Alcoholism is a progressive disease ... it manifests itself differently for different folks ... when I was in my 30's, I could drink 2 or 3 and be tired enough at the end of the day, I would simply start nodding off and go to bed ... and then come the weekend, I'd go fishing or something and go completely off the deep end ... mostly I stayed 'moderate' through the week because of my job ... ... ... and when I went 'bowling', we all drank ... well, it was called the Budweiser League and the pitches of beer flowed freely ...
I never considered myself 'alcoholic' back then, even though I now know, I was in it's grip ... as I got into my 40's, my job became less important and alcohol became my #1 priority ... as George Carlin said, in the beginning it was great, relaxing and even inspirational ... we drank to enjoy it and had very little pain associated with it ... but as the progressive illness got stronger, we began to experience much less joy with drinking and much more pain ... and when the pain starts 'out-weighing' the pleasure, we seek help to do something, cause we damn sure cannot stop on our own ...
I suspect, from your share, that the disease is trying its best to convince you that you don't have a problem ... and I also suspect you are at a 'turning point' ... meaning that you are starting to see more 'negative' consequences to your drinking than before ... that it isn't as 'fun' as it used to be ...
AA screwed up any pleasure I once had for drinking ... AA taught me there was a way out, a solution ... that I didn't have to drink if I really wanted to quit ... and I never ever enjoyed it after learning that ... and I went on to drink 13 more years ... and only when I very nearly died, did I surrender to the program ...
P.S. I pray you don't go as far as I did toward killing yourself before you see that you need to work the program ... don't kid yourself, it (the disease) WILL get stronger and harder to defeat ...
-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Wednesday 24th of July 2013 01:49:52 PM
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
I have heard the phenomenon of craving described as the following: once you take the first drink, you have no ability to determine how many will follow. Could be 3, could be 15, depending on what day you catch us. I have also heard it described as the following: once you take the first drink, you always keep drinking to the max. The first is true for me. Some nights I had 3. Others I went WAY over the mark. It was unpredictable. Which description is more accurate of the alcoholic? The unpredictability description or the always drinking to the max description. I think my diseased thinking wants to disqualify me because some nights I didn't always drink to the max...and that makes me think I should drink again just to see exactly what is true for me.
Thanks in advance for your feedback! I love this forum. I can't call anyone right now, so this is my reaching out.
You can call people. You just won't. Anyhow, alcoholism is insideous and progressive so while the first drink didn't always cause me drinking till I passed out, that became more and more frequent over time as I would bet it would with you.
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I have heard the phenomenon of craving described as the following: once you take the first drink, you have no ability to determine how many will follow. Could be 3, could be 15, depending on what day you catch us. I have also heard it described as the following: once you take the first drink, you always keep drinking to the max. The first is true for me. Some nights I had 3. Others I went WAY over the mark. It was unpredictable. Which description is more accurate of the alcoholic? The unpredictability description or the always drinking to the max description. I think my diseased thinking wants to disqualify me because some nights I didn't always drink to the max...and that makes me think I should drink again just to see exactly what is true for me.
Thanks in advance for your feedback! I love this forum. I can't call anyone right now, so this is my reaching out.
Good question. The concept of craving was introduced by Dr. Silkworth, in the Doctor's Opinion in the Big Book. My take of what he describes there is that for a person who is an alcoholic who has one drink, there will be started a physical need for another drink. The craving most often gets satisfied by the alcoholic since he will simply find a way to get the craved drink. Then follows craving for the next drink and this cycle continues until the alcoholic can drink no more, for a given drinking event.
Sometimes, however, the alcoholic will be unable to have that second drink for some reason. Silkworth's concept implies that the craving is still there, latent, waiting for the next opportunity of securing the next drink.
Silkworth says that only alcoholics have the symptom of craving. And he says that all alcoholics have it.
It's based on another notion by Silkworth, that "Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol...[and] are restless...unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort of" more drinks.
You might read the Doctor's Opinion on page xxv of the Big Book. It is a powerful and convincing part of the book.
Keep asking questions if you have them, poi77.
pinkchip wrote:
You can call people. You just won't. Anyhow, alcoholism is ...
