I'm A Little Sad About Some Newcomers....

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

RE: I'm A Little Sad About Some Newcomers....

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

pinkchip wrote:
I also know my views are tainted from working in treatment where there is no way I would be effective at all if I just slapped a big book in front of the alcoholics and addicts I work with and told them "Here's your solution, read up."

That's exactly what my councelor did to me at Hazeldon...That was all the beginning I needed. I left two weeks early to get a sponsor and be able to attend more meetings. Exactly what happened.

betterthanyesterday52 · MIP Old Timer

Howdy, Pappy!
Yes, I was totally into the "me, me, me's!!!" when I drank. Now, I really do care about others. However, I do wonder if people are going to get suspicious of me when I am concerned. That is how I was when I was drinking (and sometimes am now, which will hopefully be yet another thing that I can change by working the steps---my suspiciousness and mind-reading). Anyway, I guess I didn't feel good about my own self, so if someone else cared about me I thought they must have an ulterior motive. I heard early in AA that "the things that bother us about others are sometimes the things that bother us most about ourselves" so I am trying to watch out for that . I am feeling better about myself but still have so many insecurities.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

BTY said, ... I am feeling better about myself but still have so many insecurities.

I know what you're say'n BTY .. remember the book says ... 'sometimes quickly, and sometimes slowly, ' ... ... ... don't let anxiety ruin your 'peace and serenity' ...

-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Saturday 7th of December 2013 11:09:18 PM

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

You are not the big book any more than a preacher is a bible. You are also making dangerous assumptions that you interpretation and ways of conveying what are in that book are absolute and better than others. Just as likely you turned of someone who had answers you don't.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Just like someone that holds up a bible and tells you it's not their views that x, y, and z is right versus wrong..it's the bible. No. It's your understanding of it and that is all it will ever be.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

I know it well enough to know that it doesn't say to take three years...Or one year to do the first three steps....I respectfully disagree with you.

betterthanyesterday52 · MIP Old Timer

Well....since it was mentioned in one of the above posts....

I do feel the need to say that I have read a few rather strong remarks directed toward a newcomer that I wondered if the poster had directed them to me instead of someone else, if I would have left this board for good... (For ex. the needing a sharp instrument to remove one's head from their behind or something like that-- (ouch!!!). I have quit AA in the past not because of an online board like this, but from remarks made to me at meetings which were not nearly as "strong" as that one but ones that I allowed to hurt my feelings and gave me an excuse to start drinking again. What I am trying to pound into this hard head of mine is that it really doesn't matter what anyone says or does to me. All that matters is what I think about myself and how I treat myself and how I treat others. If I am kind and loving to myself --by not drinking--then I am capable of being that way to others. (And please don't think that this is to suggest that posters on this board who make these comments are still drinking, just speaking from my perspective of myself only). If I am not kind and loving and don't treat someone with respect then I need to make amends asap. I have a very guilty conscious and used to and still do apologize for things not only I did to people but things I didn't do. I have gotton better about not apologizing for the latter, as I was having others tell me to stop apologizing all the time. Sometimes I figured out from the tone and manner they used with me that I was annoying the hell out of them, and then I apologized for apologizing. (What a hot mess I was/still am at times, but at least I'm a sober hot mess :) as well as a rambling hot mess :(

Anyway, I hope that any newcomers coming to this board can focus on the great info that the majority of posters give to help them stay sober and that they filter out any comments that come across as unloving and unkind. I'd like to think that no one on this board, especially those with long term sobriety, is trying to hurt anyone's feelings and that they are just trying to help save lives, which is very loving and very kind. I also believe that sometimes, when they come across newcomers who don't seem to "get it" and who misinterpret the "Keep it Simple" to mean "Keep it Stepless", that they get a little frustrated and have a hard time keeping it in, and just don't want someone else to die from alcoholism.

Peace and Love.
bty

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

I didn't say it did take that long. For most it probably should not. It took her that long for whatever reason. Didn't hurt her either. Didn't kill me to stay on those fist three steps for a whole year either. It is what it is. I share from my heart and so was she so when you say "I disagree" you are crapping all over her sobriety, esh, and mine. Be cautious. Framimg with "this is what worked for me" is better. I give up if this does not make sense to you. This part of the debate not working so well. I love ya stepchild...For two people with time to get upset over how we work our programs different is a worse message than any thing to newcomers.Viva la big book! Glad we all stayed sober today.

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

This is a great thread you have started BTY. It's brought out lots of interesting and valid responses and discussion.

For what it's worth I think you are on the right track. Right at the start of the book Ebby tells Bill a price has to be paid for this deal, and it's not the cost of rehab. It is the destruction of self centredness, and that seem to be what you have been working on and making great progress with.

On page 85 the Book says "we vigorously commenced this way of living as we cleaned up the past" , the introduction to step 10. It seems to be saying that past matters may take some time to clear up, which makes sense, but we need to be doing what we can TODAY to develop this way of life. It makes perfect sense to clear up new mistakes as they happen, rather than create a new mess to deal with after the other steps are done. It makes sense to try and practice prayer and meditation, to seek guidance each day, and it makes sense to try and help others. None of these things will do you any harm, in fact I believe they saved my life.

Some of the direct benefits of trying to live in 10,11, and 12 looked like this.

Step 10 helped me keep a clear conscience and reduced the risk of resentment.

Step 11, Prayer had the effect of changing my attitude about steps 4 and 5. Shortly after trying prayer I felt a strong need to take these steps, which only a few days earlier I wanted to avoid at any cost.

Step 12, Giving someone a ride to a meeting made me feel useful for the first time in my life. It gave me a taste of what sobriety is about and I liked it.

The past still had to be cleaned up though, and there was some urgency about that because contained in the past were all the seeds of relapse, all the things that had been blocking me from a long term relationship with the God of my understanding.

