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Post Info TOPIC: Sleeping problems, and a relapse ? am I dependant on drinking? help please


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Sleeping problems, and a relapse ? am I dependant on drinking? help please
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So I have been drinking for my entire 20's i am 26 years old and I had decided enough is enough, I am done with the throwing up I am done with wasting away my life. I was a heavy drinking at least a half a bottle a night, any night. My main problem is since I work for myself with my online business there was no one really watching or paying attention but myself.

Well I thought,I can do anything and I quit drinking cold turkey. That was about 2 weeks ago and I have had a hell of a time sleeping. I sleep for 3 hours wake up for 2 then back down for 3 then tired all day, then cannot sleep at night!

Well this is where it gets worse ,,, I'm embarrassed to say but last night i picked up mikie of whiskey and did my deed with it. I slept like a baby and woke up without the slightest bit of a hangover!


Is this right? am i dependant on alcohol?

I just wanted you thoughts and why this happen.. and tips for sleeping, I picked up jogging which sort of helps but you cannot jog everyday when your starting out.



-- Edited by mandm on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 08:54:28 AM

-- Edited by mandm on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 08:57:54 AM

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Please read pg 20-21 of the AA book. Moderate drinkers have little or no trouble giving up liquor if they have good reason for it. Heavy drinkers need medical or psychiatric help to stop but they can also recover. Real alcoholics however, once they start drinking cannot control the amount of liquor they consume. Also a real alcoholic cannot stay away from a drink even when they honestly and sincerely want to. We are powerless over alcohol. The book says we are without defense against the 1st drink. If you read the AA book and the description of the alcoholic chances are you might not be an alcoholic. You might be a problem drinker in which case the normal medical treatment might fix you up. If however you are a real alcoholic, ONLY a spiritual experience would be able to relieve you of your alcoholism and AA makes that possible through it's 12 steps of recovery.
I hope this helps you.

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Well i guess i may not be dependant I do have a problem with starting and stoping. I usually stop when i'm done.

I find myself cycling through a simlar pattern. i drink heavy don't want to drink ever agian go 1 or two weeks then get a craving and start the cycle all over agian.

but I don't want to have that one day anymore.

and I just thought it was odd the amount that I drank that would normally make the average person the sick since I consumed a mikie in the course of 3 hours. With absoloutly no side effects the next day.




-- Edited by mandm on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 10:58:38 AM

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mandm wrote:

Well i guess i may not be dependant I do have a problem with starting and stoping. I usually stop when i'm done.

I find myself cycling through a simlar pattern. i drink heavy don't want to drink ever agian go 1 or two weeks then get a craving and start the cycle all over agian.

but I don't want to have that one day anymore.

and I just thought it was odd the amount that I drank that would normally make the average person the sick since I consumed a mikie in the course of 3 hours. With absoloutly no side effects the next day.




-- Edited by mandm on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 10:18:27 AM



The amount we drink has nothing to do with being an Alcoholic although many of us myself included had vastly greater tolerance to alcohol then normal drinkers do. In my case I was fully functional drinking a quart of 100 proof bourbon a day.† That did not make me an alcoholic.†† What makes me an alcoholic is once I start I cannot reliably predict the outcome.††

In AA we say it is not how much or how often you drink but what happens when you do drink.

Larry,
-------------------------
Once you are a
Pickle
You can't go back to being a
Cucumber



-- Edited by Larry_H on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 10:33:15 AM

