So my question is this- is it appropriate to address the the potential offensive nature of these comments from these guys? And how would one do so in a tactful manner?
Sure it's appropriate. Remember, silence is acquiesence.
Just because someone is an "old-timer" or a spiritual guru doesn't mean that he doesn't say stupid stuff.
"Old-timers" don't have any special license to make offensive, sexist statements in AA. They don't have any special status. They're just drunks in recovery like everyone else.
-- Edited by Tanin on Wednesday 24th of April 2013 03:13:49 PM
The meeting I attend daily is a great mix of people from all walks of life. We have a lot of old timers whom I love to listen to, and learn a lot from. Unfortunately, there seems to be an undercurrent of sexism amounts these guys. They snicker and make comments when women, especially younger women share. There's this one guy who speaks at every meeting, who's probably in his late 70s with around 40 years of sobriety who usually has something derogatory to say... 'women should be looked at, not heard', 'women don't drink like I did', and yesterday? 'you'd be hard pressed to find a woman in this neighborhood with anything near intelligence'. Ok- I assume that's these outrageous comments as said in jest. How could they not be, really? I laugh pretty hard when he says these things, and he's usually smiling. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other what his intent is. If he's serious, he's only displaying his own lack of intelligence. Well, I've noticed that many others dont laugh. My friend that I attend this meeting with often is very offended by his comments. It's a fact- old men have strange senses of humor (no offense intended to any older gentlemen) that I actually generally enjoy. Not every woman I know agrees, however. So my question is this- is it appropriate to address the the potential offensive nature of these comments from these guys? And how would one do so in a tactful manner?
Hi Col, ... ... ... This is a potentially explosive subject ... we all have varying backgrounds and differing senses of our place, and others, in society ... comments made by young people or old timers can and often do reflect our 'up-bringing' ... these last few years in our society, we have migrated to a type society that gets offended at freakin everything ... with a lot of help from the ACLU and the NAACP and other extremely liberal groups, we find ourselves very limited in what is the 'proper' way to speak of or to someone (men, women, black, white, native this, or native that, Hispanic, etc.) ... references made 30 years ago that would not have offended anyone, today, will get you in deep sh!t ...
So don't be to quick to judge the old folks (me ... LOL) when we slip or intentionally use language of our past ... Seems to me over ninety percent of the people walking around today have some kind of 'chip' on their shoulders and are quick to be offended ... ... ...
You want to know how to address the "potential offensive nature of these comments" from those guys ... EASY, don't let it bother you nor take it personal ... We'll be dead in a few years and you can take our place and deal with the younger 'mind set' ... which, you may find hard to live with at times ...
Old people, me, are sometimes very 'frank' about saying it like it is ... if what we share is not received well by others, that's their problem, not ours ... this is not to say there aren't some out there saying things just to be hurtful or derogatory ... ... ... there are!
If I were to address this issue, as you asked, I would go to the person or persons outside of the group meeting, and simply say that you are 'bothered' by what they shared and why ... ... ... unless they've gone senile and can't comprehend what you're talking about, they will probably thank you for speaking up and speaking your mind ... without bringing the whole group in to judge ...
It's something to think about, for sure ... Good Luck, whatever you do or don't do ...
Love ya and God Bless, Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Yes - how others treat you is a reflection of them - not you : )
However, we start to feel a little self esteem and self worth, and feel we deserve better treatment or should stand up for ourselves.
I'm thinking about the whole "make the plans and leave the results to God" saying.
In that frame of mind, I would say "Hey Mr. (fill in the blank), when you made that comment "bla bla bla" today, that really hurt my feelings."
Nothing more really needs to be said, and you don't really need to say anything FOR anyone else but yourself either in my opinion. If it bothers YOU - and you feel like you want him to know it, just keep it short, sweet, and to the point. If he doesn't care that he hurt your feelings... you don't have have to take that personally either. It's his deal to work out, and maybe he never will... and that's kind of sad actually.
THe hardest thing for me to do is just say "Hello - you just hurt me" and leave it at that. I don't HAVE TO SAY could you say this or that instead please.. or go off on a nervous tangent - but I do sometimes... and it's not my place to tell anyone how to act or what should come out of their mouth. I can however, state very simply when I've been hurt. I am responsible for my feelings today. If they've been hurt - it's up to me to turn that around. First step is not letting people hurt me unintentionally or intentionally by allowing them to know they're doing it.
They can either say sorry, say buzz off, say get a life... or do nothing at all... etc. That part doesn't really matter. What matters is, you identified your feelings, you took responsibility for them, you protected them, and you gave someone a natural consequence for their actions, without being hurtful back in any way... or talking yourself or them down.
