I hope that this doesn't come across as disrespectful to any of you or to the program. I have nothing but love in my heart for both. I just find myself unconvinced that I belong. If I turn out to be wrong I hope that I'll be welcomed back. My reasoning is this, as I get older these downward spirals seem to be less frequent and less severe. Admittedly there are times when I become very upset with my behavior, but it honestly does feel like I'm getting better and not worse. I just seem to show up here at my worst possible moments. I've read and re-read the big book and I sincerely don't believe that I'm an alcoholic...but simply a very sensitive person who uses alcohol to deal with the world. If I'm being 100% honest I have to admit that I like drinking. I like the way it helps me relax and deal with the overwhelming feelings I have. I just don't like when I let it get out of control. Which is easy to do for anyone using any medication that works well for them. Anyone who misuses pain killers would tell you the same thing.
I wish you all the best.
Sorry to hear it Tipsy, but only you can decide if you're powerless. If you make it back, you will be welcomed in all AA rooms. I just pray you make it back.
A man takes a drink A drink takes a drink The drink takes the man, it happens that fast.
__________________
"Never make someone a priority who makes you an option"
No problem Tipsy. As has been pointed out, this is a story told over and over again. The story only hits home when YOU hit bottom. Until that happens, you will continue to bargain with yourself. Tom
__________________
"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
That sounds just like the voice of the chemical and then it is what it is. Before you take the very next one...if you read this, look up Dr. Harry Tibout's dissertation on the difference between submission and surrender. If you drink first you might not be able to focus.
Tipsy, it takes what it takes, every last drink. The research that you do will help us all. Let us know, either way, how it went. No harm no foul. Like Mike b said, without surrender there is no step 1. We'll leave the light on for you.
Tip, if you can drink 2 drinks a night for ten nights, no more, no less (no quadruple shots) you aren't an alcoholic, if you even end up getting drunk once or twice you have your answer
that's what the big book means when it says "Try some controlled drinking, try to drink and stop abruptly"
If you can't "drink and stop abruptly" every time, you got the disease
__________________
Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Trying "controlled drinking" never crosses the thought or lips of one not afflicted! I once told a non-alcoholic friend of mine " if I could drink like you, I'd drink every day!!"
I tried it.. controlled drinking... and then it was pointed out to me that non alcoholics don't have to try to control their drinking.. that kind of thing is reserved for alcoholics that are still looking for the easier softer way.
I remember moving to the Texas - Mexico border in 1982. Not because I was an alcoholic, but because I could walk across the international bridge and keep drinking after 2am, when bars on this side closed. I stopped crossing the bridge before long, not because I was an alcoholic, but because Mexican jails really suck.
As someone else pointed out here... I had to drink every gulp of alcohol I took, until I was ready to concede to my inner most self... until I had mashed every reservation I had about being alcoholic and operating under the delusion that I would some day find a way to drink like normal, non alcoholic folks.
The beautiful thing about AA, is that the only requirement for membership is a "desire" to stop drinking. So, the door will be open, for those who are ready when they are ready... If it takes burning our lives down to the ground, over and over again in the getting ready process.. so be it.
That just might, maybe, possibly be a sign of alcoholism.
Good luck Tipsy. I don't consider myself an alcoholic either, HOWEVER, I like being sober more and more. Alcohol makes me dumb and kills brain cells, and this place is supportive as everyone here wants to quit, too.
I hope you're free of, as Dr. Silkworth said, "The habit of drinking which then becomes and obsession and manifests itself as an allergy in the body. When that which once brought relief eventually instead brings pain, remorse and despair. That is the hallmarks of this...disease...of alcoholism." If you decide to come back again please remember that we need you to keep us sober. Keep It Simple, Rob
Take good care and know if you need to come back, we'll be here. :)
__________________
I think there's an invisible principle of living...if we believe we're guided through every step of our lives, we are. Its a lovely sight, watching it work.
If I had a dime for every time I'd thought I could control my drinking, I'd be a very rich woman. I eventually wrote down everything I'd lost due to alcohol. It took me awhile to come to terms with it. And I'm still a work in progress.
Be careful and you're always welcome here. Trust me if you think no one will understand, the people here will and you will probably find the most compassion you've ever had in your life. I sure did.
