I really believe the greatest gift I was ever given....And I was able to live long enough to be able to receive it....Was the gift of desperation. As they say in the book...Some of us had to be beaten to a state of reasonableness....And that alcohol was the great persuader. I know I wasn't ready...Until I was ready....Until I was reasonable. I think the the fact that they even register here....Or open the door to an AA meeting....is a good start towards reasonableness.....And I pray they receive that gift...That many of us were blessed with....And they come back with it.

Aloha Better, hold on to the empathy and compassion.  Those are two emotions not usually found in an alcoholics tool chest and they appear very foreign to the self centered personality of a practicing alcoholic.   Hold on to those and remember this is a "We" program always..."We" do this together and get farthest as a "We" than we ever could as an "I".  "We" gather here at MIP and in the rooms and on the streets and in the markets and many other places and the spirit of recovery grows and grows even while others fall away.  When they fall away from us I recite in my mind, my spirit, my emotions and behavior, "This is a cunning, powerful and baffling disease and I am absolutely powerless over it without the fellowship; worldwide, of AA and the Al-Anon Family Groups.  I myself am on borrowed time allowed me by my Higher Power with the mutual acknowledgement that I live within this program and pass it on where ever and when ever directed without reluctance as directed and then turn the outcome over to the other man or woman and their relationship with the program and a Higher Power.  If and when they return to the rooms and remark "You're still here" I smile because I can and then I ask is there something I can do for/with you?  I purposely keep myself ignorant about what is or what maybe happening to this fellow or that in favor of the awareness that if I was meant to know I will be allowed to.  I don't comisserate over unvalidated fears anymore.  I won't entertain "F alse  E vidence  A ppearing  R eal" now.  I did that when I drank and now I don't drink.  God is...  Thanks for the reminders on compassion and empathy.  I can always use the practice.   

pinkchip wrote:

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I would not say you are all over the map.

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Well I hope that didn't come across as harsh...But I care for BTY much like she cares for these people that come and go. It concerns me when I hear someone speaking of making amends and working on charactor defects when she's yet to put pen to paper on a fourth step. Correct me if I'm wrong BTY....And I'm not trying to be mean about this. I'm just curious about an honest answer...Do you have a fear of taking that fourth step? You certainly wouldn't be alone.

I mean they put things like this in the book for a reason....

If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it-then you are ready to take certain steps.

At some of these we balked. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.

You say you've tried this AA thing a few times....Have you ever started a fourth step before?....Its a beautiful step.....I look at it as a gateway to freedom...The truth will set you free step. Fearless and thorough from the very start. I've seen so many people balk at this step....And I'm guessing they did too...Or they wouldn't be begging of you. The reason they wrote that book?....They just wanted you to have what they had.

If that's the case...Talk to your sponsor about it...Talk to other female AA's that have done it....Privately in your group or by PM here. If I'm wrong....Disregard what I've said and please accept my apology.....I just want nothing more than to see you stay in AA this time for good. The way we recover...Is taking the steps.

The thing is BTY - you are doing what you need to do for you - by doing JUST THAT - you are helping newcomers. We have no control over other alcoholics. We didn't cause their disease, we can't control it - and we can't cure it. Just like you are doing what YOU need to do - they will have to do what they need to do on HP's watch - not mine - or yours - or king koopa AA with 50 yrs of sobriety. No one person can get another person sober. If we think we can - we have work to do on our own ego. Focusing on being the very best you can be to YOU - allows you to continue being a source of inspiration for others by letting HP work through you.

In FACT - the MORE you do for others, the less they get to do what they actually NEED to do for themselves. If I follow people around, shove my ideas down their throat, force them through the steps, hound them about meetings - etc etc etc - I am not allowing them the opportunity to do all the things necessary to build a healthy self esteem, self worth, self respect and feel the value that HP has for them in their life. When we do 'this thing' - we do it for us... not because someone is making us.  Then we get to look back and be like "I did it = yeah for me!"  And thus begins the building blocks for the self esteem, worth, respect that HP wants for us - and we can then be most useful to Him.

