Hey people- I'm TLH- I was here ten years back. I've been out for 7 years, and now need some help to get back into the rooms. I'm agnostic, which makes it hard for me. I live in Honolulu. I need someone to help me get back in. Any help would be appreciated. Miss you all. Take care- T.
Heya, TLH. Welcome back. Just saw some of your posts in the AA & religion thread. Wondered where you've been.
You're willing to come back, that's a great start. I suggest you get to a meeting ASAP. Go to one in your area. Or go to a meeting online. There are 4 AA meetings a day at:
http://aaonline.net
Post again and tell us how you're doing. Don't worry too much about being agnostic. Anyone can enter AA recovery and be successful. Believing in God is not a requirement.
-- Edited by Tanin on Monday 12th of October 2015 07:04:16 AM
Glad to see you made it back ... I'm not go'n to ask how the trip was, cause I'm pretty sure I know ... We have a Hawaiian here on board, Jerry F ... he's an old-timer (sorry Jerry, `aka`aka), You might find it rewarding to hookup with him later on ... (we have a PM, Private Message board here that helps from time to time .... and Jerry would be a great one to talk with, being from the same area) ...
I hope you're serious about coming back, if so, we're here to help any way we can ... I see Pickle has already given you some good stuff ... Let's get started ... Just don't drink TODAY and GO TO A MEETING ...
Love ya and God Bless, (I know, I know, but Akua loves you even if you don't believe He's there ...) Pappy
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Hey... I'm glad you came back. Read all your posts but long after you stopped posting. Love blues music... thought from your profile picture maybe we had that in common. Looking for the similarities :)
Glad you're back...keep posting. Every day for 90 days worked for me. Xxxxhugsxxx
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
No offense, but I went to the twelve coconuts meetings for years- back when I first moved to Oahu from Big Island- it was seriously full of Jesus like a Southern Baptist ministry. That is the one thing that keeps me out of the rooms. The Hawaii intergroup has a serious problem with separating their religion from their sobriety. It is driving people out of the rooms.
As you know, the success we have in beating King Alcohol is based on our coming to believe in a higher power ... and that can be any entity you chose as long as it ain't you ... SO if they talk of God or Akua in the meetings, so what, it doesn't mean you have to adopt their 'higher power', it only means you need to find one of your own choosing ...
The AA meetings and Twelve Steps won't work if you have no 'Power Greater Than You' to believe in ... Like in 'Star Wars', there is power in both Good and Evil (the Force and the Empire) ... that story is based on this one fact ... and everyone on this earth has the freedom to choose their own belief and follow that belief to whatever end they chose to journey to ... I choose to believe in God who represents everything Good in this world ...
I hope you chose to remain sober and with that goal in mind, I hope you'll continue to go to meetings even if you have to listen to the Bible thumpers, LOL ... of which I am one ... sorry ... but it's what I feel deep down in my heart is the best way to live life there is ...
Love ya man and God Bless, Pappy
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
that meeting you describe sounds a bit off the wall to me. It would have kept me out for sure. But our meetings in NZ are nothing like that, yet the God idea kept me out just the same. I am not sure why, ignorance and prejudice spring to mind as obvious causes, and stupidity would be up there too. I was willing to die rather than open my mind to any spiritual concepts. That wasn't very bright of me was it? But we have a saying, "If God drives them out, the drink will drive them back" and that's what happened to me.
I came back desperate, with no feeling for a god of any kind, but I had realised that if I wanted the spiritual recovery that AA has to offer (I saw it in the older members) then I had to find some kind of power that made sense to me. I used the steps to do that. Steps first, belief later. When I chose the AA path sincerely, I was chosing the spiritual path. I was asked in step two if I was willing to believe that the same power that helped those other folks could possibly help me too. What did I have to lose? I didn't believe, but I was willing to believe if I found some evidence. The evidence was revealed thrugh the steps.
