justadrunk wrote:I will force myself to not give in to all my crazy thoughts.
That right there is actually the crux of Sobriety for me
We have rich inner lives, that for me anyway, can be based wholly on delusion, one exercise I have my sponsee's do, (and I do myself) is draw two large circles that overlap, in one I put the objective evidence (you haven't discussed any of this with your parent in laws) and in the other I put all my thoughts that I am having about the situation.
where the circles overlap I put anything that appears in both circles, anything that is in "my" circle that doesn't end up in the overlap is "delusion"
Objective: what has actually happened in the real world: They haven't spoken to you about this (for any number of reasons, they could be waiting for you to bring it up, they could be respecting your boundary, the truth is you don't know why they haven't brought this up, and you won't until you have the conversation)
Subjective: or what takes place in my mind: I hid in shame, Now I'm just pissed!, They pretend it's not there. I get thoughts like "I'll show you, I'll just wait until you get some disease, and then completely not talk to you, support you, I'll just turn my back on you, and pretend you don't exist." I now don't want to see them because I'm angry with them, people I thought loved me (should approach the subject to me, not me to them)
OK, so where is the overlap?
There isn't any. None. everything in the "subjective" circle (your thoughts) is quite literally delusion, or "make believe"
You haven't discussed this with them
then look at the "subjective", or in other words, your thoughts, it's nothing but "stories", stories with no bearing in reality....none...zero, zip, nada, zilch
Your mind isn't necessarily your friend
All you really know is you haven't discussed this with them yet, you have NO idea what they are thinking, and not only thaqt, but what other people think of us is none of our business. A lot of people don't understand the "disease" of alcoholism, but everyone knows one.
There was a quote I liked by Jack Kornfield, "My parents hated the fact I was a buddhist, but loved me when I was being a Buddha"
They may not understand what Sobriety is, but they will love the "Sober" you, so why not put this resentment on your fourth step list under "resentments" and go from there, when you get to step 9 you can make your amends, which is "fixing what's broken", which could be a living amends, like being a great daughter in law and great mother to their grandkids, it will all work out, the only problems you have are literally imaginary, unless you act on this imagination of yours and force a confrontation, then you will have a mess to clean up.
The steps work when you work them.
-- Edited by LinBabaAgo-go on Saturday 26th of May 2012 01:24:39 PM
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Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
My first impression and thoughts were that You were acting like a typical alcoholic, 4 years old and wanting everything your way ... Then at the same time I thought you were simply allowing your mind to make a 'big' deal out of something that may be so very simple to explain, but you had no facts to work with ...
And I loved what Ruhig and LinBaba had to say ... I felt they were/are right on the mark ... Since they said what I would had tried to say, I'll bow out of this one for now ...
Thanks for the post and God Bless, Pappy
-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Saturday 26th of May 2012 01:40:00 PM
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
justadrunk wrote:I will force myself to not give in to all my crazy thoughts.
Linbaba wrote:
That right there is actually the crux of Sobriety for me
We have rich inner lives, that for me anyway, can be based wholly on delusion, one exercise I have my sponsee's do, (and I do myself) is draw two large circles that overlap, in one I put the objective evidence (you haven't discussed any of this with your parent in laws) and in the other I put all my thoughts that I am having about the situation.
where the circles overlap I put anything that appears in both circles, anything that is in "my" circle that doesn't end up in the overlap is "delusion"
^^^^^ that's pretty awesome right there. My take on it is how I try and victimize myself, which of course requires someone to (involuntarily and usually unknowingly) play the part a villain, which I of course will assign. All of this is, is carefully orchestrated so that I can derive pity from others and myself. After all, pity is the next best thing to approval. My standard OP, if I'm trying to run my life, instead of HP, is to look for opportunities daily to be a hero. Of course Hero is not always available, so I'll settle for Savior. If that's not happening there is always Martyr and last but certainly not least is Victim. lol. So the next time you ask your sponsor if you "should do something, or not" and they ask you to examine your "Motives", do the Hero, Savior, Martyr, Victim check.
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Saturday 26th of May 2012 03:28:37 PM
I spoke with sponsor in length yesterday about my husbands family avoiding me, and my avoiding them.
First I hid in shame. Today, I'm not ashamed of having a disease anymore.
Now I'm just pissed! They have yet to say a word to me! They pretend it's not there. I get thoughts like "I'll show you, I'll just wait until you get some disease, and then completely not talk to you, support you, I'll just turn my back on you, and pretend you don't exist."
But I don't want to be that person either. And I don't hope they get sick.
