Well, as harmless as it may appear, you're going to get a lot of shit for it, you know this, and you're already feeling uncomfortable about it, and that will take away from your main focus. I wasted a lot of precious recovery time worrying on this very thing. Instead of writing about this to us right now, you could be reading the big book, working on your steps etc. It's already taking away from your recovery.
Take some time to think of the big picture too... some people who are new, unlike you, might fall for some predator because they think it's okay to have a sponsor or temp. sponsor of the opposite sex... after seeing you doing it. It's a selfish program yes, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't think of others... in my new-found opinion ; )
Best wishes no matter what Tips.
-- Edited by justadrunk on Friday 18th of May 2012 04:57:29 PM
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
I have a feeling I'm going to get crapped on about this but here goes. My temporary sponsor is a girl...an attractive girl. I shared at a meeting, explained that I was just "coming back" and at the break she asked me if I needed some help getting started, going through the big book, etc. I said yes, she was the only person who reached out to me and I need help. I'd be foolish not to accept. Her motives seem completely sincere and I know that mine are. I'm happily married and not interested in anything of a romantic nature with anyone other than my wife. I even asked my wife if she was okay with it and she said "of course". Aside from all my issues infidelity has never been one of them. So what's the big deal? Why is it wrong? I mean I don't even know if it's accurate to refer to her as my temporary sponsor. It's never been stated...she's just a solid aa person with some good sobriety who is offering help. Am I missing something?
Anyhoo, I guess some are sicker than others and are incapable of interacting with a member of the opposite gender without turning into horny out of control monkeys. To bad for them. Fortunately for me I got that out of my system when I was in highschool.
The only reason I feel uncomfortable about it at all is because of the opinions of some. And that's all they are is opinions. Nowhere in the big book or any of the orignial AA literature does it say anything about men only helping men and women only helping women. If fact it says quite teh opposite actually. It's just a psudo-rule made up by people who think they know better than the orignal AA founders. Unfortunately for newcomers the rooms are full of thes eblowhards with their bumper sticker catch phrases, unhelpful opinions and negative attitudes.
It's like the "pink cloud" bullshit that some jerkoff oldtimers bust newbs balls about. They just cant stand it of a newcomer is a shuddering shivering mess so when they see them happy they but out this negative "oh you're just in th epink cloud phase, that'll change" nonsense. I swear to god the next old timer that says that to me is going to be eating through a tube for a few months.
TM, I'm glad that you found a sponsor, temporary or otherwise. I think that the key is to take suggestions and not be manipulative. You're making good progress!
I HATED the comments like my very own above, only a month ago when I was fishing for some support out there about my temp. sponsor being a guy. And I wasn't even brave enough to pick a good looking guy, I picked a guy that was like 95, just to keep people off my back, but it didn't work.
On another note, I attend meetings every day with 98% men. That just happens to be the ratio around here, and I can't change that. The friends I've made in AA are mostly men because of this. No one says boo about that, so maybe you'd be best off calling her your friend instead of your sponsor.
Again, you know I'm new so... there's a lot I don't know.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
All I can say is that I pray that 'TOTAL HONESTY' is what is being shared here ...
Regardless if I felt I was safe from an emotional attachment made possible through an opposite sex sponsor, I'm not sure I would be willing to risk the other person not becoming attached in an unhealthy way ...
The suggestion to keep sponsors/sponsees in the same sex category wasn't just something that came forth 'out-of-the-blue' ... There was a very good reason for it ... I know, I know, times have changed ... ... ... But a man is still a man and a woman is still a woman ... When the time comes to share our most vile 'defects', during the process of working the steps, CAN we be comfortable, and totally honest, sharing with someone of the opposite sex ??? (despite any age difference) ... ...
I simply think it unwise to challenge the 'wisdom' of the older members when it comes to this subject ... Despite whether or not it's mentioned in the BB or not ...
God Bless, Pappy
P.S. I used to go to a lot of meetings and pretend I was sincere to get and stay sober ... 'til one day I found out that I did certain things that I wanted to do, regarding the program, only to realize later that I was building a 'back pocket' of excuses to use if and when I failed to stay sober ... Does this sound familiar to anyone ??? ... (I kept going around in circles for years 'til I finally got 'totally honest' with me ...)
