This is the question I have been asking myself since my home group meeting last night. It is chaired by one of the strongest and most passionate members of our local AA community. He shared that one of the things he was taught is that not everyone who attends AA meetings belongs there, that there are some who would benefit from attending another 12 step program more. His analogy was that if you put 90 people in a room for 30 days and gave them all herion, they would all come out herion addicts. But put the same 90 people in a room for 30 days with alcohol, and about 6 of them would truly be alcoholics, the other 84 would be clamoring to get out.
There are folks who identify themselves as alcoholics, addict alcoholics, alcoholic addicts, cross addicted alcoholics, or some only as addicts in my home group, an AA program. The meetings are open meetings. The anaolgy and statement the chair made opened a passionate and heated debate, with many viewpoints. It also opened a debate in my mind, as I am one who has problems with multiple substances, one of them being alcohol.
I have attended meetings of both AA and NA, and AA was working best for me at this time. I know I have to decide for myself where I belong, which 12 step program best allows me a successful path to recovery. Perhaps for me it will be both. I was just wondering if any of the folks on this board have any opinion on this: Do people who have problems with addiction to substances (talking substances only, no other addictions) belong/benefit from an AA program?
One of the opinions voiced was that if AA "waters down" it's program to include addicts, it will lose it's ability to help the alcoholic.
Regardless of the program, both of the books make clear that we need a Higher Power, one greater than ourselves to help us gain sobriety and achieve long term recovery. So I have handed this over to my HP, asking for guidance and direction.
Just seeking a bit of feedback here. Thanks for reading this long post and Peace.
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I asked God for all things that I may enjoy life. He gave me life so that I may enjoy all things.
You belong wherever you feel most comfortable and if people have a problem with it. It's THIER problem. Times do change and nowadays most people coming into AA do have other addictions. Anyone who thinks he or she may have a problem with alcohol is welcome in AA. Most discussion and topics do deal with alcohol primarily...so when telling our stories, we refine them mostly to alcohol, but I have found that only very very oldtimers really care about periodic references to "other substances." If you want to talk all about issues pertaining to meth or cocaine or whatever, then NA is more appropriate. Otherwise, I know many many many folks that really seemed to have more primary problems with drugs, but stay in AA just because that is where they feel like they belong and what helps them stay sober the most. I personally am glad for them.
Mark
-- Edited by pinkchip on Sunday 31st of July 2011 05:09:15 PM
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Theres a small AA group I go to and theres a woman there that is not an alcoholic but said in NA she found the problem in AA she found the answer so she prefers coming to our small group and we all accept her and treat her equal. I suggest trying many different meetings, I am sure you will find a few that you feel comfortable at!
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God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.
Our experience here on the East Coast of the Big Island is very near Sober Steve's share. We have a mixture...a good mixture and consistent mixture and they are all growing in recovery. My sponsor told me to find and use whatever I could find to gain and maintain my sobriety/serenity/recovery; and I have. I give that samething away to others in recovery here because it is recovery that is desired. If it is working for you keep working it and also looking around with an open mind for other support. It's okay if you keep in mind that the very very first thing you need to do is don't drink and or use at all. If you return to drinking and using the question of where do I belong is moot.
Keep coming back here also...Your post are supportive. ((((hugs))))
Also, everyone who comes to a particular AA meeting evidently does need to be there because "Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God's world by mistake." If one truly believes this part of acceptance is the answer, then it holds true that we need to accept that everyone who IS at a meeting belongs there and not worry about the next meeting, future meetings, and who "should be" at meetings. Spending time talking about that stuff instead of recovery is what waters down a meeting. Though like most alcoholics, I often get sidetracked and convinced that I am sharing some piece of wisdom that is "AA standard opinion" when in fact it is not so I'm not necessarily flaming people who make the same mistake.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
I'm a person with addictive disease that includes substances other than just alcohol. But I respect the AA positions on primary purpose and confining discussions to the subject of alcohol. Especially in CLOSED meetings. For me, I try to avoid too much of the drink-a-log and/or drug-a-log anyway. I try to keep my focus on the part that says we share in a GENERAL way, what happened, what it was like, and what it is like now. I can do that without ever naming the substance provoking the feelings, thoughts, behaviors, and consequences of whatever I ingested. Straight-up, pure alcoholics are going by the wayside as our entire culture changes and younger people come in to "the rooms". Just as an influx of addicts can be kinda "threatening" to the stability of AA meetings, we're now seeing an influx in NA of people on MAT (medication (usually methadone or Subuxone) assisted treatment) and the whole argument of "who belongs" is rearing it's ugly head there...for me, I'm gonna go where I get what I need and I can give what I got.