I now don't want to see them because I'm angry with them. My sponsor said "well what does Natasha expect them to do, what would make her happy?" I didn't even really know. I did not have a close relationship with his siblings to begin with, but I was close to his parents. It feels strange that people I thought loved me, would not at least say something in support.
I'm going to pray for them, and about it, but that doesn't mean I'm ready to be around them. I will force myself to be nice, and try my best not give in to all my crazy thoughts.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
StPeteDean wrote:My take on it is how I try and victimize myself, which of course requires someone to (involuntarily and usually unknowingly) play the part a villain, which I of course will assign. All of this is, is carefully orchestrated so that I can derive pity from others and myself. After all, pity is the next best thing to approval. My standard OP, if I'm trying to run my life, instead of HP, is to look for opportunities daily to be a hero. Of course Hero is not always available, so I'll settle for Savior. If that's not happening there is always Martyr and last but certainly not least is Victim. lol. So the next time you ask your sponsor if you "should do something, or not" and they ask you to examine your "Motives", do the Hero, Savior, Martyr, Victim check.
There it is right there
Tasha, you write: Linabob - I can not help but think what I think.
You actually -can- help what you think, that is the -crux- of sobriety, literally, is remapping what and how you think, but we -can't- change how we think by willpower, -we have to work the steps-
We aren't responsible for our first thought, but we ARE responsible for our subsequent thought process
My sponsor told me a story about a man who goes to confession and tells his priest he was having erotic thoughts, the priests asks, "Are you entertaining them?"
That's the "Sin" (Sin is an archery term that means "missed the bullseye") is -entertaining- the thoughts, -not- having them, learning how to tell our mind is telling us stories, it takes -all- the steps to remap that thinking, -including- step 11, in which we learn how to meditate, when we learn to meditate we learn how to let thoughts just "go by"
All day I sit and watch insanity go by inside my head like the NY stock exchange, and I only get in trouble or suffer if I grab a thought as it goes by and "make it mine", believe it and the story it's telling me.
Our minds aren't our friends, they lie all day every day, until we learn that, as long as we believe the stories our mind tell us, there is little hope of balance and happiness, but until we work the steps we can't see how truly deluded we are
We -ALL- have crazy thoughts, being sober just means learning how to not listen to the voices in our head
Try the exercise, literally, we can't "think" ourselves better, but we can take action, the saying is we can't think ourselves into acting better, but we can act ourselves into thinking better
Put the two circles, in one -JUST- objective, objective is "they call him at work" -subjective- is "to avoid talking to me"
see where the overlaps are, there literally won't be any
Dean is right, living well is the best revenge, but Dean is -also- right about us running around victimizing ourselves, the thing is we literally -don't- see it, are -incapable- of seeing it -until- we work the steps, and there it is looking at us in our own handwriting...pages of it...the a-ha moment that results from that is the beginning of the spiritual awakening
The steps work if you work them, but until then try not to listen to your thoughts, they aren't helping, they are trying to make you so crazy you drink
-- Edited by LinBabaAgo-go on Saturday 26th of May 2012 07:19:06 PM
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Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
I've been following you on this saga. And I'm sincerely curious. Is it that they won't commend you on getting sober or is it that they are not treating you like a normal human being? Cause the first one makes me think we get sober for ourselves, it's a personal accomplishment. The second makes me think alcoholism isn't contagious, your not going to give it to them like the common cold.
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sober: showing no excessive or extreme qualities of fancy, emotion, or prejudice
As an alcoholic, i've been known to pole vault over mouse turds.... and still do occasionally. we alkies have very active senses of right and wrong and sometimes i still think the world revolves around me. we sometimes promote our new life out loud when actually living sober is a spiritual, private matter. i have to keep doing the next right thing and maybe someone will notice it and maybe not. sometimes loved ones are not ready to say anything just becasue it might just jinx the relief they feel at seeing their daughter not under the influence. as you see, i can speculate as good as the next guy.... ;) ... so, just be the sober you and work on the spiritual you. that is when everything else falls into place, without using the hammer of truth and acknowledgement.
You helped each one of us to live in the moment and do the thing we are here for to start with ... it's called 'helping those who still suffer' ... SO, thank you, for helping me to stay sober today ... You helped me to keep the principles of our program in the front of my mind and I didn't even think of needing or wanting a drink today ...
God Bless you, Pappy
-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Saturday 26th of May 2012 11:02:44 PM
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
I don't expect anyone to do anything different at all. I guess I'm expecting too much. Things are different now.
After facing 1/2 the family today, I finally realized that "nothing" is a huge step up from being yelled at or shown hatred.
