I remember in my first years of sobriety I considered myself to be an alcoholic and drug addict with mental illness. I tried to treat both things separately. I didn't really understand what alcoholism is, a disease that centers in the mind not only conerning alcohol but concerning all my other problems, financial, personal relationships, my effectiveness for God, my own healing.
I must have spent thousands of hours going to therpay, and thousands of dollars for the most high-class well-known well-educated fancy doctors in the country. These people concentrated a lot on meds and they let me talk about the problem for a whole hour every week. Not once did any of them mention God.
I tried to change my thinking, I used all the will power I could muster, and although I knew some things about myself it was all just jumbled up in my head still. I would suffer between therapy appointments, waiting to be saved again each Wednesdays by another human being who had no spiritual solution.
Some weeks I would get temporary relief and I always demanded more and more out of doctors. I spent thousands of hours trying to diagnose myself and learn about meds on the internet, I became a helpless complainer to my docs. The truth is they didn't know how to fix me any more than I did and sometimes they would invalidate me or dominate me and I hated being a consumer of the mental health system. It was time-consuming, costly and frustrating.
The day came when the pain was great enough that even me with all my years of sobriety, I had to admit my life was still completely unmanageable and I needed spiritual help. Oh, I had tried church and all that other stuff but none of it could root in my heart, I had not had the basic spiritual awakeing offered in the 12 steps.
Speaking of the spiritual awakening, I waited for that to come and it never did. I felt sure that I would know it if it had. I figured it was some kind of white light experience like Bill had in the hospital, I had never allowed anyone to explain the Spiritual Appendix to me so I didn't know what it looked like.
The day I humbled myself and allowed a sponsor to guide me through the Big Book, and I did the work myself, that was the day everything changed. This was a lady who did the work with a Massachusetts Hyannis big book steps sponsor and although there are many doing something like it today, it's not the same at all...this is the most profundly deep thing happening in the world today, and believe you me, the doctors know it.
I had the awakening and I can't tell you what month it happened, it's not like that...it's something that comes over a number of months. During the writing of my 4th step one day I realized I needed to let go of some medicines so i did that, about half of them. The rest fell away later on as I continued with the latter steps.
I still see my therapist about once every 5 weeks, I guess we've become friends and he considers me a very interesting subject. I'm not quite sure why I haven't said goodbye to him, it's probably time now...I'll thank him for his friendship and wish him well...I'm with God now.
i'm glad this approach worked out for you. i see a therapist once a week and a psychiatrist once every 6 weeks. i do this in conjunction with attending aa meetings. i don't go to my therapist to talk about god, i go there to work on other problems i have outside of aa. there are people who are sober and in aa who need to take medications to manage physical and psychological illnesses. this is a very touchy subject with me, as i have been to countless meetings where aa members have tried to play doctor. i say look at your chip..."to thine own self be true"
Hi Odat, I can never tell you what to do as far as medicine cause Im not a doctor, but Ive found that I need to place my trust in a professional who I can trust and use the program with all honesty. I once stopped taking my medicine and I wound up in an sanitarium that was the worst experience of my life, it took many years to sort it out. I've found the AA program helps entirely with my condition, but with my outside issue of illness, I follow what I have found in the big book of "never knocking the advice of a good doctor or therapist, they are on this earth to help and most give freely of themselves". I've found in my experience I need to take my medicine as my professional tells me, and Ive also got to have a professional whom I trust. I've learned to keep quiet about these sorts of things as theyre not understood. My most remarkable imrpovements have occured when I've stayed sober and followed the AA program with sincerity, but Still taking my meds as my professional advises. I've already said, there was once a time when I played doctor by myself and figured alcohol and cigarettes could calm me down enough to be sane, and I ended up in a mess that was so devastating it has taken the last 4 years to clean up. I began drinking heavily while off medication and the alcohol was linked to my outside issue of illness which triggered a problem in my brain so awful I had a very real near death experience. The two issues of alcoholism and sickness are connected but at the same time I need to listen to a therapist and take my medicine as prescribed. I've learned that you should never trust a person about your medication besides a professional. It's a hard thing to grasp because the illness we have of alcoholism is centered in our mind, but if we have been diagnosed with a generic condition and we have a professional telling us we need medicine wed be best to trust the doctor. I