).

I do still have a lot of work left to reach a level of confidence, self esteem, and minimalize my constant anxiety (which has been diagnosed as severe). I've committed myself to sobriety fulltime, despite having to put other things in my life on hold and having to avoid certain friends and family members which could be described as "toxic". I've slipped up in my recovery many times but it's getting better. My relapses have been much shorter and I've been quicker to correct myself. It can only get even better because I'm never going back, or else I'll die. And I don't want that...not anymore.

Thanks again.

-- Edited by Jakamo on Tuesday 26th of January 2016 04:35:07 AM

leavetherest · MIP Old Timer

You remind me of myself, Jakamo, because some of the difficulties you expressed I can understand. I am not sure what is causing your anxiety, confidence, self esteem problems. I just want to share in case you are dealing with anything similar and maybe it will help you.......

I have also been a worrier most all of my life. My lack of confidence and low self-esteem have contributed to most all of my problems I have had throughout my life. And what was causing those things is because I have always felt "not good enough" and I have always had a strong need and desire to "be liked". These things caused me to be a "people pleaser" most of my life. I was unassertive, unable to stand up for myself, "said 'yes' when I wanted to say 'no'". This behavior was so ingrained in me that I didn't realize I was putting other people's needs in front of my own. I became less human, less important, a "nobody". I over apologized and said "I'm sorry" for things which I had nothing to do with because in my mind I felt "responsible" for misfortunes of others. Also, I was so desperate to be liked, I didn't make wise choices when it came to friends. I let people walk all over me, control and manipulate me, use me, treat me like crap. And I have done this most all of my life.

My relapse not so long ago came because, in my mind at that time it was what, "other people" were "doing to me". I now know--no it wasn't it was what I did to myself which caused me the biggest problem--I drank again. Again, I made other people more important than I made myself. I took very little responsibility for my own health, my own peace. I drank those things away and the reason I gave myself was because of others who had made it clear that they didn't really give a damn about me to the degree I thought they did or thought they should. I look at my relapse now as a learning experience. I feel so much stronger and determined than ever to stay sober and I am working hard never to sell myself short anymore. I am important. I am worth it.

Now, instead of feeling anxious and insecure all the time I feel love for myself. I know God loves me. As far as other people and my interactions with them go, I have a "rule"..... I do not get involved with people who seem to get off on making my life miserable, put me down in order to make themselves look more superior to me, or have the need to betray and hurt me. People like that have their own issues and I cannot change them. That is up to them and their HP. I can love them from a distance, pray for them. I don't have to choose to spend my limited time on this earth with them. I am no longer hard up for friends and someone else accepting me anymore. I accept myself and I know God accepts me for who I am. As long as I live my life trying to do the right thing and not hurt others I know in my heart that there is nothing I need to feel anxious about. As long as I continue to improve myself I'm all good. I am not inferior to anyone else on this earth. I deserve happiness and peace. I have confidence in myself that I am living my life the way I am supposed to and doing what God wants me to do. That is all that matters. I am free of worry. I am free of fear and I am free of the bondage that my mind had over me which caused most all of my problems throughout my life.

I hope something I posted helps you today.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Jakamo wrote:
Thanks so much guys! You've been helpful and given me some great food for thought to chew over.

I do not have much sobriety under me. It's been less than a year since I've really been trying to quit and only a couple weeks since I've had any alcohol at all. It's been a rocky year of trying, failing, binging, going to the hospital and having a seizure from withdrawal in the ER waiting room, going to detox, brushing myself off and trying again. Other than AA I have also been using every resource at my disposal to try to help with the underlying problem that causes addiction in the first place. I've been getting counselling, reading tons of literature, meditating daily, using Cognitive Behavior Therapy (which I'm happy to recently learn does have a lot in common with AA), I've been put on a great non-addictive non-narcotic medication called baclofen that looks very promising, and going to SmartRecovery meetings (which many people use as an alternate to AA but going to both definitely can't hurt).

I do still have a lot of work left to reach a level of confidence, self esteem, and minimalize my constant anxiety (which has been diagnosed as severe). I've committed myself to sobriety fulltime, despite having to put other things in my life on hold and having to avoid certain friends and family members which could be described as "toxic". I've slipped up in my recovery many times but it's getting better. My relapses have been much shorter and I've been quicker to correct myself. It can only get even better because I'm never going back, or else I'll die. And I don't want that...not anymore.