It's not easy to swallow though. In my perfect world, I guess they would have sent me an email or something if they were embarrassed and feeling awkward, just saying, hey... this sucks, but we're here for you.
It would have been too much in my opinion to do anything more than that - just as awkward, although it would have alleviated the stress I feel about it. To say, "hey you suck you f'n drunk" or something mean, would have at least let me know where they stand, and that would also alleviate the stress.
So actually, it's the nothing that is hard. I'm sure they put very little thought into it, and these months have gone by without them really noticing. But for me, well obviously, it's quite the opposite. I feel okay with people not liking me, but when it's your family, it's different. I don't really feel like any of the things on Deans check list, if I look at it honestly. I mostly just want this all to go away. Is that one of those things, and I'm not seeing it?
I keep thinking, that If I keep searching for answers, and keep writing about it, a solution will appear, or I'll at least feel better venting it. But so far, it hasn't worked.
Linabob - I can not help but think what I think. When they start calling Zach at work to avoid talking to me, I just can't help it.
Dean, I have taken some time to think deeply on your post, and I do not feel honestly that I am trying to do anything but set an example of a good mother, with good relations in the family. However, I do feel very sad and have cried and cried over this. Not so anyone feels sorry for me though. I know getting sober is for me, and for my children.
JJ, no one ever saw me drink even a sip of alcohol.
Pappy, am I acting selfish - I know I am, I wish I didn't care what other people thought of me. But I can't honestly say that about my family members. I want my kids to see an ideal family relationship, and I'm failing them.
So all that's left is the elephant in the room. Somehow, I want him to squeeze through the mouse hole and disappear. I don't know how to make him fit.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
Hey Tasha, ... Try to not beat yourself up too much over this particular issue ... 'Serenity Prayer' being said many times during this period may help ...
As we become 'spiritually' fit, or, if you will, spiritually healthy, these type issues simply disappear ... when we live in the solution, things just work out like they're supposed to ...
A lot has already been shared with you here, and I'm not sure I can put things any differently so that the answers you're looking for will come to you ... I can only say that most of us have had the same problems ... I found that when I 'rented space' in my head for other people, family or otherwise, I did nothing more than give THEM control of my thinking ... When I finally figured out that I could very simply stop renting them time in my thoughts, I got better ... I asked God to take our relationship and let it become what He wants it to be and that I be able to accept His answers ...
SO, ... early in my recovery, I found the BB absolutely correct when it says that we should strive daily to improve our conscious contact with God ... I can't, He can ... and He did for me ... So by His grace, I now put my faith in Him, not me ... and now, today, I know peace, happiness, and serenity of the kind I never knew possible ... Please don't try to rush things, in time, more will be revealed ...
Love Ya and God Bless, Pappy
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
TIME = This I Must Earn. Tasha, there will be a big difference between how you feel about your sobriety in another several months versus right now. 2 months of consecutive sobriety is not long enough to heal wreckage of the past. Perhaps looking at your need to "make nice" so fast would help. I suspect some of your people pleasing traits and shame issues could be part of your steps 4, 5, 6, and 7. It doesn't matter what they think that much but perhaps they are tentative and don't know what to do. After you have a few more months of sobriety (or maybe even sooner), you will start talking about the program without meaning to because those will become the values you live by (ideally speaking). My experience with my family has been that, they did leave me getting sober largely to me - They did not whoop and holler or congratulate me when I got my year medallion, 2 years, 3 years. What they have congratulated me on now is how much more mature and different I am. They see a much healthier version of me and they say they are proud of the directons I am taking my life.
In sum, the literature states that over time in recovery, what was once our weakness, becomes our asset. Eventually, you will be the one with the stable HP, the one that helps others, the one plugged in to a network of helpful people. You wont be some shaky newcomer getting over the embarassment of having this disease. That will take time to happen for you and it will take ongoing work. I do believe that when you forgive yourself for having had this disease - you will also not be so hurt by what you perceive is judgment from others.
I generally announce that I don't drink and am in recovery for quite some time noww because it's part of the 12th step for me and it's something I am proud of, not ashamed of. If someone sees my being in recovery as a weakness....they can suck it. You will get there in time too.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Hey Tasha, the heck with those people. Obviously they just don't know what to do besides hide out and pretend. This stuff will sort itself out all by itself. Give it some time and don't worry about it. Just turn your focus up on your sobriety, you and your immediate family. The rest will come around. I can tell that when my sobriety began, so did my final separation which lead to divorce. My inlaws, especially the x-Mother in law said some not too nice things to me. She said "you're a hopeless drunk who will never get sober". My wife began seeing someone the day after we separated. I had real reasons to be unhappy. I confided in my Mother, who was 14 years sober at that time. She said "Living well is the best revenge". I made that my Mantra and succeeded 10 fold. About 13 years ago, when my son was packing up to come and live with me, my x-mother in law laid a number of compliments and an apology on me. Honestly, I had quit waiting for that a long time ago, but it took her 10 years. The X made a few amends herself.
