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Post Info TOPIC: Irma Livoni - The woman who was kicked out of AA - Tradition Three


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Irma Livoni - The woman who was kicked out of AA - Tradition Three
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I found this very informative writing while cruising the internet this morning and wanted to share it with the Miracles In Progress family.  I believe it will move your heart to understand Tradition 3 in a new light.

**************************************


The first woman kicked out of AA 

This was passed along to me from a friend. Thought all of you might enjoy this bit of our history about one of the 'whys' we have traditions.

Here is the story about Irma Livoni. Each year around this time I try to tell this true story about what happened not just on Dec. 7th, 1941 (Pearl Harbor Day) but what happened to one of the few women who was in AA at that time and about a letter she received in the mail on Monday Dec. 8th, which virtually kicked her out of AA. 

In Dec. of 1984, I had been sober for 2 1/2 years, and working with my sponsors Bob and Sybil Corwin since Jan. of 84. Sybil had gotten sober in March of 1941 and at the time she was 43 yrs sober. We were driving home from a meeting and she asked me the date ( to her it was just Sunday). I told her it was Dec. 8th, and that yesterday (Dec 7th) was the anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day.

She said "Matt, have I ever told you about Irma Livoni?"
"Nope, who is she?"

She said, "Well, when we get back to the house, come in for coffee and I will tell you a story about AA history and some of the reasons we have tradition 3. Oh, and by the way Matt, did you know that the literature specifically protests queers, plain crackpots and fallen women,' and since you and I are at least two out of those three, we should be especially grateful for tradition 3. I'll show you it when we get home." 

I laughed out loud, as Sybil had a great sense of humor, and she had been a taxi dancer, back before she got sober, you know one of those "10 cents a dance" ladies, and she was divorced twice, and was a single mom, as well as an alcoholic back then, so the term fallen woman" was something that hit close to home.

She had told me that it was very different back in the 30's and 40's for a woman to be an alcoholic. Sybil said it was a time when women wore hats and gloves, and "respectable women" were not usually found in a bar or at "whoopee parties."

Our Thursday night step study had voted to not cover the traditions after we got to step 12, so I figured they must not be very important and thought I'd probably be bored with the conversation, but she got my attention telling me that queers, crackpots and fallen women" were mentioned, so I agreed to come in for coffee.

Besides Sybil had been sober longer than I had been alive. I didn't argue with her very much.

Sybil got down her copy of the big book. She said, I want you to find the traditions in there, and read me tradition 3. It was a 1st edition Big Book. Thicker than mine.

I said, "Is this why they call it the Big Book?"

She said, "exactly, Bill had it printed on big paper, with big margins around the type, so that people would think they were really getting something for their money."

I looked in the back of the book, where I thought the traditions were, but couldn't find them. "I can't find them, Sybil."

"Exactly. That's because we didn't have any traditions back in 1941 when I came in, and Matt, AA was in mortal danger of destroying itself, which is why we have traditions now." Then she had me find them in my 3rd edition and in my 12x12. I didn't read it all, just the caption heading, and then she started telling me the story of IRMA LIVONI.

Irma was a sponsee of Sybil's. She also became a member in 1941, just after Sybil. Sybil took her into her home. (Sybil told me that many people's bottoms were very low then, no home, no job, no watch, no car, nothing). Sybil said it was different then for a woman to be an alcoholic, That most of them had burned all their bridges with their families, and were looked down upon, even more so than male alcoholics. Sybil said she watched AA help Irma get sober, watched AA help Irma get cleaned up, watched AA help Irma get her first apartment in sobriety.

Then she said that on Dec. 5th, 1941 a self appointed group of the members signed a letter to Irma and mailed it 2 days before Pearl Harbor , on that Friday, Dec. 5th. Here is a copy of the letter.