used to think that psychiatrists were phony, sick, evil people, who were jsut throwing around drugs and treating people improperly... I do disagree with a lot of theyre treatments, but these people have gone to school for over 12 years understanding the mind, and when I finally spoke 100% clearly to my therapist about my situation they got my medicine right (Which is a low dose of proper medication) and I began improving significantly, its actually quite serious! ... When I began imrpoving more and more I began using the AA program in more clarity and Ive found the combination of the two are returning me to my proper stability. I've heard a lot of people tell me what to do with my pills but Ive found you should really on ever trust a qualified professional, they are here for a reason, and they know theyre stuff, especially when they tell you you need medicine and if you continue sobriety, one day you may need none, you should really listen, Ive been through things in my life with paranoid illness so grave I am only here by an act of somehting greater than myself, and while its connected to my drinking, I absolutely CANNOT PLACE MY SICKNESS IN THE CARE OF MY OWN HANDS, I NEED MY DOCTOR, AND ITS VERY SERIOUS!! -I found that I need to have a doctor I can speak very clearly to, a GOOD doctor, who listens, and that I can trust, and I need to listen to theyre direction. In the big book in a certain place theres a part where I listed above of never knocking the advice of a good doctor or psychiatrist, they are on this earth for a reason, and believe me, you need to trust them if theyre telling you you need medication, but you need to have a proper relationship with a proper doctor. I know I sound like Im rambling but this is one of those issues the world hasnt fully grasped yet, and if you been diagnosed with an acutal illness and you start thinking that you can treat yourself and the whole mental health industry is shit (Believe me, a lot of theyre employees and hospitals ARE shit, but they actually know things) You can wind up in more trouble than you ever imagined, I almost lost my life or ended up in a home for the remainder of my days by playing doctor and doing what I thought was best. I would trust a professional. a Good professional who you trust.
stuff about trusting your doctor is on page 133 in the big book: the family afterward.
Closer.
-- Edited by Closer on Friday 21st of September 2012 09:53:37 PM
I am reminded of this line in "More About Alcoholism", perfect title for the chapter..."Quite as important was the discovery that spiritual principles would solve all my problems."
You've somehow managed to express thoughts and feelings in a very simple explanation of what I experienced ... I first became aware of my addiction in '93 ... and the years that followed were filled with rehabs, psychologists and psychiatrists ... pills followed and therapy included self-help concepts that simply didn't fix me ... so for 15 more years I suffered severe depression and alcoholism ... (I found out later that I was my problem ... and that all this 'self-help'
B.S was simply building up the very person I needed to get rid of ...)
When at death's door, I gave up, again ... begged my wife to take me to another rehab to dry out ... it took three days for me to be able to even walk again ... again I was on all kinds of pills, some very strong ... I was morally and spiritually bankrupt ... nothing left to live for is the way I was thinking ... but then a therapist handed me his copy of 'The Shack' and I read it while in rehab ... that was my first time having an 'awakening' ... the whole 'CONCEPT' of God was my BIGGEST road block ... with that road block removed, I saw things differently than I ever had before ... I knew without doubt, that here was the higher power I so much wanted to find ...
I became eager to work the program this time, instead of just going through the process on a 'dry drunk' as they call it ... This time I felt the power from within to come to know and to have faith and trust in this power of the spiritual world ... So, I worked the AA program with all the earnestness of a drowning man holding onto a lifeline ... a few months after rehab, I had another more astounding 'awakening' ... I'll never ever forget the time and place of this revelation ... it was body numbing and I was dazed for a few moments, I had finished my fifth, sixth, and seventh steps recently and it suddenly dawned on me, I'm free of all that old garbage i had in my life and I felt reborn to a new way of thinking ...
I suddenly knew that the power was from within, where God resides, and I let Him take over and begged Him to take me today and do with me as He saw fit, as I do every morning ... Everything, and I do mean 'EVERYTHING' in my life changed ... I drew upon this power to change my thinking, I have faith that everything is going to be okay ... I stopped taking all those pills that skewed my thinking and made it impossible to think clearly ... (I don't recommend others to stop their meds without medical advice), but I had 'total faith' I was in God's hands and the miracle happened for me ... and if you have the slightest bit of 'doubt' in your mind, it doesn't work ... for me, this was 4 years ago ...
All I'm trying to say here really, is that I agree with Odat, that many solutions to life's problems depend on being in 'spiritually fit' condition ... I don't need alcohol nor pills as a crutch anymore, my strength and healing come from a different source, and that one is God, may you find Him now ...
