Ah Tomsteve - I lOVE your idea so much about asking those EXACT questions - because I have ASKED HER THOSE EXACT questions hoping that it would be SOOOOOOOOOoo clear to her that I'm trying to stay in a place of spirituality... no avail : ( I also don't want to constantly feel like I'm sponsoring my sponsor.... boo... wahhhh wa wa
So - as was pointed out to me, I AM looking for a bit of sympathy here... I suppose I am looking for someone to go ahead and give me permission to move on from her... when that's a selfish thing to do indeed! If you tell me to dump her and move on... then I get to come back at you when I can't find another sponsor???? Or worse???? Who knows but I see I'm directing this outward when I truly need to rely on my faith and direct this inward and to my HP... I'm so sorry to have put you all in this position. Very selfish of me. Another wonderful lesson learned, and I thank you all so much!
-- Edited by justadrunk on Thursday 7th of February 2013 05:06:53 PM
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
I'm trying to figure it all out again... all by myself again...
If you had a sponsor that was gossipy about people in the program, and you've already hinted that you don't want to gossip so much anymore... but it just keeps comin, and you find yourself easily sucked back in...
do you: Keep trying to just be above it and subject yourself to that practice at, looking at it like a growing opportunity
do you: Find a different sponsor because you just can't seem to stop
do you: pray about it and keep the same sponsor and just keep trying harder to stay silent
????? other options ????
I feel like I'm setting myself up for failure if I leave or stay. I can't expect my sponsor to have every single outstanding quality that I want right? No one 'has it all' and is nothing but a beaming ray of light at all times right?
Actually, there are a few that I've met here, but they are old timer men. I talk to them once and while, and ask them things after the meetings sometimes... is that good enough? Should I just not be going to my sponsor for everything? Should I just reach out more to others? That feels manipulative, like... oh... if I want a really good conversation I have to talk to someone else....
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
"Keep trying to just be above it and subject yourself to that practice at, looking at it like a growing opportunity"
That's how I deal with it. It's not a game I played in my previous incarnation (as a drunk!) so maybe it's easier for me, but I'm doubly on guard about playing it in AA. I don't want to be the one that kills a fellow member by driving them away because I indulged in petty gossip.
Also I've had my share of gossip put around about me over the years. Some true, some embellished, and some that could only be called vindictive and destructive lies. Meh. So be it and I bare no ill will to those that spread it, but I certainly remember and hold a special place in my heart for those that ignored the stories and simply judged me based on the way I treated them. Can I do any less?
Tasha, is this person helping you? That is what I would focus on. There is no perfect person in the program. All of our proverbial crap smells.
My sponsor is old, wise, has many years of sobreity....but as I have gotten to know him more and more, I also realize he's afraid to have relationships to a degree and he hangs out with people beneath him (of course not me included LOL) because he is scared of getting judged by others...Whatever. I try not to take his inventory. When I do out of habit, I step back. Is he still a wonderful person? Yes, are his issues things that really hurt anyone so bad? No. Do I feel a bit disenchanted that I don't want to grow up and be just like him in every way. Sort of. That's the ideal in a sponsor, but the reality is you just want to be a functioning person who is spiritually fit without drinking.
There's also a difference between talking about people as in making observations and talking smack about people to make yourself feel better. All of us do some degree of both, but the second is the one that is truly gossip. People do talk about people. That's human. We learn from each other in the program and sometimes that includes talking about how you don't want to be like "so and so."
If she keeps bringing up other people for no purpose and/or it's nasty in nature, I would say flat out "I don't give a crap about XXXX" That will probably stop her and that's the truth for you. This way you are not stifling yourself and building up a little resentment of your own. You will be teaching her how to treat you and that includes "don't come to me with BS about others." Subtlety is not our strong suit as alcoholics. We don't pick up hints.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
There's also a difference between talking about people as in making observations and talking smack about people to make yourself feel better. All of us do some degree of both, but the second is the one that is truly gossip. People do talk about people. That's human. We learn from each other in the program and sometimes that includes talking about how you don't want to be like "so and so." .
GREAT observation PC ... I agree 100% ... ... ... There have been times when someone will talk of someone else and their actions, but it was presented as a 'learning' experience ... as a 'what not to do' kind of thing ... then there are those too, who speak of others more for the self-gratification they can get from putting others down kind of thing ... ... ...