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 
Post Office Box 607
Hollywood , California

December 5th, 1941

Irma Livoni
939 S. Gramercy Place
Los Angeles , California

Dear Mrs. Livone:

At a meeting of the Executive Committee of the Los Angeles Group of Alcoholics Anonymous, held Dec. 4th, 1941. It is decided that your attendance at group meetings was no longer desired until certain explanations and plans for the future were made to the satisfaction of this committee. This action has been taken for reasons which should be most apparent to yourself. It was decided that, should you so desire, you may appear before members of this committee and state your attitude. This opportunity will be afforded you between now and Dec. 15th, 1941. You may communicate with us at the above address by that date. 

In case you do not wish to appear, we shall consider the matter closed and that your membership is terminated.

Alcoholics Anonymous, Los Angeles Group
Mortimer, Frank, Edmund, Fay D., Pete, Al

I was stunned. "How could they do this Sybil?" Because we didn't have any guidelines, any traditions to protect us from good intentions. AA was very new, and people did all sorts of things, thinking they were protecting the fellowship"

Sybil then said to close my eyes and imagine my being in the following setting. Sybil explained that Dec. 7th, 1941 was Pearl Harbor Day (a Sunday). She said that on that Sunday night everyone in LA was afraid that Los Angeles would also be attacked and bombed. There was a citywide blackout, people were so terrified. She said that on Monday Dec.8th President Roosevelt gave the speech that talked about "the date that will live in infamy" and that we were now at war with Japan and Germany .

She said, that was the day that Irma received her letter. There was only one meeting in the entire state of California when Sybil came in, in 1941. By December there may have been 2 or 3, but Irma had nowhere else to go, no one else to turn to, no other group in California that she could ask for help.

Sybil said, "Imagine only 1 or 2 meetings in your entire state, and being shunned by your family and by society and by the only group of people who were on your side, your AA group. Imagine them shutting the door on you and sending you such a letter."

I shivered at the thought of it, It was Christmas time, the stores were decorated and now poor Irma was all alone, I thought about how it was in 1984 with 2000 meetings a week to choose from in Southern California , and then I imagined having no other help for a hopeless alcoholic.

Sybil told me that Irma never came back to another meeting, left AA and died of alcoholism. She wrote to Bill about the incident, and I cannot tell you that is the reason that the following is a part of the 3rd Tradition, but it certainly seems to apply.

From Tradition 3, page 141:

...that we would neither punish nor deprive any AA of membership, that we must never compel anyone to pay anything, believe anything, or conform to anything? The answer, now seen in Tradition 3, was simplicity itself. At last experience taught us that to take away any alcoholics full chance was sometimes to pronounce his death sentence, and often to condemn him to endless misery. Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?"

JUDGE, JURY AND EXECUTIONER

I remember looking at those words again and again. They seemed to get larger and larger.

.JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER
JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER
JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

I hadn't really noticed Executioner when I had read it the first time at my 12 & 12 study group. Again I felt so bad for this poor lady. Wow, those words really had a different meaning than when I had read the traditions before, So here it is , 23 years later, and each Dec. 7th & 8th I always think about Irma Livoni, and how lucky I am, that we have traditions now, I also think of how lucky I was to have met Sybil and so lucky that she appointed herself my sponsor.

Years later I realized how everything she ever taught me was like gold, but in 1984 I had no idea who Sybil really was or how lucky I was to have her as my sponsor. She was like a piece of living history, but I really didn't realize how valuable that was in explaining WHY we do some of the things we do (like the story she told me about how they never said "Hi Sybil" and no one said "Hi my name is Matt and I'm an alcoholic" back then).

Besides being one of the first women in AA,. Sybil was the first woman west of the Mississippi . She also became the head of LA's central office for 12 years, and she became close friends with Bill and Lois. She and Bob even used to go on vacation with them. She used to tell me all sorts of stories about Bill Wilson and things he said to her.

He was very interested in how AA would work for women, as there were very few women worldwide in AA back in 1941. Marty Man n came in before Sybil did, but very few stayed sober.

I learned that night that no one can get kicked out of AA. We can ask a disturbing wet drunk that he needs to settle down or we might have to ask him to step outside for that day, but we don't vote to kick anyone out forever . And we don't shun people because our guidelines, our traditions tell us that no one has to believe in anything (they don't have to like me) and they don't have to conform to anything, they don't have to dress a certain way, or have no facial hair, or pay anything .) Even if I get drunk again, I am still welcome at any AA meeting.