The rest is up to HP. Maybe you'll see this person get even nastier to you - out of fear most likely - sad. Now you know, and you can make a choice. Maybe they'll get nicer... now you know and you can make a choice. Maybe they'll do nothing. Now you know - you can make a choice.
__________________
Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
Hmmm.. Some interesting points made. Thanks, Tasha, yes I was thinking of speaking on behalf of the women in general which is not my place, or battle. Pappy, I love you, man... But you saying that these comments made is simply men 'telling it like it is' is a bit strange. So, women ARE meant to be looked at and not heard, have no intelligence, etc... Because these are the comments I included in my post. Although I take it with a grain of salt it can be difficult at times being amongst this. I don't think an AA meeting is the proper time or place for someone to voice these opinions of women.
AA hasn't had a stellar record over the years in the treatment of women members. Going back to such subjects such as the Founder's Watch, discouragement of women as members, treatment of pioneer Florence R. and , later, Irma Livoni reminds us of how bad things got, A lot of it was due to ignorance and sentiments that persist even today, unfortunately.
In any other public contemporary organization, comments such as those mentioned in the OP by the "old timer" would not be allowed, his "up-bringing" notwithstanding.
-- Edited by Tanin on Thursday 25th of April 2013 12:16:05 AM
I can only share my ESH...My experience at one time was very aggressive and then assaultive...not anymore...it changed to doing and saying nothing at all and just walking away...kinda least said...soonest ended and then I got to be an elder and learned how to go one on one with kindness and empathy and compassion and straight forward inventory statements. "Your remarks sound offensive and by the numbers and how often you do it makes me think you're afraid of something. I'd be willing to listen for the why you think it's necessary to make them and am also willing to respond like this again in the future. So what are you afraid of? (now listen)"
I'm an old 70ish kind of guy who has changed his attitude in recovery to a sober attitude and personality. It ain't all about just not drinking...The guys I pay attention to the most are the ones that do it on purpose and in spite of others...yeppers "Self-will and Self-centeredness run riot. Often times you can notice them as they attempt to place the blame for what they do back on others rather than their own personal principles". It is what it is and I can't change the world however I can change me and how I respond to stuff.
Being old isn't a permission to be stoopid. Just for me. (((hugs)))
Hey there old man (Tom) ... I thought that was an 'ear horn' for your hearing ... yikes, the air horn got me!!! ... ... ... (sorry, I'm just another old fart with a lot of 'non-sense' to get out ...)(i'm just looking for a place to bury some of it ...)
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Hey there old man (Tom) ... I thought that was an 'ear horn' for your hearing ... yikes, the air horn got me!!! ... ... ... (sorry, I'm just another old fart with a lot of 'non-sense' to get out ...)(i'm just looking for a place to bury some of it ...)
It's just damn embarrasing that these old guys at Col's meeting are giving us a bad name!
Tom
__________________
"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
Hmmm.. Some interesting points made. Thanks, Tasha, yes I was thinking of speaking on behalf of the women in general which is not my place, or battle. Pappy, I love you, man... But you saying that these comments made is simply men 'telling it like it is' is a bit strange. So, women ARE meant to be looked at and not heard, have no intelligence, etc... Because these are the comments I included in my post. Although I take it with a grain of salt it can be difficult at times being amongst this. I don't think an AA meeting is the proper time or place for someone to voice these opinions of women.
It sounds like this guy is just trying to get some attention and stir the pot....Funny after thinking about this post I was reminded of a Older old timer who took a major offense to Pappy's humor intened thread a couple months ago.
Anyway, as you mentioned a great thing about our meetings is the mix of people, men, women, young, old etc ect. I think most men appreciate the women and the mix of people at the meetings.
Either bring it up and have another man at the meeting talk to him about the sexist comments or walk up to him and say basically what you said above "I really enjoy your sharing and comments and humor here at the meeting, even though I know you don't mean harm when you make light of women in AA, it can have a negetive impact to those in early recovery.
If the issue is more widespread talk to a homegroup member and see if they will bring it up at the group meeting or get some other women who feel as you do and bring up the issue.
__________________
Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
My wife had some issues like this some of the morning and afternoon meetings she goes to.
It seems like there is a larger contingency of retired/not working folks at these meetings who are not in the habit of needing to be politcally correct....still no excuse.
__________________
Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
Hey there old man (Tom) ... I thought that was an 'ear horn' for your hearing ... yikes, the air horn got me!!! ... ... ... (sorry, I'm just another old fart with a lot of 'non-sense' to get out ...)(i'm just looking for a place to bury some of it ...)
It's just damn embarrasing that these old guys at Col's meeting are giving us a bad name!