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hEY mandm,welcome, YOU HAVE REACHED PART OF OUR FIRST STEP,YOUR LIFE SEEMS TO BE UNMANAGEABLE..aRE YOU POWERLESS OVER ALCOHOL? only you can†search inside for that answer.....Are you ready to stop by a meeting,pick up some literature,give yourself a break?We can do a lot of rationalizing about well if we do this then im okay with that,and I'll just take a little so I can sleep or take the edge off..I'll stop for a week and prove† I dont really have a problem and on and on.10 YEARS LATER ,YOU MAY BE GOING ,i GUESS 'THEM SIDE EFFECTS" ARE SHOWING UP NOW.it only took me around 25 years to know that "yes sir I must never drink alcohol again,Ive tried everything but that,,, and nothing else worked.once I drank I could not stop until the lights went out,,,,..But putting down the drug is just the beginning,you can then get into the solution by working the 12 steps and finding help of a †a spiritual nature..come in,the waters fine!!!learn about yourself and your illness...hope to hear back from you...smile

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well all i know is when i do drink i always drink more then planned, I always hide my drinking. I don't understand why i have this craving to drink i find my self to be a pretty stand up guy, my grandfarther was an alcoholic, and I know its in my jeans, he is an Italian man that doesn't speak english well, he was hospitalized for drinking and the doctor after told him he could have a beer if he wanted to. he told me " Why would i want one beer, I want all of it or nothing."

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Thats the kind of alcoholic I am. Give me all I want or forget it! Im fine as long as I don;t pick up that first drink! Stick around mandm.....there is alot to be revealed here on MIP! Welcome!

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so do you all actually go to aa meeting ? and if so how often. I guess no one says i want to go to one right?


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Aloha Mandm and another welcome to you.† I am another chemically tolerant
alcoholic and still alcoholic which for me means I have the allergy to it (my mind
body, spirit and emotions react is very non-healthy ways after I drink) and the
compulsion to use it especially as a first solution to many of my problems.

You use alcohol to get to sleep...did that recommendation come from your doctor?
Are you better off mind, body, spirit and emotions as a consequence from drinking.
I gather that the answer to that is considerably closer to no than yes because of
your out of the comfort zone reaching out to other recovering people for help. Keep
coming back.† The truth is that you will have to keep looking for more help and that
is what most honest and sincere alcoholics do and what I was taught.† Some members
of AA settle the question quickly and others take longer.† I am analytical so it took
me a while to enter the rooms of AA for good.

Alcohol is not a food source or a health food.† It is a mind and mood altering
chemical it can and does put the drinker to sleep because it is powerful enough
to penetrate the blood/brain layer and just go after the CNS Central Nervous System
and start pulling plugs.

You seem to have created the habit of using alcohol to put yourself to sleep and it
probably takes more now to do that than you first started...Alcoholism is progressive
it gets worse never better and while it is putting yourself to sleep it is also doing
other unhealthy stuff you are not aware of.† For me that was turning me green while
it shut my filtering system down without first notifying me.† Alcohol is anesthetic and
that contributes to killing your ability to feel and put you to sleep at the same time.

There's more and you need to keep coming back to hear it along with how do you
stop and make more intellegent healthy solutions for yourself.†

Go talk to your doctor...call the nearest substance abuse center and ask them for
information about sleep without the use of alcohol...stick around here...there is lots
you can do along with;† Don't drink that first one and give the program a try.† Yes
many of us go to meetings or still go to meetings and hang around to help new
comers try to figure things out without going to a bottle to just turn things off until
the next time.

Your post described how I slept last night...off and on.† Worry on the subconscious
level mostly is what causes that for me.† Sometimes I take an OTC pain pill with
a PM/sleep aid in it and that isn't a miracle cure and I have also found out lately
that eating popcorn† one hour or so before going to bed does the trick...go figure
but it worked for the program person that passed it on and it worked for me to.

Alcohol shouldn't be the first choice...there are lots of much better alternatives.

In support smile

Actually I do go to AA meetings.† It is where I learned how to live alcohol free
and reconstruct a life that alcohol had first put to sleep and then tried to kill.
Alcoholism is a fatal disease if not arrested by total abstinence.