So that's the story about Irma Livoni. Feel free to pass this along to anyone you know who might be interested in knowing a bit about how and why the traditions got started. I think it sort of puts a face on Tradition 3: the face of a woman, a woman who got kicked out of AA. Who got drunk and died.

****************

I'm glad this letter was passed on to me and I thank God for Tradition 3 and I thank God for each of you. I truly appreciate and cherish all the people in Miracles In Progress, and AA as a whole.

**PS. (Editing has been removed due to this being a persons experience that someone shared based on their own evolution of languistic terms and openmindedness or lack there of.  It is not a reflection of todays society at large or the evolution of langistics, social ideologies, political correctness or anything else.  It is about tradition 3, which if we had to have a application to qualify ourselves for this program besides having a desire to stop drinking, none of us would be sitting in the rooms today.)



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How blessed we are for having such an amazing program.

A few nights ago at a meeting, I had a bad experience with an alcoholic at an AA meeting. To make a long story short, I gave her the only change I had after she asked for some change for her bus fare. She ended up throwing the change back at me, muttering a few ugly words. I cried, I was furious. My sponsor was with me. She hugged me and said "She is sick. There may be some people that shouldn't be allowed here, but under no circumstances are we to turn anyone away".

The lady was sick. I understand now. And although I had a bad experience with her, I am grateful that she will never be turned away from her community of alcoholics.

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I absolutely hate that you have quoted that you enjoyed and payed special attention because of the mention of "Queers." I find this highly ironic also given that I have heard multiple times that gay people are and AA's acceptance and protection and inclusion of them is the largest reason for tradition 3. Not saying your story is not true, but at BEST it is just part of a much broader picture.

Like all of the traditions there are multiple reasons for having them in place. My understanding of how tradition 3 evolved is completely different than what you stated. Here is some more history for you as I have found on the site http://www.glbtinrecovery.com/GLBT-AA-history.aspx. It states at the end of paragraph 4 what I am getting at. The rest is GAY AA history:

In 1985 I was privileged to hear Barry L. of New York speak at the 2nd Gay and Lesbian Roundup in Minneapolis (now known as MinneSober).

Barry L. came into Alcoholics Anonymous in 1945. Early in his sobriety, three women became friends with him, and realized the struggle gay men were having in AA. The women suggested that they ask Bill Wilson what he thought of there being special meetings for gay people. Bill told Barry to wait a while and he would think about it. (This was in 1946.)

In 1947 Bill was in Boston for a meeting when three men approached him and asked if it would be OK to start a gay meeting. Bill asked them if they were willing to go to any length for sobriety. When they answered yes, he said if that was the length they needed to go to, then to go ahead and do it. (According to Barry, this meeting did not survive long. The place they met was the basement of the YMCA, and the members often got side tracked.)

Another big step for the homosexuals in AA came in year two of the Akron group. A man came to them who was an alcoholic and wanted to join, but admitted to being a sex deviate. The question came up concerning should there be rules to exclude certain people. Bill W. asked, "Who are we to deny anyone this opportunity?" Dr. Bob asked, "What would the Master do?" This was the start of the idea for the Third Tradition. (BELLS, WHISTLES. THERE IT IS RIGHT THERE)

Another big step came in 1973 at the General Service Conference. A question came up concerning listing groups as being gay in the directory. The subject was heatedly discussed and tabled until 1974. In '74 there was a lengthy and heated debate, but when it came to a vote there were 131 for and only 2 against the listing of gay groups in the AA Directory.

In 1976 the question of having a pamphlet for homosexuals was brought up. This was voted down, but the pamphlet "Do You Think Your Different" was accepted. Since that time a pamphlet for Gays and Lesbians in AA has been published.

The most recent big step that affects us in planning for the International Convention of Alcoholics Anonymous is that in 1980 at the Conference in New Orleans, homosexual speakers were officially on the program. This was a big issue to accept of the idea that homosexuality is controversial.

