Recently I posted about an event in my life which brought home some rather adverse consequences for an alcoholic who tried to get sober with the aid of prescribed medication. See What would you do? for details. It got me thinking about this whole business so I thought I would share my thoughts with you guys.
There are certain givens in my thinking The doctors advice is paramount. It is the responsibility of the alcoholic to be completely honest with the doctor in order that the advice will be appropriate. But then the alcoholic has to be honest with themselves as well and should not be afraid to discuss the issues frankly with the doctor. In AA we ought not give medical advice, but the Big Book positively encourages us to take advantage of any helpful ideas or services that the medical profession has to offer.
In my early recovery doctors were reluctant to prescribe medications, probably because most of those available were addictive. Our most successful treatment centre, QueenMaryHospital would not allow any medication at all with the exception of those with serious metal illness. In our local fellowship of about 600 I know or have known 4 or 5 such individuals. There was a big issue early in my recovery where some AAs thought they new better than the doctors and they kept telling one of these folks ( a manic depressive) that he would never be sober if he took medication (lithium carbonate I think) So he would stop his meds and chaos would ensue. The end result was always him in a padded cell and it would take weeks to stabilise him.
There are those to that have serious emotional and mental disorders but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest (and unqualified people dont interfere). Incidentally, all of these folks have recovered.
When I asked my friend about his experience with depression what he described was something like a visit to the chamber of horrors, so horrible it bore no resemblance at all to what I blithely called depression. I learned that my depression was really poor mes and was self inflicted. The cure was in the meetings and the steps.
These days however, the medical profession has access to new medications which appear very suitable for alcoholics because they are non addictive, unlike the old meds. Wonderful I think, until I consider how alcoholism works. Think about this, heroine, methamphetamine, nicotine are all highly addictive substances to the general population anyone could become addicted.
Alcohol is not addictive to the general population but is to alcoholics. Cannabis we are told is non addictive, but I know plenty of alcoholic/cannabis addicts. So it seems to me that, for alcoholics of my type, the nature of the substance (addictive on non addictive) is not so much the concern as the function of the substance chemically changing the way we feel. The last time I had non addictive cannabis, I was drinking in seconds, I guess it made me feel I would get away with it, kind of careless.
Two of my non alcoholic friends have experience with modern anti depressants. One told me it stopped him feeling anything and made him careless, even to the extent of being careless about his financial affairs. He had a dreadful time getting off the stuff and it took several attempts. I went to visit the other chap one day and he wanted to give all his stuff away. He offered me his gas set, a very valuable peace of kit. Of course I declined, I could see he was not himself. Both these guys say they lost their edge, that essential little bit of stress that prompts them to do what needs to be done.
So when I hear someone talking about medication in sobriety I think of these two pictures, the four I know who would be dead by now without thier medication, and the others who may lose their edge, become careless, which of course means the steps wont seem quite so important. What sort of sobriety will they get?
Sobriety with meds....I'm not a Doctor...But I have seen people around the Club I go to meetings at and in my HG that are working the program and taking meds. And I'm real glad they are. I believe that given the right medication (by a doctor that knows the situation, knows what he's doing...honest wouldn't hurt either..not one of these clowns like Micheal Jackson had) can put someone right where they need to be. And some people need some help with that. The first time I tried to stop drinking...on my own...I had some serious anxiety problems...Doctor gave me some kind of generic Zanax...I hated the stuff...Stopped taking it and went out and drank another ten years. It took me this program to find out that prayer is the strongest medicine I can take and it puts me right where I need to be. It's free and unlimited...Can't overdose on it...And it's kind of nice to be addicted to it....Go figure.
There are certain givens in my thinking The doctors advice is paramount. It is the responsibility of the alcoholic to be completely honest with the doctor in order that the advice will be appropriate. But then the alcoholic has to be honest with themselves as well and should not be afraid to discuss the issues frankly with the doctor.