You know...One thing that bothers me about you Tipsy...And I don't know you and probably will never meet you, which is fine with me.. You seem to take this whole thing like it's some kind of a joke...Look at your user name....Not exactly handpicked by someone that takes this serious. This is your life you are playing with here...This isn't a game...Not even close to one. And if I'm not mistaken...Did you mention you had a wife and kids??...I hope I heard that wrong. I would have guessed you were some 14 year old stealing beers from dad and hanging out on the alkie site. If I did hear that right...Then it's their lives you are playing with too. Not to mention your family and anyone else you come into contact with. My advice to you....When you get done figuring out if you have a problem or not is simple....Grow the F*** UP.... Man up and do something about it...Or go drink yourself to death. That's about the only two options you have.... God...I hope I heard that wrong that you have a wife and kids...Maybe it was just a nightmare. Anyway....You know the choices...Take your pick.
You know...One thing that bothers me about you Tipsy...And I don't know you and probably will never meet you, which is fine with me.. You seem to take this whole thing like it's some kind of a joke...Look at your user name....Not exactly handpicked by someone that takes this serious. This is your life you are playing with here...This isn't a game...Not even close to one. And if I'm not mistaken...Did you mention you had a wife and kids??...I hope I heard that wrong. I would have guessed you were some 14 year old stealing beers from dad and hanging out on the alkie site. If I did hear that right...Then it's their lives you are playing with too. Not to mention your family and anyone else you come into contact with. My advice to you....When you get done figuring out if you have a problem or not is simple....Grow the F*** UP.... Man up and do something about it...Or go drink yourself to death. That's about the only two options you have.... God...I hope I heard that wrong that you have a wife and kids...Maybe it was just a nightmare. Anyway....You know the choices...Take your pick.
Lol
Sounds like you've really matsered the not taking the inventory of others and avoiding having the attitude of a resentful, bitter, little, temper tanturm throwing child parts of the program.
I guess some of us are miserable and repugnant with no redeeming qualities when we drink, and some stay that way when they get sober.
I don`t know either one of you and this is just an observation. Sometimes when you care about someone you have to take a real hardnose attitude, not because you want to, but to try and get a point to sink in. I have read a # of posts by Stepchild and if I had to guess I would guess he is stepping up to the plate to try and get you to take a look at the seriousness of this disease.
I am glad you are still reading the posts TM and I hope you hear the concern in all of our posts to you
Sounds like you've really matsered the not taking the inventory of others and avoiding having the attitude of a resentful, bitter, little, temper tanturm throwing child parts of the program.
I guess some of us are miserable and repugnant with no redeeming qualities when we drink, and some stay that way when they get sober.
There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting. - Buddha
***************************************************************
I hope you find the truth within James, for you and your little baby...
__________________
There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting.
I lol'd that you laughed your a** off lol... love ya Dean!
This is the kind of shit...That makes no sense to me....The reason I say what I said...Is because maybe some part of me wants to see this guy make it...Not laugh along with him like he's some kind of circus clown. You guys enjoy the game...I have my own sobriety to take care of.
SC we're all wired about the same, when we come in here. We don't like being told what to do or talked down to. Our founders understood this clearly hence there are no rules, dues, or fees to AA and only one requirement. Most of us are looking for an excuse to hit the door upon arrival, and can't fight "cunning, baffling, and powerful" with "stfu, sitdown, and do what we tell you to". And really nothing that we say is going to keep them sober or send them back out if they if they have the gifts of desperation and willingness. It's going to be an outside force, event (consequences) that brings them into or back into the rooms with an earnest desire to work hard for their sobriety. I know that your post was written with good intentions, that's why I didn't comment even though I disagreed with it's tone. TM will be ready whens he's sick and tired. Our job is to leave the light on for him, and adhere to our Tradition of "Attraction, not Promotion". found this while googling just that.
ATTRACTION, NOT PROMOTION
November 28, 2010
"Through many painful experiences, we think we have arrived at what that policy ought to be. It is the opposite in many ways of usual promotional practice. We found that we had to rely upon the principle of attraction rather than promotion. TWELVE STEPS AND TWELVE TRADITIONS, pp. 180-81"
"While I was drinking I reacted with anger, self-pity and defiance against anyone who wanted to change me. All I wanted then was to be accepted by another human simply as I was and, curiously, that is what I found in A.A. I became the custodian of this concept of attraction, which is the principle of our Fellowships public relations. It is by attraction that I can best reach the alcoholic who still suffers. I thank God for having given me the attraction of a well-planned and established program of Steps and Traditions. Through humility and the support of my fellow sober members, I have been able to practice the A.A. way of life through attraction, not promotion."
