Male/Female Sponsorship - Please ??

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Male/Female Sponsorship - Please ??

anon11 · Newbie

Hi,

I am first time sponsoring somebody. I am a female he is male. When he asked me to sponsor him I did talk to my sponsor about it because of the obvious fact that he is male.

Justification here and why we agreed that I would take on the role of being his sponsor is because I thought he is gay. I thought this, simply because he told me so.

After having started sponsoring him, it appears to me that he has interest in women. I get the feeling that I may need to tell him to find a male sponsor if his sexuality is mistaken. I feel terrible having to do this.

My sponsor told me to ask him about his sexuality, I feel a bit uncomfortable having to approach him with this question but I understand why it needs to be done.

If it does come to the point where I will have to tell him that he needs to find a male sponsor, I am wondering if anybody has suggestions as to how to go about it??

I feel bad because he has shown me that he is willing to go to any lengths to get this program and has expressed his gratitude greatly. I feel as if I would disappoint him or tamper with his insecurities. I feel almost if I had to tell him to get another sponsor that maybe he wouldn't try so hard, and possibly be let down by the program.

Any thoughts??

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Hard to comment without pics. just kidding. Good advise above, and several are dancing around the obvious. If there is now, or in the future, any attraction toward one or the other, then, imo, the relationship should be terminated, with some notice "get a male a sponsor". Other wise, if it's not broken... Usually mixed sponsorships work better with sponcees that are not newcomers. There are certainly good reasons for sticking with the suggestions though.

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Monday 19th of March 2012 08:11:37 AM

rrib · Senior Member

anon11 wrote:
Any thoughts??

Ya, it already sounds complicated.

This is why so many suggest that boys sponser boys and girls sponser girls.

Maybe it should be phrased 'like gendered' should sponser 'like gendered', so that problems of sex and romance don't cloud our primary purpose to stay sober and help other alcholics achieve soberity.

barisax · Senior Member

It just occurred to me reading this that there is more to the same sex sponsorship suggestion than the issue of sexual attraction. Women and men see things differently and communicate differently, and sometimes the differences are more than just the difference between an alcoholic and a non-alcoholic.

There may be men out there who think like women, and vice versa, but I imagine they're pretty few and far between, and have little to do with sexual orientation.

If I want to take piano lessons, I wouldn't go ask a gymnast. So if I'm a male alcoholic and I want to become a sober male alcoholic, I will probably do best seeking out a sober male alcoholic.

Nothing is absolute, and I happen to know of a very successful exception. But the suggestions are based on an awful lot of accumulated experience. I'm not much of a gambler, I'd go with the 99% odds - but then again, we alkies like to think we're that ONE exception because we're so unique........

Barisax

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

I would say you have to trust your feelings on this. Same sex sponsorship is preferable for obvious reasons, but I have seen successful exceptions as well. I remember my early days, several "gracious women" took an interest in my welfare with no other motive other than to help me. My relationship with them was not quite sponsorship but it was quite close, and I have always been grateful to them for the kindness and understanding they showed me. My sponsor was gay so I suppose he could have had a motive, but he was in a committed relationship and he showed me what it is to truly practice this programme, the most selfless person I have ever known. I have never forgotten the kindness of his partner either, who wasn't an alcoholic, but supported my sponsor in everything he did. So I have met some wonderful trustworthy sane and loving people in the fellowship and they took good care of me. I have also seen predators and other sick individuals who could never manage to put aside selfish motives for the good of someone else. From your post it seems your pigeon is working well on the steps and is willing to go to any lengths - which is exactly the ground to be covered in a sponsor/pigeon relationship. If neither you or the pigeon is showing any sign of wanting to extend the relationship beyond the program of recovery, then perhaps it would be right to continue.

God bless,
Mike H.

Mr_David · MIP Old Timer

If you're uncomfortable with the sponsor/sponsee relationship, than turn them over to someone else instead. It's that simple. Just tell them it's not personal, okay. Then guide them through the transitional process.