If you are an alcoholic, you belong at AA, even if you had other addictions and other problems, if you are -not- an alcoholic, you are welcome to be a visitor at open meetings and listen
AA can't be all things to all people, the primary purpose is there for a reason, as are The Traditions, regardless of what new people think, without them AA wouldn't be there for -anybody-
This is actually not subject to negotiation, it is, as on we can discuss this here until we are blue in the face, but bottom line, AA is for alcoholics, that's why it is called -ALCOHOLICS- Anonymous and not "anyone who feels like they have a problem anonymous" there are Traditions that address this, and not just the short form 3 that people take out of context, there are 12 traditions, the first of which is the group comes first
any 3 -ALCOHOLICS- can start a meeting of AA provided there is no outside affiliation, no alcoholics? non Alcoholics? it's not AA, it's something different
I used to be in the camp that held non-alcoholics should be allowed to be members until I saw what happens, one answer becomes many answers, become -no answer-
Alcoholic? -you belong-
Non Alcoholic? welcome to open meetings, feel free to sit and listen
I was/am a "garbage can alcoholic" as I used ANYTHING including sex, but bottom line, I am an alcoholic, therefore a member
If you are not sure if you are an alcoholic, sit down with a "real" alcoholic who has done the steps out of the book and go over the first 43 pages to see if you "qualify" as an alcoholic, I bet you will but it's best to remove all doubt, the sad and horrible thing is we have people come in that are NOT alcoholics, that do NOT "qualify" with the first 43 pages begin to sponsor -real- alcoholics, which is no different then treating the alcoholism with a placebo, if you had cancer or had a family member with cancer, would you want that person treated by a quack with a placebo?
I wouldn't
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
A short visit to Tradition 1 regarding AA Unity might clear this up.
Also the 1987 General Service Org. (that's AA as a whole) has something to say about this: it's printed on a blue card and read at the start of a lot of meetings.
My ,02
Sometimes the things that "only very, very oldtimers worry about" are how they got to be very, very oldtimers. And had an organization there to be part of during that very long time, and did service work (cause I don't know anybody who is a very, very oldtimer that hasn't done service worik)
Don't want to do the steps? Don't want to follow traditions? Want to do things that effect AA as a whole and break tradition?
C'est la vie.
Ever wonder WHY NA and CA and other 12 step programs aren't as vibrant as AA? And why AA isn't doing so well now a days?
It's kind of oxymoronic but I am a "pure" alcoholic. Through the steps I have something to offer others suffering from alcoholism and that is the extent of my usefulness. I have no idea about other addictions which is why I have never had the urge to attend NA meetings, I just don't belong and don't understand. But I do know that I am responsible when anytone anywhere reaches out for help I want the hand of AA always to be there and for that I am responsible. That means accepting the traditions as well as the steps. Trad 3 is clear, long form in its wording (all who suffer from alcoholism) and short form in its implication(stop drinking) absolutely regardless of any other issues. So as long as alcoholism is there, no problem.
It's very common perhaps even the norm these days for alcoholics to have problems with other substances and it's up to them which fellowships they belong to. In this thread the comment is made about going where you can get the most out or where you are most comfortable. I am not sure if this is the right way to look at it. I have always found that it works better if I think about what I can contribute because it is exactly that which will determine what I get out of it. Perhaps thinking about what you can contribute in the way of helping others, bearing in mind Linbaba's placebo, might make clearer which should be your primary fellowship. Would you be better equipped to help an alcoholic or would you be more use with other substances?
