I was at a meeting recently, one that I go to almost every day. It's a great meeting that I feel welcome at and a few people I used to drink with go, too- which I think is great. This particular meeting is full of oldtimers, so I often just listen as there is much to learn from these guys. Anyway, one gentleman in particular spoke recently of newcomers. Well, he doesn't like us. He went on to berate newcomers as having " nursery school problems", complaining of people beginning to sponser others too early, etc. He was fairly condescending and hostile. Now, I kind of understand why he may feel this way, but I thought it highly inappropriate of him. I can handle it- I just laughed it off, really- but there were a couple of newer faces that looked very uncomfortable. I dunno, the whole thing just changed the tone of the meeting, and I've noticed that not many newcomers have been sharing at the meeting since. Like I said, I can understand where he's coming from.. I'm sure I've said many things that probably sound idiotic to someone with more sobriety, but is it really appropriate to lash out at newcomers in this manner?
-- Edited by Col on Tuesday 8th of January 2013 08:47:20 AM
I have been wondering how members feel about the people who are only there to have a card signed for the courts. I don't think it is fair to force people serious about their sobriety to take on the responsibilities of the justice system.
somewhat related...sorry if it was inappropriate to ask here
Could be having a bad day, or year, or decade even. I've had some of each. It's just one of the ways we create pain for ourselves, and when the pain gets bad enough, then we eventually do something about it - hopefully his day is coming soon - I will pray for that for both your sakes. His HP still believes in him, and you. (Thanks Dean)
Sometimes I want things to go a certain way in the meetings or where ever, and then I realize that everyone isn't here on earth as a part of a perfect display for me.
The newcomers who *might* be sharing less are making that choice for themselves. He's ultimately not responsible for how others react to him.
It could just be your perception anyway. Sometimes resentments alter our whole perception of things.
Now if only I could get that through my head pertaining to my in laws!!! LOL Can you do me a favor and tell me everything I just told you like 400 times! hehe
__________________
Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
The rooms are full of sick people - some sicker than others.
When I was first getting sober the rehab took us to AA each day. At one meeting an old timer (probs 30 odd years sober) got up to share whereby he pretty much gave us all a dressing down (the rehab group) and told us that we didn't look like we were serious, and that he was sick of seeing us come and go and then come back again, and a whole lot of rubbish like that. Didn't share anything about his recovery and took (what he imagined to be) our inventories. I reckon he might be related to your man there.
Anyway afterwards we were having a smoke and we were talking about this angry guy and wondering why he had yelled at us, when another old timer told us not to worry because that fella was notorious for is. Dry drunk, he said. He'd been sober for 30 odd years but had never grown internally. A good example of what happens when you work everyone else's program and neglect your own.
It really stuck with me because I don't want to be that man. I was that man for 15 years while I was drinking and don't want to see him again.
So, no, it's not really appropriate, but you can get a good lesson out of it if you come at it from the right angle.
Yes, Frodo. I've been trying to think of incidents like this from that standpoint. This gentleman also told me, at 2 weeks sober told me that I should go to womens meetings... Because we can talk about how promiscuous we were!?! Lmao.. This dude didn't know my name, let alone my sexual history- which, Incidently is not all as exciting as he was probably imagining haha. And yes, Tasha, I do try to always see my part in regards to perception. I guess maybe I took it a bit personal since I had mentioned losing my job to a friend at the meeting, and he had been part of the conversation. My immediate thought was " losing a job is not a nursery school problem". Regardless, whomever his words were directed at or about, I thought it inappropriate. But then again, I'm not running the show!
What a fine 'pickle' this can put the 'old timer' in ... ... ... I know I have to be careful here, ... not if, but when I see those who have been coming to meetings for 1, 2 or 3 months disappear and come back for a few weeks and disappear and then come and cry on our shoulders they just don't get it ... THEN, like the guy that was described above, I will, more than likely, call this 'new-comer' out on their own lack of commitment ... it may indeed seem harsh to other 'new-comers' that may or may not know the person or persons in question ... if I come across as a crusty old bastard, then so be it ... but sometimes a whiny new-comer has to be set straight and not allow to extend his/her pity-pot performance to the group to get sympathy for something that starts with their lack of 'willingness' to work the program ...