-- Edited by Jerry F on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 12:37:17 PM

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Welcome to MIP mandm. The only question I can answer for certain is yes, I absolutely go to AA. I try and make 5 meetings a week, but always no less than 3, depending on my work schedule. No one should tell you that AA is the only way, but it's the only way that worked for me, and I tried EVERYTHING. I don't go to AA today to quit drinking...I've already done that. I go to my meetings today to help me learn how to live a good, clean, and sober life one day at a time. The friends I have made in AA would do just about anything for me today, obviously within reason. For this alcoholic, AA is a way of life that helps me be the person I want to be.

Stick around and you might just be able to answer your own questions one day.

Brian

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Ruadh gu brath



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I just wanted to say i think amazing at what people are doing on here. I think i will stick around I've messaged a couple of your privately and read some of the bio's it makes a lot of sense. I don't think i will attend a meeting, but I do think by going onto boards like this will give me the legs to walk away from alcohol. I know i don't need it. But i do need some otc meds for the sleep. I don't want to be on this message board all night long! ; 0

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Yes mandm.....I go to AA meetings. They are WONDERFUL!!! Give one a try and it will help to answer sooo many questions you may have. Good Luck!

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I would also suggest trying out an AA meeting. Find an open one and give it a shot. You might find some people like you.

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Ruadh gu brath



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I started drinking because of insomnia. A glass of wine before bed 10 years ago turned into 2 bottles eventually... tolerance builds up, of course. The irony is, after telling myself for many years that I couldn't stop drinking because "well, a person has to sleep!" I am sleeping much better now. Initially I had some insomnia but it passed, and now I feel so much more refreshed in the morning because I have had "real" sleep rather than an alcohol-induced "relaxed" state that inhibits REM sleep, which is important for real rest. That's true even if I get 5-6 hours without drinking than if I got 8-9 drinking.

Hang in there, you can do this. And I also think AA is a great program and encourage you to go to a meeting just to see what it's like.

GG

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Welcome

Insomnia is the norm at first for many when they quit drinking, getting OTC meds or even scrip meds will just be switching one addiction for another, in most cases the person ends up addicted to pills and an alcoholic, so have 2 monkeys to kick, but it's something one usually has to find out for oneself, personally I have zero ability to learn from other peoples experiences, that is something else many of us have in common, which is why in large part why AA exists

Like Larry says, how much or how often we drink has zero to do with whether we are an alcoholic, or who drinks more then us or less, alcoholism is a self diagnosed disease, mainly because until we admit it to ourself it does no good anyway

so you're at the turning point, there are now two ways to go to find out how bad or how advanced your "condition" is as far as drinking goes

One: Keep drinking and watch it just get worse and worse, because that is the one thing we can absolutely promise you with mathematical certainty, alcoholism is chronic and progressive, it gets nothing but worse, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, but it will always progress if you work for it (keep drinking)

This is the path I and just about every single person I have ever met in AA took, which, strangely enough, is why we are in AA

Two: Stop, go to a meeting, listen, see if you can identify with any stories, go to more then one, if you consider yourself "high end" go to meetings in wealthy neighborhoods since you still have a place and a job and stuff

My tolerance kept going up and up and up, I could drink 2-3 hard drinkers under the table a night bartending and finish my shift and then go partying

until one day it stopped and I started blacking out on the first shot, OR I couldn't get drunk no matter how much I drank, I never knew what was going to happen

I was around 25 when that started happening

so keep drinking or go to a few meetings, eother way you'll have your answers more quickly then you'd like actually haha

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Well i did good my first night, I know you don't recommend the over the counter meds but I had to do something I cannot take being up all night. I won't take them unless I need them.

so i'm on day 2 of being sober which is great, I'm usually good until day 5 - 7 then i start telling myself just one then one leads to 3 then to 8 or whatever i stop counting.

One of the main reasons I don't consider AA is I know it heavily go along the lines of there being a higher power and they also to encourage you to tell someone. I've looked at the book in the library before.

For religion is not my forte and i don't want anyone knowing i have a problem with drinking because I don't want to appear weak. I'd rather them just think I quite drinking for a health choice.

