I just spent weeks of watching traditions and and spiritual principles being argued over,personal attacks and relentless"I must be right" scenarios' on the 'Clarity Statement" (an outside issue for here,but as this is not  AA ,but a message board ,so I am bringing that up)We discussed how traditions say we can share in any language( I always respect the fellowship by using program language, my choice..... as long as guidelines are 1) not devisive to the group,trying to draw sides,2)working in the solution and not lingering on the problem,3)stated as your own opinion and not that of the fellowship and 4)  if it affects you recovery..it created such a spirit away from the primary purpose of carrying the message to the still sick and suffering.It actually took an administrator to delete some peoples profiles..I could not envision a "newcomer" coming to a site for ESH and listening to "arguments' that will always end up 50 for.. 50 against....When we address issues on our own personal experience ,strength and hope and allow others regardless of their point of view is, to "work their recovery "to the best of their ability I believe that is helpful,tolerant and valuable.I am not saying that we should not follow up on  "misinformation"  as that may bring someone to demise ,but though we are free to share in our own words, its important, for me, to allow others  to share their own thoughts in a loving caring manner..Some are sicker than others and we all have fallen nature,If it is devisive in banter to a group I feel it should be brought to the sidelines to be worked out hopefully in a God centered way... that makes 4 cents in!!!!! (personally this is my own stuff ,I do not care for profanity and not in a religious sense,but in a language style.One of definitions of profanity in Websters states "it shows disrespect"Again I am not a prude I just choose to not use this style of language though it is all around me...Just one more spiritual principle I work on daily,some days better than others.....Face to face would be best for conflicts, ,but for cyber space me also thinks PM's

-- Edited by mikef on Wednesday 14th of July 2010 02:04:28 PM

I always try to remember that I do not need to join into every argument that I am invited to.

I also try to remember that if I forget the above statement that when I disagree I do not have to be disagreeable.

The key word is try because sometimes I forget both statements and go in swinging.

Then it's necessary for my sobriety to make amends.

It's a progress not perfection thing with me.

Larry,
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Not everything you want to say, needs to be said.
- Doris Orens

happycamper wrote:

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I believe there is a correct time and place for conflict.

I dont believe it is during a meeting of AA.

And I dont believe it is on a message board such as here either.

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Agreed, There is a time and a place for for conflicts and spontaneity, I try to schedule both well in advance

No cross talk in a meeting and a firm hold by the Secretary takes care of conflict in a meeting, but here, as in the real world I think no one plans conflicts ahead of time

Over the years one thing I have seen in meetings is most alcoholics are terrified of conflict and will do anything to avoid it, and if confonted with it will only lash out and be hurtful from a place of fear,  I agree with Larry, there is a difference between an argument which I don't necessarily need to attend or respond in kind, or conflict resolution, which was taught to be healthy, learning how to disagree without being disagreeable, but many alcoholics view contradiction and differing ideas and the resolution thereof as "controversial" and "conflict" and many times if faced with it or asked uncomfortable questions will lash out and it makes them incredibly uncomfortable, this is tied into the "elephant in the room" so many of us grew up with or lived with that we were never allowed to talk about, and the child who says, "But the Emporer has no clothes" is viewed as a shit disturber and a troublemaker by those that will do anything to avoid conflict and keep the status quo

I think The rev Martin Luther King jr said it best, we need to learn to disagree without being disagreeable, a shortcoming not specific to alcoholics

I guess for me the trick is to learn to say "The Emporer has no clothes" rather then "put some F-ing clothes on you idiot", but both make most people uncomfortable

 

I guess the problem occurs mostly when we divert from merely sharing only our experience, strength and hope.

A sponsor once informed me when I was spouting off only opinions and not ESH.....

"Louisa, opinions are like ar**holes......we've all got one but it doesn't mean we have to go around showing it to everyone!"   OUCH!!!!! She was TOUGH!!!!!

I dislike conflict, personally (professionally, it's how I make my living, but that's a different story).  I don't have a problem with honest (even pointed, and sometimes passionate) disagreements, but if it starts to get personal, it feels like an attack--whether I'm involved or just an uncomfortable bystander.

I know that if I've said or done something out of line (as we all do, from time to time), I appreciate having it brought to my attention privately, in a reasonable way rather than being publicly scolded.

We all have different personalities and issues, too, and where some people might benefit from a "swift kick" to get their attention in terms of what they should be doing in their program, that kind of approach could put someone else into a tailspin.  If the swift kick is needed, it's best administered in private, too.  Not only is it unnecessarily embarrassing to be "called on" your errors publicly, it is, as others have pointed out, confusing and potentially upsetting to newcomers.

My two cents.