The book acknowledges that there are occasions where we may be delayed, finding a suitable person for our 5th step, finding the right circumstances to make an amends, for example, but over all the book urges us not to waste time. Specifically it says that as we straighten out spiritually, we find we straighten out mentally and physically as well, which indicates our spiritual condition is at the heart of our recovery.

Someone quoted the very high success rate 50-75% quoted in the foreword to the second edition, which is very relevent to the subject you have raised. Some of the facts didn't seem quite right, so i'll try and sting it together as I understand it actually happened. I could be wrong, I often am.

When the second edition came out, AA had been going almost 20 years and had about 150,000 recovered alcoholics. That number is big enough to represent a revolution in the treatment of alcoholism, but small enough that they were able to draw some reasonable conclusions about success rates. They talked of this marvelous success rate among those "who really tried" which I take to mean those who took the medicine of the steps. But even back then they were aware a large number of people just passed through. Bill spoke to a medical society in 1944 and said perhaps as many as 4 out of 5 had a look but did not stay for various reasons - they did not like the program, the God bit etc. just like today. But many of these returned after a few more rounds with John Barleycorn. Apparently JB was the best one to make the message more palatable.

Anyway, I digress. When the Book first came out we had about 100 members. After the book, and a series of fortutitous events with the media, our society started to grow at an exponential rate. In practical terms, this meant they were flooded with enquiries. The membership jumped from 2000 to 8000 in just one year. The only way to handle the flood of suffering individuals was to get them through the steps quickly and then get them on the front line helping others. The idea of making people sit on their ass for a year before they were permitted to help others was totally impractical. I believe they did have the practice of taking an indiviual through the first three steps, which took an hour or two, before they were allowed in a meeting.

Do you see the paralell. they got them through the steps quick, and had them working with others virtually straight away. Perhaps that was because they didn't have the man power to do it any other way, but the result was that huge recovery rate. That's why I believe you are on the right track. You are doing what they did.

PC mentioned 6 elements of today's AA that will help with sobriety. Some of those were not available to newcomers in the early years, but from the list two absolute essentials can be identified :

The Big Book and the message it contains
and the necessity to work with others.

AA started in many towns and cities around the world with just one man and the book. It did exactly that in my country. I owe my life to one man who got hold of a Big Book and went out to other alcoholics with the very specific message it contained.

Leave out either of those two factors and, for my money, the alcoholic is destined to drink again.

God bless,
MikeH.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Great post Mike! Thanks

Sober Strummer · Senior Member

pinkchip wrote:
I respect your view sober strummer, though it is the people in AA that got me to stay and it's the people that I go back for. I have memorized large chunks of the big book and can recite it just like most of us can after a few years in the program. If I was still going just for the book message, it would make me a pretty slow learner. Fundamental difference. I also know my views are tainted from working in treatment where there is no way I would be effective at all if I just slapped a big book in front of the alcoholics and addicts I work with and told them "Here's your solution, read up." (though I do tell them regularly that AA and/or NA is the real long term and ongoing treatment for the disease and not rehab and I also quote big book a lot). This is not work in the standard sense like sponsoring. It is dear to my heart though and it's still my message. I pretty much have now dedicated my entire life to helping those with alcoholism and addiction. It was my choice. Doesn't make me unique or special or that I know more though I am having experiences that other's don't have as much in standard AA persay. I don't assume to know what a person with 19 years of sobriety does either. I only know how to string together 5...shrug.

As far as life or death, well, if I just told folks, "You didn't do it like the big book and that is why you are here in rehab!"...some of them would die from that. I'm betting I see much more death from alcoholism and addiction than the average person. Tasha is right that it is the alanon program which has given me some humility to know who my audience is and how to tailor my responses as such....i.e, not telling the person that works daily with the sickest of sick drunks and drug addicts that their message is all wrong and they are going to kill people. Thx. Little bit insensitive and hit my hot button (even acknowledging there's some martyrdom going on there - yeah...i'll admit that.)

I led "recovery skills group" amongst others today. I focused on something I think I wrote earlier in this thread regarding 6 crucial areas of the program (in no specific order):

1. Meetings
2. Sponsor
3. Literature
4. Service
5. Fellowship
6. Steps

I discussed how each of these things acted as a safety net against relapse. I asked how many of them had availed themselves of all 6. Guess how many? None. Some had worked the steps and most all had read the big book. One of the clients told me "If I had just done all those things, I wouldn't be here in rehab. Wow. It's so simple." This is where my message comes from. I have to be more than just a big book (while acknowledging that book is pretty much my bible also)....kind of like how a "good Christian" doesn't just go around saying "That's not in the bible" and "The bible says this!!!" They go around acting their beliefs right? It's a program of attraction not just a book. If it was just a book, everyone would do it on self-study, take courses in it...go to class, learn it, and be done with it.

Also, I don't mean to down anyone...including stepchild. He is cool beans and I gotta give props to someone with such incredible BB knowledge. That is an asset majorly. But, assuming to absolutely know or be teaching the program the right way for everyone...um no....

Your post reminds me of the feel of a conversation I would have had with my departed first sponsor. Very long and thorough. Lots of points well defended.

In his simple way he would say.

you can't give away what you haven't got.

i loved that simplicity. I would just think on it. True enough. We pass on what we learned, how we learned it, The best we can. Giving away what we got. It works when it is authentic.

I do not agree with mixing alanon and aa in the same program. It would be if needed. There are two dynamics at play IMO. The chronic abuser, liar, manipulator and then the martyr victim manipulator. It is funny when drunks learn alanon and try to be manipulative using alanon type arguments. No saying that is happening here, but there is a little bit of that "you kids are so bad, calling each other names. I am better than you so I won't do it." Just point it out and be offended. But it happens all the time, even in face to face meetings, which is 95% of my time. I do it. But when I do wrong, I am right :). This is a sickness.

glad we talked this out a bit past just a disagreement. Good luck with the job.