When other people do too much of it for us - that's when we're set up for another drink IMO. While I whole heartily believe in the steps, sponsorship, the big book and living the principles, for me to think I could ever do anything other than be an example of how those things are working in my life to anyone else is just part of my disease and character flaw. I never need to be a teacher here. I never need to follow people around and bug them about what they're doing and not doing. All I need to do is talk about how this is working for me, and be an example of the peace and serenity that has come as a result of these things. This disease will beat you down to the point where you must listen or die. If I try and stop that process from happening, I have issues of my own to deal with because I must think I'm God again! I need to learn new behaviors to survive now - not repeat old ones essentially swapping addictions by thinking I'm going to now save the world.

People talk about service service service. I love service. But I don't need it to live. If I'm on a desert island, and there is no service work for me to do - and there is a crate of booze washed up - will I drink????? No. There is much more to my recovery than just being of service to others. There are many times that I can't do service in AA because my family life counts too. Will I drink? No. I have my whole life to be of service. Right now - my children are living their only childhood. I need to be here for it and not out in AA doing whatever I want just like I did when I was drinking.

I can't swap addictions like that. I believe HP will keep me protected from that first drink if I continue making healthy balanced choices and seeking His will for my life. I love doing for others, it makes me feel great, but if I NEED it to fill a void - something is wrong. I'm just trying to fill that old void up again with something else, and I need to heal that void in the steps, and do service because I am so in love with the life HP has here for me, that I want to make the world and all He's offered me in it - a kinder place. There must be balance in everything I do. If I only give - and never take - I'm not treating me how HP wants me to be treating me to be of maximum service when I do have the real opportunity to be useful for Him. Most likely, if I'm ALL service - I'm spinning my wheels and running on 'E' because I'm scared of that first drink. I've been there - but I'm NOT today. I'm not scared of that first drink honestly. I have no need to be. This program works so well when it's in balance with all aspects, that my drink problem has been removed as if it never existed. If I continue to make healthy choices for me - and others as a byproduct - I will never have to forget where I could go if I pick up another 'ism'.

It's very tempting to do it all for others - and I HAVE done these things and this chasing, just tried SO hard to get people to have what I have and want what I want - but that is just another aspect of my disease... thinking I know what's best for anyone else is controlling and a character defect. Only God can remove this defect, and I must be entirely ready - and then ask Him to guide me away from this in steps 6 & 7.


For now, remember your only job is to make the best possible choices for yourself - treat yourself how a loving God would want their child to treat their self, and continue to walk this path with us to the happy destiny that you deserve. If you don't feel like you deserve it yet - then keep coming back until you do. Once you know that HP has made you exactly how He needs you, and you deserve the life he has dreamed of for you - you will be a shining example to others, and they will naturally just want what you've got. And that's how it WORKS.

justadrunk....You brought up some great points and I really appreciate them....Just to clarify how I feel about my sobriety..... I want to share that my sobriety is my main focus, so I feel I am taking care of myself, with an added bonus.... I really am beginning to like who I am now instead of hating myself all the time. I know I have no control over anyone else and their drinking. No one had any control over my drinking. I have more concern for other people, especially recovering alcoholics like me, because I can relate to them. I haven't been concerned for anyone but myself for the longest time. Also, I would rather be doing service work in AA and being around other recovering alcoholics, and being helpful, than having more time on my hands which may lead to me to taking a drink and wasting the rest of my life and dying of this disease. I don't have a family anymore like you do. If I did I am sure there is no way I could spend so much time doing service work, on this board, etc.. I do have the time now and doing service work helps me feel good about myself. I do have some ego issues. Hopefully working the steps with my sponsor will help me with this, but for now I haven't worked the steps and realize I have a long way to go and am just doing what I feel I need to do to stay sober. Again, thank you for sharing and I appreciate you bringing these things to my attention.

justadrunk wrote:

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 In FACT - the MORE you do for others, the less they get to do what they actually NEED to do for themselves. If I follow people around, shove my ideas down their throat, force them through the steps, hound them about meetings - etc etc etc - I am not allowing them the opportunity to do all the things necessary to build a healthy self esteem, self worth, self respect and feel the value that HP has for them in their life. When we do 'this thing' - we do it for us... not because someone is making us.  Then we get to look back and be like "I did it = yeah for me!"  And thus begins the building blocks for the self esteem, worth, respect that HP wants for us - and we can then be most useful to Him.

