You know Dean?, ... ... ... You had an excellent post that got covered up in the agnostic/atheist thread ... I just want to get out a short view of mine and do so out side that particular thread ... You posted:
You know Pappy, that most people's issues with a "Higher Power" probably originate from authority figure issues. Unfortunately these same issues make those people (formally me) reluctant to follow/take directions etc... There are also folks that are pissed at "God" (Agnostics) for, presumably, taking away something they loved or letting it die. My Mother is pissed at "God" for my older brother being born mentally challenged and other things (her dad dying, divorce...). God is an easy person to blame, he doesn't talk back (usually lol) and not too many people stick up for him. I mean, when's the last time you saw someone yell Gdamnit and another person runs up, punches them out and says "how dare you talk about my God that way!". Ok, so I'm digressing a bit here. My point is, that if we can put away our reservations about obtaining a higher power, to work the steps properly and earnestly, amazing things will happen, most importantly a "Spiritual Awakening". Even a simple explanation of that is, as I sit here typing, I'm looking out of a picture window of my backyard view of a yacht basin, hoping to see a porpoise, manatee, or one of a dozen water birds that visit my dock/backyard. If I'm up in the mountains, I' hiking around as much as possible looking at the views, and hoping to see wildlife. At night I'm star gazing with a clear view of thousands of stars and the north to south swatch of the milkyway. Also still amazed at hundreds of fireflies (or lightening bugs) everywhere. All of this outer stimuli (reality) keeps me out of my head instead of where those negative voices live (where my disease lives). Those voices only have one message "What's in it for ME?".
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Tuesday 3rd of July 2012 10:22:33 AM
Great insight here ... ... ... Coming back to AA this last time, I realized I was agnostic ... I finally realized I blamed God for my 1st born son being mentally retarded(challenged) ... I blamed my alcoholism on my 1st son ... and many other things I blamed on God ... I had tried the Christian way before getting consumed by alcoholism and it didn't seem to work for me ... I realize now that God wasn't doing things the way I thought they ought to be done ... This program has taught me a different way of thinking and therefore I now accept God's ways and they seem to always turn out for the best for me now ...
My wife, however, has reverted to blaming God these day due to the fact she feels she's being punished for being a good loving and caring mother/wife ... This all started when our youngest son was in an accident and became quadriplegic ... now we're spending our (her) retirement on him ... She said she was so hopeful for our lives as I approached my 1st year sober, that she thought, finally, a normal fulfilling life for us ... then the accident occurred ...
Dean, I too, now see God in all living things ... like the pic above, absolutely wonderful ... and the stars at night, the different animals in the mountains, etc. ... AND if I hear the G.D. word said in a meeting or outside a meeting, I DO make it a point that I am offended by that ... I still use a few 'curse' words now and then myself, though not so often anymore and certainly not the G.D. word ...
Thanks for your post Dean, you certainly struck a cord in me with it ...
Pappy
-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Thursday 5th of July 2012 10:18:47 AM
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
It's ironic that you would have revived this particular post out of that particular thread. I was discussing Dean's post with my wife on the long drive home today from town and just walked in the door to find this. I was telling her that I really didn't know the best way to discuss this - whether to pm Dean directly or to post a follow-up thread in which I addressed it more publically. Serendipity and all, I guess I'll do it here.
I've posted recently on my atheism and how it has impacted my AA involvement and I really don't want to beat a dead horse but despite my years in the program and the many things I've learned along the way - I haven't learned how to work through things very well with others. I'm fortunate in that I don't get lonely and so, if I find that I am uncomfortable because the people where I am working are rude and inconsiderate, I simply work elsewhere. If I don't like my neighbors loud music, I move. If I dislike the open hostility toward atheists in meetings and my sobriety isn't in jeopardy if I don't go to meetings - I'll simply stop going. This has worked well for me for many years but it doesn't get me much practice working things out and so forgive me if I practice it with less grace than one might hope for.
You know Pappy, that most people's issues with a "Higher Power" probably originate from authority figure issues. Unfortunately these same issues make those people (formally me) reluctant to follow/take directions etc... There are also folks that are pissed at "God" (Agnostics) for, presumably, taking away something they loved or letting it die.