Your question about people who are addicts but not alcoholics benefitting from attending AA can be answered as follows: 1) The non-alcoholic cannot help an alcoholic so will not get full satisfaction and meaning from AA 2) The alcoholic that the non alcoholic tries to help will not relate and may be deprived of their chance of recovery 3) The fellowship that the non-alcoholic should attend needs them, and is deprived of the contribution that person could have made. 4) The fellow sufferer of the non-alcoholic may be deprived of their chance at recovery because the non-alcoholic was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
For me I respect the house Im in.I have a sponsor,I live the steps,I show up at meetings ,I give back to the best of my ability,I do service and work toward our primary purpose,to serve God and others,selfless,not selfish..A.A'S success comes from its focus on "one" purpose for alcoholics other 12 steps focus on their purpose,,for E.G. NA focuses on the "disease of addiction" not any specific drug. A.A. DOES NOT BELIEVE"ADDICTION IS A DISEASE,ITS A SYMPTOM OF.TWO VERY COMPLETE DIFFERENT SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT..NA includes alcohol as a drug,there is no "drug of choice" it is addiction that is focused on. AA focuses on alcohol..Recovery depends on unity for both fellowships,as I said before ,I attend very few meetings in AA where people don't share as 'ANDAS" alcoholic and drug addict..It is the responsibilty of the group,in a loving and caring manner to address each issue,sharing clean in AA and sober in NA (see traditions,but not as AA/NA police but as representatives of the fellowship you are in....),and same for other 12 steps .If you are an addict or an alcoholic,you can state your name and say you are deeply in bedded in the 3rd tradition and then >with an honest,open and willing heart look into what is entailed in the readings of each fellowship,I also am a member of Nar-Anon,similar to Al-Anon,no implied endorsement(though this is a forum not the rooms) ,for my 25 year old son who is in recovery from Heroin addiction,and they also follow the 12 steps,only requirement family member or friend in addiction.So for me,I continue to do my work ,reach out to others ,IN GODS direction and guidance and stay free from active addiction ,a day at a time for over 26 and a half years.PERSONAL RECOVERY DEPENDS UPON UNITY .RESPECT THE HOUSE YOUR IN,SHARE ACCORDINGLY ,NOT TO SEND A DILUTED MESSAGE AND SEE YOUR SPONSOR:)
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Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
I believe AA is doing fine and that is because the traditions allow for flexibility. People that get attitudes over those that have other drug addictions as well alcoholism are much more likely to be the demise of AA. I do generally believe oldtimers are to be venerated in AA but this is not always the case. There are some that, like many older people in general, fall into the category of being so afraid of change and not being able to identify with young people that they become crotchety, judgmental, and unwelcoming. Many of those very old timers also smoked pot for much of their sobriety too if you ask them...so the influx of some addict/alcholics in AA has added clarity on what sobriety is generally considered to be. Thankfully, this small subset of people who will say you don't belong in AA if you have this or that or are not just like me are not the majority and more people are aware of the fact that "the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking." The responsibility declaration states that I am responsible to be the hand of AA when it is needed. It seems some folks are making up a clause that reads "I am responsible for doing an assessment that I am not qualified to do so that I can see if I want to extend my hand or not."
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
If you are an alcoholic regardless of your other addictions, you can be a member of AA
If you are -not- an alcoholic regardless of your other addictions you can be a visitor at open meetings, (since closed meeting specifically say, -alcoholics only-, and that's why they have them)
If someone goes through the first 43 pages and is able to identify as an alcoholic, they can be a member, THEY decide if they are an alcoholic or not, therefore if they qualify to be a member
I reiterate, it's -Alcoholics Anonymous- not -allthingstoallpeople Anonymous-
truly nothing could be more simple, regardless of who ignores The Traditions and decides they are "outdated" and only to be sneered at as a crutch used by "crotchety old timers", ignoring the facts doesn't change them
A 'No' uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a 'Yes' merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble. Mohandas Gandhi
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. Mohandas Gandhi
-- Edited by LinBaba on Monday 1st of August 2011 11:39:26 AM
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
"older people in general, fall into the category of being so afraid of change and not being able to identify with young people that they become crotchety, judgmental, and unwelcoming."
And that's why it's OK to judge, dismiss and disparage them.
"Many of those very old timers also smoked pot for much of their sobriety too"
Besides, they were probably smoking dope the whole time. No need to take them seriously. They probably aren't really fully human either.
Jesus Wept. Seriously.
BTW - Real AA 75-95% Recovery from Alcohol Addiction Watered down BS imitation AA 5-20% Recovery from Alcohol Addiction
So the assessment that AA is "doing fine" is true for a given value of "fine". The offices in New York are doing well, AA publishes at steady rate, there are lots of meetings, and most importantly I am sober.
If you are drunk, or new or hurting a 80 to 95% fail rate might not look so "fine".
YMMV
As AA is non-professional every member that has done all 12 steps, in order as writen IS QUALIFIED to pass along the message and the program of AA
I came to AA as a pure alcoholic. I was a pot smoker in my youth, but never to the same level as some of my cohorts. I really didn't like it, I had to drink more to get rid of the paranoia.... once my pot-smoking (and pot-obtaining) friends drifted away, I just stuck to alcohol. I think in the final 10 years of my drinking, I smoked pot maybe a grand total of 5 times. Or a ratio of about 3000 beers to one joint... LOL. My marijuana sobriety date actually predates my alcohol sobriety date by at least 6 months.
I realize that pure alcoholics may no longer be in the majority at AA meetings, although I really don't know.