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I have to disagree with this...The message I carry is the one in the book. You have to wonder why they word the directions as they do....

Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventures before and after make clear three pertinent ideas:

(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.

Being convinced, we were at Step Three, which is that we decided to turn our will and our life over to God as we understood Him. Just what do we mean by that, and just what do we do?

If you are convinced of those 3 ideas...Which they make real clear...You've done the first two steps. Then they explain in a couple of pages how it doesn't work when we are playing God...We have a new director...A new manager. How we must have God's help to rid ourselves of this selfishness....Which will kill us if we don't. We say the 3rd step prayer...And what do they tell us?

Though our decision was a vital and crucial step, it could have little permanent effect unless at once followed by a strenuous effort to face, and to be rid of, the things in ourselves which had been blocking us. Our liquor was but a symptom. So we had to get down to causes and conditions.

Next we launched out on a course of vigorous action, the first step of which is a personal housecleaning,

I don't see anything here that says do it on your own time?

How about step five?

When we decide who is to hear our story, we waste no time. We have a written inventory and we are prepared for a long talk. 

Step six

Returning home we find a place where we can be quiet for an hour, carefully reviewing what we have done. We thank God from the bottom of our heart that we know Him better. Taking this book down from our shelf we turn to the page which contains the twelve steps. Carefully reading the first five proposals we ask if we have omitted anything, for we are building an arch through which we shall walk a free man at last. Is our work solid so far? Are the stones properly in place? Have we skimped on the cement put into the foundation? Have we tried to make mortar without sand?

They say we spend an hour on it. To make sure we aren't holding anything back on the first 5 steps.

Step seven

Are we now ready to let God remove from us all the things which we have admitted are objectionable? Can He now take them all - every one? If we still cling to something we will not let go, we ask God to help us be willing.

When ready, we say something like this: "My Creator, I am now willing that you should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that you now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do your bidding. Amen." We have then completed Step Seven.

Step eight

Now we need more action, without which we find that "Faith without works is dead." Let's look at Steps Eight and Nine. We have a list of all persons we have harmed and to whom we are willing to make amends. We made it when we took inventory. 

We have the list...When should we start step nine?

Now we go out to our fellows and repair the damage done in the past.

I really have to wonder when I hear people say what speed you should take these steps....What do the directions say?.....What do they mean when they say....Thoroughly follow our path?

From the forward...

To show other alcoholics PRECISELY HOW WE HAVE RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book. 

Precisely how they did it.....I would follow the time frame they laid out in the book...That seems to be the one that works. And they seem to have gone out of there way to show a little sense of urgency here....There must be something to that.

Sober Strummer wrote:

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The Big Book feels like it was inspired by my Higher Power to speak exactly to me.

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 I felt the same way...And I listened.

The tremendous fact for every one of us is that we have discovered a common solution. We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree, and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action. This is the great news this book carries to those who suffer from alcoholism.

BB pg 17

I absolutely agree....With everything in it.

chris wrote:

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I worked on the first 3 steps of the program for probably the first 3 years I was in AA. This is the pace I needed to go at. When I was ready, I started the 4th step and it went pretty quickly from there. I'm in this for the long haul, and the first few years in, I did a ton of service work for several groups. There's no timetable that I'm aware of to get the steps done. It worked for me.

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I'm sure there are a lot of people that are dead that tried that chris.....I would imagine if I had you for a sponsor...I may be dead too. I'm in it for the long haul also....And I see a timetable in that book....And it sure ain't yours. I'm glad it worked for you....It wouldn't have worked for me. If you can show me one place in the book that says you should do that...I'll be glad to agree with you. People die with advice like that....

Stepchild wrote:

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chris wrote:

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I worked on the first 3 steps of the program for probably the first 3 years I was in AA. This is the pace I needed to go at. When I was ready, I started the 4th step and it went pretty quickly from there. I'm in this for the long haul, and the first few years in, I did a ton of service work for several groups. There's no timetable that I'm aware of to get the steps done. It worked for me.

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I'm sure there are a lot of people that are dead that tried that chris.....I would imagine if I had you for a sponsor...I may be dead too. I'm in it for the long haul also....And I see a timetable in that book....And it sure ain't yours. I'm glad it worked for you....It wouldn't have worked for me. If you can show me one place in the book that says you should do that...I'll be glad to agree with you. People die with advice like that....