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Hey Tipsy.......WE may not be responsible for our illness but we are responsible for our own recoveries.There are "opinions" that have been suggested by our predecessors and they have valid reasons why they are suggested. And yes you will take heat somewhere along the line,but as we say we cant save our A-- and our face at the same time. I say that to say this, My experience has always been to first meet with a sponsee and put some guidelines into place and what the expectation of the relationship is for both of us .I have found that it has helped each of us down the road to get a clear understanding upfront of how we were going to go forward (Step Work,Meetings,Service etc).There will be time to share when you 2 meet up(if that occurs) You have stated your feelings about the relationship you may be developing so honesty again is in play here.A sponsors main purpose is to help their sponsee work through the 12 steps by sharing their own ESH and being a model of our spiritual principles instilled in our own lives.I personally am glad you have a Sponsor(if that's where it goes)I have friends with double digit years of recovery who cross sponsor and it seems to work for them and their sponsees. Honesty and a willingness to do what it takes to keep away from that "first one" and getting to the exact nature of whats going on with you...I always suggest prayer and pray before any major decisions are made in any of my own affairs. Just don't use!!!! This illness don't play,I have personally seen many close to me that didn't make it in my own journey,some I believe because they just couldn't reach out and really ask for or even have our only requirement up in here ,that is the "desire" to stop drinking.Those who value sponsorship get the most from our program.I also know for me that my sickness wasn't temporary so I never had a 'TEMPORARY SPONSOR .This is my stuff man and I will pray for your daily journey. Didn't mean for a diatribe wouldn't want to see someone asking for help,not finding it and not making it back. I do always suggest from my own experience,to listening around for a sponsor at different meetings and it will happen.Thanks for sharing ,that's how WE get help...Peace..
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Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
Thanks mike and thank you all. I expected far worse and was prepared for a fight. One thing that I didn't mention is that my father and mother split up when I was 4 and I think that contributed to me having issues with male authority figures throughout my life, teachers, bosses, etc. I react badly to other men telling me what to do. It's stupid and irrational but it's deeply engrained in me and, as much as I'd like to, I can't get over it. I think that perhaps a woman sponsor may be able to reach and guide me in a way that a male couldn't. Would it be better if she was unattractive and 90 years old? Undoubtedly, but I trust her motives and I know what mine are so I'm not overly concerned.
Although I do find myself taking more time than usual picking out my cloths before meetings...and always making sure I have a rubber in my wallet. Ha ha just kidding :)
I immediately told her about it and she's very happy. Even in my worst drunken horribleness I've never given any reason to think I'd be unfaithful...so I guess she feels that if I didn't do it loaded there's little chance of me being unfaithful sober. She's right. She's very supportive and just happy to see that I'm working on it. I'm very fortunate to have her. I couldn't ask for a better partner and mother to our child. I'm living proof that karma is bullshit because I don't deserve her.
Generally speaking Tipsy enjoys being controversial, search his history and you find some whoppers, in many ways I approve, I always said "I am here to disturb the comforted and comfort the disturbed", I used to get to meetings early just to sit in old timers favorite seats just to watch them squirm, I've had periodic binges on a "straight pepper diet", and truthfully, since I got sober young, young beautiful sober women were a big part of my sobriety, I made some mistakes, slept with my fair share of them, some grew into lifelong friends.
My second sponsor was a woman, 30 years my senior, and she outweighed me by a good 200 lbs, I learned a -ton- from her, she's a big part of my story and my sobriety, but having an (and he made sure to mention it) attractive girl be a "temporary sponsor" is good controversy, which is what Tipsy enjoys, about half the time he posts here he is s***faced, right on, whatever floats your boat and he may in fact get sober, he might not.
I posted the facepalm because it was funny, because Tipsy is funny, because he says "frog" and people jump, and I thought this was a particularly good effort on his part as far as the grenades he lobs on this forum go.
Whatever else he gets good responses, his threads are always entertaining, as much for the knee jerk responses as for his posts
-- Edited by LinBabaAgo-go on Saturday 19th of May 2012 09:06:06 PM
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Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
I agree with Lin Baba here. Keep it simple. In leau of no sponsor, I guess an attractive opposite sex sponsor is better than none, but are we looking for ways that do not have a high percentage of success, or are we looking to stay sober? You seem like the kind of guy that needs to do things the hard way, so press on and I hope for the best for you, but why complicate things--and--in a non selfish way, are you doing whats best for the lady? How strong is she? You seem like a person who likes to test boundries. Is that really good for the lady sponsor? How about a no nonsense old dude with bad breath but a great success rate? Just asking.
