Psychology, Psychiatry, Meds, Sobriety

barisax · Senior Member

Psychology, Psychiatry, Meds, Sobriety

AGO · MIP Old Timer

I have friends that need meds not to go off their rocker, one friend "Lee" after 10 years of sobriety, and being one of the "doing it right, take names and kick ass" guys (said tongue in cheek) was informed that he wasn't sober because of his meds, so he stopped taking them, a few days later a fish informed him he needed to drink to prevent armegeddon, he argued with the fish to no avail, he was yelling at the fish tank and was holding his own until St Peter came and told him to drink, thus began 1.5 years of hell, we would see him walking around with this HUGE knife muttering and threatening people, we were terrified of him, he finally was locked up long enough and forced to take meds until they took hold, that was nearly 20 years ago and he got married last month

He is a beautiful man and a spiritual giant

on his meds

Another friend "james" if he goes off his meds will curl up in the fetal position and not leave his house, with meds it makes it possible for him to function if he works a HARD and thorough program, he is one of my favorite people in the world, and I love him

on his meds

That being said, I think drugs are over-prescribed, I drove an Ambulance for many years and my Uncle was IT for an isolated clinic, those pharm salesmen are no different then snake oil salesmen or liquor salesmen, I believe things like Xanax and Valium are over-prescribed, and even depression and other meds

The thing is, alcoholism "presents" as many different mental illnesses until addressed, and by addressed I don't mean "don't drink and go to meetings" I mean thoroughly working the steps and doing a few years sober, what is left then can be addressed, such as panic attacks, depression etc but until the part that can be cured utilizing steps, proper cognitive therapy, a proper diet, a thorough understanding of oneself via the steps are all addressed much of the time what Doctors and therapists are doing is not allowing the actual issues to be addressed via sobriety before they start throwing out "the god of numb, or the god of dumb" pills around, and quite frankly do more harm then good.

After many years of sobriety I finally went to a psychriatrist and therapist (he is one of the best clinical psychraitrists in dealing with issues with sober alcoholics in the country, he doesn't even take patients any more, just lectures to other psychriatrists and therapists to teach about psychiatry in sobriety and how it is a specialized field) and was diagnosed "counter phobic" which was fine as long as I put myself in harms way, that's how I dealt with it, but once I stopped trying to kill myself (wrecking big trees, riding large waves, racing motorcycles at > 140 mph, doing helicopter cliff rescues) I started having severe anxiety and panic attacks that would wake me up screaming, I took Zoloft for awhile but stopped after maybe 6 months, now I deal with anxiety and panic attacks, and it's no big deal, I breathe, call people, wait them out, and realize they aren't real

funny side note, I was having one on the way to work the other morning having a pretty bad one that lasted a few hours, the moment I put my gear on and placed myself in harms way (climbed 100' up a tree and started wrecking it) my entire body heaved a huge sigh of relief and relaxed

I am not a doctor and stay out of doctors prescriptions, but I will say something about Xanax, Valium and Pot if taken for situational emotional relief and catastrophizing about events that are months away.

I don't need an MD to spot addictive thinking

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Aloha Barisax and Mahalo for the ESH...Today I am of the same mind and practice
after thinking other things and practicing other methods. Clean and Sober have only
one side effect for me...I get to face the picture of my life with my whole self and all
of my assets rather than with pieces.   At 22 years sober I got thrown into a tail
spin by an event that rocked my mind and emotions and though I didn't go back to
self medicating with any easy to get hard stuff I chose to get counseling. There were
no psycologist/behaviorist available so in severe angst which manifested itself in
homicidal ideation I went with what was available who use to love saying "My" drugs
will not hurt you. He was advised I was alcoholic. I've worked in the counseling
industry so I know the picture and the language and the egos and such and I resisted
until I decided not to.   Long story shorter it was my wife keying me into my condition
by asking me a couple months after I started the prescrip "Do you notice how you are
walking down the hallway?"   I took an inventory and flushed the prescripts and notifying
the PsyMD. He warned me not to just cut and run but bleed it out under his care but
I wasn't afraid of the withdrawals which for me a mostly psycological with some mental
and physical side shows.   "It isn't real and it's temporary" was the mind set so I wrapped
myself in a blanket with a book...sat cross legged on my sofa for a week and participated
in the freak show with my HP's arms around me. It isn't real and it's temporary.

