Larry_H wrote:

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The beauty of the Third Step is that there's no real work for us to do. Making a decision to turn our will and our life over to the care of God requires no energy, no movement.

We don't need to do anything to earn the grace of God. In fact, there isn't any way we could earn it.

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I could say Michealangelo was a sculptor and Leonardo Da Vinci painted a portrait, or Alexander The Great and Genghis Khan were soldiers with about the same degree of accuracy as these statements about step 3

This is like comparing some TV soap opera with Shakespeare, or a commercial jingle with Mozart

Are these statements true?

yes, in their own way

Are they so vastly understated as to be nearly incomprehensible?

Only if the difference between Ronald McDonald and Laurence Olivier is apparent to the viewer

The way it was explained to me was you work step 3 by working steps 4-9, is the goal stillness and God's Grace?

Yes

Does it take actual -work-, putting pen to paper, putting the bit in our teeth, getting the courage to face the past and the people we have wronged, having the courage to be honest with ourselves?

To me it does

Making the decision was the easy part -for me-, I was lucky to have good sponsorship who explained what it actually meant

nothing

not without actually doing the work required to turn my will and my life over to the care of God as I understand God, it had about as much merit as all my decisions to quit drinking that came to naught

That's why we see 100's of newcomers do the AA waltz

123 slip 123 slip 123 slip

because Faith Without Works is Dead

Larry_H wrote:

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The Big Book chapter five says:

"3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."

It goes on to elaborate that

We were now at Step Three. Many of us said to our Maker, as we understood Him: "God, I offer myself to Thee to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my diffi culties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!" We thought well before taking this step making sure we were ready; that we could at last abandon ourselves utt erly to Him.

We found it very desirable to take this spiritual step with an understanding person, such as our wife, best friend, or spiritual adviser. But it is better to meet God alone than with one who might misunderstand. The wording was, of course, quite opti onal so long as we expressed the idea, voicing it without reservation. This was only a beginning, though if honestly and humbly made, an effect, sometimes a very great one, was felt at once.

Steps one two and three involve making decisions nothing more.   Then we go into action starting at step four.

Larry,
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"We are sure God wants us to be happy, joyous, and free." pg. 133 BB

 

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I know what the BB says about step 3, I can recite most of it from memory, from just what do we mean that and what what do we do, to selfishness, self centeredness being at the root of our problems to "Next we embarked" in step 4, I just think any picture that views step 3 without the work involved in steps 4-9 is a woefully incomplete one, your original post says that NO action is required and then the Big Book says -we get on our knees and say the prayer-

As small as that is, it's ACTION

Jerry Rice was a football player

Does that describe how he became the greatest football player of all time?

No, because that took -work-, watching him catch a 6 yard pass and being able to consistantly turn it into an 80 yard touchdown was the result of -years- of work, I can't just - make a decision to be Jerry Rice- and have somebody throw me the ball expecting the same results as him -without doing the work-

I can make the decision, but until I do the -work- I -can't- actually turn my will and my life over to the care of God as I understand him, anymore then I could think myself sober or use will power to get sober

It's not that I don't agree with what is written in this Hazeldon blurb, it's just I believe it's so incomplete as to be dangerously misleading to a newcomer

Although our decision was a crucial and vital one, it could have little lasting effect unless followed AT ONCE by a searching and fearless moral inventory

sorry if that's misquoted, it's from memory, but doing the rest of the work promptly is the key, without the subsequent steps the decision is as useless and empty as all my promises to quit drinking while I was drinking, in Alanon they call that "quacking', which is the sound an alcoholic makes in lieu of action, it's saying one thing and doing another, like making the decision and NOT doing the steps, if nothing changes, nothing changes

Faith without works is dead

period, that is a mathematical axiom

the decision without the following steps is equally as empty, we still got 3 frogs sitting on a lily pad and nothing has changed

I know that this is Hazeldon and not you Larry, and I know you are a proponent of the steps, it's just that this sounds like the new agey bs that passes for AA these days where folks come in, catch a few meetings, get a sponsor they only use to whine to and ask for advice rather then work the steps, take a pill and haphazardly work steps 1-3 while giving lip service to the other 9 steps that they have not even a nodding acquaintance with, and call it AA and tell newcomers who walk through the door, "hi, you're in the right place" when these fools don't even know what an alcoholic is much less how to work the program, when in fact the two approaches have as much in common as a McDonalds Jingle on TV and Mozart

Sure they both music, and sadly enough most people can't tell the difference between the two, but I can, and it saddens me

LinBaba wrote:

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I know what the BB says about step 3, I can recite most of it from memory, from just what do we mean that and what what do we do, to selfishness, self centeredness being at the root of our problems to "Next we embarked" in step 4, I just think any picture that views step 3 without the work involved in steps 4-9 is a woefully incomplete one, your original post says that NO action is required and then the Big Book says -we get on our knees and say the prayer-

As small as that is, it's ACTION
(Actually the the Big Book says many of us prayed and it does not mention on our knees although I certainly was.)