Now of course if I had sat there and said I am not even willing to believe, then maybe the spiritual path was not the right one for me. Perhaps some other method would be better. AA is very careful to draw a distiction between a religious god and each individual's personal idea of a god or higher power. There is no prescribed version, you chose whatever makes sense to you at the time. The book frequently refers to God but it means your own interpretation of the word. So, contrary to an earlier post, the program is all about finding that god. And the big book promises"you can recover regardless of anything, the only condition being to trust god and clean house". It was when I cleaned house that I began to get somewhere with the god thing.
I went to a meeting a good while back and the chair of the meeting told everyone that it didn't matter if they stayed sober or not, that if they didn't believe in God, they were going to burn in Hell anyway.
I believe in God and that turned me off big time. I cannot imagine how if affects others who don't believe like I do. I don't care to hear sermons of the Mount Ego when I go to meetings. I can go to church for that and I know of several people that quit AA because of the reasons you described.
I have to have serious filters sometimes in meetings. I can tune out anyone I want to if they start this..."you have to do this, believe this, etc." I don't have to listen to anyone who feels it is their mission to convert others and tries to tell them what they should believe in. It is up to the individual. I go to meetings to hear people tell me how they stay sober, not to hear quotes from the Bible and hear that if I still want to drink, it is because I don't have enough faith in God or my faith is lacking in some way.
I also don't care to go to meetings and hear people tell me I am an idiot because I believe in God. I was married for years to an atheist, and in a relationship for years with another. I thought I could "change" both of them. I tried every trick in the book to convince them that my beliefs were better than theirs. Didn't work. All it caused was a lot of fights which took up a lot of time and accomplished nothing. Since I got into AA I have changed and I learned to respect the right of each person to choose what or Who they want to believe in. That is in the rooms. When it comes to my personal life, I can choose not to get seriously involved with atheists in the future.
-- Edited by hopefulone on Friday 6th of November 2015 08:33:39 AM
I just wanted to clarify one thing here ... I keep my religious beliefs to myself in the rooms, but I do profess God as my 'higher power' ... I do not believe the rooms are for teaching the works of Jesus or any other religious figure, that is for those that make that their living ... the rooms are basically a good place to help others with their 'spiritual progress' ... and that is needed in order to stay sober and go on to learn to live a good life ...
I do not insist that one needs to believe as I do, only that having a 'higher power' is paramount to their recovery ... My higher power worked for me ...
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
"if they didn't believe in God, they were going to burn in Hell anyway."
That is strong stuff. I would like to think if anyone, but especially the chair of an AA meeting ( a trusted servant) said that, I would have the courage to ask "Where does it say that in the Big Book?" We have but one purpose, to carry the AA message of recovery to the alcoholic who still suffers. Trying to scare people into believing in a particular God is not the AA message.
I use the word God a lot in my sharing and posts because I can't think of a better word to describe what I mean. I make no claims to follow any particular religion, yet folks often think I must be a bible basher because my experience has been that some kind of higher power is essential in spiritutal recovery and, quite often, the willingness to believe that only comes from total defeat.
Yet something I don't understand is when someone (very rarely), starts on about Jesus, my hackles go up. It really annoys me. Jesus, not god or higher power or some other AA construct, just Jesus. I don't know why I react that way. I should have more tolerance, and I do have outside the rooms. No doubt the reason will be revealed.
I stopped going to a meeting for a while because there was a huge confrontation during the meeting as well as afterwards when someone brought up Jesus in a meeting. I believe in Jesus and I too have shared that my HP is God. I didn't at first because I didn't want to upset anyone who doesn't. Then I realized that if people can get in the meeting and share that they have no belief, or their HP is their Aunt Matilda (fictional name) or someone or something else, then I certainly should be able to say I believe in God and not feel ashamed or embarrassed. I just don't use the meetings as a platform to try and convert others.
