What a great share! You are exactly right in that we are all here for support. Sometimes people need to check their motives but you have a great foundation in that we don't need to be judgemental, even of the guy with 33 years. He is still suffering from alcohol-ism. Just pray for that man!
I loved hearing how you acted on instinct to help the newcomer. You very well could have saved his life tonight just by self forgetting! For it is by self forgetting one finds! You found a small part of yourself. Keep it simple and you will continue to see these small realizations! It's one of the greatest parts of our gift of sobriety. Staying in the moment and intuitively knowing how to handle situations that used to baffle us.
-- Edited by stayhumble on Sunday 12th of August 2012 11:30:56 PM
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Willingness without action is fantasy!
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Tasha, imo, someone with 33 years that is trying to hit on newcomers, probably needs to go finish his drinking so he can truly get sober. I don't have a lot of tolerance for that, especially from those that have a more than a couple of years. I won't tell you what I would do but it wouldn't involve tolerance. Great job of righting a wrong. I had some @$$hole old timer bark at me before my first meeting (at 16 years old) when I asked someone nearby him if there was a soda machine. He said "we don't have any ***damn sodas here, this is AA, we have coffee and That's It!! He was 60 something and I was about to teach him that "you're never too old to get your @$$ beat lol, and this girl grabbed my hand, smiled and said, "don't listen to him, he's an old timer".
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Monday 13th of August 2012 04:36:19 AM
There is a man with 33 yrs of sobriety that took it upon himself tonight at a meeting - to cut someone short in their share - claming this person was getting off topic, "had a long way to go", and would have many counselors and lots of opportunity for help. This individual looked respectfully at the man with 33 yrs, put his head down, and fell quiet.
I have 4 months of sobriety. I don't know much. Lately, I'm realizing, I think I know more than I do, and it's actually time for me to fall quiet for a while.
But tonight I was a lioness protecting her baby cub when that man shut down this 23 yr old boy at his very first meeting ever!
Our hands dropped as we ended our prayer, my ears perked up, my eyes and feet found that boy and I said in no uncertain terms that what just happened was wrong. He was told "this wasn't the place to carry on about all of his issues". I told him this most certainly was where he could carry on about anything he felt he needed to talk about... and asked if he'd like to finish what he was saying... that I would sit back down and talk with him... and remarkably - lots of people stood behind me - they sat back down. We let that boy finish what he had to say. We told him that he was being very open and honest, and that we loved his share. He showed us that he had just slit his wrists. He told us all about himself, how he started drinking at 12, that he knew for 3 yrs already that he was an alcoholic, but didn't know what to do.
I told him there would be lots of men willing to help him, and that his being there helped me. We all chatted for 20 or so minutes, got him a big book, a phone list and offered rides.
The man with 33 yrs free of alcohol heard me say to the boy that he actually should be sharing here, and he yelled from across the room "don't forget your purse" - I said - "I'm not going anywhere". He was the same man who 13th stepped me a couple months ago. I wasn't trying to get back at him tonight, I was moving out of pure primal instinct, but I realized, I wasn't caring about him either. He is in this program too. We all need support.
I was so quick to protect that boy from walking out of that room feeling ashamed and possibly never coming back - but I did it directly in ear and eye shot of many others, including the man who in my eyes made a mistake tonight. It has occured to me now, that it's possible this man with 33 yrs is creating a little chaos in his life, possibly subconsciously setting the stage to have an excuse to leave AA - and go back to drinking.
So, lastly - I realized I'm making a lot of mistakes today too. I'm not keeping it simple. I'm taking others inventories. When another girl and I chatted after the meeting, and she told me that man had come on to her a few weeks ago - I gossiped and told her that he did that to me and another person that I know of too.
I read this morning that we should be co-workers with God. Have I done that to the very best of my ability today? For ALL who still suffer. What about the man with 33 yrs who is still suffering? Am I to truly say that even? I am not the judge of that... I'm so confused.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
..this girl ... said, "don't listen to him, he's an old timer".
Gawd, I love this line. It's tragicomical.
And not half-bad advice in many situations where newbies are coming into the various stations of AA across the land.