Jerry Rice was a football player

Does that describe how he became the greatest football player of all time?

No, because that took -work-, watching him catch a 6 yard pass and being able to consistantly turn it into an 80 yard touchdown was the result of -years- of work, I can't just - make a decision to be Jerry Rice- and have somebody throw me the ball expecting the same results as him -without doing the work-
(I absolutly agree with you)

I can make the decision, but until I do the -work- I -can't- actually turn my will and my life over to the care of God as I understand him, anymore then I could think myself sober or use will power to get sober
(I absolutly agree with you. Step 3 is the deciscion and steps 4-9 are the work needed to actually turn our lives
over to the care of God)


It's not that I don't agree with what is written in this Hazeldon blurb, it's just I believe it's so incomplete as to be dangerously misleading to a newcomer

Although our decision was a crucial and vital one, it could have little lasting effect unless followed AT ONCE by a searching and fearless moral inventory
(I absolutly agree with you, but as explained in the Big Book the inventory is not a part of step 3. It is what should follow step three.)

sorry if that's misquoted, it's from memory, but doing the rest of the work promptly is the key, without the subsequent steps the decision is as useless and empty as all my promises to quit drinking while I was drinking, in Alanon they call that "quacking', which is the sound an alcoholic makes in lieu of action, it's saying one thing and doing another, like making the decision and NOT doing the steps, if nothing changes, nothing changes
(I absolutly agree with you)



Faith without works is dead

period, that is a mathematical axiom

the decision without the following steps is equally as empty, we still got 3 frogs sitting on a lily pad and nothing has changed

I know that this is Hazeldon and not you Larry, and I know you are a proponent of the steps, it's just that this sounds like the new agey bs that passes for AA these days where folks come in, catch a few meetings, get a sponsor they only use to whine to and ask for advice rather then work the steps, take a pill and haphazardly work steps 1-3 while giving lip service to the other 9 steps that they have not even a nodding acquaintance with, and call it AA and tell newcomers who walk through the door, "hi, you're in the right place" when these fools don't even know what an alcoholic is much less how to work the program, when in fact the two approaches have as much in common as a McDonalds Jingle on TV and Mozart

Sure they both music, and sadly enough most people can't tell the difference between the two, but I can, and it saddens me

(As we we have in the past, I think you and I are saying the same thing about what is needed to change our lives and get sober not just dry.  We just say it with minor and really unimportant differences.  Saying that step 3 is a decision that needs to be immediately followed by steps 4-9 and saying that steps 4-9 are the work of step 3 are both effective ways to state what is required if we want to get happy, joyous and free.) 

Larry,
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"I spent a lifetime in hell and it only took me twelve steps to get to heaven."

 

 

-- Edited by LinBaba on Thursday 6th of January 2011 03:39:00 AM

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StPeteDean wrote:

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I have a question for you gurus. I've had a lot of trouble with this step in the taking back my will and reluctance to turn certain people, places, and things over. It is sometimes a constant battle, hence I'm mystified at the thought that this is a quick, painless, and one time process.

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That's the crux of the matter, the entire program comes down to step 3, 1-2 lead up to it, and steps 4-12 show us how we do that

the BB says "just what do we mean by that, and what do we do" then it explains "the problem" -selfish-self-centered-, then explains "the solution" we turn to our higher power in all things, we have a new employer etc, and then shows us how to do this in bite sized pieces in 4-12

step 11 addresses this specifically though

As we go through the day we pause, when agitated or doubtful, and ask for the right thought or action. We constantly remind ourselves we are no longer running the show, humbly saying to ourselves many times each day "Thy will be done."

If we didn't constantly take running our will and our life back and either become our own higher power or make others our higher power we wouldn't have to constantly remind ourselves we are no longer running the show and saying "thy will be done"

In step 3 we make the decision, steps 4-9 show us how to actually take the action to turn our will and our lives over, step 10 'keeps the channel open" by removing the things that are "blocking us" on a daily basis, and step 11 gives us the nuts and bolts, pause when agitated etc and step 12 helps by getting "out of self" by helping others

all of it boiled down comes under step 3, like steps 4-12 are all parts of step 3, but actually turning our will and lives over is like saying "there is the basketball hoop, throw the basketball through the hoop from the free throw line"

at first we can hardly ever make it, but by practicing and learning how others have done it before us, by breaking it down into bite sized pieces, removing the flotsam and jetsam that is "self", removing fear, resentments and other "self induced noise", we can get pretty good at it, it being step 3, turning our will and our lives over to the care of God

so when we have people places and things become our higher power, we have a "grid" to run them through, steps 4-9, we check for fear, resentment, selfish blah blah, what part of -self- is running the show? we break it down, this is ALL step 3

the -full- answer is a bit longer, but it's step 11 -all day every day- as well as all the other steps

Step Eleven suggests prayer and meditation. We shouldn't be shy on this matter of prayer. Better men than we are using it constantly. It works, if we have the proper attitude and work at it. It would be easy to be vague about this matter. Yet, we believe we can make some definite and valuable suggestions.