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Your post reminds me of the feel of a conversation I would have had with my departed first sponsor. Very long and thorough. Lots of points well defended.

In his simple way he would say.

you can't give away what you haven't got.

i loved that simplicity. I would just think on it. True enough. We pass on what we learned, how we learned it, The best we can. Giving away what we got. It works when it is authentic.

I do not agree with mixing alanon and aa in the same program. It would be if needed. There are two dynamics at play IMO. The chronic abuser, liar, manipulator and then the martyr victim manipulator. It is funny when drunks learn alanon and try to be manipulative using alanon type arguments. No saying that is happening here, but there is a little bit of that "you kids are so bad, calling each other names. I am better than you so I won't do it." Just point it out and be offended. But it happens all the time, even in face to face meetings, which is 95% of my time. I do it. But when I do wrong, I am right :). This is a sickness.

glad we talked this out a bit past just a disagreement. Good luck with the job.

Strummer your departed sponsor is probably sitting and chatting and watching with my former departed sponsor because they agree "you cannot give away what you haven't got" and my former Al-Anon sponsor Don T. (don't) added "and you ought not try". I know your share here isn't all about me and let me add that I have had fellows from AA who have come up to me and say "I want what you have" after watching my behavior...specifically my calmness during disturbances in and around meetings. They ask me, "how do you do that"? my response is "I didn't learn it in these rooms. I learned it in the "other" room". The steps and traditions of the Al-Anon Family Groups are mirror image of the steps and traditions of AA...the focus is different. My AA program takes care of my compulsion, addicition and allergy with alcohol and other mind and mood altering chemicals and Al-Anon takes care of everything else. I can and have done insane without a drop of alcohol in my system which was as much or more painful because I didn't have the anesthesia of alcohol to block out reality...I don't do that anymore...so often...on purpose.

Get some real experience with the "other" room...do 90X90...don't identify as an alcoholic or AA member because we keep "other" programs and philosophies out of the meeting plus if you do identify as an alcoholic it might disturb a member there who's life has been completely destroyed by someone elses drinking.

Your share causes me to smile and I want to laugh out loud. I am a double and I recognize the voices and thoughts. LOL ...Go find your open mind and go do 90X90 in the Al-Anon program. Funny that it kept me alcohol free for 9 years before my first for real, for me AA meeting on suggestion by Don T. Keep coming back. smile

Sober Strummer · Senior Member

Thanks Jerry. I can feel a kindred spirit there in your share.

Just to be sure i understand you, are you saying you stayed sober for 7 years in Alanon Before ever going to AA?

-- Edited by Sober Strummer on Sunday 8th of December 2013 03:44:30 PM

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

I'm curious about that too.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

I'm not real crazy about the message I'm getting here....As far as this is a message board with AA in it's header. I have to look at it from a newcomers perspective...Someone hopelessy lost...Looking for a way out...Much like I was. I was taken in by some wonderful oldtimers that shared with me how they got sober...Precisely the way it's laid out in the book. Not one of them directed me toward alanon's meetings or program....Then or now. My spiritual awakening...My entire psychic change occured with the 12 steps of AA...My obsession was lifted...My problem was solved....And I was given a new life, a new freedom...And a new happiness...As promised. I have to wonder how it would have gone over for me...If they were leading me down two paths when I came into AA.....Not too good I'm betting. Not crazy about it at all. As a matter of fact...I think it sucks.

-- Edited by Stepchild on Sunday 8th of December 2013 04:40:45 PM

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

I didn't hear anybody recommending Al Anon for newcomers in AA

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

And out of curiosity, in which step do you take other people's inventories and tell them that their message sucks?

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

We admitted we were powerless over alcohol and that our lives had become unmanageable. Came to believe that a Power...Greater than ourselves...could restore us to sanity. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him. Made a Searching...Fearless...and Moral inventory of ourselves. Admitted to God, ourselves and another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. Humbly asked him to remove our short comings. Made a list of all persons I had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. Made direct amends to such people except, when to do so would injure them...or others. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong...promptly admitted it. Sought thru prayer and meditation to improve my (personal program) conscious contact with God as I understand God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for me and the power to carry that out. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these step I try to carry this message to others and practice these principles in all my affairs.

With these steps and the traditions and the love and support of the Al-Anon Fellowship and many many recovering alcoholics I stayed dry in Al-Anon and my life became an event I never imagined it should be or could be.

I was told early on by Don T that I had to remove myself from all things alcohol and so I walked away from my family of origin and my marriage. I came out from under the influence. I left my associates that ran bars, liquor stores, night clubs and such...all things alcohol and while that caused my life to get very quiet and somber I use to solo drink and isolate usually when I wasn't with "them" and the problem wasn't "them". I made all the choices except for being born with in our disease. I had no choice for the family I was born into many of them dead or dying by the time I had arrived from alcohol and drugs. I did as suggested without fighting my Al-Anon program as I was AA. I was raise inside of the alcoholic personality and surely it was mine also...God was it ever. "Instant asshole...just add alcohol and then alcohol wasn't necessary once I acclimated willfully. My ego became supreme and at the same time fearful of attacks and I fought everything and everyone, everywhere and all the time including God when I thought I was most deserving and I didn't drink for 9 years.