StPeteDean wrote:
Tasha, imo, someone with 33 years that is trying to hit on newcomers, probably needs to go finish his drinking so he can truly get sober. I don't have a lot of tolerance for that, especially from those that have a more than a couple of years. I won't tell you what I would do but it wouldn't involve tolerance. Great job of righting a wrong. I had some @$$hole old timer bark at me before my first meeting (at 16 years old) when I asked someone nearby him if there was a soda machine. He said "we don't have any ***damn sodas here, this is AA, we have coffee and That's It!! He was 60 something and I was about to teach him that "you're never too old to get your @$$ beat lol, and this girl grabbed my hand, smiled and said, "don't listen to him, he's an old timer".
Issues raised by Dean's ESH here are both revealing and frustrating. At one level, we have simple direct criticism of an AA who is reported to have committed two offenses; 1) arbitrarily and in a bullying fashion cutting off a share, and, 2) repeated 13th stepping. This analysis/criticism is beneficial since it exhibits a value judgement that what the bully/13th stepper is not representing the true principles and code of AA. This is good for newbie visitors to this site. It's good for them to know that maladaptive and predatory behavior in AA is not really condoned. On the other hand, such criticism could be called "negative." And that, therefore, it should not be discussed since it conflicts with other AA embraced concepts such as "unity."
Me, I think it is important to talk about these things. I appreciate the sharing and positions of Tasha and Dean in this thread. Passivity won't solve the bullying and 13th stepping problems that AA obviously has. Analysis, critique and willingness to face tough issues will. Maybe.
Another issue gleaned from Dean's offering above is the consideration of options that we (sometimes?, often?) in AA consider to solve problems. Violence and confrontation are high up on the list. Some kind of force, either verbal or physical, always seems to be in the evoked set of responses to events that we don't like or disagree with. Not very spiritual, actually. But it is very human. Probably can't be changed. "Tolerance is our code," the saying goes. Unless we don't think it is justified in a particular instance. I think newcomers to AA see this double standard in AA, same as they see it in the general society. Is AA a more civilized, safer environment than the regular outside world? That's a good question to ponder, I think.
Lastly, both Dean's story about the unnecesarily brusque reply to a 16-year-old and Tasha's report of an AA member routinely 13th stepping women, remind me of the concept of power assymetry in interpersonal relations. Dean's old-timer and Tasha's 33 year man don't just pick on people. They pick on people who are in a weak state: newcomers who are unsure, inexperienced, unconfident, and deferential. So, it's not even a fair contest. Very predatory.
Maybe some of these issues contribute to the lack of growth in AA in recent years. Growth in U.S. has very much flattened out. Worldwide, AA membership is significantly reduced in the last 10+ years. Is AA in decline? If it is, is it because of bullying/13th stepping? To think about such questions, to talk about such issues, is not anti-unity. It is an effort toward unity.
And survival.
Bill W. wrote in 1960:
"Clearly, our first duty to A.A.'s future is to maintain in full strength what we now have. Only the most vigilant caretaking can assure this. Never should we be lulled into complacent self-satisfaction by the wide acclaim and success that are everywhere ours. This is the subtle temptation which could render us stagnant today, perchance disintegrate us tomorrow. We have always rallied to meet and transcend failure and crisis. Problems have been our stimulants. How well, though, shall we be able to meet the problems of success?"
I think we in AA are being "lulled" lately. I see signs of it almost everywhere. It affects all of us. And it's not really "negativity" to discuss it frankly and fearlessly. That's what Dean and Tasha did. One old-timer and one newbie. That's good.
-- Edited by Tanin on Monday 13th of August 2012 07:45:39 AM
(((((Tasha))))) that sounds more confident than confused...You exercised your value systems and gave a newcomer a humble opportunity...Well done!! Time doesn't equal sobriety and we have no leaders in recovery. Well done again.
Tanin "we seek progress not perfection". I think you're "gleening" a bit to much here. Sure, when yelled at before my first AA meeting, at age 16 (36 years ago), I was feeling like a violent response may have been the solution. Your post is muddy at best and I'm sure that you didn't mean to misconstrue (giving you the benefit of the doubt to set a positive example for you ) that my undisclosed solution to the 13th stepper in question, was violent, as it certainly would not be. Interesting that you consider a verbal confrontation as "violent". Do you have an personal experiences that you'd like to share with us or would that violate your anonymity. It's what we do here, sharing Our experience, strength, and hope.