Actually I was doing super good last month I went three weeks without drinking then it was my cousins graduation from law school, and an open bar and the stupid bartender kept giving me cokes in a little kid glass, so everyone was like m get a drink, well the next day I had to walk to get my car.



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mandm wrote:

Well i did good my first night, I know you don't recommend the over the counter meds but I had to do something I cannot take being up all night. I won't take them unless I need them.

so i'm on day 2 of being sober which is great, I'm usually good until day 5 - 7 then i start telling myself just one then one leads to 3 then to 8 or whatever i stop counting.

One of the main reasons I don't consider AA is I know it heavily go along the lines of there being a higher power and they also to encourage you to tell someone. I've looked at the book in the library before.

For religion is not my forte and i don't want anyone knowing i have a problem with drinking because I don't want to appear weak. I'd rather them just think I quite drinking for a health choice.

Actually I was doing super good last month I went three weeks without drinking then it was my cousins graduation from law school, and an open bar and the stupid bartender kept giving me cokes in a little kid glass, so everyone was like m get a drink, well the next day I had to walk to get my car.





It's said you can't save your ass and your face at the same time, it appears you are more worried about what others think then you are with addressing this thing, it also appears you feel you can do this on your own, right on, we've all been there, well give it a shot, see how it goes for you.

You seem to have this drinking pattern of quitting for awhile then starting again pretty wired, but it's beginning to worry you because you are here, you are beginning to see you don't have as much control over your drinking as you though, but you still aren't quite desperate enough to actually change anything.

Right on, recognize that, we all been there too

I am not religious in the slightest, and I was rabidly, and I mean RABIDLY anti-Christian when I got sober, today I am tolerant but still not religious, this is a spiritual program, not a religious one, many of us are atheists, agnostic, taoist, buddhist, or just really like light bulbs, what we all are though however is open minded, alcohol made us so, perhaps it will be that way for you.

So you can go periods without drinking, so could most of us, alcoholism has nothing to do with being physically dependent or physically addicted to alcohol, although frequently that is a symptom, it's like being pregnant, in the later stages it shows more but you are pregnant the entire time

OK, I am going to conjecture here, you will go for a period of time and not drink, and one day in the next three weeks you will wake up after drinking, you will be a little baffled and confused, you will have no idea how this happened, but you will get right back on that horse and try again, you will last maybe a week before you drink again, at this point you will, in the back of your mind start knowing something is wrong, like really wrong, but you will push that thought aside with the threadbare idea you can quit on your own, over the next month you will find yourself hammered (drunk) repeatedly, you will wake up many mornings asking yourself how it happened...while you will tell yourself stories and excuses, the truth is, you won't know, my experience is when I tried to quit it "rubberbanded" as in I would see what I thought was progress, then I would stumble, try again, and then within a shorter period of time I would metaphorically fall down a flight of steps, hitting every step on the way down.

Once this has a hold we are a baffled lot, what I suggest is keep doing what you are doing, if it works, great, if it doesn't, I'll see you in two months if you are willing to set prejudice aside for a few minutes and accept you need help.

So I suggest you cut copy paste this, or email it to yourself, and if after 60 days read it again, if what I stated happens, as in verbatim maybe you will say to yourself, hmmm, this guy seems to know this drinking game pretty good, I wonder if he knows how to quit, and if he will help me.

