I've been in the rooms for a few months now, and back in after a recent relapse. The 2nd time around has challenged me more than I had anticipated. When a meeting starts some start with the serenity prayer, which starts with the word GOD, they read the AA Preamble (which mentions in a nutshell its a fellowship of Alcoholics that help other alcoholics). Then comes the "How it Works" I have an issue with the how it works part. Near the end, before the 12 steps, I quote from this "But there is One who has all power--that One is God. May you find Him now!"
I've begun to question my own spirtuality, and agree that there is a power in the rooms, and that power is other alcoholics, some like you, some worse and some better... its the fellowship of men and women that has helped me acheive sobriety. After my relapse I started over with a new sponser, and started over with the steps, and I am stuck at step 3 (step 2 is tough for me too) which states "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him". I don't want to, for the sake of just doing the steps, pick something random as a higher power. I grew up in a house that was Atheist, and as I move around from meetings to other meetings in my area, some talk of God and others talk of a Higher power. It seems to always come back to God specifically.
Im just trying to seek some answers of how to successfully work the program, I want absolute sobriety, I want to work everything 100% honestly, I believe that is the only way to be. If anyone has any opinions to this post I will read them without judgment, I appreciate all views, so don't hold anything back.
When discussing the topic of God or Spirituality, I usually like referring to the second step principle for Help. Here is the actual principle: "Humility and an open mind can lead us to faith and every AA meeting is a reassurance that God can restore us to sanity if we rightly relate ourselves to him".
(Excerpt from the 12&12)
The reason why I refer to the second step principle and not the third has something to do with wording that's all. Again, it says and I quote "Humility and an open mind can lead us to faith". Faith is spoken here in general terms and can comprise many facets and sects, including atheism and agnosticism. As Bill W. states so eloquently, "We simply suggest that the newcomer take an easy stance and an open mind; that he proceeds to practice those parts of the Twelve Steps that anyone's common sense would readily recommend". I have to agree.
I have many friends in AA who come from different backgrounds and different beliefs. I respect their decisions to purse whatever spiritual avenue they choose. Some of these friends are profound atheists who claim no affiliation at all. They use the collective knowledge found in the rooms of AA as the God of their understanding. There are others, also, who worship idols and demigods and those too who confess a more natural holistic approach to faith. There are others -Like myself - who found comfort and peace under the loving arms of a savior called Jesus Christ. Again, we emphasis spiritual renewal and not religious doctrine. When we establish a clear connection between recovery, the A.A. program and of course our fellows -whether it's spiritually based or not, we'll have a greater chance at long term sobriety. I hope you agree.
-- Edited by Mr_David on Friday 14th of November 2014 04:09:32 PM
Vulure,, don't let the word God scare you. It's meant to be taken in the literal sense. It's a God of your understanding. It's not referring to anything in the biblical sense. AA is not a religious program it's a spiritual one. I've met a few atheist who have hit this wall and all came out on the othersde. If a group of drunks works for you use it for now. Spirituality evolves and is ever changing you could maybe come to believe the cosmos is a power greater than yourself some people just choose to call it God that's all to put a name on it so it's more personal I guees. The program doesn't ask you to believe anything. The 2nd step is exactly as it reads "came to believe" meaning it doesn't 100% happen over night. It's a gradual process take it in piece meal. Step 3 requires you to make a decision to stop running your own life because your way of living doesn't work. If it did u would not need AA and be happy sober and free. Does it mean we gave up 100% immediately, ah no. We take it in peace meal and make spiritual progress that's all. Step 1 is the only step you have to do 100%. The other steps esp 2&3 are asking you to surrender. Relieve me from the bondage of self until that happens I did not know peace because I was always struggling fighting it still scared and trying to control certain aspects of my life. These steps are humbling and ego deflating. Your doing the right thing by asking questions and keep a open mind. When u go to your meeting pose the question of the struggle you will find someone who went through what your experiencing. I do know this people who can not or will not give themsves to this program their chances of staying sober or achieving sobriety are less than average. The rest of the steps are all spiritual in nature also. If you can't believe then believe that we believe. Pray whether u believe or not it will come with time. Also reach out to your sponser the BB and there is a book called "came to believe" there are several AA stories in there just like yours struggling with the same issue and how they came to Believe as a atheist. It's AA approved literature. Hope this helps. Lack of will power was not our delema but lack of a Higher Power (Hi Ya Pow Wah as we say it up here). Drinking caused a lack of spiritual values that's true of all of us. Keep coming back.