God Bless you all, Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
i'm glad this approach worked out for you. i see a therapist once a week and a psychiatrist once every 6 weeks. i do this in conjunction with attending aa meetings. i don't go to my therapist to talk about god, i go there to work on other problems i have outside of aa. there are people who are sober and in aa who need to take medications to manage physical and psychological illnesses. this is a very touchy subject with me, as i have been to countless meetings where aa members have tried to play doctor. i say look at your chip..."to thine own self be true"
It's a touchy subject for a lot of people in AA who hear the rather strained view that somehow the BB and/or the steps allows one to play M.D. in the rooms.
Here's what the Big Book says about such views:
We are convinced that a spiritual mode of living is a most powerful health restorative...
But this does not mean that we disregard human health measures. God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds. Do not hesitate to take your health problems to such persons. Most of them give freely of themselves, that their fellows may enjoy sound minds and bodies. Try to remember that though God has wrought miracles among us, we should never belittle a good doctor or psychiatrist. Their services are often indispensable in treating a newomer and in following his case afterward.
Psychiatry and psychology, in particular are services that many AAers need and use. With full approval of AA principles and experience.
Bill Wilson, for one, sought psychiatric care for a few years--from two separate medical professionals. This was long after he took the steps. This was long after he WROTE the stoeps. This psychiatric care was crucial in curing his depression.
The conventional wisdom in modern times, like now, both in and out of AA, is that people who read a book or two and then discontinue medications properly prescribed, engage in needlessly and tragically risky behavior.
Great observation, Susan. I'm with God too, despite the occasional scoffer. What I do find alarming, however, is the level of insensitivity found in cyberspace nowadays. Let's face it though: There will always be a select few who disagree with us, but rest assured it doesn't hurt our cause any. Just as the saying goes 'the road ahead is never boring', so is our path towards true freedom. Onward, my sister.
-- Edited by Mr_David on Saturday 22nd of September 2012 01:00:53 AM
odat and Pappy, I'm glad that you were both able to recover on your own.
In my experience: I cannot just pray away my mental disorders, much like I could not just pray away my alcoholism. I have to take action and "do the work" for myself under the guidance of my Higher Power in order to reach stability. As chris said, I go to AA meetings to work on my alcoholism, and I see a therapist and psychiatrist/psychologist to work on my mental disorders. I MUST treat both in order to remain functional, and my Higher Power provides me with the tools and strength to do that.
All I can say Emy, as far as meds go, is that my whole attitude and outlook on life has changed ... I have found a lost faith in my higher power, God ... and in so doing, i have started reading the 'Good Book' as Dr Bob called the Bible ... If you care, read Matthew 17:20 ... that will explain my position here ...
I don't expect everyone to understand nor believe, cause most don't ... and if you'll re-read my above post, I stated:
(I don't recommend others to stop their meds without medical advice), but I had 'total faith' I was in God's hands and the miracle happened for me ... and if you have the slightest bit of 'doubt' in your mind, it doesn't work ...
I just want to be very clear of my thoughts and beliefs here ...
Love ya and God Bless, Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
All I can say Emy, as far as meds go, is that my whole attitude and outlook on life has changed ... I have found a lost faith in my higher power, God ... and in so doing, i have started reading the 'Good Book' as Dr Bob called the Bible ... If you care, read Matthew 17:20 ... that will explain my position here ...
I don't expect everyone to understand nor believe, cause most don't ... and if you'll re-read my above post, I stated:
[I stopped taking all those pills that skewed my thinking and made it impossible to think clearly ... ](I don't recommend others to stop their meds without medical advice), but I had 'total faith' I was in God's hands and the miracle happened for me ... and if you have the slightest bit of 'doubt' in your mind, it doesn't work ...
I just want to be very clear of my thoughts and beliefs here ...
I'm curious, Pappy. Did you get medical advice before you "stopped taking all those pills that skewed [your] thinking"...?
It's like this, I was about a week out of going to my 'Addictions Specialist' when I simply stopped taking them ... I spent a few awkward feeling days but got to progressively feeling better ... I saw my Dr and told him what I did ... He said that that was a risky move but I'm happy you did it ... and that from now on, he said to consult him before I make a change like that ...