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 Thank you for setting me straight while thumping your BB at me.  I was not giving anyone advice, nor trying to kill anyone.  I posted my personal experience,  which I guess I will keep to myself in the future and let people with a much better quality of sobriety, such as yourself, dole out advice.

Amen Mike H. I think the point being Chris....A lot of us hopeless alcoholics look for an easier softer way...Maybe a newcomer thinks 3 years for three steps is an acceptable approach....I too have a friend that went nine months without starting the steps...Due to his sponsor holding him back...He shares in meetings he was ready to put a bullet in his head....He found a different sponsor...Worked the steps as laid out in the book and today is happy, joyous and free...Celebrating 10 years of continuous sobriety. What I share is from the Big Book...The one that shows precisely how they...And I....Recovered. If that's thumping it at you...I'm sorry. That's the path....We rarely fail....If we thoroughly follow it. If the book said to diddle around for 3 years before getting Into Action...Believe me....I would have done it.

The people in AA knew my ass was on fire and I needed to get to God and get to God quick, or I was going to die from this disease.  Worse would be living in the mist of it for another 20 years, in utter pain, misery, imprisonment, homeless, completely alone, full of fear, shame and guilt... I didn't have time to sit around with people who would have tried to put my disease on hold, taking our time to work the 12 steps... they pushed me, pulled me.. stood behind me, in front of me, beside me... and I was through the first 9 steps in 7 weeks.  If they had not done this for me, I would not have stayed sober and any sobriety I had would have been miserable.  I already tried sitting in the rooms without working the program.  Felt like I was sitting there doing time, dying on the inside, until the internal condition got so bad I had to go back out in order to stay a live!   

This month, on the 21st I will celebrate the gift of 24 years of continuous, happy, joyous and free sobriety.  What a blessing and a gift those people were to me, who loved me enough not to let me die because they didn't have the time or want to spend the time to work with me  back then.  I am ever so grateful they were here... and didn't tell, me.. "we'll take our time with you, go through this stuff slowly with you".  I didn't have any time left... the clock on my disease was ticking pretty fast.  It was on a mission.  To get me back out there and burn my life to the ground ... AGAIN.

I remember I was still shaking, sweating.. only 3 days sober... and this man called me and said, "I'm going to pick you up to help me set up the chairs for the meeting at the YMCA tonight."  I told him, "I'm not doing very good, my whole body is shaking, I am sweating so much.. and I got a case of the shits going on."... his reply was.."well, I will get there early to pick you up because it will take you a little bit of time to set those chairs up in that condition!" (Moved right into service work!)  The name of that group was called The Seekers.  "God could and would if he were sought."  Today I am still a seeker.. and seeking God's Will in all my affairs.

They didn't pussy foot around with me... they saved my life, not my feelings.

John

Not crazy about the message you carry PC...My recovery goes more along the lines of John's share.

I didn't progress onto step 4 until I had over 1 year sober. It was better for me that way.

Maybe it was...But it goes against everything they say in that book...How they did it. I'd rather have a sponsor with 9 months that does it by the book than one with 20 years that would take me down that path. I seriously would be dead with that approach.

Question: When should I work the steps?

Answer: When do you want to get better? If you want to get better now...Work the steps now. If you want to get better later...Postpone it and get better later...But you'll probably drink...And for us...To drink is to die.

Step 3...Is a decision we make. A yes or no answer.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Am I going to turn my will....Which are my thoughts...And my life....Which is the action I take on those thoughts.....Over to the the care and direction of God...As I understand what God is to me. Do I trust God enough to guide my life?.....Or am I going to continue to run the show...Right into the gutter...As I have been doing...Tearing up my life and the life of everyone around me....What is my choice? Do I need a year to figure that out? I need to face and be rid of what is blocking me from God....From good....From life. I need to get down to causes and conditions.....Am I going to work steps 4 through 9 or not? Do I want those promises to happen for me?....Should I wait a year to get them?

It didn't take me long to figure out the answer to this one.