The very first suggestion I heard which became a fulfilled promise was at the end of my earliest face to face meeting..."If you keep an open mind (necessary tool of both programs) you will find help and that was all I needed ...help because when I first arrived I didn't know anything about alcoholism...couldn't spell it couldn't define it. I didn't know and didn't know that I didn't know. The meetings read the definition of alcoholism and I came to understand that my spouse/wife/alcoholic/addict was a sick person and not a bitch. I knew nothing about myself and I had not yet understood why she use to often say "God I wish I could drink like you". I didn't understand the insanity nature of alcoholism and so didn't connect it up with my desire to commit suicide prior to finding recovery in any room. I did not understand and I had been drinking since he age of nine. My skin hue was yellowish/green and I didn't understand the physiology of our disease and there were of course many other problems I just thought we due to bad luck or caused by some convenient person, place or thing to blame.

I didn't drink and I didn't do drinking things because my wife was an alcoholic and an addict and now understand that God uses whatever God can to help us gain and maintain our sobriety.

I do things backwards and different and often defiantly. I have O.D.D oppositional defiant disorder as diagnosed thru the VA alcoholism center in Fresno CA. I know how to say "No"!! in many languages and the core of that...the tap root emotion is fear...you all know that. I do things backwards and late. I procrastinate as if it were a high paying career yet not on all things as while I didn't enter AA using the same trail as many of the other fellows or even my clients it was my Higher Power directly who led me to my very first assessment. HP led me to that assessment thru a inpatient registration who I helped do his assessment and when I was done and he was entering the ambulance for inpatient HP asked me "What qualifies him to be in inpatient care and not you"? I went back to my desk and pulled out a blank assessment and like a 4th step did a fearless and searching assessment anonymously and then took it to the adult section of the rehab I was counseling in. (Imagine...me counseling...LOL. HP has either a huge sense of humor and then rather a more knowledgable will than any of us. I waited in the hallway for the result of the review of the assessment and when the head nurse who had come into Al-Anon a couple weeks after I did approached me she said, "I don't know who this assessment belongs to but whoever it is they need to be in inpatient care immediately or the next time they drink they die". My searching revealed that I had been in toxic shock from overdose drinking 3Xs and the fellowship of AA had already taught me from the experiences of other alcoholics that when they relapsed they didn't go back to their first drink; they went back to the last and I came to understand I had no defense against a relapse other than my recovery programs and no one in Al-Anon could understand a relpase back to drinking near enough to save me should I yet go back out. I had already witness several incomprehensible relapse death within the fellowship that helped me to understand "powerlessness".

When I told my friend/nurse that the assessment was mine...she reminded me that we knew what to do next. She reminded me of my years in the rooms and that Friday in was in an AA meeting for me alone for cause, willfully and in person without arguement or O.D.D. behavior. I sat in a corner, in the back of the room at the edge of light and everyone in the room knew and knew me already...I had counseled many of them and their children and their families and friends and associates as a therapist and I saw many of them in Al-Anon meetings and I had never ever said, "My name is Jerry and I am alcoholic". I found that almost impossible to say just like many of the alcoholics in my life who I have been with since their starts in recovery and what the fellowship did at this Friday night meeting was hold up the meeting in silence...deafening silence until I said it and it still overwhelms me to revisit that cause had I drank again since I just would have got it all back...God just imagine getting it all back. I'm grateful to the Father that is Father to us all for the patient attendance and the people in both rooms He has used to help me gain and maintain my serenity and sobriety.

This morning we had a newcomer at the Sunday version of my homegroup...AA by the Bay. Nice guy. Young guy. Small and pleasant in appearance. Alcoholic. Several of us sat with him in a small group sharing our ESH with him and loving him so that we would not be a barrier to his return. Each of us have our own stories and he was told to listenn to the similarities with his own rather than any differences so that he could understand that we know and know that we know and that he can reach out to us at all times for support live and personal. His first day and didn't even get a 24 hour chip cause we have run out and he didn't care cause he was where he knew he needed to be.

This isn't a Little Sad About Some Newcomers share...he left with hope and so did we...just for today.

God did for me what I could not and even would not do for myself often and for me I'm no big deal...I'm a double. It's taken two programs to do for me what one couldn't. I did 102X90 in Al-Anon when I started on my second try with both programs. Evidently it worked...for me. If you wanna know...you gotta go.

smile

Yesterday the newcomer was in the "other" program.

-- Edited by Jerry F on Sunday 8th of December 2013 05:45:19 PM

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

I hear it in all your messages....Just the term double winner I find insulting. Like the AA solution isn't enough. I'm happy with what AA has given me.

To show other alcoholics PRECISELY HOW WE HAVE RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book.

BB Foreward

Do you know what precisely means?

in exact terms; without vagueness

I think if we stuck to that more...We'd probably have better results. They go on to say...

The tremendous fact for every one of us is that we have discovered a common solution. We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree, and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action. This is the great news this book carries to those who suffer from alcoholism.

BB pg 17

Absolutely agree on....And then you hear all this other nonsense....It bothers me. I'm entitled to have an opinion here right?

-- Edited by Stepchild on Sunday 8th of December 2013 05:44:59 PM

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

It's just jerry's esh...which you crapped on. Pretty sure if if Jerry met a slobbering drunk that wanted help, he'd take them to AA and not alanon. Love and tolerance is our code. Not telling peple they suck and are full of nonsense. Might be time for the monthly call to the sponsor.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

I said the message I'm hearing sucks...I'm hearing things like I was sober 7 years in alanon before I went to AA...I'm hearing people waiting years to take the first three steps...In your case your sponsor hadn't done one...So I can see reason for the delay....I'm hearing about a fourth step with a good and bad column....And I'm not seeing any of this in the directions. You got me?