In recovery I have learned the mind set "there always are alternatives to mind and
mood altering chemicals...learn and practice the alternatives first".  That has always
worked for me...always with the help of my HP and the stuff my HP has layed across
my recovery path including metaphysical studies and practices, spiritual awareness
and practices and the age old faith stuff.   I know what it means when the fellowship
says, "It works if you work it."

smile

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

I would place them in last resort category if I had not been stuck to the bed with depression and anxiety so crippling and having tried to not take meds and having had this happen again and again....Yeah. Now, I am smart enough to NOT repeat the insanity of going off my meds. Been there, done that...and they work better when not used in conjunction with copious amounts of alcohol (a depressant).

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

I sobered up in AA at 24 years old, when people talked about their depression in the rooms, I secretly thought they just needed to do a better job working the AA program and thought meds where a crutch.

At 40 years old and 16 years sober I started getting some bouts of depression, usually lasting a day or less I shook them off.

Months went by and the depression increased to every day. I went to more meetings, I worked harder to help others, I ran and went to the gym more often, all the things that always worked to bring me out of the "funk" in the past.

Nothing worked, the darkness got worse, I lost interest in everything, I couldn't focus to read a book or article.
I'm a Sales Rep. fighting it off long enough to make a call. Who wants to deal with a depressed salesperson? How am I going to make a living?

Finally went to a therapist and then a Psyciatrist, I couldn't live this way and was willing to try anything.
Was diagnosed with severe depression and given a script for Wellbutrin (same stuff as Zyban used to help people stop smoking).

It has worked wonders for me for the past 8 years and I feel like my old self again.

As Bill W. could attest, chronic depression is a horrible thing. I thank God for the meds that helped me.

Hope this can help someone.

happinessisawarmgun · Veteran Member

meds do work....if you need them, take them :o)

ljc · MIP Old Timer

I wouldnt want to be dependant upon any substance to maintain my well being.

Very well put barisax, I like that and agree with it wholly.

A very good thread here. lots of experience shared and I appreciate that.

barisax · Senior Member

pinkchip wrote:

I would place them in last resort category if I had not been stuck to the bed with depression and anxiety so crippling...

That sounds like last resort to me!

I'm just saying, I never found myself anywhere near there yet I felt the meds were being pushed at me by my therapist. It wasn't the first thing out of her mouth, but it was sometimes the second or third. Maybe I'm more sensitive to it than most, but it seemed like my resistence was being interpreted as denial. Then again, wasn't the first time I had a therapist that was wrong. One of the therapists in my group suggested I was "running away from my problems" when I announced I was leaving the group. After more than 4 years! I told her that running away isn't usually a problem for me, but beating a dead horse - that I can do for years. She got the point.

The frightening thing about severe depression - or any mind-altering drugs prescribed for it - is that sense of uncertainty, loss of control. Even in the mild forms of depression I've dealt with, my brain lies to me. Sober. It's a scary thing to not be able to make your own call. I have many reasons for staying sober - spiritual, emotional, mental, physical, economical, legal...... but from a purely practical standpoint the reason for staying sober is just to have the best chance possible of comprehending reality. Drunk I stand no chance at all. Without the drink, I may feel the fear - but there is a whole lot less TO fear.

Barisax

Lexie · Senior Member

When it is a matter of brain chemistry, rather than attitude, that is causing misery, there is no shame in taking medication. People whose brains are not functioning normally because of a chemical imbalance in the brain cannot simply rely on the program to fix them, any more than someone with diabetes or cancer could.

It's sometimes tricky for people to figure out the source of their misery. The bottom line, though, is that as little as the medical profession knows about the brain, lay people in AA know even less.

Certainly there are doctors who are a bit quick on the draw with the prescription pad, and we want to be cautious about looking for an easy fix when it isn't needed. But there is no particular virtue in unnecessary suffering.

