Thanks odat, ... ... ... God tells us He'll never put on us more than we can bare ... great share!

I was thinking a little more about this:

You wrote: My steps sponsor, the first person I ever trusted with all of me, saw me in pain over my mistake and kicked me while I was down over and over in various ways. Basically she was in a time of doubt and indecision in her life and has a jealousy problem, so putting me into deeper pain was a way to compare herself to me and falsely feed her ego. She used it to get a boyfriend and some security.

Odat, I had an experience very close to this with my sponsor that I just left. And after lots of meditation on it, I realized she was doing the best she could for me. For me to decide what her problems are - tell them to others- hmmmm... not really God's ideas for me. i literally just did this in a post here a couple days ago.

I had to turn it over to the big HP. Let him decide what her problems were, not saying I'm not being totally judgmental of her still to this day, but every day I turn it over (it's been only 3 days) I feel a little lighter.

It's been so good to have her out of my life, but yet I see so much good in her now. I can truly say I love her today, and I really want her life to be blessed. I can look back at it now that I'm not IN IT - and see that I was always wondering what the right answer for her was going to be - and even when I was so open and honest with myself, I was still not completely able to let my guard down for reasons I had to work the steps on.

I asked God to take my defects of character that were presented from that situation. I was judgmental (of her problems)- I was fearful (of being hurt by her) - I wasn't accepting her as she is (a human alcoholic and child of my God), I wasn't accepting myself (that who I am is good enough today) - I was pitiful of myself (why couldn't I have the perfect sponsor) I was blaming (she made me feel crappy and sad like this) I was jealous (of other sponsee's she seemed to get along better with, and how different she acted around them) - I was egotistical (in thinking she was better than me) - the list of things went on and on and on... and I have given them to my God for today. wwwwwwwwwwwwehhhheeeeew!~ Thank you HP!

The worst thing was - I moved on to return being sponsored by my original sponsor. When I left her, I judged her by saying she talks to much - and never listens to me. You KNOW I have a lot to say ;) Sheesh need to work the steps on that one! But anyhow - I immediately told her ALLLLLLllll of the details about the now EX sponsor ---how she belittled me, kicked me when I was down, was impatient with me when I needed patience, was rude and hurt my feelings when I was so confused, and feeling PITY for myself because I thought that she was super human, and should be better at this mind reading stuff, and just KNOW when I'm at my wits end and can't handle her blunt rude remarks. And my new sponsor listened like she never listened before. And there is was. My lesson in humanity - the imperfect world that is NEVER going to be perfect - but never fails to have something to teach me. So I get to learn how to let someone else do 95 % of the talking now - and that is EXACTLY what my HP has been offering me.

And who did I think I was anyway... coming up with this big thing about my ex sponsor or anyone else anyhow. As if It's all for me to decide. As if it's all on my shoulders. As if I can really truly just take all this on, proclaim all her defects of character as if I know them, and then get away with the wildest character assasignation yet - in my new found "VICTORY" over alcohol. You know, I'm victorious now right? Since I finished the steps? I'm done now forever ;)

Yup. Hi. I'm Natasha. I'm STILL an alcoholic.

A barely recovered alcoholic who doesn't know jack squat from a jack rabbit - with a day or two over 5 months - OUT TO SAVE THE WORLD> ya. That's me again - I'm God again - bam! Just like that.

So. I come here to this MIP board... humbly before you... hoping that somehow, me blabbing all this out with help, and actually, It's just God helping me again when I need to see myself in writing.

Thanks Odat - for letting the light in today - and for being here.

Tasha, i also believe you had written a post about singing (amazing grace?) and about how low notes make the song just as much as high notes (singing in your kitchen?) I'm not a creeper. Swear. But that quote reminded me of that post.