-- Edited by Stepchild on Sunday 8th of December 2013 06:10:58 PM

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

I hated and didn't understand and thought it was for whining crying babies who did nothing more than feel sorry for themselves. So I took some direction and listened with an open mind, did regular meetings and got a home group and started doing service in alanon. I'm not at all saying a newcomer AA should go to alanon to get sober either. It's not about that, it's just that, I was just scared of alanon because I didn't know what I didn't know... and with an open mind and some willingness it turned out to be the greatest gift (along with AA) that I could ever imagine! I went from thinking we were on opposite teams and against each other, to seeing the benefits of both groups working toward a united front against alcoholism, just like Bill and Lois - just like my husband and I in our every day lives. They are a compliment to each other, and when we have both programs working in our home like Bill and Lois did - there is peace and serenity they way it was intended. Bill and Lois sat in a room with doubles before they even knew their was going to be such a thing. It was never intended to be something to be afraid of - but supportive - unselfish and without self centered thinking on both sides of the coin is a miracle. The owner of our very site here at MIP is a double winner. It's in no way an insult - it's more like - I'm going to wear 2 pairs of socks because it's 5 below outside... double up - double protection - double the love... why not? The more understanding the better IMO. Bill W had all of that going on too. Knowledge and experience from more than one angle isn't a bad thing. It took me a while to get over the hump of discomfort in AA, I came in kicking and screaming - and it took me some time to get over the hump in Alanon and I came in kicking and screaming there too. Boy am I glad I kept coming back - to both - and didn't give up on myself in either area. What a blessing :)

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

What I was told and what I passed on to the newcomer this morning was "look for the similarities...not the differences". So let me suggest the same to you SC...can you see the similarities and is one of them that we are sober members of AA? I left the newcomer this morning with his own "free" Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous...similarities...your differences have not done much for my recovery. I got my first chip at 16 years and didn't even expect it. I was attending t my recovery "one day at a time" not a day more or less and blew right past the chip counter. I don't think you relate to that and I could be wrong...the point is for me stated in the 2nd and 3rd step which takes me off of the pedestal...It isn't all about me. "Double winner" doesn't make Stepchild less than and it says nothing about your journey and your choices it isn't a concern and absolutely no one is recommending other than those who insist and interpret to fill their own need. False Evidence Appearing Real... The opposite of fear is love (HP face to face lesson with me). You're loved and can be whoever and whatever you choose to be. My sponsor who sits with your sponsor chatting once warned me "never get in the way between a person and their recovery". For me I have no desire for that. Stay sober as best you can. smile

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

I came to AA to recover from alcoholism...Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of the steps it allowed those promises to materialize for me...I have no need for alanon....Not even real sure why we are talking about it. I'm happy being a single winner.

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Then you have no objection to the God of your understanding helping others to achieve recovery; sobriety, serenity in the manner that the God of your understanding wills. Right on. I was outside walking my pups and thinking about this thread and my mind went to the lessons of acceptance by Dr. Paul on page 449. Are we not blessed? (((hugs))) smile

Sober Strummer · Senior Member

All the talk of ALANON is an outside issue. In the program of AA, normally you teach AA. Personal testimonies include outside issues like church membership, social clubs, those involvements.

I think the idea of saying I stayed sober for years on ALANON is the issue. Sharing a testimony as ESH is one thing. That is highly unusual and I agree it should not be shared as a suggested program of recovery. We already have a suggested program of recovery.

No additives required.

Implying being a double dipper somehow creates a Greater Than class is BS. That is like saying church membership creates a Greater Than class. No such thing.

So back to being sad about newcomers that don't make it.

A good solid basic presentation of the AA program is what's needed. Not church, not ALANON, just basic AA shared with compassion and understanding. If that conflicts with the core of this site, something is wrong.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Sober Strummer wrote:
All the talk of ALANON is an outside issue. In the program of AA, normally you teach AA. Personal testimonies include outside issues like church membership, social clubs, those involvements.

I think the idea of saying I stayed sober for years on ALANON is the issue. Sharing a testimony as ESH is one thing. That is highly unusual and I agree it should not be shared as a suggested program of recovery. We already have a suggested program of recovery.

No additives required.

Implying being a double dipper somehow creates a Greater Than class is BS. That is like saying church membership creates a Greater Than class. No such thing.

So back to being sad about newcomers that don't make it.

A good solid basic presentation of the AA program is what's needed. Not church, not ALANON, just basic AA shared with compassion and understanding. If that conflicts with the core of this site, something is wrong.

I couldn't agree with you more....Somehow the message is getting way off track....On a side note...This stuff wouldn't fly in my homegroup...That would be shut down quick.

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

From page 449 of the 3rd edition of Alcoholics Anonymous, second paragraph. And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, or thing, or situation - some fact of my life - unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God's world by mistake. Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not stay sober; unless I accept life completely on life's terms, I cannot be happy. I need to concerntrate not so much on what needs to be changed in the world as on what needs to be changed in me and in my attitudes. He goes on...

Shakespeare said, "All the world's a stage, all the men and women merely players," He forgot to mention that I was the chief critic. I was always able to see the flaw in every person, every situation. And I was always glad to point it out, because I knew you wanted perfection, just as I did. AA and acceptance have taught me that there is a bit of bad in the best of us; that we are all children of God and we have a right to be here. When I complain about me or about you, I am complaining about God's handiwork. I am saying that I know better than God.

It goes on...all of it good. I'm grateful for his input into my recovery and for Don T who introduced me to it early on in my journey.

Do you wish to comment? It also is in your Big Book and has been talked about in your meetings. MIP is an open forum not an AA meeting. Beyond opinions it is our shared experiences which really support recovery from this disease in and for others. However your responses by experiences are understandable as I address the part fear played in my life and the freedom I was given when my Higher Power relieved me of it. You can tell when its fear because it becomes a matter of personalities and not principles. That's okay. We all have our choices.

-- Edited by Jerry F on Sunday 8th of December 2013 11:46:48 PM

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

This acceptance story is very popular these days, but it must be taken in context. It does not form part of the program but is instead part of a personal story. The personal stories are placed in context on page 29 in There Is a Solution:

"Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-three personal experiences.