When my BF told me about taking the Ambien, I had asked him if he told his doctor how much he drinks. He blew it off and shrugged it as if it wasn't a big deal, just as he always did. :(
Ironically, my ex-husband is, to my belief, a social alcoholic. His entire social life consists of getting out to drink, except for the weekends he has our son. He will however have more parties at his home the weekends my kid is there as opposed to going out. And he has psychological issues. When he takes anti-depressant/anti- medication, he behaves more balanced and kind, relaxed and tries to listen. But he always hits a wall. After a couple months on the meds, he feels "my life is great! I don't need this." and goes off the meds. Then he becomes abusive, manipulative, and scary.
I'm glad you brought this up because it is important. Especially when I look at my BF going down the tubes & how accelerated his alcoholism progressed once the oxi's & Ambien were added to the mix.
I'm not sure I'm in a position to be much of an example as I am still learning, but yes, I agree with the point you are making and I appreciate you putting it out there especially because it will help someone before they end up dually addicted, like my BF.
Great thoughts Mike!
*hugs*
Nicole
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There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting.
I concur that there are those who actually need certain meds to control chemical imbalances in their bodies ... and I feel that based on their previous alcohol/drug use, a doctor's opinion and advice must be part of taking any drug ... AND monitored frequently ... For me, I had a long heavy alcohol use in my history and it took a few months to stabilize my body chemicals after my last drink ... at which time I took myself off all drugs of any kind, with consultation from my doctor ... and now I totally rely on prayer and faith as my 'drug of choice' ... much like 'StepChild' just described ...
But 'Nicole' brings to light an observation that was true for me as is true for her BF ... before I got sober, I took meds along with alcohol carelessly ... many times not remembering whether I had taken any pills or not, and then drinking anyway ... and that can lessen the drugs effects or actually enhance it depending on the drug ... and yes, it can also KILL you ...
I take what Fyne said as representative of the few, as he sited in his own group, who actually need drugs of some kind to help them function normally ... But on the whole, I am still led to believe that MOST of us, after a time being drug and alcohol free, can live totally free of prescription drugs with a strong spiritual conviction to working this program where we develop a complete dependence and faith in God ... I believe that through God, all things are possible ... check out some of the afflictions He healed in the Bible ... But all of this is critical on each individual's belief ... and my faith in doctors lacks a lot to be desired too when I here of the money many of them get from the drug companies to push certain meds ... it's a greedy world out there and money will even make doctors give poor advice for the sake of the dollar ...
So I guess it boils down to 'it's a personal decision' between you and God and your doctor as to whether drugs need to be a part of your daily life or not ... For me, I do like 'StepChild' says he does, I pray a lot and have found I cannot 'overdose' on that ... and the last few years have been the best in memory for me ... by the grace of God ...
Ya'll take care and God Bless, Pappy
-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Friday 25th of November 2011 01:03:46 AM
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Man... my brains were so scrambled, so saturated, with so many parts it that lacked any undamaged roadways to other parts ... that any doctor that would have spent 15 minutes with me would have me diagnosed as being a depressed, hypomanic, anxiety ridden, poor reality testing, delusional, paranoid schizo, with a personality disorder, nothing border line about it! And I would have been given a wide variety of mediations to treat every one of the symtoms of being a person with a "peculiar mental twist" that reflected frequent "mental blank spots". LOL (Yes, they talk about me in the Big Book, like I would never read it and know they were talking shit about me!)
What I have found over the years, is that I did need to be placed on an anti-depressant for the first 2 1/2 years, because I was so mentally flatlined that without them I would not have been able to stay sober long enough to work this program for any length of time with any consistency.
I drank to change the way I felt, and there was not much chance of me staying sober feeling the way I was... sober and hopeless.
I was under the care of an addiction specialist, who not only put me on the medication but also had a medication exit strategy/plan in place of when and how the meds would be removed... before ever placing me on them. It literally took 18 months before I was someone who could be truly evaluated for any psychological disorders that were not a by product of 20 years of drinking and drugging.
Yes, I suffered from a psychosis, self inflicted. A psychosis means there is a distorted pereception of reality, and when I drank and drugged the way I did, for as long as I did, of course I had a distorted pereception of reality! I was insane! It took over a year of continuous sobriety before i started to move into the arena of simply being crazy, which was an upgrade from insane. The difference being... crazy people know something ain't right, insane people don't think any thing is wrong! LOL
I will often recommend that someone needs to see a professional for help because what they are dealing with is outside the scope of my personal expertise, or possibly have what they are taking re evaluated for its effectiveness, but I will never be one to tell someone to run and get on a bunch of meds, nor will I tell someone to stop taking theirs. I can only share what I went through.