What I have learned to do is when someone openly starts talking 'smack', as PC put it, about someone else, I say 'out loud', that I used to get pleasure from taking other peoples inventories too ... now I just try to concentrate on my own ...
Great Post!!!
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
That's tough, Tasha. You say you've hinted to her that you don't want to go down that road, but what about saying outright that that's not the kind of thing you want to engage in, because although you find yourself easily sucked in you're trying not to engage in gossip?
The most important things my sponsor did for me as a newbie was to get me into a strong home group, as well as going to other meetings and getting to know lots and lots of people in the program. He may have been set in his ways but he had the wisdom to know variety is the spice of life and being of different generations (he was the same age as my mother) that we weren't always going to be on the same page. He in effect taught me how to always have a "sponsor" nearby, even if it's not him. He wasn't into sponsor hierarchy or anything like that.
As you might expect I adopted a similar style for the few people I've sponsored over the years. Once I got over the experience of having 10 people ask me to sponsor them and then disappearing... LOL. You learn REAL fast not to take that personally. I'm just not into any sort of guru-worship, giving or receiving. I believe God puts the right people in my life at the right time, and whether the person who gives me something today is my official sponsor or not isn't important. What's important is that I am open to the connections and to receive the message I need to hear - even from someone outside the program.
Some of the worst times in my life have come when the basket with all my eggs in it got dropped. Or kicked. Thanks to my sponsor and others like him, I got out of that habit real fast in early sobriety. It can feel strange when the basket is empty - as it often is - but seems like something always shows up when I really need it.
Someone once said if you can stay sober in AA you can stay sober anywhere.
Learn to live on lifes terms...don't react act..and stop taking your emotional temperture all the time..toughen up and ask yourself what step am I on...No doubt they gossip about you too..and what they say about you is none of your business...Just be yourself answerable to God.. Don't look for sympathy...look for answers inside yourself. Accept people the way they are...with a God Bless em..Learn to be strong in your emotional affairs
I notice you always ask for help from others..learn to give help not ask...that's what the 11th step is all about..study that step is my suggestion thoroughly
Someone once said if you can stay sober in AA you can stay sober anywhere.
LOL.
Reminds me of something I didn't heed, but fortunately didn't have to get drunk over: the easiest way to turn AA into a slippery place is to get in a relationship with a fellow AA...
I tried on a few occasions. I have had plenty of female friends in AA, but the few times I went after more, it was a disaster. Not a great big disaster, because it didn't get very far. I didn't go to the moon and back only to burn up in re-entry or anything like that.... more like my first unmanned test rockets blew up on the pad. No harm done other than bruised ego and embarrassment. My one and only actual "AA girlfriend" was a 100% psycho, and that "relationship" sputtered out leaving me alone in mission control with my finger on the button wondering where's the kaboom. It was a huge blessing for me, not even in disguise. In hindsight, I felt tremendous relief... it cleared my slate and let me enjoy life for a few years until the right person finally came along - not in AA, not surprisingly. And I stayed sober.
The only thing I can say that hasn't been said is that I would think twice about sharing my 4th step with this person. I had a sponsor like that once and I shared my 5th with her ended up firing her because of who she shared it with afterwards and it effected my trust with her. We have stayed friends, but she is still a gossip.
hhmmm. very good question and glad to see that you see what also hapens to me: i start acting like the poeple i hang with. the best thing for me to do is some 10th step work. what would be my motives for being around people like that? one thing i sometimes do and like ti when my sponsor and others do it to me is start askign questions. so, in an instanse where i feel i am starting to hear gossip, i may something like," hmmm, now heres something i am asking myself and maybe you can help me. i am wondering if what we are talking about is helping someone or hurting ourselves. are we talking about someone with loive and tolerance or are we doing it to make ourselves feel better about ourselves. i am wondering because i dotn want to be using someone elses shortcoming/defects to make myself feel better about myself." or something to that effect. heres why i do it: theres a man that started comin to my HG meetings a 3-4 years ago. at the time i had a pretty big soap box i carried with me. so there was this man comin to meetings and he always had something very good to say and program oriented and after the meeting, he'd come up to me and say,"tom, i was listening to what you said, but i am a little confused. im trying to figure out where in the big bok it suggests we do that. can ya help me find it?" what was my replay? "pick up the book and read it." took a while but found out ot was me that needed to read and study the book more! heres somethig else i look at. the lords prayer is said at the end of many meetings."lead me not into temptation, but deliver me from evil." i found it isnt very wise to ask the lord to lead me from temptation then walk into it.