Actually ole Tipsy seem to have his temper under better control, in the past as soon as someone quested his motives he'd rip them a new asshole and leave in a huff for 6 months or so then return with an ass full of arrows. Tipsy, if your out there and your not just trolling make an objective list of the good and bad thing that have happened in your life with regards to alcohol. I did this and discovered that lots of bad things and very little good came out of all my drinking. Main bad thing was I never knew what was going to happen , what I was going to do or where I'd end up. Woke up many time wondering, "Where's my truck, how did I get home." Lucky I never killed anyone driving in a full blackout. A drunks luck doesn't last forever, the rooms of AA are full of stories of members who had years of good recovery and then they fell off the wagon and couldn't find their way back. Many of them died. You seem to be hiding behind the anonymity of the internet so the members here can't be sure if your for real or just a troll. Whether you're an alcoholic or not only you can say for sure, but people without a problem don't hang around the fringes of 12th step forums for years like you have. You have a problem there is no doubt, you just need to figure out what you're going to do about your problem.
__________________
Work like you don't need the money
Love like you've never been hurt, and
dance like no one is watching.
I meant no harm, I just found Deans comment funny. I truly wish Tipsy the best. I just hope that if he is an alcoholic like us he makes it back. Its hard out there...especially alone..
__________________
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.
I think most oldtimers do have the same approach Stepchild took. (Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth). I have gotten that response sometimes...but I am committed to the program so I can handle it and it has a different meaning for me. Stepchild is missing the years or history we have with TM in which is this approach has been tried on Tipsy multiple times already and he wasn't ready for it then either.
__________________
Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
I think most oldtimers do have the same approach Stepchild took. (Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth). I have gotten that response sometimes...but I am committed to the program so I can handle it and it has a different meaning for me. Stepchild is missing the years or history we have with TM in which is this approach has been tried on Tipsy multiple times already and he wasn't ready for it then either.
I don't think so Mark, read carefully what Tip says
TipsyMcstagger wrote:
I hope that this doesn't come across as disrespectful to any of you or to the program. I have nothing but love in my heart for both. I just find myself unconvinced that I belong. If I turn out to be wrong I hope that I'll be welcomed back
There is respect, love, and he isn't sure, so he is going to follow the book's suggestion, -he doesn't know- if he belongs
We give him a hug and tell him he is welcome back anytime, maybe we try to impart some knowledge on the way out the door
A stated -lack of knowledge- pretty much won't get you an ass chew
On the other hand, new people who think they know everything and/or are lying to themselves and others are subject to get the 2x4 upside the head
AA is "this is what we have done" not "this is what you should do", so when new people "give advice" they might get a "Jesus Kid STFU" because they are talking outside their experience, and talking outside your experience is one of AA's few "cardinal sins"
-- Edited by LinBabaAgo-go on Tuesday 20th of December 2011 07:50:04 PM
__________________
Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
I wish him well on his new endeavor with the drink. It's a long and painful road for most, and for those we get to know a little bit it even hurts us a little. It is also the great reminder for those of us who have been around long enough, that this is a soul sickness, alcohol is Cunning, Baffling, and Powerful! It tells you that you may not be an alcoholic and that it's ok to drink, right before it kills you. Tipsy is traveling the road that very few can avoid, it's also the road that got most of us here. We have to welcome him back when he arrives and we have to tell him to be careful and that we'll keep his seat warm while he tries it some more. It's the A.A. way.
__________________
"Never make someone a priority who makes you an option"
Actually Mark, the reverse is true, Bill actually has something to say about it, he is very specific:
Don't start out as an evangelist or reformer. So cooperate; never criticize. To be helpful is our only aim.
If he does not want to stop drinking, don't waste time trying to persuade him. You may spoil a later opportunity
You will be most successful with alcoholics if you do not exhibit any passion for crusade or reform. Never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral or spiritual hilltop;
If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us. But point out that we alcoholics have much in common and that you would like, in any case, to be friendly. Let it go at that.
He goes on to use the term stupidity, strong language considering it's the one time Bill says, "Don't be stupid, you could kill people", which was my earlier point, that sort of behavior can sometimes result in the dreaded "ass chew"
We are careful never to show intolerance or hatred of drinking as an institution. Experience shows that such an attitude is not helpful to anyone. Every new alcoholic looks for this spirit among us and is immensely relieved when he finds we are not witchburners. A spirit of intolerance might repel alcoholics whose lives could have been saved,had it not been for such stupidity.