My recent experience taking Rx pain pills - for a grand total of a week, as directed or less - showed me just how fast I could become a drug addict. I don't know if that is due to the power of the drug, my own addictive tendencies, or both. Probably both. And should I find myself in the situation again, I'll do what I did before... I'll tell on myself and go to meetings, take as directed, and only as long as absolutely necessary.
Barisax
-- Edited by barisax on Monday 1st of August 2011 03:09:35 PM
Okay. Guess I'm wrong again. And now I'm sneering at the traditions? No. I was championing them. Why are you quoting me and talking down to me when I'm agreeing with you? Geez.
And Besides... Lin and Rainspa - You 2 are the most judgmental folks on here along with me. I still respect most of what you have to say though. If anything, Jesus is weeping for all 3 of us. Especially the way the 2 of you all harrass and judge someone like Tipsy. Even on the 1 percent chance he is serious this time or capable and willing to receive the AA message, you two have already slammed the door in his face.
After 3 years on a site, I wouldn't think Character assassination would be something I would see from you guys but whatever. Really glad you are here too.
Mark
-- Edited by pinkchip on Monday 1st of August 2011 09:13:00 PM
-- Edited by pinkchip on Monday 1st of August 2011 09:55:01 PM
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
If you are an alcoholic regardless of your other addictions, you can be a member of AA
If you are -not- an alcoholic regardless of your other addictions you can be a visitor at open meetings, (since closed meeting specifically say, -alcoholics only-, and that's why they have them)
If someone goes through the first 43 pages and is able to identify as an alcoholic, they can be a member, THEY decide if they are an alcoholic or not, therefore if they qualify to be a member
I reiterate, it's -Alcoholics Anonymous- not -allthingstoallpeople Anonymous-
truly nothing could be more simple, regardless of who ignores The Traditions and decides they are "outdated" and only to be sneered at as a crutch used by "crotchety old timers", ignoring the facts doesn't change them
A 'No' uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a 'Yes' merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble. Mohandas Gandhi
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. Mohandas Gandhi
I don't see any "character assasination" in this post, and if it was taken that way, I am sorry your feelings were hurt
I do see character assasination in this post
pinkchip wrote:There are some that, like many older people in general, fall into the category of being so afraid of change and not being able to identify with young people that they become crotchety, judgmental, and unwelcoming.
It seems some folks are making up a clause that reads "I am responsible for doing an assessment that I am not qualified to do so that I can see if I want to extend my hand or not."
Read Tipsy's posts carefully, they were worded very carefully to "stir the pot", he DEMANDED that God make him Sober? no one DEMANDS anything from God, he is trying to be controversial, period, I think he's pretty funny personally, and were his BS on my FB page I'd be howling, here it is not appropriate, but it's funnier because of all the people he gets riled up or wanting to pet him on his little head to help, he's no dummy that kid, incredibly intelligent, and very very funny...just be funny somewhere else, this is life and death to some people, especially newcomers
Just because people try to explain and pass on the traditions, doesn't make them "crotchety, judgemental, and unwelcoming" and to view them that way is incredibly disrespectful and judgemental not to mention condescending, these people are trying to save the Program that saved both of your lives, to pass on those Traditions that protect this Fellowship, each of which was an incredibly painfully learned lesson, some of them by observing groups like The Washingtonions, in it's day as big as AA which "went under" because they didn't stick to a "primary purpose", they started allowing things other then not drinking in and where is that program toady and why has no one ever even heard of them, they had 300,000 members and were growing rapidly, so to refer to them (people who feel the traditions are important), and us, in this condescending manner is the character assasination, and yes, someone properly armed with the facts and a good working knowledge can sit down with someone else and within three hours make an assessment on whether someone is an alcoholic or not, to say they are "unqualified" is also a sweeping general statement that is judgemental and arrogant and condescending, and frankly based on total ignorance of our history and our traditions, what they are, why they are, what they mean, and how they came to be, and why they are so important.