When I first saw this doc, I was asked... "can you ever imagine being sober and happy at the same time? My reply was a straight forward, honest..."NO".
When I was taken off the meds I was again asked the same question and my reply was a straight forward, honest..."Absolutely!"
An expert told me, when talking about my prospect who drank and threw away his meds, that psychosis was the certain result, hence the suicidal behaviour. The meds he was on were the type that take a few weeks to work, and he stayed sober for those weeks. What puzzles me was how did he manage that if he had a mental illness that required medication in order to stay sober? One day at a time perhaps? What ever was going on he didn't get the message and drank again, as alcoholics do, after the meds kicked in. And then the other complications became apparent. I understand all John has written above but I am unable to describe my own mental state, when I arrived, in such a lucid way. I have it on good authority that I was quite mad, delusional in fact, thought I knew everything when in fact I knew absolutely nothing. I had the mind and emotional development of a 12 year old. But somehow I had the insight to know that I had to grow through this without mind altering chemicals. I remebered the smack I got from one puff of cannibis a year before. There were some more extreme people around at the time, as I recall, with drug addiction backgrounds who would never take any medication under any circumstance. One of them had his appendix removed without aneasthetic. I never felt like that. If I have a tooth ache I will take a pain killer. Where I would run into problems would be if I took pain killers in anticipation of one day having a tooth ache. The other thing that worries me is the claim that some of these meds are non addictive. That doesn exactly fill me with confidence as we alcoholics can get into trouble with all sorts of non addictive substances and behaviours. It would be safer to add the rider "to the general population". To them alcohol, cannabis, food, gambling etc etc are not addictive. John also mentioned a definite plan in such a treatment regime which makes excellent sense. It included why we need this, how long for and when we will stop. These would be great questions to ask a doctor. These things are supposed to be temporary but in our fellowship we have a member who also works in the field who is attempting to come off SSRIs after 15 years. We are all praying for him. There was a passage in the book which I can't seem to find at the moment but it says somehting along the lines of... as we straighten out our spiritual side, our mental and emotional problems seem to clear up also. In my case the miserable anxiety ridden phase (call it mild withdrawals) lasted about as long as it would take one of the modern meds to begin working. I was attempting the 90 & 90, and part way through the fog began to clear and I began to want to stay sober because it looked attractive, not out of fear. Life took on new meaning. I was still mad of course, but working through the steps was fixing my spirtual malady which in turn lead to improvements in my mental and emotional state Part of the latter was plain growing up.
Hi Mike! I fully understand the conflict that we are faced with on the road of recovery when it comes to what does and doesn't, who should and shouldn't require the coupling of a medical solution to a spiritual problem.
I have to turn a lot over to the care of God. The path someone else is on, the wisdom of the medical professional, the healing process of my own condition...
I am not ashamed that I have had to take any medications. I am proud that I didn't let the AA nazi's of my time, sell me the bill of goods that AA and the 12 Steps were the fix all for every problem I have faced along the way. If I had, I must likely would not be here with 30 days short of 22 years of continuous sobriety, in fact I don't venture to believe I would be on top of the dirt any longer.
I do fully agree that most seemingly mental and emotional related "issues" will resolve themselves as a person experiences the peace of God, and lives in a world of faith ('thy faith hast made thee whole"). I am however reluctant to suggest that this is something that the alcoholic can expect to experience if they can't stay sober long enough to experience it. For some each relapse only places them further away from being able to grasp the true sense of faith, hope, and spiritual light that makes it possible. Some of us go to such a dark place that they can no longer see any u-turns to be made. They go to the "bitter end". Recently, like within the past two months, there was a man here that had slept in my personal home at one time, who had been in the program for over 5 years and truly lacked the ability to gain more than 5 months of sobriety in a stretch. He was on meds, and as soon as he started feeling better, having taken them and worked the steps, he would stop taking the meds under the impression he didn't need them any more. Well, the last time this avenue was pursued, about two months ago as stated above, people in a McDonald's, and across the street at a KFC watched him get out of his car at a major intersection, stand beside the road watching traffic, and suddenly step out in front of a fast moving truck. He was pronounced dead at the scene. He was not drunk!!