Each individual, in the personal stories, describes in his own language and from his own point of view the way he established his relationship with God. These give a fair cross section of our membership and a clear-cut idea of what has actually happened in their lives."

There is a clear separation between the stories and the program. I am not saying that Paul doesn't express a nice sentiment or there is anything wrong with what he says, I just need to remember it is his experience, not the program. We don't single out the other stories (apart from Dr Bob's Nightmare) that is.

The problem I have with this particular piece is that it is so often used as a cop out by people who ought to know better. Example,

Mike D posted about lack of commitment to sponsees of some sponsors, the sponsor not being willing to give the required time to help them work the steps. If a sponsor were to accept Mikes "complaint" and help the new man, we know the sponsor will be the main beneficiary, and maybe the new man will get something out of it too.

The reluctant sponsor on the other hand, could quote page 449 at Mike, with the clear idea that it means he should shut up and leave him alone. The disruptive member can also use it in this way, as can the frightened old timer who doesn't want to risk his popularity by making a stand on principle.

Another interpretation is "concentrating on what needs to be changed in me". I don't like their symptoms or the way they disturb me, do I turn my back and pretend it is not happening, or do I ask the God of my understanding for the strength and courage to do the right thing no matter what the personal consequences might be? The right thing may well be do nothing. But it might equally be to speak out or take some other remedial action.

God can move mountains, but it's best to bring a shovel, as a wise man once said.

God bless,
MikeH

Sober Strummer · Senior Member

Jerry F wrote:

From page 449 of the 3rd edition of Alcoholics Anonymous, second paragraph. And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, or thing, or situation - some fact of my life - unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God's world by mistake. Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not stay sober; unless I accept life completely on life's terms, I cannot be happy. I need to concerntrate not so much on what needs to be changed in the world as on what needs to be changed in me and in my attitudes. He goes on...
Shakespeare said, "All the world's a stage, all the men and women merely players," He forgot to mention that I was the chief critic. I was always able to see the flaw in every person, every situation. And I was always glad to point it out, because I knew you wanted perfection, just as I did. AA and acceptance have taught me that there is a bit of bad in the best of us; that we are all children of God and we have a right to be here. When I complain about me or about you, I am complaining about God's handiwork. I am saying that I know better than God.
It goes on...all of it good. I'm grateful for his input into my recovery and for Don T who introduced me to it early on in my journey.
Do you wish to comment? It also is in your Big Book and has been talked about in your meetings. MIP is an open forum not an AA meeting. Beyond opinions it is our shared experiences which really support recovery from this disease in and for others. However your responses by experiences are understandable as I address the part fear played in my life and the freedom I was given when my Higher Power relieved me of it. You can tell when its fear because it becomes a matter of personalities and not principles. That's okay. We all have our choices.

-- Edited by Jerry F on Sunday 8th of December 2013 11:46:48 PM

We all make choices and are critics. Silly way of taking a point to an illogical end. Everything happens. Gods will? Children being Molested? The people getting sucker punched in the Knockout game? All those people killed in the terrorist takeover of the mall in Kenya? Obviously not. it I happened. Fitting it to god's will to fit your belief system is a stretch. People have choices, calling it god's will after the fact is a way to always say you are right. You can never be wrong. That is like claiming to be a fortune teller reading yesterday's paper!

It is AA. Should be primarily AA for teachings, with personal stories of ESH for context. Saying ALANON is the way to get sober is way outside of the program. Not really a debate. You can do anything you want in Jerry's world. But as the thread is about newcomers and making it, a healthy dose of AA is the prescription. As you have shared that you like to do things backwards, this appears to be a case. So let it be backwards. Own it. It is Gods will for you to do things backwards per your own logic since that is the way it is. So maybe your god reached you where you were? Did things backwards to save you? Counted you worth the extra effort...

Attempting fanciful arguments and quoting literature is window dressing for the wrong tool being used. Yes, you can drive a nail with a crescent wrench, but a hammer works better. No amount of rationalization for being open minded on the uses of a crescent wrench will change that. Choosing to do things the hard way is a typical alkie trait. it does not mean we should say that is right or normal, or God's will.

I'm glad it worked for you, but it s not the program outlined by AA. Not the message of the big book. Not the best tool for the job.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Jerry F wrote:
Do you wish to comment?

I'm not a real big fan of how that acceptance reading is misused in AA....The only things I have absolutely had to accept is my alcoholism...And the solution for it. But I do believe it is principles before personalities....Steps before people. There is one set of directions Jerry...I think it would be better for all concerned if we stuck to them...Exactly as the ones before us put them on paper....It works....It really does.

d_willing · Veteran Member

After reading through some of these posts, I may have a real hard time staying sober reading this board, this is not really what I need to be reading to stay sober. Showing people what has worked for you to get and stay sober is wonderful, but insulting each others methods sucks, I would be afraid to write anything now for fear of being told I was stupid and know nothing. I know the steps are the answer but I also like to hear other ESH. I guess i'll just stick with my meetings and say the heck with this board. It was great finding this board in the beginning, but I get tense reading it now. Just some words from a newcomer.

D

-- Edited by d_willing on Monday 9th of December 2013 09:58:20 AM

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

There really is only one method D willing...They don't say...Rarely have we seen a person fail that has thoroughly followed one of our paths.....Or...There Are some solutions.....Stick with the text...You'll be alright. I hear some crazy stuff in meetings also...That's where the slogan...Take what you want and leave the rest comes from. Hope you stick around....And ask questions....There are no stupid questions....And I found out the answers were in the book. If you get fed anything else....I'd leave it.