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

are we all that insecure that we will immediately deflect? Just curious? I feel I could and would deal with a male sponsor better. I relate to my dad better, my husband is my best friend, and most of my friends are male. The one great girlfriend I have who has been my friend since I was 4, is exactly the same way, and my other best friend, mostly has male friends. I think some woman do better being told how it is... and prefer that... just a thought.

vixen · MIP Old Timer

I find that the suggestions in the Big Book and AA related literature are keeping me sober, so I follow them. This one included. I too get along better with men and I now have a lovely relationship with my female sponsor. God works in mysterious ways...if i let Him. :)

-- Edited by vixen on Thursday 22nd of March 2012 10:45:04 AM

-- Edited by vixen on Saturday 24th of March 2012 02:18:53 AM

LinBabaAgo-go · Senior Member

Sponsorship as such isn't talked about in the Big Book because it hadn't been "invented" as we know it today, back then to "sponsor" someone was to actually "qualify" him for membership, to state he was an alcoholic that fully conceded to his innermost self that he was powerless over alcohol, that he was "licked", and that he was "willing to go to any lengths to get sober"

Clarence S (Bob's sponsee) "invented" sponsorship as we know it today, he was the one who "suggested" and proved that -just- the Big Book, along with Sponsorship (as he invented it) were an effective means of staying Sober, back then AA had 3 groups IIRC, Akron (Bob), NY (Bill), and Cleveland (Clarence), NY had shite success using Bill's model, Akron sobered up a few drunks, but Cleveland (using Clarence's new sponsoring technique) is where AA -exploded, leading many to believe that is where AA was founded, and Cleveland's "AA Model" is what spread all over the world and is what we know as AA today.

It helps to know what sponsorship is and where it comes from before making statements and judgments about it, generally speaking, as in all of the time if there is a chance of sexual predation or sexual energy entering the equation, or, if what the woman is addicted to is men, men's opinions, etc, as in generally speaking in every case, cross sex sponsorship is a stupid idea, because what we share is our experience, strength and hope, and a man sponsoring a woman has never given birth, or has any experience with what it is like to be a woman, and vice versa.

Many womanwhen they are new try to get a male sponsor for a number of stated reasons, but one of the benefits of sobriety is getting comfortable with members of your own sex, women can manipualte men easier then they can women, and frankly never learned HOW to relate to other women, almost every single woman I know who has long term sobriety ppoints at her FEMALE sponsor and support group and describes how these people saved their lives, because when they got sober they ALSO didn't "relate to other women", and frankly that was tied into their addiction, if you want it explained further, ask a woman with long term sobriety, all I know is it is of critical importance, since so many women rely on the validation of men, learning to navigate the world with -that- addiction is one of the keys to happy and contented sobriety, unless you want to end up in yet another 12 step program.

I have watched this same shit for decades, and the women who get and stay sober, are the women who pick women sponsors and follow directions.

There are exceptions, rare as they are, and they work. My Third sponsor was 30 years older then me, a therapist, couples counselor, built about like Jabba The Hut, and female, and I specifically worked the steps with her to address some of my relationship/sexual addiction issues. It was my third trip through the steps and I had done a stretch with her as my couples counselor, then therapist, so my choice was methodical and one of the most fruitful of my 10 or so trips through the steps, and I still pass on things I learned from her 18 years later.

Yes, there are exceptions, but generally speaking it's a stupid idea for obvious reasons to everyone except those making the decision, who will learn why it's a stupid idea on their own anyway probably first hand.

If anyone is interested in learning about sponsorship, and why it was invented, who invented it, and the founding of modern day AA <----click

-- Edited by LinBabaAgo-go on Saturday 24th of March 2012 12:02:19 AM

Dan B 76 · Veteran Member

anon11 wrote:
Justification here and why we agreed that I would take on the role of being his sponsor is because I thought he is gay. I thought this, simply because he told me so.
After having started sponsoring him, it appears to me that he has interest in women.
I feel almost if I had to tell him to get another sponsor that maybe he wouldn't try so hard, and possibly be let down by the program.

A sponsor sponsee relationship needs to be based on honesty and trust. From what you have written it seems that those two components are missing. If he told you he is gay but isn't then honesty on his part is lacking. Perhaps by saying he was gay ne meant he was bi. This is a half truth and still not honest. If you don't believe what your sponsee tells you then you don't trust him. If he is gay and you are getting another message then you don't trust him either.

For me I have to believe what a sponsee tells me if they don't get the honesty then they don't get the program. I will ask directed questions but in the end if the answers aren't honest the only one that suffers is him. If I don't trust a sponsee they generally will notice this and typically if someone doesn't believe they are trusted, especially someone new to the program, the relationship is damaged.