By the way, do you think that the principals of "Tolerance and Unity" are more important than the safety of our newcomers? And how "Spiritual" is it to "Tolerate" a sexual predator routinely preying upon our weakest members?
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Monday 13th of August 2012 08:09:32 AM
I spelled out what I thought was "muddy" about your post, was I unclear about that? Your use of "verbal" in conjunction with violent, inferred that you believe them to be related. And I disagree with you that you think that it's common practice for AA groups to consider either. In my experience, groups have had exhibited extreme tolerance to all kinds of inappropriate behavior in meeting rooms. That seems to be the norm.
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Monday 13th of August 2012 08:14:28 AM
Hey Tasha, First of all......BRAVO! Well done. This is the good and bad of the meetings, right? --The bad-- Long term sober folks who feel they are at the top of the pecking order through distorted "group dynamics". - The human failings of bullying and the side effects of domination through sexual conquest of the confused and weak. Not pretty. - This is actually made worse because this old timer is supposed to be growing spiritually. How can he have come to this? - A long term member possibly chasing a newbie away at a moment of vulnerability? How does that even happen? - There is more, but lets confine it to your story. --The good-- - A young woman, with issues of her own, relatively new to the program, recognizes a wrong and steps outside of the "group dynamics." That came from your understanding of the program. - Further, your understanding for the old timer, even though he was the bad guy in this, shows me that your grasp of the program (the way I see it anyway) is far advanced. The others above noted that they, like I, could not grasp that for years.
I think you are keeping things as simple as you can with the situation handed to you. What else could you do? Deny your sense of right and wrong? To keep it simple, if there are further problems with the old timer, you could get him aside and give him a hug (if you think you can), and talk with him one on one and tell him your concerns including the fact that some of the ladies, including yourself felt that he may have been 13 stepping, and that you were concerned the way the young man was "cut off", and that you are concerned for him (the old timer), and wanted to make sure this was not a cry for help. The ball is in his court then. It is honest and concise. If he does not handle that well, at least he is on notice that the ladies have him tagged, and it may lead him to some needed introspection. I think the fact that you called him on his bullying was also a wake up call, so again--BRAVO!!
Tom
-- Edited by turninggrey on Monday 13th of August 2012 09:29:31 AM
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"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
Well just thinking that it would be hard to bring up the inappropriate actions of a member who was also attending the meeting. But you could bring up the topic that several women have been approached by a long time member of this group and what is the group prepared to do about it, and look this schmuck right in the eyes. That would be interesting.
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Monday 13th of August 2012 10:02:49 AM
OMG!!!! I certainly wish there were some way we could all get together for coffee Now that would be interesting. I'm not sure what to say about the old timer who preys on female newcomers, I'm fairly new to this program myself. Taking it to the group as a whole makes sense, maybe get some of the other women who he has done the same thing to and go as a group. present as a unified front, so to speak. Then perhaps it wouldn't be so intimidating to do. If you have never been to a group conscience Tasha, you should try it. An experience you don't want to rob yourself of. I also wanted to say "You go girl !!!" Good for you for reaching out to another suffering alcoholic and letting him know you understand how he feels. I have been thinking alot about the difference between sympathy and empathy (topic for another thread, lol) and I think your actions demonstrate it beautifully. You reacted the way you did because you understand how this young man feels, and you are learning how to get out from under it. And you are learning to pass that on. And that, my friend, is a beautiful thing. I like what Vixen said too, pray for the old timer, it can't hurt. Peace
PS, Mr Ed was one of my favorite TV shows growing up.
-- Edited by nezyb on Monday 13th of August 2012 12:55:07 PM
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I asked God for all things that I may enjoy life. He gave me life so that I may enjoy all things.
Tanin "we seek progress not perfection". I think you're "gleening" a bit to much here. Sure, when yelled at before my first AA meeting, at age 16, I was feeling like a violent response may have been the solution. Your post is muddy at best and I'm sure that you didn't mean to misconstrue (giving you the benefit of the doubt to set a positive example for you ) that my undisclosed solution to the 13th stepper in question, was violent, as it certainly would not be. Interesting that you consider a verbal confrontation as "violent". Do you have an personal experiences that you'd like to share with us or would that violate your anonymity. It's what we do here, sharing Our experience, strength, and hope.