I am so grateful for the members of AA that have gone before me! As Barry L. put it, "In 1945 we were not in closets, we were sealed in vaults!" Coming from that to having our own groups, literature, speakers, roundups, and hospitality rooms at AA Conventions, is quite a leap. It took a lot of work by, not only homosexual members, but may others, whose only concern was what can be done to help achieve sobriety and stay sober. It is a wonderful legacy for us, to, in return, ask what can we do - not only in our homosexual community - to help others get and stay sober.

In 1984 Jerry S, now passed on, spoke at the Gay and Lesbian Roundup in Minneapolis. He was one of the founders of groups for homosexuals in the Twin Cities.

When he was about 8 months sober (in the late '60's), he got a call from a friend one Sunday morning. There were three gay men that wanted to get sober. By the end of the day, Jerry had helped them get to treatment, but he was a wreck! He needed other gays to turn to for support, but where should he turn?

In the fall of 1969 Jerry and a few other men started Maverick AA Feelings Group, which has been in existence every since. Next, they started Lavender, which was a step group and then came Brothers and Sisters. Although the two step groups folded, the Gratitude meetings sprang from them. There are now over a dozen GLBT AA groups in the Twin Cities (as well as Al-anon, NA, and ACOA).

MinneSober, started as the Twin Cities Gay and Lesbian Roundup, was started in 1984. GLBT in Recovery, started as GLBT in AA started in 1998 to help plan the International Convention of Alcoholics Anonymous in the Twin Cities, was organized to help provide social and educational functions for the GLBT clean and sober community.



-- Edited by pinkchip on Thursday 28th of July 2011 12:59:23 AM

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bluebee wrote:

How blessed we are for having such an amazing program.

A few nights ago at a meeting, I had a bad experience with an alcoholic at an AA meeting. To make a long story short, I gave her the only change I had after she asked for some change for her bus fare. She ended up throwing the change back at me, muttering a few ugly words. I cried, I was furious. My sponsor was with me. She hugged me and said "She is sick. There may be some people that shouldn't be allowed here, but under no circumstances are we to turn anyone away".

The lady was sick. I understand now. And although I had a bad experience with her, I am grateful that she will never be turned away from her community of alcoholics.


The program in action. Thanks...everyone for responding. Thanks... john for the story as well. Certainly, food for thought. AA has changed since then and I hope for the better everyday.

~God bless~



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pinkchip wrote:

I absolutely hate that you have quoted that you enjoyed and payed special attention because of the mention of "Queers."

 

mark - it wasn't john who payed special attention becuase of themention of 'queers', it was Matt in 1984.  But thanks for your fullsome post. I've read in teh BB about the guy with the other problem and wondered what it was. I allus assumed it was drugs.



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Yeah, I realized that after I responded. Either way, I still wouldn't be so quick to post someone else's ignorance and bigoted statements.  All of tradition 3 is about inclusiveness.  Why highlight some fool's words that thinks it is funny to call gay people "Queers?"  Furthermore, half the members here struggle with mood disorders as well, so to choose a story that refers to "Crackpots" is also defaming.



-- Edited by pinkchip on Thursday 28th of July 2011 09:35:16 AM

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pinkchip wrote:

  Furthermore, half the members here struggle with mood disorders as well, so to choose a story that refers to "Crackpots" is also defaming.



 Hmm...  I always thought "crackpot" was someone who was full of ****, but the dictionary says-

"a person who is eccentric, unrealistic, or fanatical. adjective. 2. eccentric; impractical; fanatical: crackpot ideas"

"An eccentric person, especially one with bizarre ideas. adj. Foolish; harebrained"

"a person who is silly or stupid."

 

I've been all of those things, and will be again.    It probably descibes most alcoholics, to one extent or another, at one time or another.  I didn't see  moody, socially withdrawn, or under psychiatric care,  in any of the definitions. 