Tom
Hear, Hear, ... ... ... I agree Tom ... ... ... Yes, I have made comments in meetings before that I wish I had left unsaid ... and we think we should hold the olders guys more accountable at times ... but we are all still falable ... what's that saying??? ... ... ... 'We claim Progress, not perfection' ?...
I think that you and I are probably a lot more sensitive to others needs and feelings than those in Col's meetings ... working this program to stay alive is no joke, but I do like to laugh a bit along the journey ... and I hope I can get others to laugh with me, or at me, I don't care as long as we can lighten up at times ...
Col's point is a good one, but I don't think we should let stuff like this 'get to us' ... like they say, take everything with a grain of salt ...
Hey Pappy,
I was typing when you were typing. I know I probably piss people off at times, and so I take the point as well. Another thing that happens in meetings is that close relations are formed among some members, and then innappropriate things are said that everyone does not "get". Its a human thing, and it is a great topic of discussion. That is why I always bring an air horn to meetings. One blast of that thing, and everyone in the room knows where my "comfort zone" is. Sadly, in my case, I run out of air horn before the meeting ends. The good part is that I never have a crowd around me, and I can pretty much choose where I want to sit.
Tom
-- Edited by turninggrey on Thursday 25th of April 2013 09:17:07 AM
__________________
"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
Hey Col, ... I apologize for making it seem that the old guys 'saying it like it is' look like it was okay, I don't always think that what's on one's mind should be spoken out loud ... quite the contrary ... I think we should learn when to keep certain things to ourselves ... the point I was trying make is what Rob said ... I just couldn't find the right words I guess ... but this whole 'Politically Correct' scene is what rubs me the wrong way ... I think it's a bunch of B.S. plain and simple ...
A bunch of 'old farts' controlling the meetings have both good and bad components ... the great depth of wisdom would be the good part and the 'insensitivity' at times would be the bad ... don't forget, men have mood swings too, just like women ... so we're apt to stick our foot in our mouth at times too ... and I think using the tools we gather in AA is the appropriate thing to do here in order to look past others imperfections ... please don't get offended too easily ...
That's what I think I was trying to say ...
Love ya and God Bless, Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Hey there old man (Tom) ... I thought that was an 'ear horn' for your hearing ... yikes, the air horn got me!!! ... ... ... (sorry, I'm just another old fart with a lot of 'non-sense' to get out ...)(i'm just looking for a place to bury some of it ...)
It's just damn embarrasing that these old guys at Col's meeting are giving us a bad name!
Tom
Hear, Hear, ... ... ... I agree Tom ... ... ... Yes, I have made comments in meetings before that I wish I had left unsaid ... and we think we should hold the olders guys more accountable at times ... but we are all still falable ... what's that saying??? ... ... ... 'We claim Progress, not perfection' ?...
I think that you and I are probably a lot more sensitive to others needs and feelings than those in Col's meetings ... working this program to stay alive is no joke, but I do like to laugh a bit along the journey ... and I hope I can get others to laugh with me, or at me, I don't care as long as we can lighten up at times ...
Col's point is a good one, but I don't think we should let stuff like this 'get to us' ... like they say, take everything with a grain of salt ...
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Hey Col, Bottom line is that you have a more of a grasp on the program at this point that most of us had at a year in. You are not a "newbie". Your honesty is refined and fine tuned. You see a wrong that all of us, have agreed with, and I think you are going to need to bring it up. I think the most important part of Pappy's post was:
"If I were to address this issue, as you asked, I would go to the person or persons outside of the group meeting, and simply say that you are 'bothered' by what they shared and why ... ... ... unless they've gone senile and can't comprehend what you're talking about, they will probably thank you for speaking up and speaking your mind ... without bringing the whole group in to judge ...
It's something to think about, for sure ... Good Luck, whatever you do or don't do ..."
I will tell you that my dealings with the good natured old farts is that they will probably conform for a bit, and then slip back into it, because they are closer to the "finish line" than you. It is one of the problems of any human organization. They have humans in them. In our case, we have alcoholic humans in our organization. I would trust your values, do what you feel is right, but I would not make it a "search for the grail".
I know this will turn out fine.
Tom
__________________
"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
While this may touch only part of this topic, the wonmderful thing about this fellowship isthat whether wehave four days or forty years, we ALL share equal membership.
__________________
"And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone-even alcohol. For by this time sanity will have returned."
Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 84
An addict is WHAT I am but it does not define all of WHO I am.
This is for Col ... 'How Men Think' ... ... ... when I saw this, I thought of you Col and this thread ... LOL
Subject:HOW MEN THINK! As she sat by him, he whispered, eyes full of tears, ......
HOW MEN THINK!
As she sat by him, he whispered, eyes full of tears, 'You know what?
