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Post Info TOPIC: "God, As We Understood Him"
Tanin


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"God, As We Understood Him"
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Here's a nice piece of history from another forum (AA History Lovers) I am on. Fitz M. and Jimmy B were VERY important influences at the birth of AA. They disagreed greatly but AA was (and is) better off for it. A heavily Christian/religious Big Book, or one devoid of any "God" references would have been unlikely to work for as many millions as it has come to work for:

 

The "minister's son" on p. 56 in the Big Book was very definitely an AA member.
He was Fitz Mayo, see the story "Our Southern Friend" in the Big Book.

In terms of people who stayed around for a while, and were active in shaping
early New York AA at the very beginning, the three most important early New York
members in the early months were Bill Wilson, Hank Parkhurst, and Fitz Mayo, who
got sober in that order.

When the Big Book was being written, Fitz Mayo wanted it to use a good deal of
traditional Christian doctrinal language and biblical citations. Jim Burwell on
the other hand was an atheist and wanted no mention of God at all. God "as we
understood Him" was the compromise wording, which allowed AA members to go
either way, with Fitz or with Jim. See:

http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm#John%20Henry%20F\
itzhugh%20%28Fitz%29%20Mayo




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Pythonpappy


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Good info, ... ... ... thanks Mr. Pickle



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Mr_David


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Great bit of history. Thanks, Tanin.



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mikef


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 More History  Thanks Tanin............BILL W............For some perspective on how we handled that dilemma, (God) one more look at AA history is helpful.  Another thing Bill W. frequently wrote and spoke about was what he called the "tenstrike" of AA the wording of the Third and Eleventh Steps.  The whole area of spirituality versus religion was  as perplexing for them as unity was for us  Bill liked to recount that the simple addition of the words "as we understood Him" after the word "God" killed that controversy in one chop   An issue that had the potential to divide and destroy AA was converted into the cornerstone of the program by that simple turn of phrase.......Discussions  still take place though (even with my own sponsees) on why the 'male' identification? if 2nd Step says "Power greater than ourselves(your concept of  and then Step 3 we are now  at a 'male God' with 4 references in the Steps to the male gender.Good friend overseas in India's Concept of God,,,, Popular Goddesses worshiped in Hinduism are Lakshmi, Saraswati, Parvati, Durga, and Kali.   Question debated "is why do not not refer to God as we understand God(NOT HIM)  A matter of Semantics..?..........  WE do know that we don't need any understanding at all of 'GOD' as long as our own  concept  is loving ,caring,greater at least than our  own addiction and ourselves and a Power that can keep us in remission, recovered a day at a time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 This is just a little addition of how this "tenstrike" moved forward ....... for the offshoot program of NA,,a similar "tenstrike" was developed in literature replacing the "oneness of Alcohol with  that 1st STEP reading as  "powerless over addiction, (all inclusive with alcohol  listed as a drug of which it, caffeine and nicotine are included)/  NA has no opinion on the latter 2)In the book Alcoholics Anonymous, in the chapter "The Family Afterward," members and their families are encouraged not to be concerned about the alcoholic's use of caffeine or tobacco, but instead focus on the "more serious ailment" of alcoholism.In 1935, nicotine addiction may not have been considered a "serious ailment," and continuing to use tobacco was considered less of a risk than continuing to drink, for the alcoholic. But today we know nicotine addiction can be, and often is, fatal.  Big Book says'''First things First,live and let live   and Easy does it>>> History is really interesting and puts a lot of different outlooks on what we may or may not be aware of..........As long as WE don't pick and continue to do the "work" .. we find that Power that works for us individually  WE will continue to make progress...........A line I always read in the Big Book  pg 164(to remain always God centered and focused) Our book is meant to be suggestive only,we realize we know little!!! For me,  God is the answer....I seek God now....smilesmile  For Newcomers these are statements that are not meant for confusion  or controversy but only as facts of history,,discussions I have partaken in thru the years and writings from our literature. WE don't want to get over analytical especially when we are still twitchin early on  in our recoveries  but being informed is not necessarily  a bad thing and WE are responsible for health in all areas of our lives physical,mental and spiritual.I truly believe those who get most out of  our program highly value sponsorship,attend meetings and share there  own ESH and give back thru service work to others(be of maximum service to God and others ,our primary purpose)....The program is on pg 59...the Steps we took as a program of recovery,guided by our Higher Power (and  Sponsorship suggested thru fellowship) There are things we will never know,but as long as we remain in the HOW )honesty,openminded and willing)More is always revealed.in our journey of LIFE in remission from an incurable illness of body ,mind and spirit!!!I am  always reading the History of a fellowship,our fellowship, I have spent 3 decades of my life involved with. I am aware of all opinions but based on my own evidence thru the God of my understandings grace and mercy I continue the application of our Solution ,the Steps,guided by the one for me that does know "more than little"to remaining  free from that 'first one" that would be my demise....Didnt mean this to be a diatribe,but I reply a lot and never really write...Looks like Im in the land of  BABBLEON this mornin............Have a blessed and productive day...



