We cannot tell anyone what to do, or what not to do... all we can do is make suggestions. We surely don't have the right to tell someone else what they should believe or not believe.
Without a doubt, there should be some qualifier for why someone is sitting in our closed meetings, but anyone can attend our open meetings.
If he is stating that he is an alcoholic with a desire to stop drinking. He meets the only requirement for even closed meetings.
It could be he is there to help the group and its members more than ya'll are there to help him. He might simply be a very good example of a bad example and we could develop some graditude that we don't have to live between his ears each day. Try to remember, no matter how sick he is, no matter how far down the scale he has gone or hasn't gone.. he is a child of a loving God. And we should probably over look a lot of his illness, and remember, if he can stay sober for 24 hours, that is evidence we all have a pretty good chance.
John
PS. You might want to read another recent thread called "AA Traditions"
I'm staying out of this one :p. He may be hanging around because he's a codependent, had alcoholic parents and it feels real cozy up in there.
Have you thought of changing the meeting format to a Step study meeting, that requires a sponsor for active partisipation? That'll separate the wheat from the chaff.
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Sunday 19th of February 2012 10:31:21 AM
Weve had a guy coming to our meetings for years now who continually tells us that we are stuck with him. He tells people that the steps will get them drunk, no need to look at the past. He shares how he believes in willpower and positive thinking. He takes anti-depressants and sleeping medication. He never had any cravings when drinking! Never any withdrawal symptoms! Now he has no character defects and has been on a pink loud for 6 years.
In short, he isnt an alcoholic but says he comes for the fellowship to meet people. He hangs onto the 3rd tradition - the desire to stop drinking when we tell him he shouldnt be there.
We know we shouldnt determine if anyone is an alcoholic or not but when they have said as much and it is so obvious can we tell him to leave?
Our group is very small in a very remote place, only about 6 members at most. Weve tolerated for years but now want to kick him out, if it is allowed?
He sounds sicker than I ever was. Why anyone would hang around AA for that long to... I guess troll is the word... is beyond me.
Maybe he is the example of what not to do.
My first thought is that you shouldn't, and that he should be met with more love and tolerance, but I'll leave it to more experienced and wiser heads to figure it out.
If your meeting is closed and he states he is not a alcoholic, then you could keep him out.
Other than that. The old take him out for coffee and explain that you want him at the meeting for whatever positive things he might bring, but his talking against the program and steps etc can actually kill a alcoholic who has cravings and is wanting to get sober.
The Serenity Prayer is not a cop-out, we need to perform dilegence in changing what we can.
__________________
Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
Sybil told me that Irma never came back to another meeting, left AA and died of alcoholism. She wrote to Bill about the incident, and I cannot tell you that this is the reason that the following is a part of the 3rd. Tradition, but it certainly seems to apply.
From Tradition 3, page 141: ... that we would neither punish nor deprive any AA of membership, that we must never compel anyone to pay anything, believe anything, or conform to anything? The answer, now seen in Tradition Three, was simplicity itself. At last experience taught us that to take away any alcoholic's full chance was sometimes to pronounce his death sentence, and often to condem him to endless misery. Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?"
I would not think it was good to kick him out. There is someone I can think of that goes to one of my regular groups and he often shares with an attitude of "You all have to put up with me and I'm so recovered that I am now marketing my own AA program." He will interrupt, talk out of turn. He is sicker than most while thinking he is better than most. Most people in the program do not like him and do not have nice things to say about him. He seems to be of the belief that this is because he is a "tell it like it is" person when really it is because he is abrasive, has no social skills, and is outspoken in a really bad way. Anyhow, I am familiar with the type that gains attention by annoying others. This personality type was exemplified in Man on the Moon (via Andy Kaufman).
Unfortunately, we don't exclude people with personality problems or those who don't use the program to change the way it is intended. There will always be sick people both in and outside of the rooms. In terms of karma - This guy you are talking about (as well as the one I am mentioning) cannot benefit from fellowship like most of us because few people can tolerate him. He has to live with that and not the rest of the group. His suffering is worse than others.
I do see how time spent listening to his non-AA BS is time taken away from your primary purpose and time taken away from the real program of AA, but like other's have stated, there are lessons to be learned in everything and patience and tolerance are lessons in AA that are more subtle and harder to recognize and accept.
Mark
__________________
Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Welcome to "MIP". I've had run-ins with similar people myself. They're disruptive, impolite and full of themselves. They say things like: "I'm not a low bottom drunk like you people". They take other peoples inventory, not their own. It's unfortunate, isn't it? But we pray that some day they will need this program just as much as everyone else. And I hope that day comes sooner rather than later.
It saddens me to think that anyone would be so careless in regards to their own drinking. The inadequacy they feel is just a tiny morsel of an even bigger problem. Something, I know all too well. My intellectual self sufficiency was no match for the fall to come. It only proved one thing, how powerless I really was. I could tell you how to get drunk but I couldn't tell you how to get sober. That was the easy part. I had to learn from my experiences and maybe this person will as well.
My suggestion, leave them be. If they continue to use this program as a meeting place instead of a recovery platform, then they will never withstand the storms of life (sober) like others do. It's only a matter of time. So for now, be vigilant, work the program as others do and wait for the miracle to happen. You might be called to another level of service before too long, and that might include a twelve step call to your friend there. Who knows? Remember, the door swings both ways. I hope it continues to swing in your favor, for today.
~God Bless~
-- Edited by Mr_David on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 03:12:21 AM
Dean---you suggest "Have you thought of changing the meeting format to a Step study meeting, that requires a sponsor for active participation?" I get the strategy, but don't care for the notion that a sponsor would ever be "required" to participate in any AA meeting-open, closed, discussion, or study. Having a sponsor is not part of the 12 steps and is only mentioned in some of the stories-not in the first 164 pages of the Big Book.
That'll separate the wheat from the chaff. 