I've been sober for many years now and have successfully applied all of the 12 steps to my life without being required to develop a belief in God in the form of a 'supernatural deity'.
There are MANY ways to approach this particular issue in AA. As it says in the literature, the hoop we have to jump through is much bigger than we first thought.
Not that my story is any more 'right' than any other story in AA, but in case it helps you, here's how this issue worked out for me: I could easily see that there were some basic 'spiritual principles' at work in AA (and in lots of other places too) like Honesty, Open-mindedness, Willingness, Patience, Empathy, Compassion, etc. And these were readily visible in the ACTIONS of people who were doing the right things, ending their destructive and self-destructive behaviors, and helping others to do the same. And these spiritual principles alone were clearly examples of powers greater than my own alcoholic self-will, since I could use them and rely on them to get sober and stay sober and live a better, saner, healthier life. This power was not the alcoholics in the meetings themselves, but it was something that could come FROM them, or THROUGH them, in their actions, when they applied these principles to their actions.
Now, is there some invisible supernatural deity that is responsible for all of these 'spiritual principles' that I find in the actions of the people in AA, that have helped me in my recovery? I don't know. I don't need to know. It doesn't change the fact that those spiritual principles can WORK for me. AA is not a theology class and the 12 steps don't say "we figured out exactly what God is". I could just recognize that spiritual principles were a higher power all by themselves and leave it at that.
The idea in steps 2 and 3 is to find something that is better, saner, healthier than our own knee-jerk self-centered self-destructive alcoholic thinking to direct our actions and reactions. That can be something that we see happening with our own eyes when people are putting those basic 'spiritual principles' into action. It can be a LOT of things. Don't let the specific terminology trip you up.
And even though I sometimes feel that it's hard to know exactly what 'God's will' is for me, I sure do know exactly what that old alcoholic SELF-will feels like. And if all I can do some days is think of "God's will" as "anything that is better than that old alcoholic SELF-will", that's still more than enough. I hope this helps.
Great posts as follow-ups too ... can't add much other than after being in AA awhile, one day I got into my car to go to a meeting, and this God I never knew got in and sat beside me ... I mean something hit me at that moment and I'll never forget it ... I suddenly stopped fighting anything or anybody, I simply finished working the steps ...
Take Care,
Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Yes - there is hope - and proof. Welcome ....Yes a duplication and then that is what our recovery is; a duplication of all of what has been given to us after first walking thru the doors of recovery. My first Higher Power (by suggestion) was a door knob and more specifically the one on the door that let me into the meeting. Won't share who or what my HP is today with you. You're going to have to keep coming back to hear that one and by that time you may already have one of your - own understanding.
Each step also promotes a spiritual principle that is a power greater than yourself. Hope, faith, brotherly love, courage, honesty.... All of these are principles that go with working the steps. So believing in the spiritual process and the process of healing/recovery is also believing in God/Higher Power.
My recovery started going better when I focused more what positive things I DID believe in. I was a cynic and a miserable person that had to drink to tolerate life prior to recovery. I didn't know when I came into AA that faith is a necessary coping skill. I have to have faith in something because without it, I will try and control outcomes myself, the world will look dismal to me, and I will be in a constant state of anxiety and negativity.
Being able to search for what you DO believe in is a precious gift not to be wasted. Don't waste time pondering what your DONT believe in. What's the point? What DO you believe in? Do you believe a flower will bloom if you put it in the sunlight, feed and water it appropriately? Well, that is a higher power that has nothing to do with you also and you will also flourish and bloom if you tend you your spirit in the same manner.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
I was reading Step 5 in The 12 & 12 this morning and the last page addresses the issue of atheism/agnostic quite well.