I'm not sure I understand why you want to know the difference between the two definitions of craving, they both describe alcoholic drinking. Either way you have a problem on your hands.
For me 375ml of brandy every night put me into oblivion. That being the case, what still frightened me was the increasing tolerance for alcohol, thus the progression was continuing. The one day I saw a man drink methylated spirits on the street and pass into oblivion and I thought to myself, that I must try that experiment some day. Therefore I was drinking for the effect and the disease had already set in. I tried the convincer one more time after coming into AA and I proved that I was a real alcoholic and any chance of becoming a moderate drinker was out of the question. To continue any further experimentation would be just plain insanity.
We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself, Step over to the nearest barroom and try some controlled drinking. Try to drink and stop abruptly. Try it more than once. It will not take long for you to decide, if you are honest with yourself about it. It may be worth a bad case of jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition.
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
"We hope we have made clear the distinction between the alcoholic and the nonalcoholic. If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer."
Little control could mean unreliable control or unable to guarantee control at all times. I didn't always drink to the max, but I could never guarantee that I wouldn't.
I don't really know but the flavor of the post reads more like "I am too ashamed to call anyone." Barring that the poster is not without ears, hands, a mouth...there is a way to use the phone and get to a meeting. The biggest prison alcohol had me in was when I thought I could not reach out for help or go to an actual meeting out of fear. I suppose challenging the use of can't was blunt but maybe "not ready" would be more accurate.
So..Tanin: Do you believe the OP incapaple of working a phone? I am curious also.
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You can call people. You just won't. Anyhow, alcoholism is ...
I'm curious as this to how you know this?
I don't really know but the flavor of the post reads more like "I am too ashamed to call anyone." Barring that the poster is not without ears, hands, a mouth...there is a way to use the phone and get to a meeting. The biggest prison alcohol had me in was when I thought I could not reach out for help or go to an actual meeting out of fear. I suppose challenging the use of can't was blunt but maybe "not ready" would be more accurate.
So..Tanin: Do you believe the OP incapaple of working a phone? I am curious also.
I don't see the flavor you see. I see a simple, sincerely delivered question about craving.
The important part of his post was the question about craving. You elected to pick out and peck on his failure to call someone instead of posting here.
I think you were out of line, PC. I think you should apologize to this beginner.
Poi77, an addict, is trying to see if he is an alcoholic too. Poi posted a similar thread a while ago:
I think the choice by Poi to post here instead of calling somebody makes your question of me moot. Poi just sought answers from a group that had helped him before and the question was presented to US. But my answer to yours is: I don't know. I would have answered the question as directly as I could and if interested in the "I can't call anyone right now? aspect, I would have asked "Why not?"
It's like Russian Roulette when you drink like that, in my opinion.
I had nights where I could drink in moderation, but then I had black out nights.
As my alcoholism progressed, I had less nights of moderation and more nights of black outs.
The craving was something that became uncontrollable as my disease progressed.
I did not want to play that game of Russian Roulette any longer with myself and create more wreckage for myself and my family.
Good luck with getting feedback here, I have found that I usually get the feedback I want from this forum. People who care to respond, do so with love and concern. It is that fellowship that I count on in my day to day life.
I think I could l care less what you think. You sound angry Tanin. Resentments are the number one offender. Better get back to work on those steps.
PC, I wonder if Tanin's posts were raising a legitimate concern.
If it was a legitimate issue with me that he had raised, and I reacted as you seemed to, perhaps now I might have two amends to make instead of just one.
I already stated I may have been blunt about the "you wont call" thing. I'm sorry if that was the case. There is and was a better way to say that meetings and the intergroup hotline are pretty much always there. Part of my bluntness was posting from my phone and not expressing myslf the sme way i would when able to type ten times faster. People coming into recovery are steeped in denial and that will hurt them. This poster did have similar questions months ago, stated willingness to do whatever it took to get sober and yet the statement is still that "I can't call anyone and this is my way of reaching out." Awesome to reach out in any way. This board is great but it doesn't replace meetings and a sponsor and stepwork. You could spend time answering questions about craving that are basically the disease still having a hold on the poster and convincing him he is not a real alcoholic or address what is stopping him from embracing the program that saved all our lives. I didn't get across that this was my focus when I said "you won't call." It came out sounding like me diminishing the posters capability to follow up on actual meetings and such rather than gently persuading them to work through those fears. For that I'm sorry to POI77.