If it doesn't and you are able to quit or moderate on your own, my hat is off to you, sincerely, I wish you nothing but success and if there is anything I can do, please feel free to PM me



-- Edited by AGO on Thursday 24th of June 2010 07:21:27 PM

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You will likely start drinking if you don't attend meetings. You have the genetics and the cravings. Sounds like you are minimizing really negative consequences of drinking to your health and finances and it is getting progressively worse. You are playing with fire. You already admitted to having the halmark features of alcoholism. With that said, if you had cancer, would you want to look at online cures and read about them or actually go get treatment? Don't play around with a deadly disease and don't wait until you are so messed up that it is 10 times harder to recover. My drinking was the same as yours in my 20s and it progressed to being totally out of control by my mid 30s... Like all addictions, you usually have to nurse it for a while in order to get really sick and dependent...Trust me, it will happen if you keep playing around. This forum is no cure and only is mean to be a stepping stone for newcomers to ask us about meetings and to bolster courage to go. It also helps those of us who already have a program of recovery bounce ideas of each other and share our experiences to give each other hope.

I had a stint where I quit drinking for 4 months on my own before AA. When I started again, I was miraculously able to drink daily without feeling nearly as sick as I did (for a while)... What I know now is that the disease was doing pushups and getting stronger when I was not drinking. My ability to drink even more without getting hungover was only a further symptom of my alcoholism. It is when I started drinking again after those 4 months of "sobriety on my own" that I really crashed and burned and I had nowhere else to turn but AA. So, going on my own experience, I would tell you to get serious, stop doing the experiments with alcohol, and start working on recovery. How bad do you want things to get? Oh, and by the way I love going to meetings now and so do most of the other people who are regular AA members here (I am speaking for them which I shouldn't - but after acheiving some sobriety, meetings are a place to stay centered, be spiritual, and to see like minded fellows that we have come to care about. There is nothing but positivity in that).

Mark

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I'm fairly confident that that alcoholism is not a disease but a result of poor personal choices, Which is why I believe i will be able to battle it on my own. For example no babys are every addicted to drinking or children in elementary school.

When I was in highschool I started conditioning myself that I needed to drink to be cool. Every weekend we would all drink out faces off and it was fun. This started the conditioning that I have to drink to a point complet drunkness because that is what you do. i also find that I have an addictive personality in general. Meaning whatever I like I will get addicted too. In high school I was also addicted to fitness and I couldn't stop but then changed when i made it to college and I didn't have the time too.

I have done much research in this and there are mixed reviews some people believe it is a disease and some people believe its the result of poor personal choice. Poor self control.

I do realize that i have poor self control but I have been testing my self control muscle.

I started an jogging program. 6 weeks ago I couldn't jog for 1 min now i'm up to 25 mins of straight jogging when i tell myself I cannot jog anymore i put the machine faster. This fitness also encourage me not to drink because I want to jog and when I drink it hinders my ability.

secondly I was a big lover of fast food, even though i work from home many times I would run out for a slice of pizza. However I have come tot he conclusion to not eat out much or only once per week, and there have been a couple of time I have even walked into the pizza shop before I stopped myself and told myself no.

the same can be applied to alcohol. I want to be able to drink, I just need to teach myself that 1 drink is ok. I'm just conditioned that once I have one i need 3. I desided that after a few weeks of sobrity am going to start treating myself to a single can a beer and not allow myself more than that, I will have fun with that one can and teach my body that it is ok to only drink one.

I will freely admit i am a person of poor self control which is why i fall into these drinking patterns. I need to tell myself no, and come up with what is an acceptable, everyone is differn't.

I also started reading, giving me something else to do at night which doesn't involve drinking and it allows me escape to another world.




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I could also even take this further to say that my grandfather also helped condition me that this is cool and what you do, instead of saying its genetic.


When a boy grows up to abuse his wife because his dad abused him, people do not say that its genetic to beat your wife, its a learn action.





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I would encourage you to go to the AA Big Book online at

http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_tableofcnt.cfm

Read chapter 3 "More about Alcoholism" and see if you find there are any similarities to your last two postings.

Also read "The Doctors Opinion"† It explains the disease concept quite well.

Larry,
-----------------------†



-- Edited by Larry_H on Friday 25th of June 2010 01:12:11 PM

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mandm wrote:

I'm fairly confident that that alcoholism is not a disease but a result of poor personal choices, Which is why I believe i will be able to battle it on my own. For example no babys are every addicted to drinking or children in elementary school.