"Should I just reach out more to others?" i gotta check my motives on this one. am i lookin for what i want to hear or what i need to hear? i have some very good friends in AA, frends that have diferent life experiences. when i have an issue with my thinking about the cancer i have, i call someoen who has been through serious health issues. when i am having problems spiritually, i will call my friend that has the same HP as me. my sponsor has also suggested i do this as he surely cant relate to my thinking about health issues as he hasnt gone through them, or some others things,too. so, how did i start finding who to call? i got some courage, started callign and opening up, and learned. some of that learning involved some pretty hard knocks( as does learnging anything in life) but it is better for me to step out in courage than live in fear.
Bless you Tomas - asking for help was a huge hurdle for me, and I don't plan to stop doing it just yet... I have a lot to learn!!! I think helping others is a great way to learn, but I don't feel any shame in asking a question at all. I teach my students to ask me questions, by asking them myself... how do you like this piece of music? What was your favorite part? Did you practice? How was your day? How does this song make you feel? What did you do when you got stuck on that part?
When those little kids see me ask questions... they seem to feel more comfortable doing it too... and that is the kind of relationship I look for everywhere, not just while teaching... or mothering... or in AA... but everywhere. No matter what the question, HOW people respond is the most interesting part. We learn all sorts of unexpected things, and we learn a lot about a person by HOW they respond... not just what information they give.
I get to learn a little bit about you, and how you try and help someone... and if it feels good to me, I get to try and learn from you, and help others in that way. It begins with a question... and sometimes... I get to learn how not to answer and attempt to help others too... it's a wonderful gift in sobriety, all this clear thinking : )
Everyone: thank yoU!!
I did end up praying for answers, and you were here to help! The answer that came to me also, was to just ASK HER! LOL How simple this program truly is with a HP to lean on : )
I asked her what she thought about AA's gossiping about other AA's, and she said a lot of what you've all said, along with "ah, but we all do it so... oh well."
Well... I don't want to do it. As mentioned above - I was surely gossiped about when I came in (by her). She tells me all about her sponsee's who are out relapsing, flirting, dressing too sexy, talking to much to so and so who's a jerk and has a big head etc etc etc etc.... and you know, it feels like crap to listen to all of it. Plus, I did it all!!!!!!!!!! DID IT DID IT DID IT DID IT!! That's all that goes through my head. To know she was probably running around blabbing about me being an ordinary sick drunk in desperate need of a program and steps... makes me kind of... well... glad that's not me (as much) TODAY. But... overall... I'm tired of it, and I have tried to just say "I don't need to know" but it never ends.
Oh well. The main thing is, I'm not going to drink over it, and I guess I can handle being a sounding board, because it will at least stop with me and not go any farther. It's obviously something my HP feels I need to get some experience handling... and I feel really grateful for the gifts I continue to be presented with : )
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
hey tasha, my dad used to tell me when i was a rug rat that the only stupid question was the one you didnt ask. Its hard for us to make our minds up about things sometimes and getting other peoples views help us to see clearer. One reason is that im not affected like you are about your adversities so i can give you a different perspective that you might have or cant see due to your emotional investment. Dont know if they have sobriety chips there in cheese land but we do here in the biig litter box, and on the back of most of them shakespere is quoted with " to thine own self be true " so rock on sister, one day i my need to ask you for help. And i will.
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Since it cost a lot to win, and even more to loose, you and me gotta spend some time just wondering what to choose.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being honest and direct. "I don't want to gossip about other people. Let's talk about ourselves, the two people here right now, or let's not talk. I tried to let you know I was very uncomfortable with your talking about others and I have to be able to trust that the person sponsoring me isn't about gossip at all. It needs to end when you are with me or I need to find another sponsor."
Possible Results;
1. You'll be told to go find another sponsor
2. You will impress your sponsor so much she will respect your wishes and stop gossiping around you, or to you about others
3. You might be giving your sponsor a wake up call... Talking about others is not only rude, but not everyone wants to participate in it.
