Step Thirteen

Gzepe · Member

Step Thirteen

Buster Parkie · Newbie

Isn't this what you were doing at the Crested Butte Mountain Conference in August?

That and pushing your website.

Buster

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Hello Buster and welcome to the board. Please create a new thread and introduce yourself so that you can be properly welcomed by our regulars.

louisa · Senior Member

(((Joseph)))
My heart goes out to you.
Thank you for the website. As a sometimes sponsor myself I find it an excellent resource.
(((A HUG)))
Louisa

leeu · MIP Old Timer

You wrote: "We have found that people in recovery have a higher I.Q than the average so it would stand to reason that they also have very strong libidos."

Got any citations from the literature on those two assertions? If so,please post the references-thanks.

Aquaman · MIP Old Timer

A little science to wash that down with...

Something to keep in mind before labeling urges as "lustful" or "predatory" is that addicts and alcoholics are addicted to over-stimulation and when we remove drugs &/or booze our dopamine receptors get REAL hungry and search our vast experience libraries for something else to get off on. Natural response and nothing wrong with feeling that way.

We were recently checking in during outpatient group and I stated that recently I was SUPER horny. A LOT of heads nodded in agreement, male & female. The therapist stated exactly what I said in the previous paragraph.

That being said, it's good that sponsors/sponsees are of uncompatible sexual roles. It's good that We discourage inter-group relationships within the first year.

However, I've had quite enough of feeling guilty for my feelings, thanx. I won't be putting "horny" down under Character Defects.

Peace,
Rob

Gzepe · Member

The Big Book alludes to the fact that we make more money, the intelligent ( pages 35,38,49,54,309) and the stronger libido was an opinion of course if you get 15 alcoholics in a room you will get 20 opinions. I address the physiology of emotional and sexual addiction on "the onion peel" tab found on the RumRadio.org website My first sponsor counseled me "if you were looking for a mate in A.A. it was like looking for Olympic hopefuls in a polio ward

Joseph

Aquaman · MIP Old Timer

Gzepe wrote:

if you were looking for a mate in A.A. it was like looking for Olympic hopefuls in a polio ward

Joseph

True That.

happycamper · MIP Old Timer

Pardon me, but there is no 13th step in Alcoholics Anonymous.

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

Gzepe wrote:

"if you were looking for a mate in A.A. it was like looking for Olympic hopefuls in a polio ward

Personally I find that incredibly offensive and misogynistic, I am VERY close friends with dozens of beautiful and wonderful women most in their second or third decade of sobriety and a more mature and emotionally evolved group of women I have never met.

I always felt statements like that, blanket statements that condemned entire groups of people based on sex, race, or whatever group they belong to reveal far more about the person who says it rather then the group they say it about, and quite frankly the moment I hear discrimination, homophobia, sexism, racism, from a person's mouth from that moment on all I hear coming out of their mouth sounds like the parents in Peanuts

wuh wuhh wuh wuuuuuh

From that moment forward that person has zero credibility with me

I am intolerant of intolerance, and bigoted against bigots, I realize there is a certain Irony there but I could care less, anyone anywhere that makes flings and blanket statements against women anywhere, anyhow, can kiss my lily white -deleted-

I mean getting involved with anybody in sobriety who has less then 5 years at the very least is the very definition of insanity, but what the hell, we're all crazy when we get here anyway lol but to make the statement that all women in AA are equivilent to retards and cripples is probably one of the most offensive things I have ever seen on this board

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

I don't think he singled out women LB. Did you read his original post? It's a story about losing his daughter. I've made similar statements and shouldn't have. But that doesn't deter from the apparent fact that two AA's entering a relationship face steep odds. I had better luck looking outside the program and that action also solidified my only reason for attending meetings.

Definition of a 14th stepper: "a person who is one step ahead of all the other 13th steppers"

bikerbill · MIP Old Timer

LinBaba wrote:

Gzepe wrote:

"if you were looking for a mate in A.A. it was like looking for Olympic hopefuls in a polio ward

Personally I find that incredibly offensive and misogynistic, I am VERY close friends with dozens of beautiful and wonderful women most in their second or third decade of sobriety and a more mature and emotionally evolved group of women I have never met.