I spoke with sponsor in length yesterday about my husbands family avoiding me, and my avoiding them.
First I hid in shame. Today, I'm not ashamed of having a disease anymore.
Now I'm just pissed! They have yet to say a word to me!
I am not well versed in the history but from this little bit above it seems to me that it breaks down to:
1. I was not ready and they were not ready. I felt shame.
2. I am ready and they remain not ready. I feel anger.
It seems, from this outside observer of a moment in time, that their lack of readiness wasn't so much of a problem when their lack of readiness coincided with your timeline of readiness. That they have not moved beyond this lack of readiness when you did appears to be creating the 'problem'.
My own life was characterized by me being treated like the youngest sibling in a large family. As the baby, I got all the attention. My siblings were held back from doing things cause they had to take me along. Mom and dad scheduled their life around my needs. Uncles, aunts and cousins watched out for me. Grandparents doted on me unabashedly.
Then a new baby came along long after anyone expected.
Suddenly I had to make allowances for the new addition - the new weakest member of the family. I didn't always get the attention I wanted because the baby demanded attention, etc.
I didn't deserve all the attention, time and resources that were bestowed upon me when I was drinking. People deserved better than I was giving them but in my disease I was unable to give them better. As we recover, we cease to become the sickest person in our circle.
I have found that how I relate to the new sickest person in my circle says alot about how I have accepted and forgiven myself for my own shortcomings while I was in active alcoholism. It just may be that your anger comes from your view of their behavior from a healthier vantage point. If so, that you have reached this new vantage point is a reason to be grateful and celebrate... while you're being pissed of course. :)
Anywho, as I said, I just got a small snapshot of what is going on and if I have read the situation wrong, please accept my apologies.
I must admit, this has been a bottle of booze in my back pocket for too long... that I just wanted to rip out, and could not. I did not want it there, and it was there... and I kept yanking and yanking, but it wouldn't come loose.
Thanks for kicking me in the ass. I think you've smashed it. And I think it also moved me a step forward. I don't feel quite so STUCK in the mud.
I am so lucky to have you. I needed each response... I really did.
It's so embarrassing to puke out all this whiny crap, but I just have to if I want to stay sober. AND I DO WANT TO STAY SOBER!
I thank you for the time you've taken to help me.
That sounds so weak - compared to how thankful I am, not sure what else to say without sounding like a weirdo though.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
Agree with Pappy, we all do this stuff or we at least think it. No mater how long we've been sober. Like Linbaba said, the thoughts keep coming and, and as long as the "La La La La" is louder, we don't act on them. Before we ever picked up a drink, we got stuck, emotionally, at some point. Emotional sobriety (or emotional maturity) is what sobriety is about. The "putting the plug in the jug" is just the price of admission. Tasha, you're right were you're supposed to be, walking through fears, and working on issues, so that you don't have to drink. All of this stuff that your brain is "puking up" is really just your disease trying to get you bent out of shaped, so that you'll drink. Keep up the good work, we're definitely not picking on you.
Tasha - I can literally go back over the posts I wrote here at 2 months sober. Growth is painful. I wrote a lot about "burning resentments" and the relationship problems I was having. I was slowly changing the person I was and all my relationships slowly changed too. It was dramatic and there is NO WAY you could top how whiney of a newcomer I was. I was "king whiney." It was just something I needed to go through. You are doing great.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
My standard OP, if I'm trying to run my life, instead of HP, is to look for opportunities daily to be a hero. Of course Hero is not always available, so I'll settle for Savior. If that's not happening there is always Martyr and last but certainly not least is Victim. lol. So the next time you ask your sponsor if you "should do something, or not" and they ask you to examine your "Motives", do the Hero, Savior, Martyr, Victim check. 
Before we ever picked up a drink, we got stuck, emotionally, at some point. Emotional sobriety (or emotional maturity) is what sobriety is about. The "putting the plug in the jug" is just the price of admission. Tasha, you're right were you're supposed to be, walking through fears, and working on issues, so that you don't have to drink. All of this stuff that your brain is "puking up" is really just your disease trying to get you bent out of shaped, so that you'll drink. Keep up the good work, we're definitely not picking on you. 