You sure about that?

My experience refutes that, both with drinking and smoking pot from about 10 years old on and seeing it with countless others

Anyhow, far out, you have your views on drinking, I won't try to change your mind or tell you what you should do, I do however have some questions:

(1) You go to Mexico and everyone says don't drink the water, you notice the natives drink it and seem fine, you figure it must be another urban myth, so you drink the water

The inevitable occurs, Montezuma's Revenge has never been so terrible, as you do the Mexican two step version of the 10 yard dash to ole' el Bano clutching your ass cheeks for dear life dreading the next fiery explosion...

STOP

Can you use your will power to stop this diarrhea?

Now go jogging...does that help your diarrhea?

(2) You start smoking cigarettes although there is plenty of evidence it causes lung cancer, there is equal evidence it doesn't (strangely enough in research funded by Tobacco Companies, but that's neither here nor there) and you get lung cancer, so you stop smoking...

Does the lung cancer go away?

Can you use willpower to make your lung cancer go away?

Now go jogging, did your lung cancer go away?

(3) You are a chocolate eatin , twinky eating Pepsi guzzlin pancakes with syrup breakfast kind of guy, dessert every night, sweets sweets and more sweets, but you get adult onset Diabetes...

Can you use willpower to manufacture Insulin? When you start crashing and going into keto acidosis and you can't think and you start to panic...you can't think, your motor skills are shot, you stagger your vision is blurry, and you can't even remember your name, as you slip into the diabetic coma

STOP

remain calm, you don't need that shot, you have WILLPOWER

OK, willpower isn't working, go jogging...did that help?

A disease is an unhealthy condition of mind or body characterized by certain recognizable signs and symptoms, in alcoholism that sign more then drinking is denial. Denial is when people lie to themselves and others about their drinking, by minimizing, by telling stories, by comparing to people that are worse, by having what is known as "personal exceptionalism"....

Click here to see what it looks like to suffer from "personal exceptionalism"

I know people that drink like fish that aren't alcoholics, I know people that rarely touch the stuff that are, how much you drink isn't a good indication of whether you are an alcoholic or not, the signs are:

If you try to quit and can't (mainly because you start rationalizing and planning your next drink within 48 hours of quitting, so you can say to yourself you COULD have quit if you REALLY tried) and you set a deadline, but somehow that deadline keeps getting moved up until you end up drinking exactly when you were going to anyway, right on pattern, one week, 3 weeks, whatever, but you COULD have quit if you tried....

riiiigggghhhht....

or

when you drink do you lose control of how much you drink, like you go to have one, but then you have 3, next thing you know you drink enough to put an entire knitting circle in the hospital with alcohol poisoning, sleep like a baby, then are proud you don't have a hangover (not every time ANY time, normal drinkers NEVER lose control, except maybe their bachelor party, like once or twice in their life IF THAT!!!! If a normal drinker goes to have one drink, many times they don't even finish that one.

Another HUGE red flag, as in oh god I'm well and truly fucked now is the guy who quits then within 2-3 days is already planning his next drink and telling people how it's going to be different this time, that guy is SCREWED every. single. time.

That guy is an alcoholic.

every time.

Might as well walk in to a meeting shitfaced drunk with a fifth of Jack and try to convince everyone there you don't have a drinking problem with like lights and a siren on your hat and a Tshirt that says "I don't have a drinking problem, I drink, I get drunk, I fall down, no problem"

We feel alcoholism is a condition of mind AND body, as in take someone with an addictive personality. give them a substance that makes them feel good, let them drink for an undetermined amount of time, and they cross an invisible line, they become a pickle, and once they cross that line, there is no going back to being a cucumber


mandm wrote:
I want to be able to drink, I just need to teach myself that 1 drink is ok. I'm just conditioned that once I have one i need 3. I desided that after a few weeks of sobrity am going to start treating myself to a single can a beer and not allow myself more than that, I will have fun with that one can and teach my body that it is ok to only drink one.
_________________________________________________________


Most of us have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics. No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.


