Recently, Frodo said, "...because how I'd need to break the law here to do it which would mess with the honesty part of the program..."
I have heard something else a few weeks back about the law and the honesty part of the program that I dismissed but Frodo has me curious. Do you think that following the law and the honesty part of the program are connected? How?
I don't speed when driving but if I did, if I was late for work and decided to go 75 mph instead of 65 to make it on time - what does this have to do with the honesty part of the program? I truly don't see it. This morning, waking up with the mother of all migraines, I accepted some painkillers that were less than what the doctor in the emergency room would have given me had I chosen to go to the emergency room instead. They were not prescribed to me though and hence, illegal - but I don't see how this affects the honesty part of the program. I know what I did, I accept full responsibility for my actions if there are any - I can't see any dishonesty here.
What about unjust laws? Was Rosa Parks being dishonest when she refused to give up her seat to a white woman and move to the back of the bus? Was I when I was arrested for civil disobedience blocking the road when the military was testing nuclear weapons on my peoples ancestral lands? What's the connection between law abiding and honesty?
I guess what I meant was that I'd have to move in grey areas to obtain and use it. If I was pulled over randomly on the way home from scoring a bag and a cop asked me if I had anything in the car he should know about then what do I say? I can tell the truth and get screwed or lie and do my head in. Also to smoke it I'd need to make excuses to go for a walk, or spray some air freshener around, or stuff like that. Do I say I have hayfever if someone asks if my eyes are red?
These aren't places I want to go. That's the old me. That's the one that drove home back roads to avoid a breath test, or who only bought cans because the glass would make too much noise when it was bin day, or who would make excuses about being sick when I was really too hungover or drunk to do whatever it was I was s'posed to be doing. In this case I see it a very, very slippery slope. The other stuff like speeding - well, you pay the fine and don't bitch about it. The civil disobedience thing is a whole different kettle of fish, and I guess that in those cases you are answering to a higher honesty of doing the right thing.
It's not obeying the law that is the honest bit because law, justice and honesty only co-exist coincidentally at the best of times, but for me it is about being honest in my motives, and not trying to take the easier and selfish way by first deceiving others and then by perhaps fatally beginning to deceive myself.
*nods* Good explanation Frodo, thank you. I'm still interested in what others have to say but I completely understand where you are coming from.
I do lie on occasion but am a stickler for being honest with myself. I agree that it is a slippery slope though and ones motives must be checked diligently. My wife, for instance, just filled out a job application that asked her if she has ever been convicted of a felony. In this state, they can only ask about the last ten years legally and in most states it's a seven year max. She has a twenty-five year old felony conviction and personally, I would have no problem with her answering 'no' to that question. I mean, she can work her program any way she wants but I'm just saying that if it were me - I'd have no problem answering 'no'.
For me, ... ... ... There are just SOME things that boil down to what's right or what's wrong for me ... ... ... (what's wrong for me to do, may be okay for someone else)
For instance, if I have a friend from a different culture ... that believes with all his heart that drinking a Coca Cola is a sin for him, then to do so, goes against what he stands for ... and for him to drink that product shows he's a man of poor convictions and full of dishonesty to himself ... BUT for me to drink that Coca Cola is perfectly okay ... no sin, no worries on degrading myself or my beliefs ... Now where it is the law of the land??? ... then we have to go to the old saying ... when in Rome do as the Romans ... or something like that, obey the 'Law of the Land' anyway ...
So what works for me honesty wise, may not work for you ... ... ... in all cases or situations, is all I'm saying ... 'different strokes for different folks' ...
Pappy
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Like it says in the book, I typically try to look at motives....we ask that our thinking be divorced of dishonest, selfish and self seeking motives. If I stay true to my values, whatever they may be, I avoid the self loathing and inner conflict that will remove me from the spirit.
4th and 5th step, identify and be rid of character defects. Being true and honest to our values =being a person of character.
11th step, countinuing personal inventory= being openmined and continuing to search for the truth in my opinions, beliefs and actions. Is it true or false?
Our government laws allow for a lot of actions that may be of poor character and If I drove the speed limit here in ATL, I would get run over. If I listed all the drugs I ever took on a job application I would never get hired and I don't report to my HOA every time I change my landscaping
Where I got sober they still suggested using the Four Absolutes and a yardstick to measure and improve our progress. I like to read back through them periodically, I will copy and paste the Honesty section below for those interested.
Honesty
Over and over we must ask ourselves, "Is it true or is it false?" For honesty is the eternal search for truth. It is by far the most difficult of the four Absolutes, for anyone, but especially for us in this fellowship. The problem drinker develops genuine artistry in deceit. Too many (and we plead guilty) simply turn over a new leaf and relax. That is wrong. The real virtue in honesty lies in the persistent dedicated striving for it. There is no relaxed twilight zone, it's either full speed ahead constantly or it's not honesty we seek. And the unrelenting pursuit of truth will set you free, even if you don't quite catch up to it. We need not choose or pursue falsity. All we need is to relax our pursuit of truth, and falsity will find us.
The search for truth is the noblest expression of the soul. Let a human throw the engines of his soul into the doing or making of something good, and the instinct of workmanship alone will take care of his honesty. The noblest pleasure we can have is to find a great new truth and discard old prejudice. When not actively sought, truth seldom comes to light, but falsehood does. Truth is life and falsity is spiritual death. It's an everlasting, unrelenting instinct for truth that counts. Honesty is not a policy. It has to be a constant conscious state of mind.
Accuracy is close to being the twin brother of honesty, but inaccuracy and exaggeration are at least "kissing cousins" of dishonesty. We may bring ourselves to believe almost anything by rationalization, (another of our fine arts), and so it's well to begin and end our inquiry with the question, "Is it true?" Any man who loves to search for truth is precious to any fellowship or society. Any intended violation of honesty stabs the health of not only the doer but the whole fellowship. On the other hand if we are honest to the limit of our ability, the basic appetite for truth in others, which may be dormant but not dead, will rise majestically to join us. Like sobriety, it's the power of example that does the job.
It is much simpler to appear honest, than to be honest. We must strive to be in reality what we appear to be. It is easier to be honest with others than with ourselves. Our searching self-inventories help because the man who knows himself is at least on the doorstep of honesty. When we try to enhance our stature in the eyes of others, dishonesty is there in the shadows. When falsehood even creeps in, we are getting back on the merry-go-round because falsehoods not only disagree with truth, they quarrel with each other. Remember?
It is one thing to devoutly wish the truth may be on your side, and it is quite another to wish sincerely to be on the side of truth. Honesty would seem to be the toughest of our four absolutes and at the same time, the most exciting challenge. Our sobriety is a gift, but honesty is a grace that we must earn and constantly fight to protect and enlarge."Is it true or false?". Let us make that a ceaseless question that we try to answer with all the sober strength and intelligence we have.
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
