Yep, thats me! The guy that so many think of as big bad John, the "GetterDone" guy, the one that so many come to when their ass is in a vise and their head is stuck in their ass...
I have been to the ER twice in the past week for anxiety attacks. At first I went thinking I was having respirory problems, couldn't catch my breath, panting, struggling to just get a breath of air.. after chest xrays, stephoscope, ekg, all the goodies that they would do for someone with a breathing problem they said they couldn't find nothing wrong. They are telling me this as I'm holding on to the rail on the side of the ER bed, shaking and grasping for air! Then I have a moment alone, and I realize... I have had no fever, no body aches, no indication of any infection in my spit or urine, nothing... I'm HYPERVENTILATING! Which is making me dizzy, and the fear a having a darn heart attack (which I've never had) or blowing another blood vessel in my brain (which I have had) has me so scared that it has me physically shaking like a drunk in his second day without a drink!
The nurse comes back and I tell her I think I'm having a panic or anxiety attack and hyperventing, which would explain the grasping for air, the dizziness, etc. The next thing I know they have a doctor from the MH Crisis unit come in and talk to me and they determine that I am in fact having a full blown anxiety attack. (I have never had one of these!) It is basically determined that the finalization of my divorce this month, almost losing a girlfriend to this disease a few months ago, the death of a friend of many years, the financial struggle I face each month, f'd up family of orgin dynamics, all the responsibility I have to tend to with the recovery house, ...ect, ect, ect... has taken its toll on me. And the anxiety attack is the offspring of my "waiting for the next shoe to drop", so to speak.
During this conversation I let them know that I'm a recovering alcoholic/addict with 22 years clean and sober.
The nurse brings me one pill, the littlest darn pill I have ever seen and says, "this should help you"... it's a 2mg ativan. I haven't taken a narcotic drug in so many years, but I'm so desparate that I take it like a like a man drinking water in the desert!
Within 15 minutes, I'm loopy as hell, but all the air grasping, shaking, everything has ended. They write me a script of 5, 1mg ativan, set me an appt for a shrink, and send me home. Of course being Mr. Recovery, I'm not going to take them and I end up back in ER within 72 hours having another anxiety attack! With 5 of their solutions in a Rx bottle! I finally conceed and take what they hand me again, 1mg ativan, and within minutes, I'm okay, calm, not struggling for air, not feeling like the room is closing in on me and while feeling a bit relaxed, I am not feeling loopy at all.
I feel like a baby throwing his bottle from the high chair to the floor, screaming "I want something else!" And they keep picking up the bottle and putting it back on the high chair tray... til I accept this is all I'm getting for now.
My brain is going a 100 miles an hour..."this is was not part of the plan of what 22 years sober would look like, this is not right, this is so screwed up!
It's been a week or so now, and I still have my 5 little bitty pills in the RX bottle... I'm not anxiety free, but I'm not having any attacks.
I will go to the shrink this week, and get some professional help, but I'm going to be really pissed if it entiles the idea that I'm going to be taking a narcotic drug to deal with it. Between my sponsor, the shrink, God, and this program, there has got to be a much better solution, one that doesn't come from a pharmacy.
This is NOT what I got clean and sober for, and this is not what I do what I do for!! It simply sucks in a big way!
John, Ativan is not a narcotic.... They are trying to give you benzodiazepines. Those are not a great option (especially in the long run) but they do stop a panic attack. I have had panic attacks and am still somewhat prone to them. Ideally, those can be used as last resort but there are other meds (buspar, effexor....and others) which should be able to take away the panic though they will take a few weeks to kick in. Those are not mind altering. In the meanwhile, you don't have to suffer with a full blown panic attack. The benzos are highly addictive but your plan is not to be on them long term. There are also ways to learn to minimize panic in therapy - not sure what the triggers are for you and why this is happening now. It does help to know that you cannot die from a panic attack even though it feels like you will. At worst, you will hyperventilate, pass out, and come back to.
Anyhow, panic disorder is a sucky condition, but not one that has to compromise sobriety. This condition is one in which worrying about it is actually something that exacerbates it. It feeds on itself...you can have a panic attack from worrying about having panic attacks. Try and keep level headed. It's not going to spiral out of control like you might think.
You are in my prayers.