You have been with me all through the bad times. When I got fired, you were there to support me. When my business failed, you were there. When I got shot, you were by my side. When we lost the house, you stayed right here. When my health started failing, you were still by my side... You know what Martha?' 'What dear?' she gently asked, smiling as her heart began to fill with warmth. 'I'm beginning to think you're bad luck....
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Uh... yeah. I'm calling bulls**t on this one (meaning b.s. on this is how old timers just act). I go to plenty of meetings where there's old timer guys who got sober when my mother was in grade school, and I've never heard even one of them say ANYTHING remotely sexist when it came to women getting sober. Mostly what I hear from them is a whole lot of "life on life's terms"; "plug in the jug"; "buy yourself some sober time" and "sit down and be quiet." Some of them don't really have an 'off' switch but that's not fatal.
If they're that offensive, and it's a meeting you like & would continue to like to go to, (I'm guessing these guys all sit together) and you hear them say it again, I would turn to them and say pretty simply "If you're not going to talk about AA, please take your conversations outside." You can also try speaking up and saying "We don't cross talk in this group, in fact we find it very offensive." Because you KNOW an old timer would have no problem telling a newbie to shut the hell up if their conversation veered from the purpose of the meeting.
-- Edited by s_lukin on Monday 29th of April 2013 10:06:16 AM
You are correct, s lukin, in that generally old timers do not make sexist comments during meetings. I was referring to one meeting in particular, that I do enjoy going to due in large part to the wisdom and experience of many that also attend. You can 'call b.s.' on this post and the issue brought up, but it is one that I've heard many women echo. Again, I was referring to one meeting in particular, and I thought I was clear about that. I apologize if I was not, as I was not attempting to stereotype or lump all old timers who are male into this fairly small group. The point I was trying to make, and was seeking advice about, is the potentially very detrimental impression this type of talk within this meeting can have on newcomer women. The comments cited above may be said in jest, but a woman who's very new to the program may not get that. I certainly wasn't making any broad statements about AA in general, I was simply seeking advice about a situation that I've seen drive women out of this meeting to not return. I know this, because 2 women who I'm friendly with in the program have told me that is the reason they no longer attend this meeting. That is their choice, of course, but there are limited numbers of noon time meetings in the area.
Some of us 'old timers' have learned to just NOT take life so seriously ... we'd rather make fun of each other than to die with a 'sour puss' on our faces ... LOL ...
My goodness folks, can't we all just learn to enjoy each other as we are and not try to mold each other into who we want them to be? ... ... ... I think this is one of the points Col is trying to make ... and I agree, a 'new-comer' walking in and getting exposed to some of our stuff, may not have the capacity to understand what's going on ... so we should be careful of what others hear and be quick to explain our motives in our comments ... (you know, when a 'new-comer' twists their head like a dog trying to figure out what it just saw or heard ...) ... :)
uh-oh ... now I'm trying to figure out what I just said ... hummm, this happen to anyone else???
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Oh.. no- sorry- I didn't mean it was BS that this doesn't happen, I meant it's BS for any old timer to say "that's just how we all are." I'm sure it does happen all the time, all over the place. There's definitely a reason that it's much much more difficult in large part for women to get sober than men. I didn't mean to come across as saying that old curmudgeons don't think AA is the last bastion of socially acceptable sexism.
As for the post after that one, if not wanting to hear sexist remarks means I (or anyone else) is taking ourselves too seriously, then so be it. There's a whole lot of things I could say about the old timers with the gin blossoms and the dirty fingernails at my meetings but I don't. Know why? Because it's not appropriate and it has nothing to do with AA. Same with sexist remarks.
I took it the way you meant in s.lukin - not against col's post - but calling bs on the old guys.
The thing of it is, if someone really wants sobriety, they're going to get it. We aren't responsible for it, and there is nothing we can do to make it happen or not happen. In all reality, if we come in at a sufficient bottom, we will do anything, put up with anything, and go to any lengths to extract what we need to find the serenity that is promised in this program.
We are ALL exactly where we are suppose to be right? Not just the ones behaving the way we want them to... all of us. We all need help, and there is a reason that all of us are where we are doing the things we are doing. When I truly grasp that completely, I can find peace, and I do get to cease fighting anything and anyone - like it proclaims will happen in the big book.
I am not saying I am perfect and do that perfectly... but at least I can look at that guy who 13th stepped me early on (with 33 yrs of sobriety) with a hand shake, a welcome, and a smile today. I'm glad he's here too. He's an alcoholic. He chuckles at newcomer woman, and he rolls his eyes. He says belittling things, and in my opinion, doesn't have a clue how this program works. But he keeps coming back - and he has been for 33 yrs. And he taught me early on, that no matter what happens, no matter what it takes... I will keep coming back too.
__________________
Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