If you feel that you cannot sponsor this person any longer and tell him so that is what you need to do. It will be best for both of you. You can always be a friend and support person in the program. That doesn't have to end if you feel you cannot sponsor him anymore. If he struggles with your decision or even returns to using it isn't your fault or responsibility. He could use this as a reason to use again but the bottom line is he is an addict and looking for a reason to use, if it wasn't this it would be something else. You are only responsible for your own sobriety.

It is also better for same gender sponsorship for the reasons mentioned in other posts.

-- Edited by Dan B 76 on Saturday 24th of March 2012 10:34:41 AM

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Thanks Andrew, you are a mine of information.
I book marked appendix D, Clarences pamphlet on sponsorship, very enlightning. It's funny how things go, the BB doesn't mention sponsorship per se but much of "Working With Others" is exactly what Clarence was talking about. As you say mixed sponsorship is not generally advisable but not only because there might be "distractions" between the two, but also because there are often other people involved, husbands and wives, whose feelings also need to be considered. Misunderstandings in this area could have devastating consequences.

I am not too sure how this was handled in the early days but, correct me if I'm wrong, I have the feeling that I read that often non-alcoholic women looked after the alcoholic women. This was before Alanon was formed when,I believe, the wives played quite an active role.

On the local front we often struggle to find female sponsors for new women that come in through the general meetings, so we really can't spare any to sponsor men.

God bless,
MikeH.

LinBabaAgo-go · Senior Member

Wolfie55 wrote:
Always good to see this topic come up. I sponsor men and women. Doesn't matter to me. A rose by any other name is still a rose. I guess the same is true of thorns.

Just some food for thought. I have read the basic text portion of the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous about a thousand times and I haven't read that part about same gender sponsorship anywhere in there. I have a fourth edition. If it was that much of a problem, wouldn't they have changed the book by now?

Questions and Answers about Sponsorship

AA experience does suggest it's best for men to sponsor men, women to sponsor women. This custom usually helps our members stay focused on the AA Program.

Our experience helps keep vulnerable newcomer women from sexual predators that pose as AA gurus in AA that offer to "sponsor" them with an entirely different agenda in mind. Many times newcomer women suffer from a host of other maladies since our drinking is but a symptom such as approval seeking from men, so our experience and suggestions about same sex sponsorship are there for a number of reasons, since this is a program where we share our experience, strength and hope, and I personally do not have breasts, nor have I given birth, nor will I ever, thus I also will never have experience with actually being a woman, thus will never be qualified to sponsor one, and frankly view anyone that sponsors newcomer women as a matter of course when there are qualified women that also -need- to sponsor in order to stay sober with great suspicion if not downright loathing, as they rob not only the woman they are so called 'sponsoring" of the incredibly important lessons women learn about self validation and self empowerment and how to build friendship and trust with other women, but also the women that need to pass these lessons themselves in order to grow.

Then when they tell humorous little anecdotes about their wives getting upset after catching them at home with a vulnerable newcomer while the sponsor "innocently" cooks lunch for two Hunter S thompson's favorite line comes to mind, something about "Fear and Loathing".

Thankfully I come from an area with a strong fellowship where newcomer women are warned about these predators by the other women, and the predators themselves are taken out behind the woodshed to have the word "suggestion" explained to them.

To me there are only a few real "crimes" in AA, one is taking your sobriety and not giving back (boo hiss) but the second, and greater transgression is supposed old timers playing at sponsorship with vulnerable new members of the opposite sex, I find there are exceptions and they are few and far between but any old timer males that prey on female newcomers are best dealt with with using a 2 x 4 if the behavior continues after being talked to by a few AA members.

Don't really care if my view is unpopular or even care to hear a defense, if I saw this behavior going on in my fellowship I'd deal with it appropriately, preying on our vulnerable members is the single most horrific crime there is in AA, and yes it has a long and distinguished past in AA, but that doesn't make it right.

-- Edited by LinBabaAgo-go on Sunday 15th of April 2012 04:10:25 AM

Wolfie55 · Senior Member

Always good to see this topic come up. I sponsor men and women. Doesn't matter to me. A rose by any other name is still a rose. I guess the same is true of thorns.