Mark
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
In prayer and support John! I always try to see if there is something I can learn from the trials and set backs in my journey,sometimes much harder than others...WE are human and some times that personna of the "iron person" just disipates.(it may just be another MASK)....When I was taken away in a straight Jacket(1976 ,8 years before total surrender) to a mental institution ,wrestled off the streets and shot full of Thorazine I thought that it was just from the months of continued hallucinogenic drug use(trippin everyday) thought I just lost touch with reality,but many years later in recovery, as I looked deep inside, I believe I just broke in half.Yes im sure the trips helped me along but my mind could not handle anymore as I continually devastated the area with range of "ME"..You have taken some time to beat yourself up and have felt all the emotions, frustration, ,guilt ,anger,fear and the others Im not in your head but can identify.Get back on the horse,look inside to see what you have "learned" and pay it forward...I only share from my own ESH ,thats all I have to give...Thanks for sharing your pain,we can all always be just one bad decision away form where we came, but WE do learn that we have to really get to the 'exact nature ' of whats going on with us,tell on ourselves and find that spiritual strength that will continue to guide us,for when we are weak,In that faith we become strong....Peace man...........
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Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
Thanks for your words Mark! Just hearing what you had to say helped me put things in a better perspective. I thought ativan was a benzo, which is classified as a narcotic? It's not? I truly hope not. Also, something else I failed to mention is that the ER gave me a perscription of Paxil, 10mg. They say it is both a anti depressant and has a relaxant effect after its taken for about 10 days. So, far it hasn't relaxed me but it has me a bit shaky, not real bad, but a little.
Mark, I'm scared to be completely honest. It's not just the medications that I'm concerned with, but also the changes that need to be made in my life, my daily living stuff that could be big contributors to the stress and anxiety I have going on. I know I'll get through it all, but it doesn't mean I'm going to like it... at least until after the changes are in place and I'm experiencing the relief I obviously so badly need.
I would like to literally "hear" what you can share of your experience, so I'll PM you my phone number, and when you get a chance, please call.
but WE do learn that we have to really get to the 'exact nature ' of whats going on with us,tell on ourselves and find that spiritual strength that will continue to guide us,for when we are weak,In that faith we become strong....Peace man...........
Thank you so much Mike for sharing this with me. You are right, I am broken and it is in times like this, with tears rolling down my face that I am humiled and seeking God and holding onto my faith because I know that the "M" in Me has to be turned upside down so it becomes "We".
Hey John, A whining titty baby would not have the strength nor the integrity to face this situation full on as you are doing. Not that it will be an easy road, but I am sure that you will understand this malady better with therapy, become more familiar with it, and like anything we understand, we fear it less. Thank you for being so up front with this because we are all susceptible to this because of who we are and how we are built! My prayers are going out to strengthen yours, and please keep us posted!!! Tom
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"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
It amazes me every day how strong we truly are in the toughest of times. You are another example of how it works John, you came here and put your shit out for all to see, and it's the only way this thing works. I stand along side of you in many areas you spoke about, financial wreckage, emotional wreckage, the only difference is I took the prescribed meds at the advice of my sponsor, he told me to get off the f'ing cross, someone else needed the wood lol.. The mere fact that you showed your vulnerable like the rest of us, is an extremely brave act. If you can bare it all you can fix it all, now let someone else use the wood.
I can't thank you enough for creating a site for all of us to come to, you've certainly done an enormous amount of good for us.
Marc
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"Never make someone a priority who makes you an option"
Thanks for sharing John. In a way it's comforting to know that I am not the only one who has real life problems besides alcohol and drugs.
My own personal demon has been a few years of depression following a surgery and I resented the idea that there was a problem. After all, ain't I suppose to be immune from problems with all the spiritual stuff? NOT!
Thanks to the fellowship and the program, I didn't have to drink over it. That's something. Actually, that's a lot. I still remember what shape I was in when I was drunk all the time too on top of the other 'things' in life.
The meds can be of great help while you sort out how to deal with anxiety. I saw a therapist, who was utterly wonderful and wrote the book mentioned below, and he taught me so much about panic and how to manage it. One great thing I learned was that while panic attacks feel scary they are not dangerous. The absolute worst thing that can possibly happen is you faint. I learned to repeat to myself...this is uncomfortable, merely uncomfortable. Reminding myself of that kept it in perspective. The other thing I learned was that if you think of panic attacks being on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being a full blown attack, you can take action. If you catch an attack before it gets to level 6 or so, you can prevent it completely from going further. Some of the coping skills I used was singing (it helps regulate your breathing and distracts you), praying, talking with someone, removing myself from the situation, a cool rag on my wrists and forehead and others.
