Christmas is tomorrow and I was just curious about this....
Most of the AA meetings I attend are held in churches. We say at least one of the following and a lot of times two of these at each of the meetings I have attended: "The Lord's Prayer", "The Third Step Prayer" and "The Serenity Prayer". The Big Book is filled with "God" as are other AA publications I have read. At the Step meeting I attend, we read from the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions book and "God" is repeated over and over again. I have researched AA's founding/early history and learned that alot of what is in the Big Book is based on spiritual principals. My question is why have I seen/heard so much intolerance for others' beliefs and Who they have chosen for their Higher Power?
I have listened to sharers and speakers at meetings explain their atheism without any responses or remarks from other members. I have heard inanimate objects used as others' HP. I was pretty sure I knew the definition of "inanimate" but looked it up anyway and it means "lacking life/spirit/movement/consciousness". It is confusing for me to hear an oldtimer or other sharer explain to me and other newcomers that AA is a spiritual program and hear them say that their HP can be a doorknob, if desired. How in the heck do you pray to a doorknob? What kind of spiritual awakening can one have when they are giving a piece of wood created by man that much power and how can that be enough that is needed to help keep them sober? It was hard enough for me to regain even the smallest amount of faith back in my life to start believing in God again so that I could pray to Him. But I got it and it carries me through each day. In meetings I have attended as well as boards I have listened to people sharing intimate details, (sometimes way too much information than I cared to hear) about their life without anyone seeming to be bothered by it. In meetings, I have heard language coming out of mouths that would make a sailor blush including the "F" word. At some churches the Chair has requested at the beginning of meetings that members refrain from using profanity, however, some either didn't hear or don't care and let the words fly, not giving thought to who might be offended by them and without correction by the Chair. However, let someone share a little bit too much about their belief in God and for Heaven's sake, don't let anyone use the "J" word or quote a Bible verse that one has found as helpful in their sobriety or all He** is going to break loose. I mean we are in a church, saying these prayers, reading literature where the "G" word is used over and over again in our Steps, in the BB, etc. and it is just so confusing to me when I share that I have to try and refrain from using "God" and use "Higher Power" instead to keep anyone from getting their sober feathers ruffled. I brought this up in private to an AA member and it was explained to me that in AA that although it is a spiritual program we cannot suggest to others who they choose for their Higher Power as it is up to each individual to choose their own and members are discouraged from bringing up their beliefs in God as it might make newcomers think that they had to believe in Him to be successful in the program. (But I guess it is "alright" to believe in chunks of wood?????)
Anyway, not trying to be the AA street cleaner, but just have been confused about this for a long time and I wonder how many people have left AA because they were expected to respect others non-religious beliefs when they felt like their own religious belief was not being respected.
Hi BTY. You should be safe saying "My higher power, who I choose to call GOD". You have defined Your higher power, others can define theirs how they wish. I think the fear is that some newcomers will get scared off by too much emphasis on the GOD thing, but over time, GOD may enter their lives a little at a time. IMO
Merry Christmas to you BTY!
-- Edited by d_willing on Tuesday 24th of December 2013 10:47:47 AM
I have heard people say their higher power is a door knob. There is probably more to the story. More going on there on that topic with that person. I don't need to know about it.
I think there is some mention of a higher power tha can restore us to sanity, provide the A,B,C's we lack. Of course a door knob can't do that.
I would say that the program is perfect. The practitioners of it often fall short. I know I sure do. Patience and understanding will be invaluable on your journey. As long as you have your God or Higher Power, your understanding, your relationship with, you are doing well.
I just let those comments slide. The person is in AA and at least trying. In time they will probably get it better. But it really is not my concern.
I am happy you have your eyes and ears open. Happy you are judging things. We don't judge others as passing a death sentence. But we do look at the paradoxes, we see the growth or lack of.
Keep on keeping on!
My wife and I said our prayers this morning to our God. It is a personal relationship. I never had that before. I can't tell you what it is for others, only for me. It feels like a triangle of sorts. God is at the top and my wife and I are at the bottom. As we grow toward God, we also grow closer to each other.
This is just another way the AA program prepares me for life.
Thank you for sharing today.
__________________
"I spent a lifetime in hell and it only took me twelve steps to get to heaven."
"Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you."
Yes, we of agnostic temperament have had these thoughts and experiences. Let us make haste to reassure you. We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God. Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men.