I speak at meetings, conventions and conferences fairly regularly and I always say that if what I say cannot be conincided with the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, you are welcome to discard it, because its my own message, not THE message.
Having said that, let's look at the first two paragraphs of How It Works.
RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. ("Rarely" indicates that we have seen some do all the traditional AA work and still drink and/or die drunk) Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. (.."usually" indicates this is not always the case) There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. (.."many" of them.." indicates that some do not recover, even though they have the capacity to be honest)
Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided that you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it (.."any length"...indicates that we might have to seek outside help and be properly medicated in order to "get it") - then you are ready to take certain steps.
When I am not willing or discouraged by the AA hardliners to pursue every available avenue to attempt to maintain my sobriey, I believe I may be cheating myself out of the experience, and thus placing myself on death row.
We get a daily "reprieve" contingent upon the maintenance of our spiritual condition. In the judicial system the word "reprieve" is used as a means to define a postponement of that death sentence.
Yours in the spirit of healing, learning, growing and recovering,
John
PS. I too came into the program with a mental and emotional center of about a 14 year old (at the age of 31), and I don't believe I gained a full year of development for each year I have stayed sober, some years I grew by leaps and bounds, others I barely grew at all, but on the whole, I believe in 22 years I have gained about 15 years of mental and emotion of development. So, that being the case, 14+15 is 29! I am still pretty immature for someone who is 52 in chronological years. :)
-- Edited by John on Friday 25th of November 2011 09:21:12 AM
John, our experiences, pre sobriety and post, are/were very similar. I probably should have been on some meds as I was severely depressed for the first 6 months. I literally sat in the corner of meetings shaking and sweating with anxiety for at least the first 120 days. I was in shock from quitting drinking, drugs, smoking, and separation from my wife and 2 year old. On top of that I went on a crash diet to lose 25 lbs. I was a wreck. But, I did make it without the help of meds. I wasn't suicidal, but was on one hell of a rollar coaster ride, delussional, paranoid, and mad as hell. Some how I was functional to do construction work daily, but I carried a pistol on the floor of my car and had thoughts of blowing my x and her new boy friend away, along with her parents. I was insane, and only my higher power kept me from doing them in. Mike H. I fully understand your opinion, and it was my opinion for awhile aswell, but you need to look at the big picture and risks involved of playing AA doctor. It's not worth it.
...but I carried a pistol on the floor of my car and had thoughts of blowing my x and her new boy friend away, along with her parents. I was insane, and only my higher power kept me from doing them in...
oh Dean! How I can so relate to that statement! I went through it rather recently for a good while, and can't really say I'm completely clear of it now, but I am grateful I don't own a gun, or as a felon have the ability to get one easily. My HP is saving their lives, not me... that's for sure!
To my knowledge there arn't any medications that heal a broken heart... otherwise I would have been looking to get a bunch of them! I am so grateful that this program taught me that I don't have to act on my almighty thoughts and feelings. Thinking about something is no longer a decision. As long as I don't cross that line, every one stays safe. :)
That's what I love about this program and this web site and others like it ... We all have the same disease yet we have varying degrees of the illness and have come to where we are by different paths ... And most importantly, we all have the same common goal ... to live life sober and to participate in life in such a way that we feel useful, happy, and content ...
Meds or No-Meds? ... Like the 1st step, only we can decide ... My only hope is that we are in a position to be 'totally honest' with ourselves in making the decision ... If not now, then some day very soon ... But know this, my wish is for the individual to give faith, hope, and love of God a chance to perform the miracles only He is capable of ...
Take Care and God Bless, Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Having said that, let's look at the first two paragraphs of How It Works.
RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. ("Rarely" indicates that we have seen some do all the traditional AA work and still drink and/or die drunk) Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. (.."usually" indicates this is not always the case) There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. (.."many" of them.." indicates that some do not recover, even though they have the capacity to be honest)
Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided that you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it (.."any length"...indicates that we might have to seek outside help and be properly medicated in order to "get it") - then you are ready to take certain steps.
I heard that Bill W.'s biggest regret about writing this book was that he didn't use the word "Never". As far as Any lengths goes...I took that as another shot at how much "Honesty" plays a role in taking these steps correctly. Dr Bob wasn't afraid to use it....
If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book, I feel sorry for you. If you still think you are strong enough to beat the game alone, that is your affair. But if you really and truly want to quit drinking liquor for good and all, and sincerely feel that you must have some help, we know that we have an answer for you. It never fails, if you go about it with one half the zeal you have been in the habit of showing when you were getting another drink. Your Heavenly Father will never let you down!
I have depression and I have alcholism. There are many articles on primary vs. secondary depression for addicts and alcoholics. Most of the ignorant comments (and I don't see any made here thankfully) seem to come from people that do not know the diffference. People come into AA often with clinical depression. It could be they might benefit from a short round of antidepressants but their depression is primarily a product of their substance abuse and the damage that the substance abuse created. Medication is not a long term answer for these folks.
THEN...there is primary depression (or whatever other mental health problem). In this instance the substance abuse is way more likely to be tied to self-medicating and the depression can and will subsist well into sobriety if not treated. The depression (or bipolar or whatever) may have predated the substance abuse and it stands alone. For that, meds are generally the answer, or at least part of it.
Having had like 4 major depressive episodes and having suffered so immensely trying to "go off" my meds, I have FINALLY come to accept that I simply need these anti-depressants prophylactically to prevent more depressive episodes where I get stuck to the bed...my head literally hurts...and the world turns into the most dismal place imaginable. That happens to me in absense of alcohol. That started happening to me in my teens before I even started drinking in a destructive fashion. Hence, my depression is Primary. It needs meds. That is just a fact. Not getting confused about this greatly aids my recovery cuz I might turn to alcohol for some screwy form of "relief" if I didn't know better. I have tried that before...it worked for a bit...but was way worse in the long run. I still HATE having to see a psychiatrist. I am a therapist and was in training for that before I had to go on meds for depression. I do not like taking these sucky depression meds - but I have to. I need to guard against depression relapse very similar to how I guard against alcohol relapse. I cannot bury my head and stop seeing the doctor or stop my meds. I tried that and paid the price too many times (same as I did with alcohol).
Do I feel like the meds rob me of my "edge?" Sometimes, but not usually. Knowing what the alternative is, I'm good with the meds :) I am deeply spiritual, have good life, am stable, physically fit, and help others for a profession. I quit smoking...lost weight...At the moment I have a good relationship with my partner. I have done a lot of things that I hear other "not depressed" people in meetings struggling with.
What kind of sobriety do I have? I think it's great. I hope others who might have depression or bipolar disorder read this and see that AA works for all of us and sobriety can ONLY make us a better version of ourselves regardless of what other problems, disorders, or illnesses we bring with us into the rooms.
Mark
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
I have depression and I have alcholism. There are many articles on primary vs. secondary depression for addicts and alcoholics. Most of the ignorant comments (and I don't see any made here thankfully) seem to come from people that do not know the diffference. People come into AA often with clinical depression. It could be they might benefit from a short round of antidepressants but their depression is primarily a product of their substance abuse and the damage that the substance abuse created. Medication is not a long term answer for these folks.
THEN...there is primary depression (or whatever other mental health problem). In this instance the substance abuse is way more likely to be tied to self-medicating and the depression can and will subsist well into sobriety if not treated. The depression (or bipolar or whatever) may have predated the substance abuse and it stands alone. For that, meds are generally the answer, or at least part of it.