For Tanin...yeah...could care less. He's a big boy with his own agenda and one that has resulted in getting banned from the board and edited by other moderators with zero amends ever and the same behavior still being exhibited. There will never be an ammends there. Ever. That is not a person that cares about my amends anyhow.
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As far as wrestling with labels of addict and alcoholic, one or both..the poster got a wealth of info on that in his last post. I know the general stance of NA is that alcohol is just another drug. In AA given the poster's described history even with just alcohol, I'm pretty confident that feedback at meetings would also be not to play with fire. If after a few months in the program and a person is wrestling with "can I still drink but just not drug?" I would still see that as developing from addict thinking and not having anyone to share that with after already going to meetings leads right back to my point which is not moot. Go to lots of NA and or AA meetings, get a sponsor, work the steps and reach out even more and you will have your question answered in the best way possible. Far better than any of us could guide you on the board even though your question is not an uncommon one I've heard in meetings.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
For Tanin...yeah...could care less. He's a big boy with his own agenda and one that has resulted in getting banned from the board and edited by other moderators with zero amends ever and the same behavior still being exhibited. There will never be an ammends there. Ever. That is not a person that cares about my amends anyhow.
I didn't even know he'd been banned. I do know know he likes to stir the pot. I'm not sure where coming on a recovery site to push peoples buttons falls into his program.....I'm just grateful I don't have to do that today.
Poi77, I convinced myself I wasn't an alcoholic for ages because I hung on that one fact: sometimes it was ok. Sometimes I would just have one drink. Sometimes I would have a thousand drinks. The thing was, I could never predict it. On nights when I blacked out, I never intended to have a million drinks. Like Pablomoses said, it was Russian Roulette. Some people might be ok living like that. In the end it caused me more pain than those nights I could have one drink were worth.
I agree, that was appropriate, given all the details shown above. We should be welcoming to our newcomers, not directive and argumentative.
pinkchip wrote:
For Tanin...yeah...could care less. He's a big boy with his own agenda and one that has resulted in getting banned from the board and edited by other moderators with zero amends ever and the same behavior still being exhibited. There will never be an ammends there. Ever. That is not a person that cares about my amends anyhow.
Res ipsa loquitur.
Compare to this post below about me, exactly one year ago, only two weeks after I joined this forum. PC, saying two things. First, that he was "annoyed" by the new member. Second, that it was OK for PC to be "annoying" but not someone else. Third, that he argued strenuously with other forum members he was "annoyed by."
Since then he has been using a heavy hand to suggest my banning. Then, when made a moderator, he unilaterally deleted posts i'd made that were not objectionable in any way other than they "annoyed" him.
He has been attacking, unfair, and has misused the moderator's power. He has failed to act within the spirit of the twelve Traditions.
I suggest that he give up his moderator position on this forum. He's not doing himself or the forum any good with his pattern of overreactions, these two posts being representative examples.
pinkchip wrote:
Hootch - I don't have to like everyone in AA. Never claimed to be a saint either. Yes - People annoy me. Yes this particular person annoys me. I'll get over it. Bad drivers annoy me...mosquitoes annoy me. It's all good. I argued like this with Linbaba and now I think he's cool beans. Half the time I go off all half cocked- I realize I'm just another bozo on the bus. Hell - I'm annoying. And I do realize I come off bigheaded and I don't know all that much. it is what it is. I would state the spiritual axiom here but if I misquoted it, I'd probably get my response bolded and scolded by a nitpicky troll.
Anyhoo... It's like when you decide to dance with a 500lb gorilla - you might be the one that chooses when the dancing starts but it'll be your lucky day when you get to decide when the dancing ends.
Can I suggest taking this arguing stuff to another thread? If I was a newcomer and I came in and saw this on a topic I needed help with I would be totally turned off.