Thanks again.

-- Edited by Jakamo on Tuesday 26th of January 2016 04:35:07 AM

You just described the journey I went through ... Even when I failed and drank again, I continued to read the AA literature ... I desperately wanted to understand why I could not 'just not drink' ... I bought and read all the books I could get at the meet'ns and I went one step further and acquired most all the books Bill said that he read, though the local recovery book store(today is the internet) ... ... ...

I got to the point, like you, I knew I had to recover, or I was go'n to die ... and the alcoholic death is not pretty, it's painful and has a horrible effect on friends and family ... and you stated: "despite having to put other things in my life on hold and having to avoid certain friends and family members "

We soon learn that our sobriety has to come 1st in our lives, above all else, through the strength we receive through our HP ... and for this alcoholic, I only found relief and success through work'n the steps in AA and coming to believe in God, my HP ... I tried so many other ways to stop, even found a 'fruit & nut' diet that was supposed to work, and didn't ... You are wise to put your sobriety 'above all else' cause we come to know, if we don't, we'll not live long enough to learn to love life ... the 'sober' life is quite incredible, one I could not even dream of ... and it can be for anyone who puts the desire to be sober before everything else ...

Love ya and God Bless,

Pappy

Jakamo · Veteran Member

leavetherest wrote:
You remind me of myself, Jakamo, because some of the difficulties you expressed I can understand. I am not sure what is causing your anxiety, confidence, self esteem problems. I just want to share in case you are dealing with anything similar and maybe it will help you.......

I have also been a worrier most all of my life. My lack of confidence and low self-esteem have contributed to most all of my problems I have had throughout my life. And what was causing those things is because I have always felt "not good enough" and I have always had a strong need and desire to "be liked". These things caused me to be a "people pleaser" most of my life. I was unassertive, unable to stand up for myself, "said 'yes' when I wanted to say 'no'". This behavior was so ingrained in me that I didn't realize I was putting other people's needs in front of my own. I became less human, less important, a "nobody". I over apologized and said "I'm sorry" for things which I had nothing to do with because in my mind I felt "responsible" for misfortunes of others. Also, I was so desperate to be liked, I didn't make wise choices when it came to friends. I let people walk all over me, control and manipulate me, use me, treat me like crap. And I have done this most all of my life.

My relapse not so long ago came because, in my mind at that time it was what, "other people" were "doing to me". I now know--no it wasn't it was what I did to myself which caused me the biggest problem--I drank again. Again, I made other people more important than I made myself. I took very little responsibility for my own health, my own peace. I drank those things away and the reason I gave myself was because of others who had made it clear that they didn't really give a damn about me to the degree I thought they did or thought they should. I look at my relapse now as a learning experience. I feel so much stronger and determined than ever to stay sober and I am working hard never to sell myself short anymore. I am important. I am worth it.

Now, instead of feeling anxious and insecure all the time I feel love for myself. I know God loves me. As far as other people and my interactions with them go, I have a "rule"..... I do not get involved with people who seem to get off on making my life miserable, put me down in order to make themselves look more superior to me, or have the need to betray and hurt me. People like that have their own issues and I cannot change them. That is up to them and their HP. I can love them from a distance, pray for them. I don't have to choose to spend my limited time on this earth with them. I am no longer hard up for friends and someone else accepting me anymore. I accept myself and I know God accepts me for who I am. As long as I live my life trying to do the right thing and not hurt others I know in my heart that there is nothing I need to feel anxious about. As long as I continue to improve myself I'm all good. I am not inferior to anyone else on this earth. I deserve happiness and peace. I have confidence in myself that I am living my life the way I am supposed to and doing what God wants me to do. That is all that matters. I am free of worry. I am free of fear and I am free of the bondage that my mind had over me which caused most all of my problems throughout my life.

I hope something I posted helps you today.

Yes. Although our experiences may differ, I've suffered from very similar self-image issues.

My anxiety is quite severe, diagnosed as a disorder, although this is not a life sentence. I've had a lot of trauma in my life, from childhood to recent years. I grew up being constantly abused in all sorts of ways by pretty much everyone I knew. Parents, stepparents, sibling, peers. I'm only 30 and I have a very good memory so it's been hard to leave this behind, (especially when some of these people are still in my life). It's hard to tune out the constant nagging thoughts in my mind. The anger and resentment.