A few trips to him later, he pronounced me 'good to go' and prescribed for me to continue my AA meetings and to practice the principles of AA ... I said I thoroughly intend to do just that ... that was four years ago ... (by the way ... my Dr was one of the most successful Dr.s in addiction recovery in the Atlanta area ... He was also a recovering Alcoholic ...)
Love ya and God Bless, Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
It's like this, I was about a week out of going to my 'Addictions Specialist' whenI simply stopped taking them ... I spent a few awkward feeling days but got to progressively feeling better ... I saw my Dr and told him what I did ... He said that that was a risky move but I'm happy you did it ... and that from now on, he said to consult him before I make a change like that ...
A few trips to him later, he pronounced me 'good to go' and prescribed for me to continue my AA meetings and to practice the principles of AA ... I said I thoroughly intend to do just that ... that was four years ago ... (by the way ... my Dr was one of the most successful Dr.s in addiction recovery in the Atlanta area ... He was also a recovering Alcoholic ...)
Love ya and God Bless, Pappy
Ah, so you rolled the dice.
Risky.
odat rolled the dice, too, when she worked the 4th step and the later steps.
Your story, Pappy, is clearer now for me. It is basically, "This is what I did. But don't you guys do it, because it wasn't a good idea. I just (luckily)got away with it."
Which can be persuasive to some.
But it's risky. Very risky.
I'm glad your and odat's gambles turned out to be 7/11. That's really great the way it worked out for youse.
Here's a similar story. But this one came up snake eyes:
Guy by the name of Leslie Haun in Kentucky. In AA. Afflicted with some kind of mental disorder (schizoprhenia affective?) Working the program of AA. Going to meetings. Doing the spiritual deal. Apparently not taking his meds anymore.
Got into a beef. Killed his sponsor. Beat him to death. Haun pleaded out, got 20 years last month.
Risky behavior, not taking those meds.
Didn't work out as well with him.
Again, glad it worked out for you and odat.
Tanin
Accused murderer believes victim isn't dead; says victim has visited him in jail; son is charged with tampering with evidence..,
COVINGTON Leslie Haun told a state psychiatrist that he isnt convinced the man he is accused of beating to death with an aluminum bat and table leg is actually dead.
Why the doubt? Haun thinks the dead man has since visited him in jail.
That was Dr. Timothy Allens testimony during Hauns competency hearing Monday in Kenton Circuit Court. Judge Patricia Summe did not immediately rule on whether Haun is competent to stand trial.
Assistant Commonwealths Attorney Jim Redwine urged the judge to find the 48-year-old Haun competent.
Perhaps in the course of a trial we will prove beyond a reasonable doubt not only to a jury but to him as well that he did in fact kill somebody, Redwine said.
Public defender Eva Hager argued that a defendant who thinks the person they charged with killing visited them in jail cant possibly participate in their own defense.
Allen said Haun can function in society when he is on medication. Haun has an IQ of 111; the average range is 85 to 115.
He is a bright individual, Allen said. No concern about his cognitive function related to the court process.
It is when Haun is off his medication when he hears voices, Allen said. There have been times Haun has delusions of various entities, often of the demonic type, chasing after him. Haun once told a judge he led police on a 50-mile chase in a stolen car because Jesus provided the car for him to escape the demons that were chasing him.
Another time Haun told authorities his name was Sabo. When a judge questioned the name, Haun told him, Thats what they call me in the third dimension.
Allen said the staff at the Kentucky Correctional Psychiatric Center in La Grange had worked with Haun over the years. A state mental evaluation in October diagnosed Haun with schizoaffective disorder, a condition that caused symptoms of schizophrenia such as hallucinations or delusions and symptoms of mood disorders, such as mania or depression, according to the Mayo Clinic.
Haun is charged with murder for the killing of 54-year-old Shain Pierce last September in Covington. Pierce let Haun stay at his apartment after he was kicked out of a drug and alcohol treatment facility. The two men had met at Alcoholics Anonymous.
Investigators say Pierce returned to his apartment after having a toe amputated to Haun drinking alcohol. When Pierce ordered Haun to leave, there was a struggle.
The trial in the killing of Pierce was set for June 5, but that date is in jeopardy because the state crime lab hasnt completed DNA testing on the murder weapon. Hauns son, 22-year-old Robert Haun, is accused of trying to throw the bat and table leg used in the beating down a sewer. Investigators were able to find the bat but could not find the table leg, according to court records.
The son is charged with tampering with physical evidence and is set to be tried with his dad.