-- Edited by StPeteDean on Thursday 28th of July 2011 10:42:36 AM



-- Edited by StPeteDean on Thursday 28th of July 2011 10:50:38 AM

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pinkchip wrote:

Yeah, I realized that after I responded. Either way, I still wouldn't be so quick to post someone else's ignorance and bigoted statements.  All of tradition 3 is about inclusiveness.  Why highlight some fool's words that thinks it is funny to call gay people "Queers?"  Furthermore, half the members here struggle with mood disorders as well, so to choose a story that refers to "Crackpots" is also defaming.



-- Edited by pinkchip on Thursday 28th of July 2011 09:35:16 AM


 This is a personal view and you can shoot me down if you want - but are you maybe painting yourself into a corner, being a touch sensitive?

I'm sorry that this has upset you and I know and value your strong views on equality and you have been personally very helpful and reassuring to me. But i do worry sometimes about what I see as Political correctness Gone Mad (TM: daily mail)

For example, there is a film called the dambusters (the original one) The squadron leader of the flight of Mosquitos has a dog called n***** - there i can't even bring myself to spell the word - in recent edits of teh film, the N word is gapped out, so when he calls his dog, he calls for nuh.

Back when the film was made, the N word was acceptable as a dog's name, as a descriptor for a particular shade of brown material and sadly as a descriptor for a negro. (can i use Negro?). now it's not acceptable as a descriptor of a person - fair go, but as a name for a dog or for a colour? N***** being a corruption of Negro - what was Negro a corruption of?

I struggle when black guys over here call themselves niggers (there I can say it in context) and when Gays call themselves queers as they sometimes do. I used to struggle with Gay until soemone explained that it was an acronym for Good As You.

attitudes and opinions move on. people make mistakes and us alkies are sure as all hell touchy  people.



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well, this is definitely true for me,

"We alcoholics are sensitive people. It takes some of us a long time to outgrow that serious handicap."

sometimes it's hard to remember it's not all about "me" (and my ilk) I have gone on absolute rampages about things then reread the original "offensive" email or post or whatever from a month to a year later and realized "oops, that doesn't -really- say what I thought it did at ALL

however in the meantime it was PFFFFFFT RAAAWWWWRRRRR SCRATCH CLAW

That whole thing about restraint of pen and tongue has gotten 100x more difficult in the age of 'teh interweb' IMO, forums and emails are veritable mine-fields, now I try to at least give it 24 hours before I respond, because the truth is, I am an idiot, and highly sensitive

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The first time I ever got bitched at for not using the then-currently-PC term for something or someone, I had the creeping feeling that it wasn't about being offensive or insensitive, but that by not knowing the correct term of the day, I was being exposed as being not as smart, not as educated, not as with-it, just an ignorant buffoon who doesn't read the papers and missed this morning's announcement that "black" is out and "African American" is in, thus condemning anyone who's simply too lazy to say seven syllables instead of one. 

Nothing has happened in the 40 years since to make me think any different.  It's not about offensiveness, it's about eliteism.  I'm an alcoholic, a drunk, asshole honky fat guy.  If I offended some other fat asshole by saying so, well... it takes one to know one!

Barisax



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Really, would it be any less offensive if the original person had talked about AA excluding "Gays, mentally ill, and adult entertainment workers"?

The offense is the exclusion, not the terminology.

Barisax



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I'm over it pretty much...but the term "queer" is not just a nonPC thing. It's offensive in that context. It doesn't have to do with PC. I wouldn't post info about something referring to Black people with the N word. It's not "all about me being overly sensitive" either. When you have had "faggot" or "queer" screamed at you when you are walking down the street minding your own business, you can tell me more about being oversensitive to those words. So, I stand by that it was not a good thing to post on here and is reflective of intolerance in AA,when in fact, AA is about open mindedness and inclusion AND tradition 3 really developed much more because of gay people seeking recovery which strikes me as ironic given the use of that word.

I will admit I need to work on restraint of pen and tongue though. I do admit when I'm wrong too though and you guys have seen me do that.