When we retire at night, we constructively review our day. Were we resentful, selfish, dishonest or afraid? Do we owe an apology? Have we kept something to ourselves which should be discussed with another person at once? Were we kind and loving toward all? What could we have done better? Were we thinking of ourselves most of the time? Or were we thinking of what we could do for others, of what we could pack into the stream of life? But we must be careful not to drift into worry, remorse or morbid reflection, for that would diminish our usefulness to others. After making our review we ask God's forgiveness and inquire what corrective measures should be taken.

On awakening let us think about the twenty-four hours ahead. We consider our plans for the day. Before we begin, we ask God to direct our thinking, especially asking that it be divorced from self-pity, dishonest or self-seeking motives. Under these conditions we can employ our mental faculties with assurance, for after all God gave us brains to use. Our thought- life will be placed on a much higher plane when our thinking is cleared of wrong motives.

In thinking about our day we may face indecision. We may not be able to determine which course to take. Here we ask God for inspiration, an intuitive thought or a decision. We relax and take it easy. We don't struggle. We are often surprised how the right answers come after we have tried this for a while. What used to be the hunch or the occasional inspiration gradually becomes a working part of the mind. Being still inexperienced and having just made conscious contact with God, it is not probable that we are going to be inspired at all times. We might pay for this presumption in all sorts of absurd actions and ideas. Nevertheless, we find that our thinking will, as time passes, be more and more on the plane of inspiration. We come to rely upon it.

We usually conclude the period of meditation with a prayer that we be shown all through the day what our next step is to be, that we be given whatever we need to take care of such problems. We ask especially for freedom from self-will, and are careful to make no request for ourselves only. We may ask for ourselves, however, if others will be helped. We are careful never to pray for our own selfish ends. Many of us have wasted a lot of time doing that and it doesn't work. You can easily see why.

If circumstances warrant, we ask our wives or friends to join us in morning meditation. If we belong to a religious denomination which requires a definite morning devotion, we attend to that also. If not members of religious bodies, we sometimes select and memorize a few set prayers which emphasize the principles we have been discussing. There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may be obtained from one's priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer.

As we go through the day we pause, when agitated or doubtful, and ask for the right thought or action. We constantly remind ourselves we are no longer running the show, humbly saying to ourselves many times each day "Thy will be done." We are then in much less danger of excitement, fear, anger, worry, self-pity, or foolish decisions. We become much more efficient. We do not tire so easily, for we are not burning up energy foolishly as we did when we were trying to arrange life to suit ourselves.

It works it really does.

We alcoholics are undisciplined. So we let God discipline us in the simple way we have just outlined. But this is not all. There is action and more action. "Faith without works is dead." The next chapter is entirely devoted to Step Twelve.

 

(Larry I knew we would agree btw, thank you for your response)

StPeteDean wrote:

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I have a question for you gurus. I've had a lot of trouble with this step in the taking back my will and reluctance to turn certain people, places, and things over. It is sometimes a constant battle, hence I'm mystified at the thought that this is a quick, painless, and one time process.

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StPeteDean wrote:

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Linbabba ~ "the -full- answer is a bit longer"

______________________________________________________

I was afraid your were going to say that. 

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Yeah, I know...../sigh

It's like "How do you play basketball?"

short answer: you throw the ball in the basket to score points

but then there's defense, and offense, and dribbling, and traveling, and passing, and the lay up, fouls, intentional fouls, the 30 second shot clock, the college vs NBA, and the jumper, zone defense, man on man offense, then Michael Jordan...and Magic Johnson and Larry Bird and those great rivalries

or trying to explain why in Joe Montana was so incredible that a mere flick of his eyes to an intentionally different part of the field then where he was going to throw the ball would send defenders falling over each other running the wrong way so they started actually writing that in the playbook according to which team they played, they would pick on the players with that tendency like the rookie middle linebacker in super bowl blah blah blah

the short answer

work steps 10-11....and....12

well, and to work step 10, which is actually steps 4-9 and 11 is 3 and and and then woop, the can of worms done bin opened