Sometimes it is better to set people straight with the cold hard facts(truth) to try and 'wake' them up ... I would hope that 'other' new-comers would question this sort of thing to their sponsors or other members so as to get an overall feel for the seriousness of our situation ... I think it necessary to step on some 'toes' at times to allow us to change their diapers ... cause some of the new-comers are so full of it, and you know what I mean, they need to be cleaned up a bit ...
How do I know this stuff, cause I had to have my diaper(BS) changed a lot when I first came around ... Thank God and you folks I out-grew that phase ...
Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Col, your second post is a bit more telling as regards this guy. Roger brings some balance with the thought that sometimes some straight talking is called for. Perhaps the issues raised give some clues.
Sponsoring too early? The book encourages to get through the steps quickly and get out there helping others. Typically, 4 weeks was the time for taking the steps and then off you fo sponsoring. If this hadn't been done AA could never have grown as it did. So was he saying people shouldn't be sponsoring before they have taken the steps - fair enough - or did he have in mind some arbritary time limit like you can't sponsor anyone or do this or that until you have been sober for X months or years. The former is consistent with the program in the book, the latter isn't.
That seems just plain wierd advice re the womens meeting but back home I have heard some members of the womens group talk about the greater depth they can go to in their sharing as being one reason they go. We have a mens group too with members who believe the same thing. But I have great trouble reconciling this with the big book. It says our stories disclose in a GENERAL WAY etc... to me this means we should not be going into great depth in what is effectively a public forum. It's dangerous, we don't know who's listening or what they may do with the information, we may seriously regret what we say, I saw one man take his life after saying too much in a meeting. It wasn't that anyone was judging him, he was just overwhelmed with the shame his public admission made through a lack of judgement, brought upon him. I have also seen people decide AA is not for them after hearing detailed accounts of behaviour that they just didn't relate to.
The closet drinking alcoholic house wife does not need to hear the detailed criminal and deviant actions of the alcoholic marauding child molester. What she needs to hear is about alcoholism, allergy, craving, lack of control, no defence etc (our common problem)and our common solution and all of this can be accomplished without the gory details.
Col, my suggestion is when you hear something like this, run it past what the big book says we should be doing. If it doesn't fit then it is an individual opinion and not part of the AA program, and if it does, well either way you have learnt something.
Thanks for the responses all. Pappy, I love ya! :) I've only been around for 7 months, and I've seen many come, go, continuously relapse and many not take it all that seriously. To be honest, I was not really taking that angle into account when I was posting about my resentment. Thanks for helping me to consider that. Also, I agree with Dean- if a meeting is full of old timers, a newcomer is best to simply listen:) Not everyone agrees with me, though.. And sometimes others question my thought on this, asking why I never share at such meetings. My thoughts are if I'm sitting in a room with the majority of guys having 15, 20 or more years of sobriety or more life experience in general they probably have some wisdom to share.. And I should probably just shut up lol.
-- Edited by Col on Wednesday 9th of January 2013 12:26:32 PM
Yeah, I am one that doesn't agree. Forcing myself to share at least a few sentences at every meeting got ME over my insecurity about talking in front of people, and also let others know who and what I'm about. Once I started doing that, people started talking to me more, coming up to me and telling me they like what I shared if nothing else, and it broke the ice that seemed to be thicker than what's currently on the river behind my house. You could build a house and fish on it!
I still don't go on at ANY meeting for more than a quick few words - maybe 30 seconds usually - but I never ever allow myself to pass. It's service in mind - showing up - saying hello and at least that I'm grateful to be there - are the simple things I needed to start with, and because of it, I have now gotten a lot of other opportunities. I have been asked to start putting myself out there to sponsor, I have been asked to be a club member, to speak at the jail, to tell my story at the open speaker meeting, to think about becoming a board member when I hit my 1 yr mark.