When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you. At the start, this was all we needed to commence spiritual growth, to effect our first conscious relation with God as we understood Him. Afterward, we found ourselves accepting many things which then seemed entirely out of reach. That was growth, but if we wished to grow we had to begin somewhere. So we used our own conception, however limited it was. We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. "Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built. That was great news to us, for we had assumed we could not make use of spiritual principles unless we accepted many things on faith which seemed difficult to believe. When people presented us with spiritual approaches, how frequently did we all say, "I wish I had what that man has. I'm sure it would work if I could only believe as he believes. But I cannot accept as surely true the many articles of faith which are so plain to him." So it was comforting to learn that we could commence at a simpler level.
pg. 93
Tell him exactly what happened to you. Stress the spiritual feature freely. If the man be agnostic or atheist, make it emphatic that he does not have to agree with your conception of God. He can choose any conception he likes, provided it makes sense to him. The main thing is that he be willing to believe in a Power greater than himself and that he live by spiritual principles. When dealing with such a person, you had better use everyday language to describe spiritual principles. There is no use arousing any prejudice he may have against certain theological terms and conceptions about which he may already be confused. Dont raise such issues, no matter what your own convictions are.
I just wanted to stress that it serves no purpose to question why others cannot see or feel your(our) concept of God ... nor why some feel they must use foul language in a building used for the worship of your(our) God ... (I've heard that the use of foul language is definitely not a sign of 'spiritual progress', quite the opposite actually) ...
'd willing' said it best ... and I use the exact phrasing when I refer to my higher power ... I say, whom I choose to call God ... this relieves the pressure for new-comers to believe they must also believe in God, which they may not be ready for ... we come into the program as 'babies' ... Lord willing, we grow ... and I wanted to mention that the original manuscript for the BB had mentioned God so many times that there was an uproar that caused Bill to remove many references to God before it was finally published ...
Love ya and God Bless, Pappy
-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Tuesday 24th of December 2013 05:53:21 PM
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Thanks for your replies and Wow! After reading them, I doubt that I will question these things again. Hopefully not, anyway, as I tend to forget things more easily than I used to. But this is very important to me as in meetings when the language gets a little rough or the sharers get a little loud because of someone sharing their belief, I have found myself feeling very uncomfortable and it is hard for me to focus on what happens during the rest of the meeting. I have heard sometimes what d_willing and Pappy, you both use "Whom I choose to call God" and I am going to use that in the future.
One of the first AA meetings I attended several years ago, a woman kept using the "F" word. Hey, I am certainly not a saint and have used that in the past usually when I have been very upset and most of the time was drunk. I think what bothered me was that it was just bizarre to me that someone used that in a church. I almost didn't go back to the next meeting because of that, but I did and it wasn't long before someone said or did something that irked me and I ended up quitting anyway. Guess I was just looking for an excuse to drink and it probably wouldn't have mattered what anyone did as long as I could blame someone other than myself for my choosing to drink again. I like what Pappy said that it serves no purpose in questioning why people use this and other "colorful" words. I know this, however, still allowed myself to be bothered by it. Now I will try to remember Pappy with his big ole smile telling me that the next time I hear it and I think it will help me to do as I posted the other day "Live and Let Live". (Ha! I have to laugh at myself at how hypocritical I can be sometimes without even realizing it until I catch myself doing it. Definitely need to put that on my inventory list to work on.)
I hope that I didn't come across as being overly critical above about the Higher Power part. I understand (at least I think I do, unless it is some unconscious thing I have going...) that everyone should have the right to choose who they want to believe in. (And love the door knob opening to the HP--thanks zoomtopz!) I think I was just trying to figure out why there are those who get upset at who I choose to believe in. But it doesn't really matter I see now from what Pappy said above and also as jad has told me all that really matters is what I think of me and my HP thinks of me. (Obviously, I have forgotten that or it wouldn't have been necessary to do this posting. See what I mean about me forgetting so much?)
Also, I am a bit ashamed of myself for not reading the Big Book and appreciate Pappy's posting. It is all in there. I have read that but my retention sure leaves a lot to be desired. I read a posting the other day on here about someone wondering if the program needed to be updated. I didn't respond to it as I don't feel I have enough time/experience in AA to know. But I did think that maybe they should remove some of the "God's" if people were so offended by it. However, after Pappy educating me some, they even covered that in the BB. Thank you all for your responses which have made me understand and appreciate the Third Step so much more....,"Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God of as we understood Him"....
(not as John Doe, Susie Doe or anyone else understands Him, but as I understand Him. And it is comforting for me to know that in AA we are not forced to believe in a particular religion or in a particular HP in order to be successful in the program.)
On that crucial day in the treatment hospital, when I prayed my first desperate prayer asking for help, I'm glad that "my conception of God" did not come to me. You see, "my conception of God" would've refused to help me. "My conception of God" despised me. "My conception of God" never would've done anything for me. When I prayed that day, I actually encountered something I couldn't possibly conceive of at the time. I encountered the real God who really loves me. Love was something I hadn't expected. There's more to say, but I'll leave it at that. Blessings to all, Mike D.
What a beautiful experience you shared, Mike. I had reached the point that the God of my understanding either didn't exist at all or if He did, he had wiped his hands clean of me. I didn't and couldn't love myself so I could not understand or believe how He or anyone else could for that matter. The gifts of AA and staying sober are there if we just open up our hearts and minds to believe that we aren't in this alone and don't have to give up hope and let this disease take us out.