I recently heard of a newly sober AA member who was contemplating suicide and had been prescribed an antidepressant by her doctor, whose sponsor "went ballistic" and told her to throw away the meds. Fortunately, she asked in our online group (a different one) whether she was supposed to follow her sponsor's advice "without question." I referred her to the AA pamphlet on medications that says AA members should not advise other members about medications prescribed by medical professionals. I think a lot of people would be too scared to ask that question.

I wouldn't want to be responsible for causing someone else to suffer, or to take his/her life, because I think I know better than the doctor.

I'm really just musing, here, I know nobody has suggested advising others what meds to take.

janet · Senior Member

Barisax,

Last resort it should always be.

My "chemical dependency" of every sort began, when a doctor prescribed amphetamines to me in the late 70's. He always had a monthly revolving door of people at his office. To beat it all, he was a gynocologist! Reflecting now,that was how he made his big money by keeping us coming back.

I switched addictions several times over the years. From speed to benzo's to alcohol, marijuana was usually there too. Finally drinking became my drug of choice. Marijuana had made my panick attacks and paranoia worse.

I got sober thru AA from 1985-1989 and my panic attcks had become so bad,that I
was in a constant state of anxiety and having up to twenty attacks a day. It was horrible. I couldn't find any doctor to help me at all. I thought it was a physical disorder not psychological. I couldn't tell you how many times I went to ER or had tests or how many doctors I sought seeking help for my problem. I was sick of hearing there's nothing wrong or you may have injured your rib cartilages take this massive amount of Zorprin (super strength asprin,) my ears about rang off then, or I probably was having petty mal siezures and prescribed siezure meds, which I didn't take. It was from from a TV program that I learned about panick attacks. The program referred viewers to a number for the National Institute of Mental Health
in Bethesda, Maryland. I called them and they referred me to a Psychiatrist specializing in Panic Disoder (I too had tried everything from exercise to more AA to meditation,sex, you name it.) This doctor put me on an anti-depressant and guess what no panic! A few weeks later, I became allergic to the drug. I was so upset.
He tried me on another high dose anti-depressant and it worked! Hallelujah! This doctor wanted me to take Xanax also for the milder anxiety I still had at times. I refused and explained that I am an alcoholic. He told me that it was such a mild medication that I couldn't OD easily.

A year later, I tried Xanax briefly. Did okay, but as time wore on I was abusing Xanax just like I had alcohol. I tried letting my friend keep them until I needed one,
that didn't work(they weren't always around and they started taking them too on the sly.) I abused the crap out of Xanax every refill. I got 90 a month, and by mail ordered three month supply 270 of the beasts. I love them though! lol. I finally realized, that I just couldn't take them like a normal person. I finally relapsed back into drinking again,and after a while I began popping a few xanax with the booze.
Well, need I say more than I was worse off than before,because now I was not only drinking I was taking anti-depessants and benzo's too.

Today, I take Prozac and Prozac only. I no longer have panick attacks THANK GOD! As the doctor said, the medicine probably taught my brain to not over fire as it had. But I do have some nervousness, and severe depression, so I continue taking my anti-dpressant (I have had periods that I did not take anything at all, and that is when I became so depressed that life had absolutely no meaning or joy.)

I am happy today, that at least I am sober and can at least tell if I'm sick,or depressed or whatever. While drinking and using other stuff, I was just sick all the time. If I'd of had pnuemonia I couldn't have told the difference.

Today,I am also very glad that there is medicine to treat me, but at the same time I think doctors today are more like legal drug pushers. A pill, a pill, a pill, a pill is the answer to all things.

I am glad I am aware of this, and I hope others can learn from what happened to me.

Thats all folks,

Janet smile

AGO · MIP Old Timer

I'd like to thank everybody of course, in particular, Rob, for his honesty and experience, and especially Janet

Janet, just FYI, I have heard that exact same story about Xanax no less then 50 times, my Dr prescribed them, it was ok at first and then

What it was like
what happened
what it's like now

It's scary, but the truth of the matter is my observation of the people who get medicated out of the gate before they have a chance to actually be sober and work the steps generally speaking don't make it, I mean I can't really think of any that do, other then those that take SSI's? SSRI's? like Prozac etc I don't mean the folks like my friend Lee or my friend James who I described, but those who go to therapists and psychriatrists and get pilled up before they have a chance for 25 years of alcohol and drug abuse to clear out of their system,

I have a good friend that thinks so many meetings are taking away from The Program of AA, he says "Why do the work when you can just go to a meeting? On that note, I mean why do the work when you can just take a pill?