Dean, I don't think I said that I believe your solution to the 13th stepper was "violent." I referred to a "force, either verbal or physical" seemingly always being being an option for AAers.
What, btw, is "muddy" about my post? I covered about 3 or 4 points. Difficult to do with so few words.
Tanin - your points are valid, but way over most people's head in my opinion. I think you're looking for discussions about certain things in the wrong place - but I could be wrong. I personally, would hone in on certain people with whom would satisfy my deep desire for debate on these issues, who would understand absolutely that your wishes are to debate and in going in saying that, (hopefully), you could expect to offend no one and get the collaborated answers acceptable and satisfying to you. Personally, I'm acutely curious: What would you do if you get your answers?
Most likely you will need to find a way to do this in a more private way, but I understand that the only way you're going to find what you desire is by first coming to a discussion board such as this. Maybe find some people at meetings who you could invite to your home?
Maybe the approach less offensive would be to specifically ask if anyone would like to join such a debate setting, and in doing so, share something about yourself so people would feel comfortable in doing so. As of right now, even though I love a good debate, especially when everyone remembers it's just a debate no matter what is said, where people even drive home someone elses point in the end, only to find they've squelched their own - that kind of pure debate... I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it with you personally, because of the fact that you never share your ESH - even after being prompted several times. That is scarier to me than if you just asked me randomly out of the blue. I would sooner say yes while knowing you only a day, than now, after getting to know your style. And it only has to do with your style. Not you. Not your thoughts, or the topics you've brought up here. Do you see though - that I am only saying this out of some need still rooted in me to make sure everyone gets along? That probably isn't ideal either. Something I will need to think on.
I think you're the type of person who could take this at face value and not be offended. I am working toward that, but I think that in this selection of people - that isn't going to be prominent.
From the outside, it looks like you and Dean are trying to have a civil debate, but the emotions still shine through. So it's not okay. It's just the equivalent then, of two people beating the crap out of each other in the bar. It makes everyone else around, feel a little uncomfortable, unsure of their world, and it makes you look immature. When you see someone else is getting emotionally involved, even if you're not, the right thing to do would be to walk away - IMO
Please don't take any of this personally - I'm just testing the waters at deeper thinking myself. Thanks for letting me try it out on you.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
I however - am not looking for compliments on great recovery from my original post - I'm looking for answers on what the right thing to do truly was. What is the right thing to do with the man with 33 yrs of sobriety? How can he be helped? By simply ignoring him? How much should he get away with? Would it be appropriate to talk to his sponsor? Is that going behind his back? What about the "very little interaction with men" rule that I have for myself that I would then be breaking?
I'm sorry to bring this up here - I just haven't been able to get through to my sponsor lately.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
I wish I was brave enough to do that, but I'm afraid, and I just simply don't know enough to truly feel ready to help anyone directly... at least not something this deep rooted. I've JUST become brave enough to be the greeter at my home group! I'm not sure I can go from barely brave enough to shake peoples hands - to having a heart to heart with a very intimidating old timer. I don't know if it should be left up to me - what about seeing if his sponsor could speak to him about it?
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
Oh really? I don't understand what happens at a group conscience meeting. Time for me to learn about that. And I know he attends them... so if he's there, why would that be bad? Because it would be uncomfortable to bring up something about someone in the meeting, or is that forbidden? Or what? I'm sorry, I can ask my sponsor about it to when I talk to her next, or maybe google it?
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
In the meantime, I would pray for the man. I have never regretted saying a prayer for someone.
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I think there's an invisible principle of living...if we believe we're guided through every step of our lives, we are. Its a lovely sight, watching it work.
Well just thinking that it would be hard to bring up the inappropriate actions of a member who was also attending the meeting. But you could bring up the topic that several women have been approached by a long time member of this group and what is the group prepared to do about it, and look this schmuck right in the eyes. That would be interesting.
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Monday 13th of August 2012 10:02:49 AM
Dag-nabbit, ... ... ...