Use the meds as needed until you develop the coping skills and things will be fine. In my case, I have had only one full blown attack in over 5 years.
Best of luck to you. One great book I have used is by Dr. Bourne and is called The Anxiety and Phobia Workbook. All the best!!
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I think there's an invisible principle of living...if we believe we're guided through every step of our lives, we are. Its a lovely sight, watching it work.
ahhhhhh, I remember those awful awful AWful days of panic attacks. Did I mention they were awful? My first one was while relaxing on the couch, next thing I know I think I'm dying of a heart attack at the ripe old age of 21!!! Off to the ER I went, just like you, dumbfounded. I remember how struck I was at those miniscule pills. How could the tiniest pill in the world do so much.
Over all, as my PTSD was fed some much needed TIME, I realized the pills weren't really necessary anyway. I too, didn't even finish the first 5 pill prescription. I was too worried it would interfere with my drinking... at that time, I was just learning to drink in an alcoholic way and was protecting it like I would a newborn baby.
You probably don't have post traumatic stress disorder, but have you checked? I didn't know I had it at the time. I found the person closest to me had taken a shot gun to his head. Even if I had not actually FOUND HIM, I may have still developed this disorder which then rendered me useless for months. Maybe your situation has given you some sort of SHOCK! It sounds really hard.
There is a lot I wish I would have known then, about exercising, eating right and avoiding certain foods, and most of all, recognizing it and then talking myself "down". It happens so suddenly, and out-of-controlly ; ) that you probably can't imagine there is much you could do without a pill. And it will help to have that little bottle of "what works for sure" sitting next to you, as you learn to "turn your mind". Just like Vixen and others have said, you are NOT going to die. Do whatever will get your mind onto something else completely as quick as you can. For me it was calling someone who knew of my anxiety and blurting out "JUST TALK" at first. That was all I could muster, and as I would listen to their day or whatever it was they would talk about, I would feel relief from my own mind being cruel to me. Just be prepared to have it happen at any time, not just times when you think it should. Don't pace the house, or do "movement" things, unless your mind is going to have to concentrate really hard on them. This is in your head, so think of things now while you're not experiencing the wrath, that you know will entertain that brilliant mind totally. Singing is an awesome idea (vix).
John, what can I possibly say that hasn't already been said? You've done amazing things since sobering up and it doesn't take a genius to figure out how it was accomplished. You're steadfast dedication and unwavering commitment are something to behold, but you can't do it all by yourself. It's time you find rest for your weary soul and that means resting in him (God) not on our laurels.
Every time I feel overwhelmed, which I do on occasion, I must first ask myself this very important question: "what am I all worked up about". If I can figure out the reason behind my discomfort, than I can usually figure out what to do next. I've heard this expression used in the rooms from time to time and it does make some sense: "bear the discomforts and the comfort will come". How true. But let's face it, were not supposed to bear these burdens alone. It's only through the fellowship of "AA" that "we" alcoholics find a connection, and that includes a spiritual connection as well. When you combine those two sources together, you have a twofold connection that can provide us with some real solutions to solve our daily struggles. And that's how this "fellowship works".
I hope you find some rest, my friend, and put to bed this silly idea of managing all those responsibilities alone. Remember, you can't go this alone, but you can manage things better with the help of our fellows. So keep plugging along, my friend, and make us prouder than we are now.
~God Bless~
-- Edited by Mr_David on Wednesday 29th of February 2012 04:30:16 AM
I want to extend a big Thank You to everyone who has shown me so much support, understanding and love in this thread. I am in awe and while I wouldn't wish this condition on my worse enemy, I am glad that others let me know I'm not alone in it.