Bad news is doesn't seem to work in the long run in my experience, the folks feel better for a time, so they don't have the desperation to work the steps, then are puzzled when they keep relapsing every 90-120 days or even every few years, "I go to meetings, I don't know what happened"

hmmm panic attacks? well duh you have been numbing your feelings for 20 years with alcohol, they have a lot of making up to do

depressed? well duh, you have been overdosing on a depressant for 20 years (alcohol) and your life SUCKS, otherwise you wouldn't be at AA, you have probably burned every bridge, you are spiritually and emotionally bankrupt and your life is in the toilet, no shit you want to curl up on your couch

it's like give the brain it's year to remap new nueral pathways utilizing the steps and sobriety before deciding the answer is more drugs, my first year was total insanity, every week I was running to the old timers convinced I was clinically depressed or having panic attacks and anxiety attacks, and I get PISSED when they laughed at me and told me, No son, those are just feelings those are what normal people feel all the time, you just haven't felt them for 15 years so A you aren't used to them, and B they have some catching up to you, when you stuff feelings they don't go anywhere, they stay with you, and when you stop running, they catch you.

So in my first year, I had "clinical depression", panic attacks, high drama all the time, I couldn't sleep, and you know what the old timers told me?

It's NORMAL it's like that for ALL of us, WELCOME TO SOBRIETY KID now sit down and shut up until you learn what you are doing here and have worked the steps because until then you have nothing to offer except how crazy you are.

It's not like that any more I guess so now I guess the inmates are in charge? LOL

Tell us how you feeeeeel

Tell us about your day

hahahahaha

Fuck that, I came to AA to learn how to be sober and NOT take drugs if at all possible, which it has been when I get my head out of my ass, my ass off the couch, and take an interest in the world around me and the well being of others

-- Edited by AGO on Wednesday 30th of June 2010 11:29:09 PM

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

Well put.

You need to detox your body for a while and learn to deal with all the emotions as a sober person.

Our standard M.O. as users is to run for a drug or drink when we feel something we don't like.

Growth happens when we use the tools to deal with our emotions without chemicals.

Lexie · Senior Member

One of my favorite bits of advice to newcomers is to expect to feel WEIRD, and simply ride the weirdness out.

It seems very odd to be experiencing all the emotions all of a sudden without our default coping strategy. I'm always hearing people new to sobriety going on about how there must be something WRONG--"I can't sleep, I'm anxious, I can't concentrate, I can't STAND it." Um, actually, you can. And it's only by "standing it," without a drink (or a drug) that you learn to cope with the things (and people) that make you all stressed out. Not to mention that your body chemistry in general is out of whack for awhile when it isn't getting its accustomed "supplement."

Sleep problems, weird dreams, anxiety, mild depression, are all pretty normal in early sobriety, from what I've seen. Usually they subside in a matter of a few weeks at the most. Those are good times to call somebody in the program for a little reassurance that you aren't losing your mind.

AGO · MIP Old Timer

actually it can last indefinately, even years if not addressed (one way is with the steps), we've all seen the "dry drunks" as the most obvious "carrier" of that, I work with a guy that hasn't drank in 12? years, was a total alcoholic, he throws temper tantrums like a child daily, he just never learned sober coping strategies, and when not throwing a temper tantrum, is aware of his behavior and is a super nice guy. He just didn't address his alcoholism except by not drinking, and we all know drinking is but a symptom

The problem is Therapists and Doctors unfamiliar with the phenomenon of PAWS (post acute withdrawal symptoms) and/or lied to about the amount of alcohol actually consumed, truly the only therapists and Psychriatrists I have been to that truly understood were also members of AA themselves, and had seen first hand for years and experienced these symptoms themselves, that is why so many alcoholics are mis-diagnosed I think, sheer inexperience but I have never seen one admit their inexperience, so what happens is they prescribe meds for the symptoms leaving the causes unaddressed, so what happens? Ususally a return to alcohol or someone who is "stark raving sober" a condition we all go through on occasion, but with the steps we are given the tools to find our way out.