My sponsor is someone I can trust with anything, I don't fear being completely honest with him because I know it will never make it to the AA round de round and come back to bite me on the ass... if he was a gossip... I wouldn't have him. My experience has been, someone that will talk to you about others for the sake filling blank air space, will talk to others about you too,
Take what you want and leave the rest
John
-- Edited by John on Friday 8th of February 2013 06:07:31 PM
Great Subject and responses MIP family...I liked it all and I've been around a long time. The closing of all of my Al-Anon meetings tells me "let there be no gossip or citicism of one another". My AA groups start out with "Rarely have we seen a person f a i l who has not failed to follow these steps" and more. In the groups I've been in there are bunches of courage woven thru out the fellowship...break the code and you get called on it first chance. We and our experiences in sobriety are valuable to each other and ourselves. Early on in recovery I had sponsorship who "warned" me about screwing around with "the" program or "other peoples" program and they were serious. If and when I was ever guilty of screwing around I found myself alone now isn't that just like being with the wrong person to rest my sobriety on? I think so and so I don't because....I just don't. great post ((((hugs))))
(((justadrunk)))....Bless you! Thank you for sharing! Our BB does NOT talk about "sponsors" , except in the stories. It does talk about "spiritual advisors" and "close (I repeat) CLOSE mouthed friends...I just GOTTA say that one more time...CLOSE MOUTHED friends!!!!!! (Not an impossible commodity inside A.A.)..... I dont like to tell anyone anything.....but, " RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!!!!!!" LOL! Gossip is only a way to steal power....It is the bitter poison, of our fellowship!!! After my first 5 years of playing people and gossiping about them, someone FORCED me to go back and make amends to someone I had been talking about....for gossiping about them!!!! ( EGADS! These guys are SERIOUS!!!! LOL ) That cured me!!!!! Gossip chases new people out! I believe it has power to kill our fragile newcomers! It is evidence of disease, TANGIBLE EVIDENCE OF FEAR/DISEASE! And in listening to it, I become tainted, my feelings about the victim, are altered, in meetings! When I indulged in it, as a hobby, the patient longtimers, KNEW, it was only my own disease, trying to chase me out the door!!! My guilt became anger became guilt, and I began squirming!!! I have had to shut people down, " Please dont talk about them to me.....IT IS HARM!".......It means, I miss stuff, in the cliques.......HOWEVER.....When I pray for protection (each time I enter the clubs doors LOL), and what can I do for the person who is still sick.....my focus turns to "OUR Primary Purpose...to stay sober, and help other alcoholics achieve sobriety." ................ To analyze gossip, as a disease.....When we are in fear, of someone...trying to establish our spot in the A.A. foodchain.... the sick gossip will do anything, for "power"....BUT...That aint Power!!! If someone is speaking about someone else to me....I can bet my last nickle, they are talking about me to someone else!!! I can vent...by NOT NAMING NAMES...to people who cannot figure out who I am talking about!!!! Honey.....R U N!!!! Ask your Angel for a new teacher!!!! Most longtimers I know, become cured of gossip.....thats one of the reasons they get to BE longtimers!!!!! That 12th Step prayer, "What can I do for the person who is still sick?" applies to the sick gossip as well.... I just love your posts! Thanks so much Miss Justa ;) Love, Lady Eli
I would just say to her, every time she did it...why are you sharing this with me? Maybe she will get the idea it isn't needed if she has to confront her reasons for it time and time again.
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I think there's an invisible principle of living...if we believe we're guided through every step of our lives, we are. Its a lovely sight, watching it work.
It's me. All me. If I have a problem with someone else, it always reflects me! I think if I'm really thinking about it right, and I've begged God now to let me just see the truth for one cotton pickin minute about my own self - I think I see it's me. I think I bring it on so she will like me because we have nothing else to talk about, and I know I only have to say 2 words and she'll give me a good show. I'm bored. I think I provoke it all. Dang.
Lead me not into temptation... ah yes... it's not my fault! I was tempted! OR have I been the temptress? I think so. I will continue to pray about this for 2 weeks, and keep my temptress shut up - and see what God has to teach me this time!
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