That's the only requirement for membership RT...
The only requirement for being recovered is the steps.
You now how I look at this site RT?...I'm sure there are people that say...Man this guy is fanatical about those steps....I don't care what people think...If I could carry this message to one person...Whether registered on this site...Or someone just lurking in the backround reading...That there is a solution for a low bottom chronic alcoholic like I was...Wanting nothing more than to just check out of life...To make the effort...To study the book...Go to meetings...Find a sponsor to take them through them....Just one person....That would be pretty amazing...I don't think God as I understand Him...Would have a problem with that. When I go to meetings...I share about the solution....Just hoping and praying that one person hears it. Simple 12th step work...Nothing more.

I read all of the shared experiences here and look at the title of the thread and read again and then look back at my own experiences and of all of the rhetoric I am again reminded I'm glad there was a God often times when a "book thumper" was in my face not even knowing who I was or caring just telling me how it is.  It was God that kept me in my chair and brought me thru the rooms and doors I had to go thru in order to "come to understand"  HP knew who and what I was while the "thumper" and the "Nazi" (that was a term openly used when I was in recovery kindergarten) cared for nothing more than what "they" knew and how "they" saw it. Think ego disolves with time and the big book?  It wasn't the Big Book that held me in the rooms and a patient, loving God of my understanding who appears from an indigenous culture of my birth along with the disease of alcoholism. God did it inspite of the drive for submission.  Could I read?  A.D.D. and dislectic.  Could I understand? wasn't from the conus and didn't speak or hear with a twang.  Who and what kept me in my chair?  How did listening with my eyes profit me more than listening with my ears.  And it was my eyes I heard with because I became a watcher and listened.  There was as much noise and and insanity in the rooms of AA as there was in my family of origin.  EGOs...Easing God Out?  You betcha and I watched and followed the "walkers" and they let me cause I wanted what they had even with my disabilities.

I have faced death as a result of my compulsion and addiction to our chemical of choice.  I was constantly told "there's nothing wrong with you, God I wish I could drink like you".  I came into recovery convinced I didn't have a problem even after 3 toxic shocks.  I came into recovery not knowing and not knowing that I wasn't knowing and while my friends, family and spouses were telling me I wasn't the "Thumpers" were telling me I had to get in and do it their way.  

God has other ideas often when man is making plans.

One of the greatest questions my elder sponsor asked me when helping me to train my ego especially inside of the certainty that I was right always was..."Could you be wrong"?  When I could entertain a "yes" answer to that question...I started to get it.  My recovery therefore is a "God thing and only a God thing" and I'm sure the old timers have heard that statement specifically relating to AA.  So consider the question "Could I be wrong"? self directed.

I was 9 years alcohol free without the information about chemical, physical, emotional, mental and spiritual relapse before I took the assessment.  Based upon feedback from investigation of that assessment I was told that I knew what to do next.  I had been in the Al-Anon Family Groups all of that time and also a alcohol and substance abuse therapist in a major rehab when I was directed by the God of my understanding to do the assessment after I had done one with a soon to be new client.  It revealed that I was alcoholic because it revealed my overdoses and also that I could consume life threatening amounts of alcohol without seemingly being drunk.  It confirmed why my skin had been the sickly yellowish/greenish color up until 5 years after I had stopped drinking.  

Some people see alcoholics in a very small definitive picture...I have more experience than that and would have died anyway had I not been led along this path of recovery the way I was.