I was just getting to the end of this thread for the 1st time, when I discovered that Dean said exactly what I wanted to say ... ... ... go with what Dean suggested ...
Sometimes, you'll run across an 'old-timer' or two in a group that act and carry on like they possess the group, like it's their baby and they'll control all aspects of the meetings all the time ... they seem to be self-appointed leaders of the pack ... and they do not always consider others emotions before spewing out hateful sounding rhetoric ... or going after a 'new catch' so to speak ...
Like Dean, I very much dislike the old timers that zero in on 'new-comer' women that want nothing more than to introduce them to the 'meat' of the program ... 'in a manner of speaking' ... this only serves to satisfy the desires of the old guy and generally always destroys the 'new-comers' confidence in our program intent ...
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
I did get to talk to my sponsor about it today : ) She is thinking that being an example of good sobriety is best - and I never thought of it that way... that I could be an example to someone with so many yrs, having only months myself. So between that, and praying him, I feel my HP has seen me through yet another mountain that truly was only an ant hill : ) Thanks everyone for your input!
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
Some old timers are very wise. Others are just slow learners. The wise ones usually just say what worked for them. The slow learners claim to know what will work for others.
There are lots of reasons to drink, just no good reasons. If we ignore the reasons, they can seem pretty good in a weak moment.
The old timers are the back bone of AA the newcomers are the life blood. That said not all people with long periods of sobriety are old timers. There is another term for those its called dry. Huge difference between sober and dry. Some members forget what the BB tells us, they forget to work a program outside of going to a meeting and telling others how it should be done. There is a saying sober up a horse thief and you still have a horse thief. If you aren't working the program in all your affairs you may be dry not sober. These members if approached properly can be encouraged to look at their own program and just maybe realize they are not getting out of the program what they used to.
Tasha you did the right thing. When anyone anywhere reaches out for help I want the hand of AA always to be there and for that I am responsible. The old timer hitting on new women members would be good to have addressed. An old timer should know better than anyone that the new person shouldn't get involved in a relationship for a year - lol not his intention. My advice would be to have some other men from the group approach him about his behavior towards women. If he has a sponsor and is in contact with him the sponsor is probably aware of his defects.
33 years sober doesn't make someone a God. I was let down when I realized that too. More often than not, old tiimers do whave special wisdom and for that I am grateful. AA is one of the only places where we typically celebrate our elders and they are given esteemed positions of respect. Some could get carried away with that. Everywhere else in the US we mostly treat our elders like useless crap (sadly)
Also, some judging of others is instinctual and we judge them in order to protect ourselves. It would be ideal if we lived in a world where nobody meant to hurt us and there was no need to ever judge. It just gets back to progress and not perfection. I know I need to judge people less, but I also know that never doing it would make me inhuman.
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Some old timers are very wise. Others are just slow learners. The wise ones usually just say what worked for them. The slow learners claim to know what will work for others.
It's the usual philosophical choice: descriptive vs. directive.
It also applies to non-oldtimers, possibly more so.
AA has been struggling with the tension between the two approaches since they were writing the Big Book.
What always surprises me is how little AA knowledge and experience some people feel they need to pursue the directive approach.
Yes - I agree Tanin. Today at the noon meeting, there was a lady there for her first meeting ever, and I welcomed her personally afterward. I offered to take her to my home group tonight, and she did come. I was happy she was willing. But I found myself using the same directive approach with her as I did you earlier today and was disappointed in myself. But overall, I think she will keep coming back. She did agree to let me pick her up for another meeting. Thank God AA isn't all up to me, and there will be others who will be better versed at how to speak to people. I did my best tho.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
It's kind of like how I just KNOW I should not call Zach (my husband) when I'm just PISSED about something stupid like where did you leave the egg cartons this time!!!!!
I typically can't find my phone - search all over heck fire looking for it, the WHOLE time telling myself "natasha, just do not call until you're calm. Don't do it. Just don't. Wait two hours, then call. Don't keep looking for your phone." But then I find it - make the call - try to stay calm - but rarely do - regret it - have to make amends that I predicted - eh - LOL - I'm crazy, but I guess it's progress over drunk.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
In all the years I've been attending meetings, I can probably count on both hands the "old timers" that I actually listen intently to...they are the ones who speak of what worked for them. The others, insist they know what's best for you.