I always felt statements like that, blanket statements that condemned entire groups of people based on sex, race, or whatever group they belong to reveal far more about the person who says it rather then the group they say it about, and quite frankly the moment I hear discrimination, homophobia, sexism, racism, from a person's mouth from that moment on all I hear coming out of their mouth sounds like the parents in Peanuts

wuh wuhh wuh wuuuuuh

From that moment forward that person has zero credibility with me

I am intolerant of intolerance, and bigoted against bigots, I realize there is a certain Irony there but I could care less, anyone anywhere that makes flings and blanket statements against women anywhere, anyhow, can kiss my lily white -deleted-

I mean getting involved with anybody in sobriety who has less then 5 years at the very least is the very definition of insanity, but what the hell, we're all crazy when we get here anyway lol but to make the statement that all women in AA are equivilent to retards and cripples is probably one of the most offensive things I have ever seen on this board

Aren't you reading something htat isn't there? no where in GZEPE's post does it refer to women (or men for that matter) as equivalent to retards and cripples.

Your paraleling polio victims to retards and cripples is to me insensitive.

I think the op was using irony - seeking a mate in AA is as productive as seeking an olympic hopeful in a polio ward, or as likely as tits on a bull.

louisa · Senior Member

BB shared

seeking a mate in AA is as productive as seeking an olympic hopeful in a polio ward, or as likely as tits on a bull.

tits on a bull?????? Oh Bill!!!! biggrin

My boyfriend has over 15 years in AA, I'm coming up to 9.....he works his program (the way I think he should ...ONLY JOKING!!!!!) and I work mine. I have found the beauty of it is that we both do literally speak the same language.....

We have many years in AA. We met only about a year ago.

Re relationships in early sobriety, I protect my sponsees like a Lioness with her cubs if ANYONE tries it on with them. If my sponsees choose to ignore my advice (no - it is not a suggestion - I am deadly serious about it) I simply tell them to find a different sponsor. I tell them this before they even decide to go ahead with me as their sponsor . Those are the rules. I know - seems domineering and harsh. Tough.....maybe I am wrong in my behaviour in this area. So be it. I'll be wrong.
I don't care. I would do the same in the unlikely event I were sponsoring a male and females tried it on with him in early sobriety.

Louisa
xx

"unlikely" as in I have only ever up to now sponsored females......jut wanted to clarfiy!!!! wink

-- Edited by louisa on Tuesday 5th of October 2010 05:45:21 AM

-- Edited by louisa on Tuesday 5th of October 2010 05:46:15 AM

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

StPeteDean wrote:

I don't think he singled out women LB. Did you read his original post? It's a story about losing his daughter. I've made similar statements and shouldn't have. But that doesn't deter from the apparent fact that two AA's entering a relationship face steep odds. I had better luck looking outside the program and that action also solidified my only reason for attending meetings.

Definition of a 14th stepper: "a person who is one step ahead of all the other 13th steppers"

understood.....so you are saying he finds everyone here an unfit mate, men and women both, in other words, all of us lolol

I don't think he singled out women LB

Maybe, but usually men who say that about "mates" are usually referring to women, all those little jokes you hear in AA, "the odds are good that the goods are odd" all that crap, I think women are the butt of enough jokes without having to face that sh** in AA too, no wonder there are womens only meetings, ya know?

I guess I have always found blanket statements that were derogatory about any group of people offensive, as well as stereotyping, even under the guise of humor, actually especially under the guise of humor, I'm just not big on racism, sexism, homophobia, etc and I have seen that sort of thing a lot so I bristle a little bit, the great fat corpulant loser who would have trouble paying a hooker to sleep with him who gets to be "important" in AA because he has a few 24 hours holding forth about how sick the women in AA are when the truth is what he needs is a mirror to see "sick", it's like seeing "harmless" jewish jokes or n****er jokes or gay jokes, I don't think there is such a thing as "harmless" when it comes to certain humor, and telling a group of people they are unfit mates fall under that category to me, and telling a group of people that they are too good for another group of people in the same group is a double whammy

@Bill Heya Bill, I was using the terms "retard" and "cripples" to go with the "flavor" of "Olympic hopefuls at a polio ward"

We don't have much polio or polio wards any more, and when we did they used terms like "retard" and "cripple", terms that aren't seen any more out of a playground, I was making a point by using terms that were in use when we had polio wards, apologies if that seemed insensitive, in the future I will be sure to use developmentally or vertically challenged