Tom
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"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
Honestly , it has been my experience to find many more men AA members at meetings than women.
Honestly again ... I dont think much of the gal for offering to help you. If she would have suggested some guys with good sobriety to help you, that would have been more of a help to you than her helping you.
My sponsor got sober in Cleveland, where she learned ( and thus taught me ) good old fashioned, get and stay sober AA by the book. She always, always said, "Men with men and women with women ... thats how its suppose to be".
I have two sponsors. One of them is the opposite sex. The male lives about 1000 miles from me; he's the reason I got sober and a great mentor. My other sponsor is a woman. I did the majority of the steps, including my 4th, with her.
Congrats on finding a sponsor... be ready to do the work.
happycamper wrote: Men with men and women with women ... thats how its suppose to be
Really? Show me where exactly in the big book it states that? It must be often since it's obviously so important...but I only need one example. Or perhaps it isn't in the big book because it was never part of the original foundation of AA. You know something AA people remind me a lot of regular religious crackpots sometimes. They thump their chests about "the way the good book says it's should be" without having a goddamn clue if what they're claiming is even in there.
"Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their
common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism."
Generally speaking Tipsy enjoys being controversial, search his history and you find some whoppers, in many ways I approve, I always said "I am here to disturb the comforted and comfort the disturbed", I used to get to meetings early just to sit in old timers favorite seats just to watch them squirm, I've had periodic binges on a "straight pepper diet", and truthfully, since I got sober young, young beautiful sober women were a big part of my sobriety, I made some mistakes, slept with my fair share of them, some grew into lifelong friends.
My second sponsor was a woman, 30 years my senior, and she outweighed me by a good 200 lbs, I learned a -ton- from her, she's a big part of my story and my sobriety, but having an (and he made sure to mention it) attractive girl be a "temporary sponsor" is good controversy, which is what Tipsy enjoys, about half the time he posts here he is s***faced, right on, whatever floats your boat and he may in fact get sober, he might not.
I posted the facepalm because it was funny, because Tipsy is funny, because he says "frog" and people jump, and I thought this was a particularly good effort on his part as far as the grenades he lobs on this forum go.
Whatever else he gets good responses, his threads are always entertaining, as much for the knee jerk responses as for his posts
-- Edited by LinBabaAgo-go on Saturday 19th of May 2012 09:06:06 PM
Oh how I wish my posting was nothing more than just immature trolling for attention or a response. I would feel considerably better about my situation if that was the case. No, unfortunately it's all really stuff that's in my head or that I'm going through. I mentioned that my sponsee was young and attractive because I knew it would be asked. I know the attitudes of some AA know-it-alls so I was sort of picking a fight. The reason is because I have no interest or use for anything outside of what helped the first 100 and thousands afterward recover...the big book. Everything else, all the slogans, all the cliches, all the made up bullshit that came after is nonsense. I guess that's why I was picking the fight, to challenge the notion that any of you know better than the people who wrote the big book. And to say f-u to anyone who tells me who and who can't or shouldn't be my guide through it.
Nice thread guys. Tipsy, if this person steers you in the right direction then it shouldn't matter, should it? Besides, it's only a sponsor and not a mistress, right? You're going to meetings Tipsy, are you not? And to me that's what truly matters. So enjoy yourself, okay. Well...you know what I mean.
FYI, I am going to lots of meetings, I'm checking in with my hot sponsor via email, text or phone daily and in addition to seeing eachother at meetings where she introduces me to many men and woman who have long-term sobriety, her and I meet once a week at Starbucks and thoroughly go through sections of the big book. She's a very nice person but super serious about her recovery and kind of a hard ass with me. Manipulating her is impossible because she was very much like me so she knows all my tricks and has heard all my bullshit before as it came out of her own mouth. I find that when a guy tells me what to do it makes my hackles go up. When she, or other women I respect, do the same I'm much more accepting. Maybe it stems from growing up with a single mom who I love and respect? Maybe I just find men confrontational? Who knows? It's just the way it is.