Though this has been a leading cause of my feeling "no good" and that it was what "other people were doing to me", I certainly have not become a "people pleaser". If anything it's made me a hermit. Untrusting of everyone around me. I always feel threatened and in danger of someone hurting me. Physically or otherwise. Even from people I know I should trust. I know these thoughts are irrational but I also know where they are rooted, and they are rooted deep. But my awareness of the cause of these factors will help me overcome them, now that I have acquired tools to help me. Without these tools and awareness, change would be pretty much impossible. People carry around these kinds of burdens for their whole lives (especially when people tell them to just "suck it up" and forget it) when it often necessary that their problems, and the underlying reason for them, need to be addressed so they can understand them, develop the tools to overcome them, and then leave them behind. Although our past is not an "excuse" for our behavior, it can explain it on some level, and being aware of this can be helpful in facilitating change.

Anyways, I'm getting better every day. I have finally found my Higher Power and I have a better understanding of my self. I can't quite say I've found inner peace yet, but I can see it from where I'm standing and I finally realize it's attainable. And it's much more beautiful than wallowing in self-pity, hate, and addiction to a poisonous toxic substance that I can't even remember the last time I actually enjoyed.

Peace and love

leavetherest · MIP Old Timer

There are good people out there. I have a handful of people in my life that I consider to be fairly good friends. I have one person in my life I totally trust, and that's my Mom. My expectations of others have been adjusted tremendously and fairly recently. My expectations in myself have increased enormously. After I relapsed almost three months ago, I lost all the trust I had in myself. Trust is something which has to be earned. I had to work hard to regain the trust I have in myself and I continue to work hard everyday to maintain it. You have been through disappointments and heartaches which take time to heal. I realized that any emotion which is not positive which I have is a form of self-abuse because I am only hurting myself. I had to learn how to love myself...as well as forgive myself. The people who hurt me in the past--I had to forgive them. That does not mean I have to forget all about it. The forgiving part is more for me than for them because the resentments and pain were not hurting them--they were hurting me. I made the choice not to invest any more of my life in all of that. I moved on.

Possibly a therapist can help you work through your pain and it would be good if you could find one someone you know has used and had good experiences with that person. I suggested on a previous post that journaling is helpful to me. Getting all that stuff out is a release. There are also books and internet sites which address how to deal with being betrayed. Your inability to trust others is because you are protecting yourself from experiencing more pain. Although you are protecting yourself by choosing not to be around others, it is not really a healthy way to live and always feeling like others are out to get you and cause either emotional or physical harm to you is extreme and can torment your soul to say the least. So you may need to take baby steps to learn how to reach the point where it is okay for you to be around others and not feel such intense anxiety and fear. It seems like you are working to help yourself overcome this and that is a great thing.

I had stuff --some of which happened to me when I was a kid-- and once I worked my Steps I had lifelong resentments which went away. I am not one of those in AA that feels like I have a part in everything bad that has happened to me. (That "idea" caused me to put off getting a sponsor and working the Steps a couple of years ago.) Sure, I was responsible for some things, which I did make amends for in those cases. The pain I had been carrying around for decades went away--the relief was enormous and life-changing.

I am glad that you are getting better and have a HP. It has been my experience that inner peace is hard--and really impossible--for me to obtain when I hold onto past hurts and fears and I do agree with everything you said in your last sentence....well put.

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

The first thing I thought was you are going to the wrong meetings. War story meetings are really only of interest to those who haven't yet found the solution. I know how to drink, I don't need to be reminded, nor do I need to be listening to a bunch of guys trying to out do each other with there stories. According to the big book, in which the AA program resides, we are supposed to be doing something more. Try and find a big book study meeting. They aint so entertaining, it's work after all, but that is where the solution can be found.

I have heard it said that AA includes many things, elements of religion, elements of psychology and medicine. One thing it includes, that the sciences don't, is the miracle. When all else has failed, AA and God come up with a solution that completely removes the desire to drink, and it does it much more quickly that CBT or any other therapy man has been able to create. There have been no advances in the scientific field that will solve a problem of the type the early AA members had, which is the same type of alcoholism I have. Once having lost the power of choice and having no effective defence against the first drink, aside from locking me up, I am beyond human aid.