Sober Strummer · Senior Member

A good link for important things the big book plainly says we must do! The Big Book Must List! http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa103musts.html

RubyTues · MIP Old Timer

d_willing wrote:
After reading through some of these posts, I may have a real hard time staying sober reading this board, this is not really what I need to be reading to stay sober. Showing people what has worked for you to get and stay sober is wonderful, but insulting each others methods sucks, I would be afraid to write anything now for fear of being told I was stupid and know nothing. I know the steps are the answer but I also like to hear other ESH. I guess i'll just stick with my meetings and say the heck with this board. It was great finding this board in the beginning, but I get tense reading it now. Just some words from a newcomer.
D

-- Edited by d_willing on Monday 9th of December 2013 09:58:20 AM

Thanks for posting this, d_willing. I have been worried about this. This board is an amazing support for people, and I don't see the point in pissing contests about who has the best method of sobriety or the most exact knowledge of the Big Book. We are all sober today. Something is working. I hope you'll stick around.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Sorry Dwillng - I picked up on this too. Tried to squash it but was overrun...

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Not real sure what you're trying to squash. I came into AA willing to go to any length to get what these people had. I was beaten and broken. I was told if I did EXACTLY what they did...I could recover. Where did I find out EXACTLY how they did it?....In the book. I may have heard things I didn't like...And I could have taken my ball and gone home....Which would have resulted in more punishment for me...Which I may not have lived through. Or I could follow the path laid out in that book. That's what I chose to do....I have no problem with anyone that talks about recovery as it's presented by those who started AA...I have a real problem when I hear ways to recover that are not in those directions. This is an AA site...If you want to find other ways to recover from this fatal progressive disease...Have at it....But I don't think it should be done here.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Whatever.

Sober Strummer · Senior Member

Face to face meetings are always best IMO. Anyone can come on a website and claim all sorts of things. This place is a great source of additional support and encouragement. I feel the occasional differences of opinion that escalates into little squabbles are part of real life. They happen a bit at F2F meetings on occasion. I don't recall such a spirited defense of not doing things per the Big Book in my home group. As PC said, whatever... But as long as we are still allowed to have an opinion, I will promote the Big Book as the way of recovery in AA. The other ways are viable for some, but outside issues IMO. Fighting against expressing support of the 12 & 12 as our way of doing things seems very unusual on an AA site. I am certainly finding out more on what people think. And that is fine. A big part of making it, staying sober for decades is taking what works and leaving the rest. No ill will. Just perspective. e-AA is a great site. There are many AA based sites to visit. If having to argue over the primary use of the AA program for staying sober bothers you, just search.

betterthanyesterday52 · MIP Old Timer

OH MY HIGHER POWER, WHAT HAVE I DONE???? I have had computer issues for last couple of days. Not sure if it is this board that has had issues or my server...just trying to catch up as having MIP withdrawals not being able to my "second and third meeting" here on this board. I was reading Pappy's and Mike's daily postings, Wren's story and others. Then I come to this posting.... I feel like I am back in grade school witnessing a "Yeah, who says so? " , "I say so!" brawl. Can't we all just get along ?

The following says it all, written by a newcomer, which is why I started this post. Had I known that this would happen I would have kept my big typing fingers shut! Sounds like there is some overblown ego here and I hope that by the time I have worked the steps I don't have the need to be as right as some of you do. I don't mean to offend anyone on this board but feel strongly that we all are here not only to stay sober but to help the newcomers not chase them away. Now I'll shut up my own ego and let d_willing finish.....

d_willing wrote:
After reading through some of these posts, I may have a real hard time staying sober reading this board, this is not really what I need to be reading to stay sober. Showing people what has worked for you to get and stay sober is wonderful, but insulting each others methods sucks, I would be afraid to write anything now for fear of being told I was stupid and know nothing. I know the steps are the answer but I also like to hear other ESH. I guess i'll just stick with my meetings and say the heck with this board. It was great finding this board in the beginning, but I get tense reading it now. Just some words from a newcomer.
D

-- Edited by d_willing on Monday 9th of December 2013 09:58:20 AM

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

betterthanyesterday52 wrote:
I feel like I am back in grade school witnessing a "Yeah, who says so? " , "I say so!" brawl. Can't we all just get along ?

I get along with these people fine BTY...If it wasn't for the fact that I've watched enough people die from this disease...I probably wouldn't give a damn. But I do. I'm not saying my way is right....I'm saying what's written in that book is right....And if I ever deviate from what it says...I want to hear about it. It's not just here for me...I was in a meeting last week and someone had been talking about the steps....I heard a guy share he'd been sober 8 months or something......He said...I don't need the steps...As a matter of fact I haven't even read the book...Maybe I should get it down from the shelf sometime and read it.....So I have to think about the suffering alcoholic coming into his first meeting....Do I let him leave with that as the message he takes home with him? No..I don't.

So I shared after him that AA is a 12 step program...The directions for how it works are written clearly in that book....That is the suggested program of recovery. That is how we recover. That while I'm happy just going to meetings is working for you....That's not what AA recovery is about....I've seen a lot of people not make it that took that approach....We have a wall full of pictures that prove it.

So am I arguing with that guy?....Or am I giving that newcomer something better to take home with him? I'll stick with the program as it's laid out in the book...That is what works....That's the only right way there is.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Stepchild - to the guy with the 8 months that said he'd never read the big book:

I would have said "Well, I have tried going to meetings and not working the steps and it did not work. When I got serious and worked the steps. The program saved my life!....(etc...add your own story)" Make it your esh and don't act like a teacher or the sponsor of all your peers in AA. I love your enthusiasm for the steps. I wish it came across more as your ESH so you were able to attract others and not make them feel preached to. You don't need to do that. Show people and tell them how it worked for you. I wouldn't say thinks like "Do it in the book the way it's written!!" You sound like you are scolding people and talking down to them as if they are idiots. So again, your enthusiam is amazing but could you personalize your message more so others get where you are coming from? That is what people listen to and they cannot debate your ESH because it belongs to you.