-- Edited by TipsyMcstagger on Sunday 20th of May 2012 09:30:32 AM
As far as what the founders thought about women in AA, much of their experience didn't make it in the book, Bill hit anything that moved, so much so there was a committee assigned to keep him away from newcomer chicks, and Bob caught alcoholic number 7 mounting alcoholic number 9 on his examination table and wanted to not let women into AA, but that's what makes AA so incredible, not that these guys were saints, but that they were incredibly human with human frailties and still put together this incredible program.
What Bill writes about sex in the fourth step is about the best, no nonsense approach to sex I have ever seen, it really lays it out well, no pun intended.
There is some good sound reasoning behind men with men, women with women, on so many levels, we can manipulate those of the opposite sex, and for many of us, the opposite sex is part of our problem, seeking validation, but being human, we do what we do and we gain experience.
Good judgment comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgment.
We have a lot of good judgment and experience in AA, not because we do everything perfectly, the opposite in fact, because defiance is the outstanding characteristic of the alcoholic, we not only touch the hot stoves, we sleep with them.
Tipsy's pretty funny, and I hope he finds a path that makes him happy, allows him to be a good father for his child, and lets him sleep at night, I suspect if/when he does get sober, his story will be outragously funny told from the vantage point of a few years of sobriety, and guys like him (and me I might add) end up being great sponsors, not because we did everything right, but because we did everything wrong, I suspect if Tip does get sober after he works the steps he will make a great sponsor, and do a lot of facepalms his own self some day.
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Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Now about sex. Many of needed an overhauling there. But above all, we tried to be sensible on this question. It's so easy to get way off the track. Here we find human opinions running to extremes absurd extremes, perhaps. One set of voices cry th at sex is a lust of our lower nature, a base necessity of procreation.
Then we have the voices who cry for sex and more sex; who bewail the institution of marriage; who think that most of the troubles of the race are traceable to sex causes. They think we do not have enough of it, or that it isn't the right kind. They s ee its significance everywhere. One school would allow man no flavor for his fare and the other would have us all on a straight pepper diet. We want to stay out of this controversy. We do not want to be the arbiter of anyone's sex conduct. We all have sex problems. We'd hardly be human if we didn't. What can we do about them?
We reviewed our own conduct over the years past. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, or inconsiderate? Whom had we hurt? Did we unjustifiably arouse jealousy, suspicion or bitterness? Where were we at fault, what should we have done instead? We got this all down on paper and looked at it.
In this way we tried to shape a sane and sound ideal for our future sex life. We subjected each relation to this test -was it selfish or not? We asked God to mold our ideals and help us to live up to them. We remembered always that our sex powers we re God-given and therefore good, neither to be used lightly or selfishly nor to be despised and loathed.
Whatever our ideal turns out to be, we must be willing to grow toward it. We must be willing to make amends where we have done harm, provided that we do not bring about still more harm in so doing. In other words, we treat sex as we would any other p roblem. In meditation, we ask God what we should do about each specific matter. The right answer will come, if we want it.
God alone can judge our sex situation. Counsel with persons is often desirable, but we let God be the final judge. We realize that some people are as fanatical about sex as others are loose. We avoid hysterical thinking or advice.
Suppose we fall short of the chosen ideal and stumble? Does this mean we are going to get drunk. Some people tell us so. But this is only a half-truth. It depends on us and on our motives. If we are sorry for what we have done, and have the honest desire to let God take us to better things, we believe we will be forgiven and will have learned our lesson. If we are not sorry, and our conduct continues to harm others, we are quite sure to drink. We are not theorizing. These are facts out of our ex perience.
To sum up about sex: We earnestly pray for the right ideal, for guidance in each questionable situation, for sanity, and for the strength to do the right thing. If sex is very troublesome, we throw ourselves the harder into helping others. We think o f their needs and work for them. This takes us out of ourselves. It quiets the imperious urge, when to yield would mean heartache.
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Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Hey Tipsy, If it works, it works. I am just glad to see an aggressive approach to your disease of powerlessness. If a hot, young, voluptuous, wet tee shirt wearing sponsor can bring you a new life, rock on! We should all be so lucky. Tom
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"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
Condoms don't guarantee safe sex anymore. A friend of mine was wearing one when he was shot by the woman's husband. Pass this safety information on to all your buddies!