Everything I need to survive and thrive with this disease is offered by Him. I can trust He will provide for me.
I am very blessed and honored that people want to get to know me, trust me, encourage me, allow me to help and be of service, and that I have this chance, this gift of life, sobriety and gratitude... and it started with my HP guiding me with some simple words and appreciation during meetings.
I sharpen my listening skills during the quiet moments with my HP.
__________________
Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
I can see where your comming from because a similar situation happend at a meeting I was at a few days ago. The one oldtimer said that newcommers are really good for only one thing and that's war stories and then he went on to say that we all have those. That was not directed at me that night, but being still fairly new kind of got discouraged because I share more about my feelings and how to deal with life now that I am sober and help not to pick up a drink. But, then I talked to another old timer and she is lovely, she told me that the newcommers keep it green for her and help her take on responsibilty in her own recovery by sponsoring and reaching out to the newcommer. She made me feel alittle bit better but I am also alittle bit afraide to share.
Don't be afraid to share. You'll always have something to say that will help someone. I find that now I'm out of newbie territory and moving into intermediate I'm looking at the program in a different way, that is I'm seeing layers and depths to it I didn't see earlier. And it's a wonderful thing. But I need to hear new members to sometimes remind me that this isn't a cosmic holiday and navel gazing tour that I'm on, and that it's a life or death, more serious than anything I will ever do in my life, and I can be back there sad and confused like that new member if I don't keep that right at the front of my mind. I don't get the blunt reminder from a ten year sober person telling their story. I get that from a 30 day sober person telling theirs.
Every share has something important in it for someone, and a couple of words that you might never even guess at the power of could save a life.
Thanks for your interest re: how we A.A.s feel about people just coming to have their court papers signed.... The ONLY requirment for A.A. membership, is a desire to stop drinking. So...most of these folks are NOT members. Years ago, I would ask when chairing, at the BEGINNING of the meeting, for those forced to be there by the courts, to bring me their papers NOW ( at the start ) I wanted to give them an out, if they do not want to be there, I prefer they go! I was asked to sign a stack of those forms once. I did it! And GASP! Someone in the club, broke my anonymity to the D.A.!!!! HOLY SHIT! I was SUBPEONAED to COURT as a member of Alcoholics ANONYMOUS! I laugh now...but I was terrified ( an A. A. went with me of course ) The court room was full, and the D.A. stated to the judge, "There is a member of Alcoholics ANONYMOUS, in the court today, but she wishes her anonymity protected". Judge says ,"Let her approach the bench" LOL LOL LOL....OMG! Well of course I stood up, and my anonymity was broken to the entire courtroom :).... The prosecuting attorney produced the stack of forms...."Is THAT your signature????" (I had used only my last initial...) Me, " Yes. I guess so"... the lawyer," WELL...when did you sign them????? "...... Me, " I DUNNO....." Lawyer," WELLL..... WAS IT SUMMER?????? WINTER????" (very pissed off by now) Me, " I dunno....." Lawyer, "WELL WHOS IN CHARGE DOWN AT THAT A.A. PLACE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?" Me, "Nobody".......... You see my sacred fellowship, does not answer to the courts, nor do I....... they continue to dump people upon us, who do not (seem to) have any "desire to stop drinking".....and contrary to what "Dr." Phil says. that quality is a MUST, for this thing to work......I Always hope, dream, pray, and wish that some tiny tid bit, of what is said, in the meeting, will reach the heart of the drunk, who is forced to be there.....but.....I get to stay sober, by carrying A. A.'s message to THEM. We LOVE new people (no matter how they find us), but more often than not, the courts tactics cannot succeed (in my opinion only :) ) Thanks and blessings!
I was forced to go to out patient treatment after my second DWI. I had no intention of quitting any longer than I had to but I did get an awful lot out of it. Probably why I am more receptive to AA now.