As far as 13th steppers, I have absolutely no tolerance for any kind of crap like that. I'm at a meeting to stay sober. New members might not really know what's going on sometimes, and mistake these creeps as someone who really, really cares about them and their sobriety. I usually speak to some of my long time guy friends, and have them talk to him and take care of the situation.
It's confusing when people literally ask for sponsors that "call them on their BS" and that they want someone who will be like a drill sargeant to them. The fact that people who are that directive exist out there may be a product of this. It does defy the pamphlet on sponsorship but I dunno...works for some folks I guess.
Nobody knows AA so well that they can call themselves a Guru. 2 different people can be working a good program and yet the programs don't look that much alike on the surface. Even studying the BB up down and sideways is not necessarily going to prepare you to say the right thing at the right time to the right person (assuming there is a "right way."). We just do the best we can and I think our respective HPs will aid us. If your intentions are good it's better to try and help others than not at all.
Trying to figure out if someone is being too directive versus descriptive is taking their inventory and that reflects poor knowledge of AA too. It's a waste of time to judge others and what you think they might or might not know about AA. If you have been sober even a day longer than the next person - you do have something to offer. AA is built on one alcoholic helping another. When you assume someone has less or no knowledge of AA, you are judging them and saying your knowledge is better. It discounts the potential for one alcholic to help another regardless of "knowledge" or time in the program. Some of my best lessons have come from folks straight out of rehab - Whatever. Even people I might not agree with are still my helpers often cuz at least they make me examine myself more. You don't need to win an AA BB trivia contest to help others. Wear your program like a loose garment. Just BE THE EXAMPLE if you have a problem with others. Sounds like what you did Natasha. Drunk Natasha wouldn't have even been in the place to help that other person. Hence, this is a miracle and it is progress. Examine your motives, but don't doubt yourself so much if you can help it.
-- Edited by pinkchip on Wednesday 15th of August 2012 09:14:45 AM
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
It's true Tanin - I am guilty of some of the things I try not to be. I do my best but fall short frequently. Like many folks, I can be full of contradictions but try to live recovery to my best each day. I honestly think you do that too and for that I'm grateful you are here on this board.
There are a million ways I step outside my program and need to be realed back in. The steps and the principles of AA are things I live by but also things that go against my first thought and action which is often an alcholic one. You could probably catch me in a million contradictions because like all of us, I am a sick alcholic who thinks one way (often incorrectly) and uses the program to try and do better. At any given time, you could be getting an alcoholic response/a recovery one, or one that is both or somewhere in the middle. I'm working on it. You actually are helping me here and I appreciate it.
In AA folks do tend to be more directive. In alanon I see they are much more descriptive. Sometimes I appreciate being called on my BS, sometimes I get angry and act like a baby. Sounds like typical alcoholic I guess. I think I have a ways to go. In fact I KNOW I have a ways to go.
I shared my opinion on it cuz you accused me of being overly directive in another post and said my way of helping others was ineffective. Point taken. It also kind of hurt to hear that as you might expect when you tell someone who has made their life purpose counseling and helping others (though I know AA is different than my job). Doesn't mean there wasn't some truth to it just like there is to my statements. Some of your comments are experienced by me as abrasive and overly confrontational and they also withhold ESH to the degree that nobody can tell if you have what they want because you don't divulge what you have. Either way - here's to your growth and mine lol!
-- Edited by pinkchip on Wednesday 15th of August 2012 11:50:09 AM
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
It's confusing when people literally ask for sponsors that "call them on their BS" and that they want someone who will be like a drill sargeant to them. The fact that people who are that directive exist out there may be a product of this. It does defy the pamphlet on sponsorship but I dunno...works for some folks I guess.
Nobody knows AA so well that they can call themselves a Guru. 2 different people can be working a good program and yet the programs don't look that much alike on the surface. Even studying the BB up down and sideways is not necessarily going to prepare you to say the right thing at the right time to the right person. We just do the best we can and I think our respective HPs will aid us. If your intentions are good it's better to try and help others than not at all.