PAWS

it is the sobriety-based symptoms, especially post acute withdrawal, that make sobriety so difficult. The presence of brain dysfunction has been documented in 75-95% of the recovering alcoholics/addicts tested. Recent research indicates that the symptoms of post-acute withdrawal associated with alcohol/drug-related damage to the brain may contribute to many cases of relapse.

So abstaining is the leading cause of relapse, strangely enough

Lexie · Senior Member

True--I still experience bouts of inability to concentrate and loss of coordination (not that I was ever Princess Grace). It doesn't last very long--maybe a day--then I will feel fine the next day. From what I hear, this can come and go for years.

Most of the symptoms that hit right after you quit drinking, though, don't linger a long time. They do often recur, but more briefly.

I'm sure there's a wide variation from person to person depending on how much damage the alcohol has caused.

My drinking only spun out of control over the past ten years or so (now in my 50s). Still, I was starting to get scary health symptoms that made me think I was probably one of the people who would suffer serious permanent damage sooner than some. It helped scare me into sobriety.

janet · Senior Member

AGO,

From my experience, the minute you reveal to your doctor/psych that you are an alcoholic aka "chemically dependent" person, many refuse to treat any underlying problem you may have, until you stop drinking or doing whatever mood altering thing your doing.

The fact is that most doctors of all sorts do not get but maybe 4 hours of training on alcoholism and drug addiction. However studies have shown that that has improved some over the past few years, but could use much more improvement.

Another fact is that a large majority of alcoholic's and addicted person do not reveal thier addictions,so doctors tend to throw pills at them, because of thier/doctors busy schedules and tendency to allieviate symtoms in thier patients. Preventive medicine isn't part of thier training.

Instead of vitamins doctor find you may have a defiency in valium,lol.

Well put AGO in your previous post. Alcoholics at least none that I am aware of can take any mind altering drug, or those that give a buzz... without the potential of cross addiction, or just more chronic addiction. As you said before in another post "Pill form alcohol" it is." Too risky for any alcoholic. Call me old school, but I like to call it experience.

Thanks,
Janet

-- Edited by janet on Thursday 1st of July 2010 07:24:39 AM

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

LJC...I suppose you wouldn't want to be dependent on insulin to cure diabetes? Your well being would really suffer if you didn't. Shrug. I think you should be grateful you don't HAVE to rely upon medications for your well being and stop being judgemental of people who do. Believe me, I didn't suddenly pray to God (As a therapist nonetheless) and ask for mental problems so I could take benzodiazepenes. I have prayed for relief and it helps, but does not solve everything...at least not yet. Always a work in progress spiritually here. I don't have a pipeline to god and I am scared of people who say they do.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Barisax, the only times when I think I have made the worst decisions were when I was not taking my meds. And yes, it is scary and it sucks as that this is my reality. I lack certain brain chemicals or the flow is messed up. If I stop taking my meds for a period of time, I will have a depressive episode with 99 percent chance (after having had several before). I do not like taking them, I wish I didn't have to. I have even prayed to not have to. It didn't change reality which is that I DO have to take them.

barisax · Senior Member

pinkchip wrote:

LJC...I suppose you wouldn't want to be dependent on insulin to cure diabetes? Your well being would really suffer if you didn't.

I am concerned about a medication that has the potential to be banned, as has happened over the years with many drugs - even effective ones - if the government decides the risks are too great, or whatever politicking causes this kind of thing to happen. Unlikely this could happen to insulin. Being dependent on a med and then having it banned would be a rough road to go, you'd be back to square one trying other medications and combinations and the ups and downs that go with it.

As I said, I consider it a last resort. Most of the cases that have been described sure sound like they qualify to me. I just found the pushing of meds at me by psychologists and psychiatrists to be out of line when I wasn't suffering anything close to severe symptoms.

Barisax

Aquaman · MIP Old Timer

If this horse ya'll keep beating got any deader, it'll start to stink.
Wait...I think it already does.
Yup...this is one dead, stinky, bloated, maggoty horse.

Enjoy.
Rob