I realized that I hadn't "believed" in the past because I hadn't experienced the presence and love of God before ........
I had to submit and surrender myself (my pride & prejudice) to the program and personally experience The Promises begin to come true to "come to believe".
The love and presence of God became an undeniable fact in my life and I began to change... willingly, not reluctantly.
When I began to sense God, the program changed from a penalty I had to pay for being alcoholic to being a God given opportunity to have a new life.
The meetings became much more attractive as I realized that God worked through people.
I appreciate your post and I can understand your point. Although it was not an issue for me to "believe in a power greater than myself alone", it can be an initial obstacle for some. My first AA meeting was under three years ago, so I am no expert old timer! But, perhaps a perspective from another AA friend can help! I think of two main points with this issue:
1. There is something, some being, physical or non-physical in nature, some force or energy that created us and the universe we live in. It is probably easy to recognize this "It" is not us. And this "It" is certainly beyond normal human awareness, understanding or power.
2. I do not think we can fully "believe" or really know, or understand this power greater than ourselves with the mind. This is something non-physical (spiritual/from spirit)and beyond what the mind alone can fully understand. The mind can identify only through the five physical senses. Getting to know this "power greater than ourselves" comes from direct experience. It will probably never be fully understood with the mind alone. Ironically, I heard a share just yesterday about this. A man said that he struggled with step 2 at first, but that his sponsor helped him to only have hope that there could be a power greater than him alone; to at least acknowledge it a possibility. This apparently did it for him. He said he still did not really know this for sure, for how could he until he started to actually directly experience this (which happens in time from the practice of the steps)? But, he was not resisting that it is possible that there is. He said this was all he needed to be able to successfully go further in the steps.
Lastly, as a result of practicing the steps, I realized that this connection to a higher power, whether called God, Spirit, Higher-Self, Soul, Love Energy, Life Energy, Creative Intelligence, etc. has to be cultivated. AA's 12 steps is an astonishingly simple, systematic method that teaches exactly how to do this! Needless to say, I am a huge advocate of the steps. They not only got me to achieving emotional sobriety and true freedom from the obsession to drink, but they changed my entire life! The steps getting us comfortably and happily sober is only the beginning! :)
Best wishes!
Connie
-- Edited by Connie F on Monday 17th of November 2014 11:56:09 AM
-- Edited by Connie F on Monday 17th of November 2014 12:03:47 PM
-- Edited by Connie F on Monday 17th of November 2014 12:07:26 PM
I think there is a difference between staying sober and sobriety. Sober just means you don't drink, plain and simple. I know plenty of people who are sober and have nothing I want. There is more than one way to stay sober which is true. But I know myself I want a different way of life that is called sobriety. That's the beauty of having free will to make your own choice. AA doesn't ask you to believe anything. If you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it then you are ready to take certain steps. But it's still your choice. I know for myself there is more to life than just staying sober. The 12 steps for me teach me how to live life on its terms. I'm sure there are other ways, but they all I'm sure focus on cleaning house regarding your past and changing attitudes or beliefs. I can think back when I told my sponsor it's just a suggestion though and he replied so isn't using a parachute to jump out of a plane but just a suggestion your choice. Remember alcohol is but a symptom to a much larger underlying problem. I like to think of my recovery as a work in progress. Kind of like a ugly cattipillar who spins a cocoon then goes through metamorphosis and emerges into a beautiful butterfly.
Rick,
I agree 100%. I to take Meds and leave that up to my Dr. and I. I also learned when you have a divorce see a divorce attorney or if you have a legal problem, if you have a relationship problem see a marriage counselor, etc. But don't take the advice of another drunk unless its a alcohol problem it was told me. I learned some hard lessons early on in sobriety. Now I don't let some of the controlling character defects of some of the old timers. I set boundaries. If you stayed sober today its a miracle because its foreign to our nature and a unnatural act for a alcoholic to stay quit. I hope it just keeps getting better and I never stop reflecting inward so I can improve my conscious contact with God so I can be of help to others.