This reminded me of something......Years ago, I had some folks who go around door-to-door who do try and convert others. I know what religion they are, however, will not post it here out of respect. Anyway, one day, they knocked on my door and wanted to "visit". Well, me being "nice" let them come into my house. They went on and on and it was clear that me being a Methodist, then changed to a Baptist, then briefly to a Pentacostal Holiness (can't even spell it now), back to a Methodist, that their beliefs were so different than mine and I really didn't want what they had. I had a hard time telling them "I've had enough" so they were there a long time, telling me that only a specific number of people could get into Heaven and if I wanted to be one of these 1,0000-something people I better repent and change my ways. Anyway, I thought, well, if that is true there ain't no way my believing, yet sinning, sorry ass is going to get there--no way in H***. They told me I had to have a Bible and held out one of their small paperback ones for me, not asking--just assuming I didn't own one. I said, "Oh, I own a Bible, just a minute...." and I ran upstairs and got my coffee table huge Bible my grandma had given my husband and me when we got married. (It happened to be re-gifted, which my Grandma did all the time...LOL...that's fine, I got some great re-gifted items from my Grandma, and she even forgot to take the gift tag off of some when they were given to her, so I knew not to re-gift them back to the original giver. Ha!) Well, this Bible is one of the biggest Bibles I have ever seen. It has everything in it--even color pics! I just walked in with it and the expressions on their faces was priceless. I thanked them for coming and said "Have a great day". They left. (Shame I didn't and still don't open that Bible much.)
Since being a part of AA, I have always tried to tell myself to have love and tolerance for others and their beliefs and that they certainly right to share their thoughts. One meeting really got to me, though, and that was the one where the person brought up Jesus and got into "if you don't believe, etc...." Then one person did challenge him. So the meeting became very confrontational with their too-long, ego-driven shares, with each trying to prove the other one wrong. They got louder and louder and very nasty things were said about the other's beliefs. The Chair said nothing. (Maybe out of fear?) After the meeting, there was yelling between the two of them. I thought someone was going to end up having to call the police. I was cleaning the coffee pot in another part of the meeting place and could hear them. I was actually fearful to go back and didn't for almost a year.
This is the kind of thing which would make a newcomer walk in and walk out and possibly never come back to a meeting again. I know if that had happened at my first or one of my first meetings, I sure wouldn't get a very good impression of AA and it may have kept me from going back.
This is the kind of thing which would make a newcomer walk in and walk out and possibly never come back to a meeting again. I know if that had happened at my first or one of my first meetings, I sure wouldn't get a very good impression of AA and it may have kept me from going back.
Great post H1.
I was thinking I have seen a number of confrontations in meetings on other matters, but none (yet) on religious issues. There was a situation in the late eighties where NA and OA had not quite formed and their members were using AA. There was a particularly agressive addict with an inflated sense of entitlement that literally terrorised the meetings. I saw more than one newcomer all but run out the door, and I left myself for several years.
Another was the aftermath of a boy meets girl on AA campus relationship that went wrong. The guy was very unwell mentally. He behaved in threateneing ways towards women in the group and one night all the women walked out of the meeting.
Yet another was some private issue between two individuals when one chose to verbally attack the other in a meeting. We were all stunned. I had never seen anything like it.
But your main point H1 was what about the newcomer, how will this affect them? I suggest it will affect them more and do more harm today than it would have done in the past because today we tend to use meetings as 12 step calls. For many newcomers, turning up at an AA meeting is their first contact with AA, and it is a pretty random affair as to what they will strike.
The solution is the old I fashioned 12 step call. I already had four hours with a 12 stepper, learning about the disease and the AA solution, before I ever went to a meeting. Then for the next few weeks my 12 stepper stuck with me, taking me to meetings, answering my questions, and introducing me to folks with good recovery. I am pretty sure he made sure I didn't get taken to any off the wall meetings until I had a bit of a grounding in AA.
By using meetings as 12 step calls, we give all kinds of wrong impressions to newcomers, and we teach them bad habits too. It is our fault, not the newcomers.