For example, in another thread, a person asked how has AA saved your life? Your response was "Have you worked the steps?" You didn't even answer the question. How is AA working in your life? What has a sober life given you? Are the promises coming true for you? What are you working on now? Those are all things I'd like to know about you. So yes. Your message and what you have to say is absolutely valid, but I just personally would like to get a better feel of how the steps worked for you...how it changed you. What it was like and what it's like for you now. Hearing that stuff is going to make what you have to say so much more powerful rather than intellectualized arguments and quotes from the BB (quotes from the BB are great but better when you can say how you worked them into your life, how you life differently...)

I thought about this stepchild because I was getting annoyed and wondering WTF my problem was that I was bothered by someone enthusiastic by doing steps and working them quickly and thoroughly and also trying hard to follow what the BB says? Like...that's admirable and it's everything that is "right." Then I realized that in your zeal, you are not putting forth you personal ESH and that's where the whole "program of attraction" gets lost.

Remember there was a person here who made posts about facts and statistics and then would chime in to make challenging statements to people if he felt they were wrong but never ever shared personal details from hs own life? We both did not particularly dig that person. So take what you want from this and leave the rest (and I know I got my own issues too...believe me) - but for you, I would just want to see more of how it's working for you....how sobriety is playing out...what are you still working on? We need a face and examples behind the enthusiastic "Do what is in the book!!!" It sounds to me that you had to really humble yourself to follow those directions and just do what is in the book. I think people could benefit from hearing how you did that and kept doing it.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

pinkchip wrote:
It sounds to me that you had to really humble yourself to follow those directions and just do what is in the book. I think people could benefit from hearing how you did that and kept doing it.

Real simple...I got my ass kicked by alcohol bad enough I did what people that had done what was in that book told me I should do.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

It was kind of like this.

Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on spiritual matters as we had tried to be on other questions. In this respect alcohol was a great persuader. It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness.

BB pg 48

betterthanyesterday52 · MIP Old Timer

Stepchild,
I think you have an enormous amount of knowledge about the program and how it works. I think newcomers who read your postings get a pretty good overview of AA. I know I have and I have thought to myself "This guy really knows his stuff and I wish I knew as much as he does about AA". You have helped me a lot and I really appreciate it. I also think that I have the right not to believe in any of this and think that AA'ers are a bunch of crazies and I can not work the steps and do it on my own, which I have thought in the past and and I always always would just go out and start drinking again. That's on me and my messed up mind. With my extremely limited amount of knowledge, I try to help the newcomers by letting them know that AA is working for me and to throw my little tid-bits of info their way. That's it because I cannot refer to the BB in depth because I am still learning it myself and don't feel I should do that when I don't know and understand it myself like you and the other oldtimers. I have decided if a newcomer starts debating and putting AA down, then they are just trying to make excuses and are not at the point where they are truly wanting to quit drinking and beyond my help. They are the ones I see pick up a white chip, a very few pick up a 30 day chip, but rarely see them get beyond that. It is very sad. I have heard about a heck of a lot of people with 5, 10 even 20 years of sobriety going out and at least for me, that is even sadder. I try to remember that I can go out anytime and I have to focus on me and my own sobriety. I'd love everyone to be sober. But I cannot save the world and there are some that will choose to drink themselves to death no matter how much we try to help them.
(((((stepchild)))))))

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

It's not a matter of knowing it BTY...It's a matter of doing it. I try and carry the message that's in the book...And that is this.

The tremendous fact for every one of us is that we have discovered a common solution. We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree, and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action. This is the great news this book carries to those who suffer from alcoholism.

BB pg 17

I think one of the reasons I like to quote from the book is most people are too lazy to read it....Do you know how to hide money from an alcoholic BTY?....Slip it in the Big Book.

Sober Strummer · Senior Member

The chapter to Wives talks about an attitude to deal with people drinking again. I like that chapter. and im not a wife :) but I also feel the pain when friends choose to drink. This is from pg. 120. Your husband will see at once that he must redouble his spiritual activities if he expects to survive. You need not remind him of his spiritual deficiencyâhe will know of it.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

I had a friend go back out after 4 years...I've had a few of them go back out BTY...One is dead. But the one with four years flat out told me...I just stopped doing what I was supposed to be doing. Nothing more. I have to look at it like those that don't get this...Simply don't do it. Those that have it and give it away....Simply stopped doing it. No other explanation.

Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program.....

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

What was the thingy you use to look up the quotes you want from the big book again stepchild? I've been searching for it all morning and can't find it - then I finally realized I'm like my husband with asking for directions lol... I could just ask!!!

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

justadrunk wrote:
What was the thingy you use to look up the quotes you want from the big book again stepchild? I've been searching for it all morning and can't find it - then I finally realized I'm like my husband with asking for directions lol... I could just ask!!!

It's a Big Book online...It just allows you to search for words or phrases...It's handy.

http://anonpress.org/bb/

It also takes you to where each step is in the book.

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

Thank YOU :)

betterthanyesterday52 · MIP Old Timer

"Do you know how to hide money from an alcoholic BTY?....Slip it in the Big Book."........Big LOL, there, stepchild! I am afraid I am guilty of not reading too much of the BB myself because I was too lazy....until I got a sponsor.

I am sorry about the friends of yours going out and one of them dying. How tragic. I haven't been in AA long enough to have that happen yet. I have heard others in the rooms talk about it and I guess I may come across as sounding selfish but I really will be heartbroken, as I feel a closeness to quite a few people in the meetings I go to and just cannot imagine any of them dying. I lost my dad due to alcoholism and it is so painful for family and friends to go through losing someone and I think even moreso when it could have been prevented.

And I am still "lazy". I would like to think I would look up and use that BB quotation site you gave above, but I enjoy reading your responses to other posters besides the BB quotes.