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Pythonpappy


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I've been to Babbleon many times ... it's not that bad until you get stuck there ... LOL ... great post Mike ... thanks



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leeu


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Atheists do not "understand" God, because they do not recognize "his" existence.

So actually that phrase does not really address the dilemma. AND YET.........that little phase has done so much to open the doors for all, no matter the nature of their thoughts/beliefs/understandings of God. The male anthropomorphic Christian God as interpreted during the early evolution of AA was and is the cornerstone of AA's core premises and I doubt anyone could argue their way around that-the literature proves it undeniably.

But by including, with the great wisdom, that "compromise" to help keep Jim B, and others of his beliefs, sober, no person ever since has had a solid excuse, regarding God, to stop themselves from embracing the A.A. program of recovery. Even the atheist can make God-the-word (yes, there is a sneaky pun in there, Mike) work, and a conception of what the word means to them.

That's how we got Good Orderly Direction (as an atheist's understanding of G.O.D.) and Group of Drunks as a Higher Power :)  Gottta love it!! 



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StPeteDean


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leeu wrote:

Atheists do not "understand" God, because they do not recognize "his" existence.

So actually that phrase does not really address the dilemma.

_______________________________________________

Leeu, I guess it's like politics,  anyone slightly to the left ("God as we understood him") of "Christian" is an atheist.  



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mikef


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I do believe that 'God as we understood him"(topic of this post by Tanin) was the saving grace of the program as was the first Step1 'TENSTRIKE' word changing to addiction in the NA program to make it all inclusive instead of the oneness of focus of AA. The good orderly direction,spiritual principles,group of drunks has allowed those who would not have found recovery be able to partake in thier own process of recovery and that truly was a blessing cause it wasn't workin before that..........I always found statements in BB such as"If you think your an atheist or agnostic or skeptic or have any pride which keeps you from accepting what is written in this book 'I FEEL SORRY FOR YOU'  Your Heavenly father will never let you down....?.

And "Actually WE are fooling ourselves for deep down every man,woman and child is the fundamental idea of god..It may be obscured by calamity by pomp or worship of other things but in some form(Good orderly direction,group of drunks,spiritual principles?)it is there We finally saw that Faith in some kind of god was part of our make-up.In the last analysis HE may be there.......       to be rather leaning toward one side the Oxford Group.Buchman and the priest..ED DOWLING...(a referral back to the origination of, Im not feeling the idealogy of "your own concept.(DEFINITELY MY STUFF AND NOT IN DISRESPECT). I am also aware this was 1937.(before the book)........In my journeys through the rooms,my contacts and situations I have met  people from the " Judeo (Christian' backround and idea of Higher Power(and there are many different forms of Christianity(According to the World Christian Encyclopedia (year 2000 version), global Christianity had 33,820 denominations with 3,445,000 congregations/churches) as well as at least as many or more  with their own faith beliefs even if that was no faith belief per se(non deity that is)... and also many who continually formed and developed their own Higher Powers to make the program work for them ,after all that is what the coming to believe in a  Higher Power is all about restoring us to sanity.........,,,something/anything with stated guidelines(loving ,caring,not us,greater than at least our addiction),, that will work for each individual to keep them from returning to active addiction..  Definitely not getting into a God thing up in here, its like Politics it just tends to make people take sides and get crazy.(Lived it during last election,im hard core Liberal hopefully with an eye on balance.........WE are responsible for our own recoveries and with "God" and support and daily work we find ways that help keep us away from that "next one" And that miracle of wording helped millions move forward in recovery in the program..........  When WE draw near to Him He disclosed Himself to us.. Take it verbatim or whatever it means and helps you........AGO(aka) Had a great full page dissertation(you know Andrew) on how an Atheist works 2nd /3rd Step with his own sponsees can't remember when.......  He defintely portrayed 'God' as He understood God. in his work with his sponsees// very cool....... Anyway....Last call for me on this one,,,really jabbery today.......Must be this 10 day Flu I got makin me unusually sparky.... ...smilesmile.........



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