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
I should probably begin by saying that I'm a heterosexual man. This is my second time around in this program. I first found the program with the gracious assistance of the court system back in 1978 after I had hit their bottom. My first sponsor and one that I had for many years was a very attractive gay man. My second and final entry into this program was twenty years ago this May 10th. This time I found, with the exception of my wife, the most beautiful woman I have ever met to be my sponsor...though you couldn't see her beauty from the outside.
Which is worse?
Fact is, I didn't know he was gay at the time - and she was the only person in the room with the same higher power as I had and at the time, that seemed crucial to me. My choices, particularly the second choice, was made solely with the intent of getting and staying sober. Hitting your bottom comes with a certain degree of desperation and, despite our befuddled mind at the time, a certain degree of clarity. It is my belief that if you are looking for help sincerely, then it won't matter - and if you are playing a game, even one that you're not aware of, you're not ready and will probably destined to head back out anyway.
I am a year late coming to this thread, but I will put in my two cents' worth. Opposite-sex sponsorship may work fine for some, but I don't recommend anyone entertain the idea - it isn't worth the risk. I am a woman who recently asked a gay man to be my spiritual sponsor - safe enough, right? We had been good friends for several years. We were both "mature" individuals with quite a bit of sobriety, and I had another sponsor who was a woman with decades of sobriety. He had a man with decades of sobriety. They both gave the sponsorship their blessings. Within a month I was halfway in love, and as far as I was concerned, he walked on water. At the end of three months I was full-on in love and he was my higher power. It was at that point that I fired him, and I had to tell him exactly why. This completely blew up in our faces. To top it off, he is in my (small) home group. I may have to leave it. It will take me a long time to recover from this, and I'm glad I have enough of the AA program under my belt that I have not picked up a drink over it. This is why they say "women with women, men with men". Don't think it could not happen to you, do not take this risk. Sponsorship is an INTIMATE connection, and sharing this connection with someone of the opposite sex is a recipe for disaster. I hope my story has helped someone.
And thanks to both of you, Tanin and Pappy! I am doing okay in my "recovery" from this situation, and am managing to restore and return to my true Higher Power.
And thanks to both of you, Tanin and Pappy! I am doing okay in my "recovery" from this situation, and am managing to restore and return to my true Higher Power.
I'm glad you're doing OK, E1331.
There are certain rules in AA that well-meaning members break, usually with little or no social disapproval from the membership at large.
Opposite sex sponsorships is one of those.
Of course, there is no actual rule about it in the sense of enforceability or prevention. And that is why it happens.
Sometimes it turns out OK. Sometimes not. Sometimes it becomes a horror story, such as the Karla Mendez case in Santa Clarita CA case.
Thanks for the input, Tanin. I read something about this case, and it was terrifying to think this could happen. I could not tell from the articles that he was actually sponsoring her; in fact I wonder if she had a sponsor at all. In any case, she hooked up with a nightmare.
This was not a predatory man I asked to be my sponsor, but someone genuinely sweet and kind with several years of sobriety. We had been friends for years. But for a variety of reasons the whole scheme completely backfired and has left me devastated. The dynamic changed when he became my sponsor and I began to turn my life and my will over to him. In his defense, he never asked for it - I simply (in my mind) began handing it over to him, because I was falling head over heels in love. It ended in disaster.
I am blessed with a woman sponsor who is now trying to help me through this. She is kicking herself for telling me it was okay to do this, and it's possible his sponsor is kicking himself as well. Men with men, women with women - most old-timers will tell anyone this, especially those they are sponsoring.
I forgot to think, think, think, before asking him to sponsor me. And to examine my real motives. And to ask for spiritual guidance. Now I am paying the price. I really hope my story will help someone to make an appropriate decision. It might make all this pain worth it.
E1331, Your story reminds me of the old chestnut, "Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it."
And, yes, your sharing of your experience, especially with its honesty and frankness, will help remind and alert others about this issue. It seems to me that some of these cases are kind of hushed up. People don't discuss them. Therefore, people don't know about them. That's a negative situation since the word doesn't get out enough. That leads to it happening again. And sometimes the outcome is really horrendous. Like the nearly incredible story about opposite sex sponsoring is the Paul Corrigan case in Philadelphia. That's the worst one I have ever read about.
Thank you, Tanin....as you can see, I am new to these boards. And I will keep coming here as you suggest. I think the boards may be of help in the healing process I am going through - along with daily meetings, my dear sponsor, prayer, reading, and reflection.