 

The sponsors I had all were empathetic...meaning they had been there and done that themselves and got to tell on themselves with other sponsors.  That leveled the playing field for me.  I also knew that at times they had done worse than me in certain areas so we were humans being human.  I had no expectations of superiority of a sponsor even while I was grateful that they lent me support for my journey.  They were healing and making their lives better and that is what I respected.  They were all honorable and still only human.  When they screwed up it was all about the human side of us all.  I changed sponsors when I needed to move beyond the one I was working with at the time and always with a blessing.  Worse experience I had with a sponsor was getting chewed out and hung up on when I called my sponsor and then proceeded to try to fix him.  Just pissed him off to no end and then we went on.   Forgiveness is one of the best and most healing tools in my tool box.    ((((hugs))))

Odat, it's also a bit likely that your sponsor was frustrated for the wrong reasons. Taking credit for someone else's sobriety is a double edged sword, when the person stumbles.

I was really angry at my 1st sponsor when I had to end that arrangement and find a new sponsor. He kept canceling our meetings and such and had stopped going to meetings pretty much. I felt abandoned and I was really upset. Of course, now time has passed and I have gone through my own phases of going to more meetings, then less (though I never go down to zero like him but whatever). We are friends now and I realize all he was ever doing was helping me for free anyhow so what is to get mad over? He took me as far as I could go in 1 year and it worked. He also took the worst of my nutty early sobriety cuz he did answer my calls and such every day for a whole year. Now that I have clarity on that I can offer him a sincere thank you instead of a resentment for the fact that we couldn't be sponsor/sponsee forever. Not saying this directly relates to Odat's post...just my experience with my 1st sponsor.

odat wrote:

---

When I was just through the writing of my 4th step I made a big mistake in my life. I had grown so much and found God and I made the mistake to shoot myself in the foot, so I'd be back in my pain that I was so used to. It took me over 2 years to see that. Self-sabotage.

My steps sponsor, the first person I ever trusted with all of me, saw me in pain over my mistake and kicked me while I was down over and over in various ways. Basically she was in a time of doubt and indecision in her life and has a jealousy problem, so putting me into deeper pain was a way to compare herself to me and falsely feed her ego. She used it to get a boyfriend and some security. 

I knew something was wrong but I trusted her so much and was so helpless and suffering that it took me about a year to accept what she had done. I never told her what I knew she did and i stopped working with her. Then it took me another year to understand that although this is a deadly disease, I can't have expectations of anyone but God. I also developed some compassion for her over time and have always loved her anyway and appreciated all the help she did give me. But damn, if it wasn't painful.

All of our experiences good and horrible change us for the better. They cause us to become the loving sponsors we feel God wants us to be. Our sponsors, our experiences and our true nature all cause us to become the workers we will be in AA. We take the good we were taught and pass it on. We take the bad and say, "I want to do that differently". But mostly, it's important not to let our negative experiences embitter us. We should come out the other side sweeter.

---

Sorry to read that you had this bad experience with your sponsor, odat. Sorry to see that others also have had some significantly negative experiences with their sponsors.  I have also heard these kinds of stories elsewhere, not infrequently. I guess it is partially due to the entirely unregulated nature of sponsorship in AA. No training, no certification, no ethical requirements, no supervision, and no formal performance review. That's as it should be, as AA is an unregulated and informal organizination with no authority structure. Just the way it is. This is not Alatieen, where sponsors are trained and even have background checks done.

With bad sponsor experiences, I always think of the power asymmetry which is part of the sponsor/sponsee relationship. The sponsor almost always holds a more powerful position in the relationship because of a) his/her experience, tenure and assertiveness, and b) the sponsee's inexperience, lack of knowledge and injured and weakened state.  This is a perfect situation for someone with power to exert it over someone who is weak.

In most, by far, cases the sponsor will perform admirably and in accordance with all AA and societally-approved principles.  But, sometimes sponsors take advantage of the power asymmetry and hurt or badly treat their sponsees. Sometimes this is done through simple negligence. Other times it is intentional, for a myriad of motivations.

A few practical solutions to this problem are suggested by AA, including:

1) Take care in choosing a sponsor-Try to see what kind of person the prospective sponsor is. Don't over-rely on sobriety length. Find out from the other sponsees what kind of sponsor the prospective is.  

2) Feel free to change a sponsor-The sponsor/sponsee relationship should be one of equals--as it was in the very beginning with Dr. Bob and Bill W. If there is too much inequality in a sponsor's approach, that's a warning signal.  An AA sponsor should not take it personally if a sponsee moves over to another sponsor--the sponee's sobriety is of paramount importance.