I just get fiercely protective of "my girls" in AA, I was raised by wolves see, and so when I got to AA a group of girls adopted me and taught me how to be a human being, and I am not exxagerating all that much, so when I see folk blathering on about how they are unfit mates I get a little defensive, all my friends that cared to got married and now have children and like I said are all in their 2nd and 3rd and even 4th and 5th decade of sobriety, and they are wonderful wives, mothers and grandmothers

I mean I guess we all do it to some extent, jeez look at what I wrote about codies but in AA and in sponsorship for me what I try to get the sponsee to concentrate on his himself, I point out that -he- is the unfit mate at the moment (pointing out his past) and say well lets work on making you a -fit- mate, on getting you spiritually fit and emotionally healthy, and then his choices are his own, and in my experience when people are spiritually fit and emotionally healthy they make better decisions, I mean "boy meets girl on AA campus and love follows at first sight" is usually a train wreck, but that is said tactfully

I actually like what Bill wrote:

A.A. has many single alcoholics who wish to marry and are in a position to do so. Some marry fellow A.A.'s. How do they come out? On the whole these marriages are very good ones. Their common suffering as drinkers, their common interest in A.A. and spiritual things, often enhance such unions.
It is only where "boy meets girl on A.A. campus," and love follows at first sight, that difficulties may develop.
The prospective partners need to be solid A.A.'s and long enough acquainted to know that their compatibility at spiritual, mental, and emotional levels is a fact and not wishful thinking.
They need to be as sure as possible that no deep-lying emotional handicap in either will be likely to rise up under later pressures to cripple them.

The considerations are equally true and important for the A.A.'s who marry "outside" A.A. With clear understanding and right, grown-up attitudes, very happy results do follow.

And what can be said of many A.A. members who, for a variety of reasons, cannot have a family life? At first many of these feel lonely, hurt, and left out as they witness so much domestic happiness about them. If they cannot have this kind of happiness, can A.A. offer them satisfactions of similar worth and durability? Yes--whenever they try hard to seek them out. Surrounded by so many A.A. friends, these so-called loners tell us they no longer feel alone. In partnership with others--women and men--they can devote themselves to any number of ideas, people, and constructive projects. Free of marital responsibilities, they can participate in enterprises which would be denied to family men and women. We daily see such members render prodigies of service, and receive great joys in return.

Personally I find that much more helpful and hopeful then polio ward comparisons

-- Edited by LinBaba on Tuesday 5th of October 2010 08:41:26 AM

Dave Harm · Senior Member

Wow... getting back to the OP... I am sorry for your lose. And I admire your work through your website.

I have seen this 13th Step all to often... on both sides. I saw a women with six years sobriety attach herself to a young man. Within a month they were living together... within two he left her to go back to partying and defeated she too returned to drinking. Then after she returned and had a month of sobriety she moved in with a guy with five years... so far they are hanging on.

The worst "abuse" I have seen though in my 16 years of sobriety was two women who were good friends. One woman ended up getting divorced in her first year of marriage and ended up stealing her friend's husband.

That happened just over a year ago and you see this couple at meetings and they7 are just miserable.

Do AA relationships work? Yes they do. I know one couple... he has 35 years and his wife 38 and they are just the most enjoyable couple to be around. They have successfully kept their marriage and their AA lives separately.

What I personally hate about the 13th step is the meaning of it. Originally the old timers did have an unwritten 13th step. That step was taken to your grave.... to start your next life sober... what a wonderful thought that has lost its meaning through the years.

happycamper · MIP Old Timer

Just gotta ask .. To: Dave Harm .. How does a woman steal another womans husband?

Dave Harm · Senior Member

Whoops... you are quite right... sorry about that...

I say that because their marriage "appeared" quite strong... obviously it wasn't

Reffner · Senior Member

Gzepe wrote:
if you were looking for a mate in A.A. it was like looking for Olympic hopefuls in a polio ward

Joseph

As a father of child with special needs I am truly and highly offended. I understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but when comments directed toward people with special needs are used in that context that is just plain wrong. I suggest you think next time before you open your mouth and let shit fall out.

I'm done with this SHIT!!!

Brian

Just Toni · MIP Old Timer

Agree Brian, I was so infuriated, by

My first sponsor counseled me "if you were looking for a mate in A.A. it was like looking for Olympic hopefuls in a polio ward"

It left me speechless, and did no understand why the whole post was not deleted, or at least "closed" from further comment....