It take you all day to come up with that Tanin? Pretty lame. Why don't you stalk him on another site? Maybe you can come up with something better. I don't know what your problem is Tanin.....But you got some issues. I've left this site once because I got sick of your BS....I'm about ready to do it again.
Emmie - these are real people dealing with reality - living life on life's terms. People are human and imperfect - and watching how people handle conflict is important for us newer ones. I needed to learn from this sort of thing - what TO DO - and what NOT TO do.
The important thing to remember is God has us all where we are supposed to be - learning the lessons we need to learn. There is a plan - and we will see it someday if we are patient enough.
It's a new day - we all have a clean slate if we're working the steps. We all have the ability to pray for those we have resentments toward, and change our thought process and attitude (the only real thing we have control of). This sort of thing is part of life - and no one had to drink over it. This is still an example of how we are all certainly miracles in PROGRESS> not miracles who are now perfect. Love to you Emmie : )
-- Edited by justadrunk on Saturday 27th of July 2013 11:52:48 AM
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
Our culture craves comfort, the avoidance of pain, easy projects, nothing but success, leisure time, entertainment, fun hobbies, and anything else that can fit under the umbrella of "smooth sailing."
When things don't go righta slip on ice, conflict with a loved one, a demanding and troublesome boss, a leaky roof, car trouble, financial setbacksthere is a prevailing attitude of surprised anger and resentment, a strong sense that life is unfair and cruel.
Paul, a survivor of every sort of calamity, challenges this mindset. Not only are difficulties inevitable, but they become opportunities to growand even become catalysts for great things to happen. Are you convinced that all things work together for good in your life?
Accept discipline. Ask God to help you get the most out of the difficulties you encounter. You might feel pain for a moment, but the long-term rewards will be great.
Heavenly Father, I don't understand why bad things happen and especially don't understand how You can use them for good in my life; but You do. Thank You! Amen.
-- Edited by Tanin on Saturday 27th of July 2013 01:21:09 PM
Can I suggest taking this arguing stuff to another thread? If I was a newcomer and I came in and saw this on a topic I needed help with I would be totally turned off.
Thank you for saying this. I am not a newcomer to AA, but I am a newcomer to this board. I am not sure this is where I need to be right now.
I was thinking the exact same thing as JAD wrote. I am a newcomer; to this board and also to AA, and this thread doesn't drive me away at all. Just the opposite actually, it draws me in more, and makes me feel more comfortable. JAD is absolutely correct in saying "this is real life, real people, living life on lifes terms". This is an excellent thread; because life can get a little crazy at times. And as an aside...I'm a big fan of Pinkchip, this is a "for real" kind of person and I have learned a lot from his posts and messages.
Emmie - these are real people dealing with reality - living life on life's terms. People are human and imperfect - and watching how people handle conflict is important for us newer ones. I needed to learn from this sort of thing - what TO DO - and what NOT TO do.
The important thing to remember is God has us all where we are supposed to be - learning the lessons we need to learn. There is a plan - and we will see it someday if we are patient enough.
It's a new day - we all have a clean slate if we're working the steps. We all have the ability to pray for those we have resentments toward, and change our thought process and attitude (the only real thing we have control of). This sort of thing is part of life - and no one had to drink over it. This is still an example of how we are all certainly miracles in PROGRESS> not miracles who are now perfect. Love to you Emmie : )
Thanks for your kind words, JAD. It was simply that one reason I stopped visiting message boards elsewhere on the web (on other topics, not AA), was the arguing and often mean-spiritedness. Right now I'm in a bad place after a sad experience with a sponsor (my fault, not really the sponsor's). So "lively discussions" are not my thing right now. Not that these don't happen in AA - as my experiences with group conscience meetings will attest LOL.
-- Edited by justadrunk on Saturday 27th of July 2013 11:52:48 AM
Oops, sorry - my response to JAD did not quite get separated from his quote. Not sure what I did wrong! But anyhow, my response is the last paragraph in the previous post. :o)
You have all been tremendously helpful, thank you. I am realizing I am in fact powerless over alcohol. Thank you very much...and I appreciate everyone's honesty.