Today finally laying in the Docs office having some things checked out that were causing so much stress....anyway, as I lay there waiting, I was relaxing and just checking out the ceiling tiles, and my mind went to this Post I had made earlier when I signed on and read everything..

I had this flash of "What the heck was that about, YOU are not a Moderator, Dean is and a very quick and sharp Moderator, and when something comes up, he takes care of it, that is the role of the Moderators,  not mine...

So this is a 10th Step, for it simply was not my "Job" to me making this Post......no harm done, well on the surface anyway, but did want to apologize for writing about something that simple is NOT my Job..

When I was reading, and saw some conflict, in hindsight (always 20-20) could have simple moved on, and not tried to be the make a Post about something that I found disturbing, and yes, Ago, if I see two people in a heated discussion, just turn away.   However, if I was one of the people in that heated discussion, that would be ok, of course I am speaking of being outside the rooms....

So with my 10th Step done, will say toodles to all my friends here.  Always have to be on guard for my own ego sneaking in, and it does try, especially when I feel stressed out...

Love and Hugs to all my dear friends,

Toni

Hey Toni! Thanks for coming back on and I understand what you are saying ,but I really looked at your post as only concern for "one helping another' in a recovery based manner.I never even read the post that was the cause for concern until after I had already posted my feelings on sharing ESH in a recovery ,God centered manner and how I had just been through some really detrimental posts on another board and I thought ,great ,lets discuss this before it turns into the other debacle I had just witnessed,with people being removed from site,division in the group and disruption of what many members of that board had voiced. Most members there felt it wasn't condusive for carrying the message of our 5th tradition and 12th step.We are all sick individuals all striving to walk and live better lives then when we were caught in the grip. The therapuetic value of one addict helping another is definitely without parallel. Thank you for your concern and Dean thank you for addressing issues in a recovery based manner,saying what you mean ,but not saying it mean.Spiritual principles,tolerance,humility,patience,are things we work toward everydayWith or without malice,no man can tame the tongue.It can be unruly and  full of deadly poison,With it we bless our God and we curse our brother.A small little rudder can turn an immensely large ship and a small little tougue can send blessings and curses out of the same mouth....Tomorrow ,if we are graced with that day, this will be over and we'll move forward,taking with us another learning event in life.  Hopefully we have gained valuable information that will help us in our journey of recovery and will become better from it! Back to our primary purpose carrying the message to the still sick and suffering.with tolerance and patience ,2 principles I need to pay extra attention to ,each and every day..I like how its put in our 10th step"Its easy to let up  on the spiritual program of action and rest on our laurels.We are headed for trouble if we do,for alcohol is a subtle foe.We are not cured of alcoholism.What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition.We must carry the vision of God's will in all our activities.Tomorrow God willing time for another spiritual tune-up!! Okay Mike thats good,its late,your tired ,...goodnight.I wish you peace......

This is why some of us lurk sporadically at times.... tired of the BS. But it is what it is, and it always crops up, just something we have to learn how to ignore I guess, if that is possible.

In other news,
at a meeting today in Akron at lunchtime, apparently two guys got into an argument AT the meeting which turned violent, and a table was flipped over and then EMS called... don't know any further details, but sheesh..... can't we all just friggin get along???? Isn't a bar the proper place for a stupid bar fight??

My two cents.

Well said Dean... well said

FS, Reading that link felt a little like opening the rag mags in the grocery line.  I admit I derive a guilty pleasure now and then of sneaking a look into to other's problems, perferably celebrities.  No implications meant here; I took the link to the former thread as a good example of the behavior discussed in this thread for example and education. Thanks for including it. 

That was a big lesson for me, surviving an MIP clash and learning that all of us are sick for real and not perfect sober specimens.  The place needs to be safe to share for sure, however people  do make mistakes and there are tools for dealing with it. Fortunately crap more rarely seems to plop down here.  I've had to avoid a resentment a few times after looking at some posts, I've watched a couple of arguments occur here , and freaked out when I witnessed a heated verbal fight started during a meeting in early sobriety last year. 

Working through the icky stuff or watching it unfold and resolve to work it rather than bolting or just quitting has so far provided opportunities for me to learn and grow into to a human being.  I cherish this site and am very uncomfortable when the waters are rough.  When I don't like what someone else has written it gets me to see how I still want to run the show and get stuck in the muck of resentment that is justified by wanting to be the one who is most right.

Progress, that's it.  I strive for progress and it rarely comes without strife or effort. 

Thank you each and everyone for being here and sharing in sobriety with me.
Truly grateful today,
Angela

I am glad my soon to be ex hgusband is not a member of MIP, lest the REAL conflict start here.... lol