I suspect that if I suggested (and I am not) that most Christians attachment to a "God" probably originate from "fill in the blank" issues.... that my post would be deleted immediately. I am Buddhist and hence, by definition, atheist. There are 500 million Buddhists in the world even by low estimates and 670 million atheists meaning that approximately 75% of the worlds atheists are Buddhist. If most atheists have authority figure issues, then you are saying that even if all the non-Buddhist atheists have issues, then at least a third of us Buddhists are only Buddhist because we have issues with authority figures. I can't imagine that's what you were trying to say - but I hear things like this all the time...and it's hurtful.
Yes, excellent reading! What a beautiful way to start my day! Thank you for each posts. So happy I found MIP. Heck, I even see God in the two butterflies here...'Miracle' and 'Progress', no way would I click on them to make them disappear. :)
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~Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will~
I suspect that if I suggested (and I am not) that most Christians attachment to a "God" probably originate from "fill in the blank" issues.... that my post would be deleted immediately. I am Buddhist and hence, by definition, atheist. There are 500 million Buddhists in the world even by low estimates and 670 million atheists meaning that approximately 75% of the worlds atheists are Buddhist. If most atheists have authority figure issues, then you are saying that even if all the non-Buddhist atheists have issues, then at least a third of us Buddhists are only Buddhist because we have issues with authority figures. I can't imagine that's what you were trying to say - but I hear things like this all the time...and it's hurtful
Agreed. Thanks angell you expressed that better than I could
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sober: showing no excessive or extreme qualities of fancy, emotion, or prejudice
Good thread for me and not a great one and that's just me. I have a dear friend in recovery here on the Big Island who introduces herself into the group before speaking..."Hi, my name is Aloha and my only problem is me and my only solution is God". She has never defined God as she underestand God on is sooo convincing that her solution to her pride, ego and self centeredness is a power greater than herself she calls God. Meeting her was good fortune...listening to her introduction was and still is mind opening and has greatly supported my own growth and relationship with a power greater than my own self determination. I use to live in my brain and then in recovery realized that I had probably disabled it with all of the alcohol I infused it with. I was woken up by the last word of the 2nd step when I finally calmed down and was able to go thru them slowly and understand what it was like, what happened and how it had to be for recovery. I don't conceptualize anything real well with my brain. An elder sponsor taught me to consider the question "Could I be wrong" when I thought I had brought order to my understanding. He kicked the apple crate from under my feet just before I was going to demand my corner of the square to tell the populace how it was and yes how it was regarding "higher powers". I was a theology student in school and 15 years later tossed everything I learned in my classes. I didn't know and I didn't know I didn't know. How things evolved for me to where I am today...a native Hawaiian born into the culture which is mostly all spiritual was that I did a geneology of myself and a power greater than myself going back to the age of 11 when my brain and powers of reason were still in its original box. I had sequestered myself in a spiritual place and condition because I needed help badly. My family was ripped to shreads because of the disease (I didn't know that then) and life in my family was threatening. I ran away from home again and went to a place where only the spirits of all that was around me were and I asked for help into the atmosphere not calling upon anyone person or thing by name or in particular. It was an action outside of the religion I was raised in and a behavior we never practiced. The consequence of that event has led to the spiritual, mental, emotional and physical condition of my life to day...alcohol free and sober and able at times to practice sanity...(a continuous and orderly process of thought).
I have stood next to and holding the hand of a Black Foot native American Indian and had he close the meeting with his conversation to his creator. What he said and how he said it convinced me that there was a Higher Power greater than my own mind and thoughts and imagination that would turn my life around if I could and would only trust it...not name it...trust it. That is what happened for me and the strength of it grows daily. At times I have had to have unrequested proof of this Higher Power...unrequested and unexplained and witnessed by others so that my nature of doubt would diminish...I'm a doubter and I need to be awakened and reminded at times.
I heard a joke at a meeting once about a guy leaving a meeting to go take a pee. The meeting was at a little sea side church and the boundary was a cliff. He stepped off to far and fell and while falling reached for anything that would stop his fall. He caught a branch which was jutting out of the cliff wall and while hanging there over certain death if he fell he called out for a Higher Power. "If there be a power greater than myself please help me now." A voice came to him telling him that he was in good hands and that he would certainly be lifted back to firm grown if he would only trust and let go of the branch. The fellow assured himself that the Higher Power was real and then asked..."Is there another Higher Power up there!!".
Often times when you're looking you will find that your HP isn't outside of yourself but inside. Check it out. (((hugs)))