Trying to figure out if someone is being too directive versus descriptive is taking their inventory and that reflects poor knowledge of AA too. We cannot change others and it's futile to try. Wear your program like a loose garment. Just BE THE EXAMPLE if you have a problem with others. Sounds like what you did Natasha. Drunk Natasha wouldn't have even been in the place to help that other person. Hence, this is a miracle and it is progress. Examine your motives, but don't doubt yourself so much if you can help it.
pinkchip wrote:
Also, some judging of others is instinctual and we judge them in order to protect ourselves. It would be ideal if we lived in a world where nobody meant to hurt us and there was no need to ever judge. It just gets back to progress and not perfection. I know I need to judge people less, but I also know that never doing it would make me inhuman.
P.S. - To newcomers - If this type of challenging/interchange can be done without ripping someone's head off or namecalling - In my experience it's been these type of interactions that help my emotional sobriety. Sorry if others see it as arguing.
Neither Tanin or I are going to drink over this. (I highly doubt)
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The discussion and analysis of issues that come up in AA, and this thread's content is but one example, has a long tradition (small t) in AA, going back to Bill and Bob and others reviewing and critiquing their judgments and messages--so as to be more consistent and effective with the drunks they talked to. Those pioneers of AA were concerned not only about the message but also the quality of the message.
In re-reading this thread, I am impressed by the almost unanimous taking of Mr. 33's inventory . Even though AA warns against do this. Even though we don't have but one account of the incident and background. How does this happen? And it should be noted, there are many folks with great sobriety who weighed in above. But Mr. 33 didn't have a chance in this thread. The trial and proposed treatments came ever so facilely.
So, I wonder; how does AA (say, as a group) manage to violate AA's suggestion against taking someone's inventory happen? So easily?
Then, there's the individual level of departing from AA's suggestion. But, that one is easier; individuals, all of us, are selfish and imperfect. Done.
I guess the conclusion could be that AA is, resultingly selfish and imperfect, since it is comprised of individuals.
This thread really didn't start out to be taking the inventory of Mr. 33--it just kind of evolved into that. But I have to still be concerned about one of the salient points of the whole thing: AA says it is not good to take another's inventory. But AA does tolerate taking the inventory of others.
So, and this is the important thing , it probably appears to newcomers as yet another do as I say, not as I do thang. And that, I think, affects the quality of the message from AA. AA declares itself to be different, to be a practioner of rigorous honesty. Do newcomers believe that? Probably, fro the ones who stay. How about the ones who come then leave?
Just one more point, from re-reading the thread again; we seem to have the idea that it is the "old-timers" who do the 13th stepping. I have no doubt that some do, but in my observation over some years it is mostly non-old-timers who do it.
Here's a thread I just reread that deals with the directive vs. descriptive approach to AA. Just brought it up on another thread. I knew we had discussed it before to good result.
An old timer tells and idiot...often times this old timer cannot tell the difference between the two. Glad there is a power greater than old timers and a fellowship who humbly adheres to program protocol.
An OldTimer tells an idiot to Sit Down And Shut Up... Nothing wrong with that. :)
You know not everyone comes into AA knowing what they should be doing. Just because someone is an "old timer" doesn't give them the right to treat anyone like that. It's responses like this that have caused me to cut way way back in the number of meetings I attend. I don't know if I've grown more sensitive, or I have less tolerance for mean spirited people, but no one needs this. I found in my early sobriety I came away each day learning something new that lifted me up. Going on ten years now, I wonder why I bother leaving my house and loving family some days.
The old timers (some, not all) who treat newcomers badly are simply power trippers. They gain status (in their own minds) by humbling and/or humiliating entrants to AA. The sad part is that the power trippers target people who are weak, broken and incapable of avoiding or warding off the power tripper. The newbie is prey. Easy prey.
It's kind of a hazing thing.
Many AA groups have a culture that tolerates such hazing. Not a good thing...
) that my undisclosed solution to the 13th stepper in question, was violent, as it certainly would not be. Interesting that you consider a verbal confrontation as "violent". Do you have an personal experiences that you'd like to share with us or would that violate your anonymity. It's what we do here, sharing Our experience, strength, and hope. 