Thanks for removing the word.  Also, Barisax...I may call myself pejorative words like queer sometimes but I still get offended hearing straight folks use it negatively.  Similar to the way I hear african americans use the N word sometimes to each other but I am never going to use it myself.



-- Edited by pinkchip on Thursday 28th of July 2011 07:33:12 PM

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thanks Mark mate.

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Well, here I go again... and what I say here is not up for negotiation... so, any attempt to spring a debate with me or with what I say here will result in either the thread getting closed or removed, but the original story staying in its original context and posted on the board as is.....

Editing has been removed due to this being a persons experience that someone shared based on their own evolution of languistic terms and openmindedness or lack there of.  It is not a reflection of or about todays society at large or the evolution of langistics, social ideologies, political correctness or anything else.  It is about tradition 3, it is about the people of the time that were shunned, and NOT what terms or language of the time was being used to describe them.  If we had to have a application to qualify ourselves for this program besides having a desire to stop drinking, none of us would be sitting in the rooms today.)

I don't care if you have a problem with a word, be it "queer, gay, homosexual, leisbian, black, nigger, negro, cracker, mentally lose, retarded, wacko, psycho, rag head" or any other word or phrase.  No one in this fellowship can be told what to do or how to do it.  No matter what term someone may use or not use does not desolve any ones right to the opportunity to recover, not even yours or mine.  Nor is what someone is besides a person with a desire to stop drinking relevent to the opportunity to recover.  To me the same difference is if someone is using the term... refer, pot, weed, marijuana, or ..., it simply reflects the time frame of the person who is sharing "history" and using the term of their langistic developement and social evolution.  Today, those of an differing sexual life style, may be called gay.. which seems to bring about pride in the standing of the beholder (which is also screamed at them in opposition rallies today and as they walk down the street)... but in 1941, when this woman got sober and within the society she was taught in.. the word gay meant happy, joyous, cheerful; not anything else.  The words homosexual or leisbian would have most adults of that time getting a dictionary out to find out what they meant, and they might not have even found them in the dictionary back then.  In the 30's and 40's these people were not worried about being politically correct or saying things to protect everyone's little feelings. They did the best they could with what they had to work with at the time, and based on their own understanding, and social developement.

When you stand in such harsh judgement of them for their langustics and terminologies, you are doing exactly the same thing you are accusing them of doing... being insensitive due to a lack of understanding, intellect, or compassion.

I simply suggest that you get over yourself, get passed your own nose, stop thinking everything is all about you, and that anything that offends you should be edited or removed for your personal reasons. In short take your own sign down that protest the rest of the world around you, before you start demanding the rest of the world take its signs down.  In short, clean up your own yard first. Take the splinter out of your own eye before raising hell about the splinter in someone elses.

When it is about you personally, or attacks your sexual oriniation on a personal level I will stand behind you 100% and stand solidly in the spirit of Tradition 3 in your behalf.  But this isn't, nor ever was about you... it was about why you and many others with a variety of "outside" issues can embrace the concepts of recovery, without interference today, take your seat, and learn, grow, heal and recover, just like everyone else, regardless of what you may or may not think of them, or them of you.

I do not want any one to ever think I am lacking consideration when I post something.  I allow for room of the time frame people come from. If someone is speaking about music, you can get a pretty good picture of their age range, social development, techologies developed by the medium they used at the time... 78's, 33's, 45's, 8 tracks, cassetts, cd's, mp3's.... 

This woman's history which is reflected in the writing above is as valuable to her as yours is to you, and mine is to me.  Don't deny her that right... I damn sure won't.

John



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Okay okay... This was a case of my oversensitivity. Damn it. It definitely wasn't worth all that. The issue is alcoholism anyhow...not my gayness. I really don't know why I get my panties all up in a bunch sometimes but I know I'm not alone in it here LOL. Sorry John.

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P.S. - Through all my ranting I forgot to ask my most pertinent question:

I cant tell from the story what Irma did that warranted her getting the letter. It doesn't really explain. What "attitudes" did they not like of hers? What "plans" did they want to hear from her. It's so vague. Someone explain perhaps...

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