-- Edited by LinBabaAgo-go on Wednesday 21st of December 2011 07:28:22 AM
__________________
Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Or as I've heard the old timers call it in my meetings: don't shoot the wounded.
I have my doubts on Tipsy's real agenda but I figure he's either one of us with a serious denial problem or he is just getting his jollies here, but either way other people are reading this so it's not like the good advice has to fall on deaf ears.
Come on Frodo, you've only had to experience 1 year of Tipsey's rhetoric, many of us have had 4 or 5 years of it. It is what it is. I think he's one of us, just hasn't endured enough pain and most of us have a high tolerance for pain so it take time. This new child (and mother of that child) is changing the game a little for old Tipsey I think. lol
TM was here when I found this site in 05 and he hasn't changed much except he doesn't curse everyone out when he leaves. He post for several weeks, then either get mad or decides he isn't an alcoholic and leave, show up 6 months later with a ass full of arrow and remorse claiming he's serious this time. Repeat.
__________________
Work like you don't need the money
Love like you've never been hurt, and
dance like no one is watching.
Come on Frodo, you've only had to experience 1 year of Tipsey's rhetoric, many of us have had 4 or 5 years of it. It is what it is. I think he's one of us, just hasn't endured enough pain and most of us have a high tolerance for pain so it take time. This new child (and mother of that child) is changing the game a little for old Tipsey I think. lol
Yeah, that's cool. I was more making the point that regardless of what the story is we do need to be aware that somebody else in need of that advice might be reading, so growling at Tipsy could keep them away from the program.
That's all. His inventory is his to take, not mine.
Come on Frodo, you've only had to experience 1 year of Tipsey's rhetoric, many of us have had 4 or 5 years of it. It is what it is. I think he's one of us, just hasn't endured enough pain and most of us have a high tolerance for pain so it take time. This new child (and mother of that child) is changing the game a little for old Tipsey I think. lol
Yeah, that's cool. I was more making the point that regardless of what the story is we do need to be aware that somebody else in need of that advice might be reading, so growling at Tipsy could keep them away from the program.
That's all. His inventory is his to take, not mine.
Taking inventory has nothing to do with it.
First off this isn't AA, this is just a recovery forum, if anyone thinks they can get recovery online their just looking for that easier softer way.
There an old AA saying, "If you want what we have, do what we did"
We don't tell people what to do in AA, that doesn't work with Alcoholics.
We share our experiences and what worked for us, if a person insist on doing it their own way, that's fine too, but don't say the program doesn't work if you don't work a honest program.
The Only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop Drinking.
If you don't want to stop drinking you can't really be a member, that's fine too.
There's too many people out there who want it to waste time with someone who sitting on the fence.
If your a newcomer and want to get sober, get off the computer and sit your butt in a real AA meeting.
__________________
Work like you don't need the money
Love like you've never been hurt, and
dance like no one is watching.
Yup... I tried my own "controlled" drinking enough times that I am forever indebted to the folks who welcomed me back when I was ready. I am always happy to have the opportunity to return the favor.
I've just gotta say that this thread was a soothing and satisfying read today. I am glad that so many posters contributed sharp analysis, wise counsel and accurate descriptions of what AA is (and was). Lots of good sobriety here.
IMHO, the evangelistic and/or directive approach is a loser. And at the extreme edges, it isn't even AA
Actually Mark, the reverse is true, Bill actually has something to say about it, he is very specific:
Don't start out as an evangelist or reformer. So cooperate; never criticize. To be helpful is our only aim.
If he does not want to stop drinking, don't waste time trying to persuade him. You may spoil a later opportunity
You will be most successful with alcoholics if you do not exhibit any passion for crusade or reform. Never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral or spiritual hilltop;
If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us. But point out that we alcoholics have much in common and that you would like, in any case, to be friendly. Let it go at that.
. . .
These are important points of AA philosophy. In the Big Book. Indisputably valid.
Yet there seems to be the persistent temptation to approach newcomers with the "old school" hardnose approach. And some AAers succumb to the temptation. They use the "you, you, you" style.
This reminds me again of the difference between the descriptive vs. directive approaches in AA. Descriptive is good, it's what most AAers do. Directive is bad, being ineffective and just driving people away from AA.