3) Consider having more than one sponsor-Having more than one sponsor can be beneficial for some sponsees, affording a range of experiential and spiritual input rather than just one view. Also, one sponsor's advice can be commented on or explained by another sponsor.

Take a look at the AA pamphlet, "Questions & Answers On Sponsorship." It has information about these options and mucho other information about the issues we are discussing here.

Again, most (90%?) sponsors perform an excellent and ethical service for their sponsees. It is the true AA way. But there are obviously some sponsors who are limited, abusive, or are just damaged and these can cause great individual harm. Reacting to those that cause harm is something that has to be done, as illustrated in the posts by odat and others above.

However, in some cases,  a bad sponsor or bad sponsor behavior simply drives people out of AA.  That's really bad, a problem that AA doesn't know how to solve. It barely even discusses it. So, we just have to cope with the issues as they come up.

Just the way it is.

-- Edited by Tanin on Tuesday 28th of August 2012 09:26:06 AM

Good stuff, Tanin. Yes - this are the things that unfortunately happen and people do leave AA over resentments towards sponsors.

I walk shoulder to shoulder with the new woman and I depend on God to run the show, not my ego. And that's the whole issue: Am I doing sponsorship from my heart or from my ego? Am I doing it for only God and the new woman, or for my position in AA? Am I doing it because I truly want the new woman to heal, or am I dominating her with my ego?

I remember the night I asked this person to sponsor me. She told me to wait outside for her and she talked to her girlfriends for 10 minutes - I was just about the last person standing in the parking lot when she finally came out. I tried to tell myself she wanted to see if I was really willing but that's not true. That was a sign right there that her ego was involved, but I knew no better and was desperate for help. We're not supposed to dominate people, we walk shoulder to shoulder. If someone doesn't have willingness I see it pretty quickly anyway.

When God brings me someone to work with, I go right to it. I may ask for a few minutes to pray but that's about it...

I had a sponsor who would pull us girls out of the meeting, one by one, to show others she was working with people. I felt I was interrupting the meeting and I would get up embarassed. I also wanted to hear the rest of the meeting! The Big Book says "remember they are very sick" and I was sick, but new people are not stupid either. And "remember they are very sick" is not just for the new woman, it's for the sponsor too.

I had to see that my part was always being helpless, overly-dependent and always throwing myself away for others. It's been very sad for me to look at that. The things some of us think about ourselves...*shakes head*

What I'm saying to new people is, You're smart - used your discernment. Who's doing this for their position in AA and the world - and who's doing this anonymously and quietly - and from their heart?

I definitely say things that disturb people's egos....:)

That was awesome Tanin.

The first indication to me (in hindsight) that my sponsor was not a good fit for me, was when she told me upfront that she would not allow me to have more than one sponsor if she was going to sponsor me, and that I shouldn't discuss things with lots of other people - that I should "hone in" to her. YIKES! It made me go yikes then too, but I chose to stick with her anyway - thinking I had to do whatever my sponsor says. Lack of knowledge, and fear on my part. - live and learn ; )

She would be really super awesome at starting a cult though... now that I think of it.

ah, I wish I would have seen this thread earlier. Heh.

My first sponsor was the very first woman that I talked to when I started in the program (after leaving the hospital,) and I knew literally nothing about how sponsorship was supposed to work. I should have known when a friend in the program told me "good luck with that" when I told him who my sponsor was. Our relationship ended with assumptions, judgment and accusations of lying.

My second sponsor was a woman who I knew sponsored a lot of the women that I saw at meetings all the time. I really wanted to get into the step work, she told me to write my life story down but never gave me any further guidance with that. I tried to follow her suggestions but a lot of them didn't make sense to me. Eventually I stopped calling her because I never felt comfortable completely opening up to her - I always felt judged or that I wasn't doing enough.

I still look back at that and wonder if it was more me being stubborn and unwilling to change or if her suggestions were just bad. All I can do is take what both of them did teach me and keep moving forward. My HP put these women in my life for a reason and I accept that today.