I note you talk about going"to" AA. A lot of people do that and expect that going to AA is all they need to do to stay sober. It's not. The deal I bought into goes something like this "We have found a solution upon which we can all agree and join in brotherly and harmonius action. The is the great news this book carries to the alcoholic who still suffers". If you start at the beginning by getting a sponsor who has had a spiritual awakening as the result of the steps, put aside your old ideas which, by the way, are proven not to work, and Join AA, join in the brotherly and harmonius action, perhaps you will find that in fact you do belong and that the God you don't yet understand that works for the rest of us could absolutely work for you.

That's pretty much how I got started, from a place of blind faith and willingness to go to any lengths, and of course knowing there were no alternatives for me. I didn't really believe it would work, but I'm still here, continuously sober 36 years later. I started off as an agnostic but I tried to be as unconditional as I could. I was willing to believe if I experienced some proof, and I go my proof as I worked through the steps. I am not religious, yet I know there is some kind of benevolent power running the show and it looks after me very well indeed.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Very well said Mike ... very well said ... thanks for your post ....

MarcLacroix · Senior Member

Hey Jackie Baby;
I think I know what your problem with 'Good Orderly Direction' is.
It seems you do not have a program to follow.
Would you like us to give you one?

Marc

Jakamo · Veteran Member

I thought AA was the program.

If you are serious and not dicking with me :) then by all means I'm intrigued.

MarcLacroix · Senior Member

Very Well...
March 08, 2016; I will have 20 Years Sober with One WhiteChip and ZeroRelapse.
What I did can be found here: www.weekendwinnerworkshop.org/PurpleBase/Entrance.html
Oh, I don't Dick with Twits... I try to help them find a better way. :)

Marc

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Ya know? ... my experience in AA where new members come in and have a problem with the 'idea' of 'God' and go on to use 'Good Orderly Direction' as a substitute, usually, over time, begin to see how God works in other members lives, and go on to start believe'n in their own concept of God ...

When this happens, a spiritual awareness starts to make it's presence known to them and consequently they open their eyes to the possibilities for recovery greater than they had ever realized before ... it's like a parachute, a great mind doesn't work unless it's 'open' ...

Let's please keep our conversations here 'civil' so that others will be attracted to the help we offer here ...

Thanks guys and God Bless,
Pappy

Jakamo · Veteran Member

MarcLacroix wrote:
Very Well...
March 08, 2016; I will have 20 Years Sober with One WhiteChip and ZeroRelapse.
What I did can be found here: www.weekendwinnerworkshop.org/PurpleBase/Entrance.html
Oh, I don't Dick with Twits... I try to help them find a better way. :)

Marc

Thanks for that link Marc. There's loads of information there and I can really relate to your Story. There is, however, no need to insult someone at the same time you're helping them. That's unnecessary and counterproductive...but anyway, thanks for the site.

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Jakamo wrote:
I thought AA was the program.

If you are serious and not dicking with me :) then by all means I'm intrigued.

Jakamo,

A lot of people think the meetings are the program. Actually AA is made up of three elements each forming one side of an equilateral triangle. I think of it like a three legged stool. If you leave one leg out, you fall over.

The sides are Unity (the fellowship), Recovery (the program or the way out) and Service which is self explanatory.

Early in the Big Book, There Is A Solution I think, the writers state "the feeling of having shared a common peril is but one element in the powerful cement that binds us together. But that on its own would never have held us together as we are now joined." What they mean is that AA and the people in it would not have survived on the fellowship alone.

MarcLacroix · Senior Member

Well Jackie Baby;

You come on here pissing and moaning about your sad state of affairs.
You do not appear to be putting any real effort into your recovery.
One way to motivate someone is to light a fire under their Ass by ruffling their feathers a little.
But in your case a cattle prod might be better. :)

Marc

Jakamo · Veteran Member

Not putting any real effort in my recovery? Are you kidding me?

Jakamo wrote:
I've been getting counselling, reading tons of literature, meditating daily, using Cognitive Behavior Therapy (which I'm happy to recently learn does have a lot in common with AA), I've been put on a great non-addictive non-narcotic medication called baclofen that looks very promising, and going to SmartRecovery meetings (which many people use as an alternate to AA but going to both definitely can't hurt).