I am considering the source, so to speak.

Interesting that this post title is Step Thirteen.

Nothing to say.......well except to the OP, how very cruel of you.......

Toni

OK, have to get this off my chest, my mother had 7 brothers and sisters, one sister, and one brother that had bad ear infections out in the countryland of Missoula Montana, and for some reason were not given the Penicillian for the infections, and in both, after the infection went away, they were both rendered development disabled.....two of the sweetest kindest people I had ever met, and they lives were lost to a certain extent. I always felt so teary eyed after I would see and visit with them. And to have anyone make fun of them and they did in public, all the time, they looked normal, but when asked a question or all the things we do in public, remember very well all the cruel and ingorant snickers......

Ok done......Remember folks, God is watching how we treat each other, and God looks out for the weaker ones, I believe that with all my heart.

Ok, off my chest

-- Edited by Just Toni on Tuesday 5th of October 2010 03:43:50 PM

Gzepe · Member

Now I can see how politicians get in deep when once they inadvertently mis speak.

"I am not a witch" My apologies for my flippant quote The good work of warning against premature romantic entanglements instead of working the Steps and my personal experience with that loss as a result of that inappropriate activity has gotten lost in a sea of parents personal pain , as somehow my misinterpreted comment was a personal attack on the infirmed . I am sorry for your disdain and your hardships and if I could Iwould retract that perceived incendiary comment .

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Gzepe wrote:
I am sorry for your disdain and your hardships and if I could Iwould retract that perceived incendiary comment .

It can be arranged, in fact the whole thread can go bye bye biggrin

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Tuesday 5th of October 2010 06:01:58 PM

ferrisdp · Senior Member

I am sorry for the loss of your daughter, it's heartbreaking.

Gzepe · Member

I hope you can see the greater benefit and leave it be ,as most folks will read the original post and draw strength and hope, being armed with certain facts

bikerbill · MIP Old Timer

I know that threads like these are painful to some people, but I have to say that I have learnt a fair bit about how my mind works through the posts following mine. Thanks to you all for letting me see that I can have a high and mighty attitude, criticising others use of derogatory terms, while using them myself.

I don't set out to offend people, but sometimes I do. Mostly through thoughtlessness. Thread responses like these give me pause to think. In this way I learn from my mistakes. I believe I'm getting better at it.

No I don't personally believe that every or any AA on campus relationship is doomed to failure, but I would suggest that AA isn't a dating agency or a pick up joint and I personally wouldn't hold back on questioning a man's motives if I thought he wwas hitting on a woman with short time. As I have been challenged in the past. Although I thought I was all innocent, it was pointed out that I was putting myself in a vulnerable position. I have many women friends in AA and they are all known to my missus.

Aquaman · MIP Old Timer

so...
Where are we on the whole "Wanna vs. Shouldn't" discussion regarding sexuality in recovery?

My .02...

It takes a whole lot of perspective and Grace to see that diddling in the ranks early on can de-rail recovery. That kind of perspective and Grace may yet be beyond most newcomers.
Newcomers (self included) still may have physical and chemical brain-healing to do. My caveman-brain has been steeped, duped, soaked and doped for years and now it's starving for thrills. My brain is using ANY excuse to get me laid. I smelled the make-up on a woman passing by me in the grocery store the other day and my libido went on high alert.
Make-up. What's next...fabric softener?

"Attention K-Mart Shoppers...the Laundry Needs aisle is closed until further notice..."

I can understand why some people would be inclined to "hook-up" in recovery groups.

Another reason for people with longer periods of Sobriety to make sure that their Perspective & Grace is available to new people.

Peas,
Rob

turninggrey · MIP Old Timer

Great thread even though it got heated. I admire how people have spoken their minds and the wisdom that we have here including the wisdom and humility to apologize in an open and complete manner. Gzepe, I am very sorry for your loss. Very sorry. As you can see, your loss in death can be as painful as others have in life with the living. I realize that the 13th step was the topic, and all I can say is that if you have reached step 12, its tough to actually act on step 13 in an evil manner.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
If you have not made it to 12, or maintained all 12, it is easier to attempt to practice "13". This discussion is a great reminder of another temptation that is out there that our demon can use to ruin us or try and get a 2 for 1 special on.
Tom

McGowdog · Veteran Member

happycamper wrote:

Pardon me, but there is no 13th step in Alcoholics Anonymous.