Before I stayed in the rooms of AA (I've been kicked out of meetings because I could not identify and only wanted to listen) I 12th stepped an under the influence alcoholic as a 5 year plus member of the Al-Anon Family Groups.  His HP and mine decided by chance that we should meet on the phone quite by co-incidence, because he called the wrong number to a place I was at and was handed the phone by a person who didn't know I was in program.  "Here I think this is for you" she said and gave me the phone and at the end of a short conversation the man on the other side said "Okay I won't take another drink until you get here".  I called AA Central and spoke to the District Rep who I knew about my perdicament; being an Al-Anon member and not a recovering alcoholic and he jumped my case and scolded me.  "How long have we known each other Jerry"? he asked and I told him.  "Have we not watched (eyes) each other work our recoveries"? I replied yes. "Has anyone ever told you that only an alcoholic should and can 12 step a drunk"?  I said "No" afraid of what that answer might bring me and he replied, "You've got a task to do".  I hung up and spoke with my HP hoping that HP could trump what I just was told and my car turned on to the freeway to go down to "Sin City" and walk thru a cadre of drug dealers and users some of which affirmed that the man I had talked to needed help immediately or he would not make it.  We spoke and he was grateful "That AA would do what needed to be done...send a recovering alcoholic to help another alcoholic".   He wanted me to drink with him and I did not. I left him dry and grateful.  He had the number for his rehab to come pick him up.  I don't know if that happened...only God knows all of it.  He helped me eventually get into AA.  I've been around since 1979...still dislectic, still ADD, now pretty much totally deaf, a remaining sponsoring founding member of my Saturday/Sunday home group right off the ocean my HP created for recovery.  I attend other groups and do additional service.  I have been described by the fellowship as "different" and I laugh because that doesn't mean I'm unable to live this program.   

I have witnessed so many miracles in both Al-Anon and AA that have come about stricly by the grace of God rather than any one remembered and repeated passage from our literature and still my 3rd Edition of Alcoholics Anonymous sits less than two feet from my key board.  Of all of the many bookmarks I have placed in this reader I still rely upon page 449 and Dr. Paul's lesson on acceptance.  There by is my lesson on humility.  Could I be wrong? Gratefully yes...I can now get out of the way of God.

Thanks for letting me share.  

I had no God when I came into AA...I was spiritually shot. Alcohol was my great persuader as they say....What kept me in those chairs was the the simple fact that I was beaten so bad that I couldn't take it anymore....Did God hand me that book when I was in rehab?....I believe so...It showed me how I could face and rid myself of what was blocking me from Him....That was my solution.....AA is not an organization with a book named after it....It's a book... With an organization named after it. Nazis...Thumpers.....I don't care what you call em....That path these original drunks put down on paper is the reason I'm alive today....And actually enjoying living for a change. And I'm glad I found a guy that understood it and thumped it down my throat....I couldn't afford to fail.

Stepchild as to your question? Have I worked the steps...read my share again.  Could you have done just this little part of my journey without it?   Only one of the earliest instructions I got when I arrived without awareness was "If you keep and open mind...you will find help".  Is openmindedness and willingness two of the necessary characteristics necessary to recovery?  A person with disabilities A.D.D., dyslexia and also O.D.D. above all things needs a Higher Power and openmindedness and willingness.  Read the share again...should you ask the question?  Do you have the ego to?   

Jerry F wrote:

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Stepchild as to your question? Have I worked the steps...read my share again.  Could you have done just this little part of my journey without it?   Only one of the earliest instructions I got when I arrived without awareness was "If you keep and open mind...you will find help".  Is openmindedness and willingness two of the necessary characteristics necessary to recovery?  A person with disabilities A.D.D., dyslexia and also O.D.D. above all things needs a Higher Power and openmindedness and willingness.  Read the share again...should you ask the question?  Do you have the ego to?   

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You say the Thumpers were telling you to do it their way...I would assume that's the way it's laid out in the book?....And that God is what kept you in those chairs?...I mean...I could probably say that now...Maybe I couldn't....What about those of us where lack of power was our problem?...And we needed to go through that process to find that power.....I may not have the disabilities you have....But I was spiritually a very sick person....I listened to the thumpers that said to do it their way....If it was in the book...I believed it....And I still do.

pinkchip wrote:

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For me, I needed to learn from people. I needed to copy what recovering alcoholics were DOING. And yes, that did include Big Book study and and steps (albeit - I needed to change sponsors to really work the steps in year 2) but...It was the people that kept me in AA. Not surprising, after a career in human services that I am a people person. At first, the rooms and the people in them were my higher power. I wouldn't have bought into the book if not for the people. I probably would have seen AA as more fanatical and full of zealots if people didn't demonstrate sober living rather than just put a book in front of me. I recognize that now I pretty much am an AA fanatic but I cool with that lol. It was a much better trade off than I could have imagined.

This is also getting into a hairsplitting thing because: Yes, I was learning from people who generally had worked the steps or were trying to abide by the principles and writings of the BB so, in essence, it's still the steps and the book.