Tanin, that news story hits very close to home for me (I have the same predominant diagnosis as that man.) What's that saying, "There but for the Grace of God go I" ?
I know a lot of people who threw away the meds while sober...many say that is the day their sobriety really started. The suggestion I give to my sponsees is something different than that, but I want them to trust themselves more than anything.
Since I first began the process in the Big Book (which covered 2 years time) I have absolutely had doctors try to delay my spiritual progress...there is a spiritual battle being fought out there today...don't think it doesn't exist.
There are some docs who can be helpful later on in the latter steps if they're open to spirituality but ONLY an alcoholic can help another alcoholic recover.
Many of these docs are terrified of losing their positions. Most alcoholics I knew in AA in my earlier years were white-knuckling it through sobrety still suffering...few of us were admitting how bad we really felt. And many would return to inpatient hospitalization every once in a while...they were never free.
All one has to do is look up the definition of "sober" in the dictionary to find more.
In the last meeting I was in there was a newcomer saying how their sponsor urged them to get off their psych meds. He was saying he now felt like committing suicide. The sponsor I know is basically a nice guy but a total loose cannon and should be on some meds. He's 17 years sober I think so I don't think the program is going to get rid of that if it hasn't already. Hrmm.
Yeah, I just took 2 people's inventory but I call it like I see it. One unstable person telling another more unstable person to get off their meds so they can both be unstable together. This is why AA recommends sticking to guidelines like not playing doctor and following the pamphlet on sponsorship.
__________________
Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Had I not gotten sober I doubt my other brain-based disorders would have come to the attention of myself and my health practitioners. As it was, I didn't know what was "still wrong" with me until ten years into my recovery. And it took another bit of time to attain the most functional and healthy balance for the co-occurring disorders. But what a relief when ti all finally came together and I could act like a reasonably normal human being! Unfortunately I still periodically feel compelled to get off my remaining psychotropic (because I feel well, of course) but each time ends in disaster. I am very grateful for the competent and caring practitioners I have encountered who help me keep on keeping on!
Welp, I'm basically spending my day today taking care of myself and my illness with the Higher Power...I'll go and work with the new woman...she is someone with the willingness to follow the directions I pass on to her that were passed on to me as outlined in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous...none of it gets changed or watered down. Like me she has found there is nothing left to discuss...there is nothing left to debate...we will both be taking spiritual action today and then we'll sit in a room of others who are doing the program the way it's laid out, everyone's gotten the same directions...she's willing to listen and I'm willing to share and I'll hold her hand during the prayer...we'll both be fulfilled...that's all I know today.
This is a bit of a repost for me, but it's not a millions miles away. There's a long term sober guy on another recovery board who, if he hears AA folks telling a newcomer to stop taking meds, asks if the person knows that it is a criminal offence in his state to practise medicine without a licence. He doesn't accuse, just reminds. Always like that one. :)
AA is about alcohol. Nothing in the Big Book says that you can't take prescription mental health meds. Indeed, as quoted above, it implies the opposite.
And I think that we've all heard the stories about people in AA stopping meds and what can happen.
I had a friend I made through AA about five years ago. She was seeing a psychiatrist for alcoholism, along with OTHER reasons. She attened AA meetings religiously. Every time she went, she was pushed into getting a sponsor. Well, she did. Her sponsor is a woman who talks a good talk when it came to meetings. This is only my impression, but I felt like her whole life revolves around AA., talking the talk at meetings, and hitting on the the new women in order in AA in order to sway them toward her way of thinking.
My friend chose her as a sponsor. This woman told her to get rid of all of her mediications...that her Higher Power would take care of her.
My friend committed suicide three weeks later.
So, you "armchair" psychiatrists.....KNOCK IT OFF! Many people who suffer from alcoholism also have other issues.
BTW.....if we are all so smart and feel that finding a "Higher Power" will help us, why did they include Dr. Silkworth's opinion in the Big Book?
I'm one of the few people that say anyone needing medication FOR ANYTHING HEALTH WISE,listen to your dr & take stuff prescribed,as prescribed.I am extremely grateful that is my mentality & caring for others health to understand as I'm now in a position that requires medication.I have serious back problems & with it chronic fatigue,without medication I'm basically bedridden.We'd had well known members (long term sobriety/good people )suicide or die from accidents because they've gone off needed medication.Glad to read here the replies.................feel more at ease to be here.