Thank you. But there is a suggestion on how to deal with sex in the 12 Steps. It so happens to be a part of our 4th step.

We treat sex like we would any other problem. We avoid hysterical thinking/advice. We believe that our sex instinct is God-given and therefore good, neither to be used selfishly or loathed, etc.

Many of us need an overhauling in this area.

My experience with sex problems? Relationship problems? First of all, I realize that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. It usually boils down to power and control.

Our problems are of our own making. My problems are of my own making. If I didn't have the problem, I wouldn't be in A.A. seeking a solution.

Toad · Senior Member

Howdy,
My experience has been pretty simple with the "sex in AA " issue.
It takes two to tango. When the tango crashes it can be destructive.
That is sad. Yet it still takes Two to Tango. Other than rape, two people volunteer to do the tango.
For better or worse AA seems to be a place where many people learn " How to practice these
Principled in All our affairs."
The rooms and people of AA have been the place where this Alcoholic /// Druggie learned how to live, and be a reasonably safe member of the human race. I learned this through Practice.
My practice was not always pretty.
Many , many meetings all I was able to bring "Was the Desire to Stop Drinking" the rest of my broken, depraved self showed up with me.
So it seemed to be true with every body else.
We bring Both "our good and our bad".
I have three daughters. I have felt the pain of loss. I have felt the fear.
Yet I know
It takes two to tango.
Respectfully,
Toad

Rainspa · Senior Member

While it takes "two to Tango" , here's a little dance fact:

In the Tango, (like romantic and sexual relationships)

The is always a leader and a follower. Strong and Light leaders to be sure, but leaders none the less, and here is where it breaks down.

The amount of POWER that each person has is significantly different. The typical scenario of an older man, with more time in the program, more knowledge of the program, and more social connections in the program is not an equal partner to a female newcomer who has none of those things and is dependant on him.

However else that power is manifested, HE becomes the key to AA and sobriety, and that is wrong.

The balance of power is substantally unequal.
This puts the weaker party at a disadvantage in romance, relationships and certainly in working (or not) the program of AA.

Simplisticly It is not fair.

Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

"Other than rape, two people volunteer to do the tango."

NO. Because what is presented as a MUTUAL relationship, is in reality one person preying on another.

What one of the parties volunteered to is NOT the same thing that the other volunteer to.

The person being 13th stepped is NOT in possession of all the facts, not are they competent to negotiate a system (fellowship of AA) that is new to, and unfamiliar (also they are a bit toxic still). Asking them to do so, and/or presuming that they are able to, and when they fall short of that unattainable task while trying to get sober and in a fragile and vulnerable state is not realistic. Being fatalistic with someone else's sobriety well being and life is callous at the least and heartless at best. This is not an "oh well" situation. This is an alcoholic that still suffers.

There are degrees of abuse short of physical that are acknowledged by society, AA, medicine and the law.

Power imbalance. Sick in relationships, but when one of the parties is reaching for recovery, and the 13th stepper is interfering with her sobriety it is far more serious. The unknowing risk she is taking is for more than a broken heart. He is standing in for, and blocking her path to God. The 13th stepper knows it, and doesn't care because his needs are more important than anything else.

Toad · Senior Member

Hi,
"Simplistically" It is not fair."
" The unknowing risk she is taking is far more than a broken heart."
I do appreciate your comments Rainspa.
It is not fair. Period............................................................................................................
" his needs are more important than anything else. " Is not that what Alcoholics bring to the room's of AA ????
I cannot defend the strong preying on the weak. I do not even like thinking about it.
Yet the situation is real. Everywhere.
At times I have experienced the rooms of recovery to be ugly and dangerous.
Yet recovery is what i needed. I also experienced much Love, Acceptance, and Hope in those same rooms. I seems to be that, only the Grace of a Loving Higher Power helped me navigate through the maze.
I cannot say why I made it while others did not.
That last statement I just made in itself does not seem fair.

Toad

McGowdog · Veteran Member

So my problems are basically of my own making except with regards to sexual relationships from within the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous? What about with regards to other avenues? What about in the work place, in therapy, at the bar, or in church?

If my problems are of my own making, regardless of who I am, there is hope. If my problems are not of my making, there is no solution and I am at the pity and mercy of the big bad world. The world needs to change in order for me to be ok.

Gzepe · Member

does that mean you don't have to be wise to be old?