Having had like 4 major depressive episodes and having suffered so immensely trying to "go off" my meds, I have FINALLY come to accept that I simply need these anti-depressants prophylactically to prevent more depressive episodes where I get stuck to the bed...my head literally hurts...and the world turns into the most dismal place imaginable. That happens to me in absense of alcohol. That started happening to me in my teens before I even started drinking in a destructive fashion. Hence, my depression is Primary. It needs meds. That is just a fact. Not getting confused about this greatly aids my recovery cuz I might turn to alcohol for some screwy form of "relief" if I didn't know better. I have tried that before...it worked for a bit...but was way worse in the long run. I still HATE having to see a psychiatrist. I am a therapist and was in training for that before I had to go on meds for depression. I do not like taking these sucky depression meds - but I have to. I need to guard against depression relapse very similar to how I guard against alcohol relapse. I cannot bury my head and stop seeing the doctor or stop my meds. I tried that and paid the price too many times (same as I did with alcohol).
Do I feel like the meds rob me of my "edge?" Sometimes, but not usually. Knowing what the alternative is, I'm good with the meds :) I am deeply spiritual, have good life, am stable, physically fit, and help others for a profession. I quit smoking...lost weight...At the moment I have a good relationship with my partner. I have done a lot of things that I hear other "not depressed" people in meetings struggling with.
What kind of sobriety do I have? I think it's great. I hope others who might have depression or bipolar disorder read this and see that AA works for all of us and sobriety can ONLY make us a better version of ourselves regardless of what other problems, disorders, or illnesses we bring with us into the rooms.
Mark
Thanks Mark I learned a lot from your post. I guess I was in the clinical depression category and it became much less of an issue once I stopped filling up on the depressant - alcohol. Your description of the primary disorder is enlightening. I now understand what is meant by self medicating, a term I never related to personally because alcoholism is my primary issue.
As I mentioned earlier, all of my friends that have primary disorders have recovered successfully with the help of their medication.
From Mark and John, if I have understood correctly, I have learnt that in some instances a well managed (managed by a doctor) course of medication with a specific objective in mind can also be beneficial to recovery.
Where there seems to be a certain amount of risk, again if I am understanding correctly, is where a more casual approach is taken. It seems with some meds sudden cessation can bring on suicidal behaviour ( this has been reported in the news here among the general population) and if an alcoholic stops meds suddenly, or drinks and stops meds as my prospect did, the consequences can be serious indeed. So would I be right in thinking that if the clinically depressed person at the lower end of the scale decides they want to drop their meds, then they should be encouraged to work through that process with close medical supervision, rather than just casually chuck them away?
And given the risks, (referring to low level secondary disorders) is there a point at which there is no net benefit to taking them in the first place?
God bless,
Mike h.
-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Friday 25th of November 2011 08:37:54 PM
-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Friday 25th of November 2011 08:51:56 PM
-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Friday 25th of November 2011 08:54:29 PM
Abruptly stopping some psychotropics can be dangerous. They put some people on meds to lessen the pain and discomfort of detox. Ideally, those people will be weaned off the meds by the time they are out of rehab. Some meds can just be stopped if the person is having bad side effects and they were on a starting dose to begin with. It's way safer to consult with a doctor, but most of the inserts for the meds will say if you experience (insert severe side effect) stop taking or consult your doctor.
It's risky to just stop too because you can't be 100 percent sure if a mental disorder is really secondary or primary until you see how the person does for a while without the drugs or alcohol. I can say for me, that getting sober also improved my mood functioning, but not to the point that I don't need meds. I wish that was the case. I am able to take half the meds I used to because they actually work now whereas they did not work right with tons of added depressant thrown in the picture.
There is no point to taking meds (in my opinion) if it is totally clear that the dysphoria and mood problems are completely in line with what one would expect from dealing with stressors of early sobriety. I am not a doctor though so I can't make that call. I do think they put too many people on meds in rehabs. Some people may not have a recurrent mental health problem but the detox and getting sober will throw them into a psychosis or a serious depression and that is able to be aided by meds. Also if a person doesn't sleep for days on end while coming off drugs or alcohol, eventually some sort of non-habit forming sedative is probably going to help them more than hurt.
As with everything medical, being a smart consumer is best. Following doctors orders...but making sure the doctor's orders make sense to you.
I think the bigger risk with meds for us is when we are prescribed painkillers. I have not seen many folks taken out by psych meds, but I have seen MANY alcholics go out on pain pills.