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 I'll buy that...And Tom....Nice share.

justadrunk wrote:

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One thing that really has me stumped is, if there is a 'right way' then why does alanon exist? Why don't they fold up the chairs and pick up on this right way "to be" for the alcoholic they have nearly killed themselves over trying to get sober? Why can't I get my father sober with this 'right way'? Can you please go to his house and be perfect AA for him so he can be sober for Christmas? I was hoping my children would get to know my real dad, and not the diseased one before he dies. Now I feel a lot of pressure to be doing this the right way or I will kill people while I'm going through this learning curve. That is a whole lot of responsibility and it makes me feel like crap to think I could actually kill people if I say or do 'the wrong' things while I'm getting the hang of this whole thing. Here I thought God was in charge and that was very comforting to me. Now that I know I can save people by being 'right' I'm not sure I can handle the pressure of being in AA anymore. This reminds me of how I felt growing up in an alcoholic home where I always had to 'be right' and be perfect or else no one would love me. Here in the program I thought there was an all loving God who loved me mistakes and all. Who was rooting for me to pick myself up and brush myself off and keep trying even while I was just learning... er... I mean "wrong"

 

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The only way I can answer you is this....

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.

If you can fail...Then there must be a wrong way.

Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.

If you can get a result of nil...Sounds like another wrong way.

Half measures availed us nothing.

If you can end up with nothing......There's one more.

They seem to make it pretty clear there is a right way and a wrong way to work the steps.....You notice in step 12 they take for granted we have followed the clear cut directions....And done precisely what they did to recover...Exactly what the book is about. They use those words...Precisely and exactly...Thoroughly...For a reason.

Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps

I don't think there is any doubt there are wrong ways to do it....Look at the success rate. But we don't have to live this program perfectly....With the exception of step one....We better get that one perfect.

No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints.

We just have to do the best we can JAD.

StPeteDean wrote:

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OMG, mega-thread. when I'm finished with the book I'm reading I'll come back to this one. :P

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 We'll be on the sequel by then.

pinkchip wrote:

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Not your enemy stepchild. That felt mighty disrespectful. Humility is a good thing. Btw, you chased someone off the board with your approach that you seem to think is so perfect. Pretty sure offended some others also though clearly said lots of helpful stuff too. 

Bleeding deacon is not something to aspire to.

-- Edited by pinkchip on Saturday 7th of December 2013 06:26:06 PM

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 I feel that people can speak for themselves.  We are all big kids, old enough to drink, that is...  :)

im not into fighting or that silliness.  But, in the spirit of friendly discussion, I do feel like there is a bit of mixing messages going on in your bit above.  Maybe it is the spirit of debate that blurs things.  If we were all at Waffle House having a coffee and chatting, it may be better.  I like face to face chats where you can see and hear the expression

I have known a few that were a little more liberal in their interpretation of the big book.  They stayed sober.  But they did work the steps and the core points of the program.  I did not agree on the finer points with them, and that itself means very little.  They did serve and help the group grow.  Again, here we can't see that. So many ways the Internet falls short.

On the idea of Stepchild running someone off....  I like his continual focus on the main text.   I leave boards that do not stick to the text.  So it goes both ways.  I stick with the crowd that knows and sticks to the Big Book.  Groups that don't are a red flag to leave.  But I have seen so many people get offended in AA groups.  It's almost like a gathering of emotionally damaged people with a selfish streak.  That is why anyone with a coffee pot and a resentment can start a new AA meeting.   :)

This idea of the thin skinned newcomer is funny.  They have been thru hell.  Most of it self imposed.  They are in a daze, in pain, looking for the hope that lives in the truth and power of the program of AA.  Standing for the truth is a good thing.  I know for me that the AA pill was hard to swallow.   It required humility and defeat of all self sufficiency.  So taking the harsh truth is the way it went....  Watering it down to seem more pleasant is a disservice to any newcomer.  

Of course we share the message with compassion, but it really is a tough message.  

justadrunk wrote:

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Nope not a disservice at all. In alanon we say - say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it mean.

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Excellent. That goes well with "Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? Don't say it if it isn't at least two of those three."

I may put these two sayings on post-it notes on my laptop display when I'm on conference calls with those... um... valued co-workers whose ideas are different from mine.