No one, or I should say "I" didn't "talk down" to you, I responded to your sweeping generalization that "old timers" that championed the Traditions were "crotchety, judgmental, and unwelcoming." to use your own words
If you find yourself in conflict with a number of people, such as myself, John, Rainspa, or whoever, there is a common denominator, I look to myself when that happens, even if I am "right" when I am suddenly in conflict with a number of people, I am doing -something- wrong and I need to take my inventory, and yes, us old crotchety judgemental unwelcoming old fux still continue to take our own inventories when we find ourselves in conflict with everyone around us, being alcoholic, we are frequently wrong, sensitive, and none too bright, so we all doing the best we can Mark, you, me, Rainspa, the OP, and all the other respondents, everyone here is doing the best they can, even Tipsy
-- Edited by LinBaba on Tuesday 2nd of August 2011 01:30:38 AM
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
Just as in my home group, this topic generated quite a conversation. Some things I have learned are: 1) Only I can decide if I am an alcoholic or not 2) I need to look for similarities rather than differences 3) It is my responsibility to give back what I am being freely given 3) Many of us have addictive personalities, with the "phenonmen of craving" covering a range of substances 4)Respect the house I am in, and share accordingly 5) If I am not an alcoholic (which I am) I should not be trying to help true alcoholics achieve sobriety, I would hurt them more than help them. Most importantly, I have learned to let my HP guide me, one day at a time, through this journey called life and my recovery. Again, thanks to all for your responses and Peace.
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I asked God for all things that I may enjoy life. He gave me life so that I may enjoy all things.
Just as in my home group, this topic generated quite a conversation. Some things I have learned are: 1) Only I can decide if I am an alcoholic or not 2) I need to look for similarities rather than differences 3) It is my responsibility to give back what I am being freely given 3) Many of us have addictive personalities, with the "phenonmen of craving" covering a range of substances 4)Respect the house I am in, and share accordingly 5) If I am not an alcoholic (which I am) I should not be trying to help true alcoholics achieve sobriety, I would hurt them more than help them. Most importantly, I have learned to let my HP guide me, one day at a time, through this journey called life and my recovery. Again, thanks to all for your responses and Peace.
Brilliant, seriously, lovely response, and every word a gem and exactly true, if you were my sponsee my head would pop from pride
well done and succinctly and beautifully put
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
You belong wherever you feel most comfortable and if people have a problem with it. It's THIER problem. Times do change and nowadays most people coming into AA do have other addictions. Anyone who thinks he or she may have a problem with alcohol is welcome in AA. Most discussion and topics do deal with alcohol primarily...so when telling our stories, we refine them mostly to alcohol, but I have found that only very very oldtimers really care about periodic references to "other substances." If you want to talk all about issues pertaining to meth or cocaine or whatever, then NA is more appropriate. Otherwise, I know many many many folks that really seemed to have more primary problems with drugs, but stay in AA just because that is where they feel like they belong and what helps them stay sober the most. I personally am glad for them.
Mark
-- Edited by pinkchip on Sunday 31st of July 2011 05:09:15 PM
I do agree with you Mark. They're fortunate enough to have a place to go. I'm also happy for them and what they bring to the group, despite all else. However, I try to suggest two things. They should respect AA by aligning their meesage in the context of "Alcoholism" not drugs. And, they should never, ever try to rearrange the furniture. We're "AA" not "NA"...got it.
Addressing your question only, I didn't read this whole thread, but personally in my city (SF), I am definitely in a small minority of my AA fellows for being "only" an alcoholic and not using or having a problem with other drugs. At the meetings I attend, all are welcome but folks are encouraged to focus their shares on their problems with alcohol, specifically.
I feel alcoholism is different from other addictions in that other drugs are not available at any grocery store, consumed at every social gathering, and so in the forefront of daily urban social life. But I also feel that I may be able to learn something from anyone doing step work and struggling with addiction, so I'm definitely of the "more the merrier" attitude when t comes to meetings.
I am one of those that introduces myself at AA meetings (and NA) as a "recovering alcoholic and addict". NA has a similar beef with this , that they view alcohol as just another drug, I agree. I say it for MY benefit, so that I don't ever forget that I am also a drug addict. Imo, there is a difference, alcohol is legal, and drugs or the abuse of prescription drugs are illegal, which carries an additional stigma.
The statement " if AA "waters down" it's program to include addicts, it will lose it's ability to help the alcoholic." has to presume that saving the "alcoholic" is more important than saving the addict. I think that there is room for all of us in AA but that we do need to respect the group and not talk about specific drugs and keep our comments in line with recovery using the 12 steps.
BTW - Real AA 75-95% Recovery from Alcohol Addiction Watered down BS imitation AA 5-20% Recovery from Alcohol Addiction ________________________________________________________
got any data on this claim? it sure wasn't in any of AA's censuses
This is the question I have been asking myself since my home group meeting last night. It is chaired by one of the strongest and most passionate members of our local AA community. He shared that one of the things he was taught is that not everyone who attends AA meetings belongs there, that there are some who would benefit from attending another 12 step program more. His analogy was that if you put 90 people in a room for 30 days and gave them all herion, they would all come out herion addicts. But put the same 90 people in a room for 30 days with alcohol, and about 6 of them would truly be alcoholics, the other 84 would be clamoring to get out.