Hi John, I am sorry to hear of your present problems, boy, you've got a lot going on. For what it's worth, what you wrote had some similarities to what I have come to think of as the 20 year blues. I went through something similar a few years ago, only anger rather than anxiety seemed to be the symptom. I developed a very short fuse, especially at work and it was totally baffling. I was doing everything I new to do in AA, following proven path of helping other alcoholics, working the steps the best I knew how, nothing seemed to help. I went to my doctor and told him I was worried my bad temper would get me in trouble, he diagnosed depression and offered some medication. I declined saying I am in AA, we don't take pills, we pull our socks up! So I suffered on, I suppose the whole episode lasted about three years, then it relented. I did not drink, in fact even a thought of a drink never came up as an option, so it wasn't about alcohol. Then two things happened. Firstly I read about Bill W's episode with depression at about the 20 year mark, I think in the pamphlet Emotional Sobriety and it fitted pretty neatly with what I went through. When I think of all the work you do in the field, your circumstances and the personal stresses miight not be all that different to those that Bill was dealing with, so maybe part of the answer is there. His conclusion as I recall was that he had his dependence in the wrong place, that he needed to be dependent only on his God, not on people and not even on AA. This is where I feel God has lead me through this, to a place of calm, where I believe I can rely totally on Him, and the wordly events going on around me, good and bad, don't seem to have nearly the effect on me that they used to have. I don't suffer disappointment or resentment much anymore, nor am I so inclined to place expectations on others. It's a good place to be. On the other hand I ran into an old AA buddy of mine a year or so ago and she talked of a similar experience, about three years in duration that came on after she gave up smoking. She has similar length of sobriety to me. I am not good at remembering times and dates, but it seemed my depression began about the time I gave up the smokes, but for some reason I never made the connection till years later. Either way I guess it could be similar to Bill's and your experience. I had afterall been relying on nicotine and people as my emotional props and perhaps I needed a bit of a push to get my dependence where to really belonged. One thing I know for sure John, is that it will be alright. God bless, MikeH.
Hey Dean, teasing me like this isn't fair! It's been a bit too cold and wet here to ride lately! So.... I put a fan behind my laptop screen, pointed at me, and watched your video! Feel much better already! LMAO
LOL!! now that is a pretty wild ride, thanks Dean. John, we all know the sayings, the spirit of our program, and each of us play our part in the body of AA. like, stay in the moment, follow directions, and believe you are where you are supposed to be for a reason. you are helping so many people, now, just as you have helped others before today. Honesty, Openmindedness, and willingness are our watchwords. have you found a Dr who understands your addictions? are you willing to take your Doctors directions? taking medications as prescribed is something we do to get well. when we over-medicate or don't take a prescription, we have put ourselves in charge, and that is dangerous place for all of us. Find the right Dr, find the HOW of letting go and letting God replace your panic with faith however He chooses to do it. take care, jj/sheila
Hi John, Ive had the anxiety with the ativan, the hospitals and the whole problem of stress getting to me, its been something that has bothered me and got me thinking theres something wrong, heart, stroke etc...I went to emergwency for an ECG scan a while back they said nothing was wrong, as bad as it gets dont let things get to you, and remember EASY DOES IT...
Nelson pretty much hit on the best way to manage it and that is what I do also.
Myself as well, I started having anxiety/panic attacks years into sobriety as well, it's a long story but the outside stimuli didn't match the level of the emotional turmoil, I felt like I was going to die and I wasn't in danger, the confusing thing is I had stopped putting myself in danger, anyhow, long story short, I went to a psychriatrist, he put me on Zoloft, I stayed on Zoloft for a few months, weaned myself off and started learning how to manage my attacks, it's actually been nearly a year since I had to walk through one, I was having "close encounters" with them when ...well....when my situation warranted it, that's another long story, but I would breathe deeply and slowly, concentrating on my breathing and I would -know-, I would repeat to myself, "feelings not facts, this isn't real, I am not in danger" and as time went on and my life stabilized the attacks went away
But I was nearly the same boat as you, long term sobriety (although I went out) break up, economic insecurity, and a ton of emotional turmoil.
I learned how to do it drug free, but I took the drugs (Zoloft) through the worst of it, thing is the Zoloft took it away completely, so I could start from "zero" in a way, hard to explain, but as I stopped taking the Zoloft and the panic attacks/anxiety attacks began returning I could manage them a whole lot better, I also learned new tools, and learned I was counter-phobic, as in I do dangerous things in order to create fear and then manage it, my anxiety attacks started when I stopped risking my life, I had no way to manage my fears since that was only tool, and I never knew, so I had to learn how to start dealing with my fears like the rest of the world, and not by driving my motorcycle at 145 mph, climbing to the top of the Golden Gate Bridge, jumping off 300' cliffs, and wrecking large and dangerous trees or hiding my fears in a new pair of boobies (outstanding distraction, harmful in the long run).
I had to learn how to sit still with myself, took awhile but I did it, as in took years and then years later it happened again, and I was able to navigate it drug free using the tools I had learned.
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Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Benzos like Ativan are never a good idea for recovering Alcoholics. Benzos affect the brain chemically in the same way that alcohol does. I learned this the hard way after taking Ativan for anxiety and eventually relapsing on alcohol. I would advise against it. Just my opinion.