Just some food for thought. I have read the basic text portion of the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous about a thousand times and I haven't read that part about same gender sponsorship anywhere in there. I have a fourth edition. If it was that much of a problem, wouldn't they have changed the book by now?

onedayatatimebaby · Member

show me in the BIG BOOK ???? I M A MALE ....ITS MOTIVES , THANK GOD 80 YEARS AGO YOU PEOPLE WERE NOT IN THE ROOMS, BEEN IN THE ROOMS SINCE 2000 . NEVER ASK FOR A WOMEN S NUMBER OR OUT ON A DATE. IF A WOMEN ASK ME TO SPONSOR HER , BECAUSE SHE WANTS A MALE . I M GOING TO SUGGEST A WOMEN. BUT NO WHERE IN THE BIG BOOK DOES IT SAY I CAN T . GODS WILL NOT MY WILL, IF I CAN SHOW HER THE WAY , DAMN RIGHT I WILL, OR SHE COULD DIE . SEX IS NOT WHAT I LOOK FOR IN THE ROOMS... SHOW ME IN THE BIG BOOK WHERE YOU CAN T. .. FOR GODS SAKE , SHOW ME ???? MOTIVES MOTIVES NOT SEX .. I M NOT THE SICK OLD TIMER WHO PREYS ON WOMEN.... GET ON THE BEAM ,,, NOT OFF THE BEAM ,,,, SHOW ME IN THE BIG BOOK ???????

onedayatatimebaby · Member

show me in the BIG BOOK ???? I M A MALE ....ITS MOTIVES , THANK GOD 80 YEARS AGO YOU PEOPLE WERE NOT IN THE ROOMS, BEEN IN THE ROOMS SINCE 2000 . NEVER ASK FOR A WOMEN S NUMBER OR OUT ON A DATE. IF A WOMEN ASK ME TO SPONSOR HER , BECAUSE SHE WANTS A MALE . I M GOING TO SUGGEST A WOMEN. BUT NO WHERE IN THE BIG BOOK DOES IT SAY I CAN T . GODS WILL NOT MY WILL, IF I CAN SHOW HER THE WAY , DAMN RIGHT I WILL, OR SHE COULD DIE . SEX IS NOT WHAT I LOOK FOR IN THE ROOMS... SHOW ME IN THE BIG BOOK WHERE YOU CAN T. .. FOR GODS SAKE , SHOW ME ???? MOTIVES MOTIVES NOT SEX .. I M NOT THE SICK OLD TIMER WHO PREYS ON WOMEN.... GET ON THE BEAM ,,, NOT OFF THE BEAM ,,,, SHOW ME IN THE BIG BOOK ???????

onedayatatimebaby · Member

LOVE YOUR POST MY REPLY TO THREAD

show me in the BIG BOOK ???? I M A MALE ....ITS MOTIVES , THANK GOD 80 YEARS AGO YOU PEOPLE WERE NOT IN THE ROOMS, BEEN IN THE ROOMS SINCE 2000 . NEVER ASK FOR A WOMEN S NUMBER OR OUT ON A DATE. IF A WOMEN ASK ME TO SPONSOR HER , BECAUSE SHE WANTS A MALE . I M GOING TO SUGGEST A WOMEN. BUT NO WHERE IN THE BIG BOOK DOES IT SAY I CAN T . GODS WILL NOT MY WILL, IF I CAN SHOW HER THE WAY , DAMN RIGHT I WILL, OR SHE COULD DIE . SEX IS NOT WHAT I LOOK FOR IN THE ROOMS... SHOW ME IN THE BIG BOOK WHERE YOU CAN T. .. FOR GODS SAKE , SHOW ME ???? MOTIVES MOTIVES NOT SEX .. I M NOT THE SICK OLD TIMER WHO PREYS ON WOMEN.... GET ON THE BEAM ,,, NOT OFF THE BEAM ,,,, SHOW ME IN THE BIG BOOK ???????

hopefulone · Senior Member

onedayatatimebaby,

You have the same posting three times above and already had posted this exact same thing when you started your own thread. Since it is all in caps as well, can you please delete a couple of the postings above? It comes across like you are yelling with the All Caps on and the moderators don't like us to repeat the same postings on here.
Thank you and have a great day.