I've committed myself to sobriety fulltime, despite having to put other things in my life on hold and having to avoid certain friends and family members which could be described as "toxic". I've slipped up in my recovery many times but it's getting better. My relapses have been much shorter and I've been quicker to correct myself. It can only get even better because I'm never going back, or else I'll die. And I don't want that...not anymore.

Hardly no effort.

And I'm not "pissing and moaning" any more than the Story in the link you posted where you blame all your problems on your parents not loving you enough.

People like you are the reason others leave this board.

-- Edited by Jakamo on Friday 5th of February 2016 08:38:43 PM

MarcLacroix · Senior Member

Do you really want to escalate this and raise your anxiety levels?
Be careful with baclofen... It is addictive.

Marc

Jakamo · Veteran Member

No I don't want to escalate this. That's why I thanked you despite your insults and merely pointed out that the flaming was unnecessary. For some reason that meant to you that you should insult me further when I had never done so to you before this. We all have our own problems and you've done your own share of "pissing and moaning" as you would say. I don't know if people tried to discredited you when you did this, but it doesn't mean you should do the same, and "lighting a fire under someone's ass" and intentionally "raising their anxiety levels" is not the best way to motivate someone. Unless you're just trolling.

You claimed that I was not putting effort into my recovery; this is incorrect. I've been dedicating my life to it full-time. So I re-posted a list of a bunch of things I've been doing in case you missed it the first time or just ignored it when coming to your inaccurate conclusion.

-- Edited by Jakamo on Friday 5th of February 2016 10:41:43 PM

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Jakamo, do you think you might be responding to the wrong posts?

Jakamo · Veteran Member

Yes I have, and from here on out I pledge to no longer contribute to the indulgence of an obvious troll.

I apologize if I seem to have ignored those who have spent the time to write out long thoughtful posts. Your help is heeded and greatly appreciated and I thank you. Your posts Fyne Spirit are particularly well thought out and convey an intelligent understanding.

Perhaps I am going to the wrong meetings (with war stories) but I live in relatively small city with limited options meeting-wise, but I believe there is a Big Book study group here and will seek it out. Thanks again.

-- Edited by Jakamo on Saturday 6th of February 2016 05:15:35 AM

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

I always loved the BB study meet'ns ... good break from the 'war stories' meet'ns ...

MarcLacroix · Senior Member

Jakamo wrote:
I thought AA was the program.

If you are serious and not dicking with me :) then by all means I'm intrigued.

AA is not the program. Here is what AA is and What AA Does.

*** The AA Preamble ***

Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any other causes.Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

GoingtoTry · Member

"Well Jackie Baby;

You come on here pissing and moaning about your sad state of affairs.
You do not appear to be putting any real effort into your recovery.
One way to motivate someone is to light a fire under their Ass by ruffling their feathers a little.
But in your case a cattle prod might be better. :)

Marc"

__________________________________________________________________________

I can appreciate Jakamo's questions and insights.

Marc, you need to lighten up with insulting and judgemental banter.

There is no peace and acceptance in your words.Only condescension and arrogance.

MarcLacroix · Senior Member

There is no Jakamo. This Forum is long dead and Moderators create BullShit Aliases to mess with people.

GoingtoTry · Member

Really Marc? Are the moderators not actually in AA? You're telling me Jakamo doesn't actually exist and all of the posts associated with the individual are there to screw with people? If that is the case, how can anyone take this forum seriously? Are you a moderator?

davep12and12 · MIP Old Timer

Well that's disappointing. I was SURE that I really existed. Darn it. So I guess I should probably at least cancel my cable, huh?

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Marc, ... you do really need to lighten up if you wish others to take you seriously ... there is no good reason to abuse the privilege we have to serve and help other alcoholics here by the kind of thoughts you express in your posts ... please give that attitude a rest ...

Love your post Dave, 1st laugh I've had today ... thanks ...

MarcLacroix · Senior Member

It is difficult to practice Patience and Tolerance while being repeatedly provoked. :)

Marc

Jakamo · Veteran Member

I am very much real (or so I think I am, but let's not go into existential questions).

If you do practice patience and tolerance, and not repeatedly provoke others, you are much less likely to be provoked in return.

Peace and love to all
(yes, even you. In fact, especially you. You may need it most of all.)

:) :) :)