I think of one particular fellowwho was around for about 6 or 7 years (dry drunk you might say) He was a notorious dumper and complainer, he was pushy and never took any notice of the chair or others in the meeting. I asked him about his introdution to AA. This is what he told me.
He rang the AA hotline. No one was available to come and see (12 step) him, so it was suggested that he go to a meeting near his home. This he did. It turned out to be a fairly sick meeting. He arrived and was totally ignored. He found a seat and watched proceedings. The meeting opened and someone was asked to share. Before they got started someone else demanded to be heard instead and complained for ten minutes about a relationship that had gone wrong. Then someone else pushed their way forward and had a rave about her problems. Then a man with thirty years got up demanding respect and talked about the fact that he had got married the week previously and his wife had kicked him out already. There was nothing for the newcomer, no mention of a program, just a lunatics in charge of the asylum approach to group therapy without a therapist.
After the meeting, he was ignored again, so he left. He came back the next wek because his doctor had told him he would need to be a regular attender. This time, he knew how AA worked. As soon as the meeting started, he pushed his way to the front and demanded to be heard. then he complained about all his problems..... He did exactly what we taught him to do.
I really do believe the only sure way of protecting the newcomer from these random events is to 12 step them properly and provide good sponsorship to help them along. Relying on meetings to perfom that function is pure folly.
Oh my goodness, Fyne Spirit! You have certainly seen quite a bit of that kind of thing in the meetings, too. I think what you said about protecting the newcomer is excellent!!
I remember getting in between two men, both with long term sobriety, who got into it during a meeting and all because one shared during the time which was reserved for the newcomer and the other one called him on it--during the meeting--so actually, the one who called him on it was sharing during that reserved time as well. It got really ugly after the meeting broke up. I was walking beside one of them who was telling me who I couldn't have a male sponsor. (He had tried to convince me this was not appropriate in AA before that night.) Then the other one came up to us and started in again (while we were still in the church). The man beside me stepped away from me, facing the man, and they were yelling at each other and pointing--touching each other in the chest--and it was escalating, then one yelled "do you want to take this outside?" (Not to talk calmly .....). We had men standing all around, some grinning at them. Not one of them tried to intervene. It was like we were back in grade school and some kids would get all excited and go around telling other kids that there was going to be a fight after school in old lady Wilson's yard across the street from the school. (And Mrs. Wilson although home-bound either never saw nor didn't care about her yard being used for all the dozens of physical brawls in her yard over the years.) Anyway, I hate fights! I didn't even think about the possibility of one of them pushing me, or getting in the path of a flailing fist--I stepped in between the two men, neither of them were young men--mid-60's or 70's range, and I told them to please calm down, I didn't want either one of them to get hurt and end up in jail. I also said, "What kind of example are you setting for newcomers?" One of them backed up from the other one, grumbled something under his breath and walked out.
I had only four or five months of sobriety myself when this happened. Shaken, I called my sponsor afterwards, asking him if what I did was "appropriate". I was embarrassed for myself. I felt like some of the members, particularly some of the men present who witnessed this and didn't step in to help, thought I busted up a potential "good fight". I was also worried about embarrassing these two hotheads because they were the ones who had been in the program for years and years. My sponsor told me since no one else was trying to stop them, yes, it was alright, and that it was a good thing I didn't get hurt. Both of these men apologized to me within a week. I didn't expect any apology "to me". I think it would have been nice, however, for them to apologize not only to one another, also at the next meeting where that occurred. There were so many people there that night. I wondered if some who saw that didn't come back. It did frighten me, however, didn't keep me away from that particular meeting. I either turned into a bigger chicken and/or got actually less tolerant of obnoxious shares and confrontations at meeting because I won't go back to meetings where the air is filled with that kind of hostility and ridiculous dry drunk(s) behavior. And I will no longer play referee in that manner to anyone in the rooms. I ain't risking my neck anymore. I am too busy trying to save it from my own "noose" these days.