Mark
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Also, because my depression is primary does not mean that my alcholism did not and does not have a life of it's own. It passed over a threshhold in which I became totally addicted and dependent on alcohol. I cant say that my alcoholism goes away when I take my anti-depresants. It doesn't work that way. I would drink to self medicate depression, but I drank for other reasons too and eventually I just drank because I was an alcoholic.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Thanks for those wonderful posts Mark, they have helped my understanding enormously. Interesting what you say about pain killers. I haven't any experience there either but I have noticed that when I was drinking I seemed to have a high tolerence for pain killers and they never seemed to work where as these days a couple of aspirins will take care of quite serious pain like tooth ache. I find these days that many newcomers I would work with often have some other issues like drugs. Being a pure alcoholic (an oxymoron if ever there was one) I am lost when they start talking about benzos (that's one that came up recently) and other terms and names of medications, I just haven't a clue. I tread very carefully in this area.
I too enjoyed and got a good piece of information from your share Mark. I think we are best to stick to what we know, which is alcoholism and let the medical community do what they know... maybe together more alcoholics will find a sober life worth living and have the ability to maintain it.
I was always one of the people who secretly felt that those suffering from depression just needed to do a better job of applying working the steps/program.
Got sober at 24 and for 16 years was never depressed. Then I started getting some bouts of depression, they began lasting longer, still nothing I couldn't handle.
One year later I was in almost complete constant depression, looking forward to nothing, lost interest in everything, very hard to work a full day and concentrate on anything. I tried everything to shake loose from it, more excercise, meetings, got more active, more dilegent prayer and meditation, tried to help more drunks, went to the 1/2 way houses, treatment centers etc to try to get out of myself but nothing worked anymore.
I Finally got Psyc. help about 9 years ago and I was told I had sever depression, they gave me Wellbutrin, the same drug as Zyban the stuff they give those want to stop smoking, you get no immediate effect from it, but once it built up in my system after a week or I started to feel like myself again.
I now know that depression is a real thing and was a hellish experience for 1.5 years, but the meds saved my life. I know there are meds that turn people somewhat zombie. I'm not a Doc, but I guess if the side effects are bad to them then maybe they need to ask the Doc about trying something else, cut the dose or maybe take the stuff before bedtime.
Too bad for Bill W. that the medical advances we have today where not available for him as he struggled horribly with depression also.
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
... I wasn't suicidal, but was on one hell of a rollar coaster ride, delussional, paranoid, and mad as hell...
Hi Dean, I surely appreciate the fact that you were able to pull through without the use of any meds, and was able to acheive a full, lasting sobriety. I do believe that the majority can pull through most of the outside issues that they are inflicted with mentally and emotionally if they just stay sober long enough and start moving through the steps.
I unfortunately, was suicidal, there was not much of a roller coaster ride to it, I just went further and further down, with no up side to the ride at all. I, like Mike, was suffering from severe clinical depression long before I ever took that first drink, and when it was able to come up for air, as I put the alcohol down... it literally paralized me. I felt more hopeless, sober without a drink then I ever felt with a drink. Drinking was taken off my mental list of options, (as if that can really be done with a true alcoholic) but suicide stayed on the list, until the depression was treated as a separate enity as a primary mental health issue. If I had not gotten the help when I did, from the source(s) I got it from, I truly do not believe I would have lived very long. I might have died sober, but I would not have lasted any longer than most who are chronic alcohol relapsers. A few months at best.
Keep in mind that I spent 7 years going through the revolving door, not able to stay sober prior to getting this outside help. Getting it helped me stay sober long enough to finally feel that sense of peace, feel the presence of God, and develope a true sense of hope and faith. For me, this was the recipe or launch pad of true sobriety, and by the Grace of God, I have not had to have a drink since.
Do I still take medication for depression. Yes, I have to dip into it about 2 times a year, for 15 -30 days, until I feel the down hill spiral start to move into an upward direction again. Otherwise, I would probably be able to stay sober, but not happy on a ride that keeps going down hill, with no hope of it coming to the up hill track on its own accord.
As I heard it said in early recovery, Pain in life is a given, misery is optional.