Ding ding ding we have a winner!!!!!

Let me know how that whole "just one beer, and just occasionally" experiment works out for you, serious, I want to talk to you after you have tried that for 6 weeks and find out how many times that was actually the case (no pun intended)

I have a bet, a challenge if you will, if you can drink 2 drinks and JUST 2 drinks every night for 10 days I will take my hat off to you and declare you non-alcoholic

We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such intervals usually brief were inevitably followed by still less control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period we get worse, never better.

We are like men who have lost their legs; they never grow new ones. Neither does there appear to be any kind of treatment which will make alcoholics of our kind like other men. We have tried every imaginable remedy. In some instances there has been brief recovery, followed always by a still worse relapse. Physicians who are familiar with alcoholism agree there is no such thing a making a normal drinker out of an alcoholic. Science may one day accomplish this, but it hasn't done so yet.

Despite all we can say, many who are real alcoholics are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of self- deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right-about- face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!

Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums we could increase the list ad infinitum.

All those things listed there are what ALCOHOLICS do to try to control their drinking

things like
jog
drink only beer

Reading the Book "Alcoholics Anonymous" at the library

limiting the number of drinks

NORMAL drinkers don't do ANY of those things BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO, IF THEY WANT TO STOP OR MODERATE, THEY DO

It takes no thought or effort

So go ahead and keep doing what you are doing, like I said in the beginning of this thread, there are 2 ways to find out if you are an alcoholic or not, and truthfully, the best way is

just keep drinking and trying to quit

Then remember this thread and reread it when you can't, remember in AA there are poeple that know how to quit drinking, hell save my email AGOwston@gmail.com, write me when you are ready, I will always be ready to help you if you should ever decide you can't do this on your own, save it on your computer, it may be 2 months, it may be 2 years, hell it may be 10, but after reading your last 2 posts I am looking forward to getting to know you a bit better, you and I have a lot in common, more then you know smile

The thing is, you think what you think, and you're gonna do what you're gonna do, but from here on out, every time you wake up after drinking, every time you go to have one or two, and then you look up and it's one or two (in the morning) and you have been drinking all night, I want you to think about what I said, every time you lose control, every time you attempt to moderate and can't, every time you try to quit but find yourself drinking again within 10 days, I want you to remember what I wrote...

then email me

I can wait



-- Edited by AGO on Friday 25th of June 2010 10:12:51 PM

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Of course babies are not born drinking. Babies are not born with schizophrenia either...it takes a certain amount of stress and genetic predisposition for many diseases to go from being predisposed to actively suffering. Good luck with your decision though. I've known a few people that stopped drinking on their own but they were pretty crazy, had no serenity, and were really angry people for the most part...

For any one of us with abnormal drinking patterns, 1 beer is simply not going to be enjoyable...EVER. I tried that repeatedly and it was only ever disappointing and each time I felt this gut burning urge to drink more and was so disappointed and empty feeling when that 1 drink was gone. 1 drink does NOTHING for me but make me want to drink 23492340239482 drinks. That is the nature of the beast.

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AGO:

I like your bluntness its appreciated,

First of all with your several examples even though they where all quite amusing they don't quite compare. When I first started this thread, i was convince that alcoholism was a disease and that I had no choice but to face up to my demons and start going to aa or start doing something. I had never voiced my problems with alcohol out loud before, this thread is about the first time I had mentioned something.

but as I started talking and reading the story's and really thinking about drinking, I came to the realization that it is not a disease, but a form of condition. I know this is where a lot of people on here will want to say differently. Its much easier to say I have a condition that makes me not able to drink then to say, that I have a lack of self control and when combined with alcohol which hinders your judgment, its a colossal mess. All of which is my fault. When you blame something else its taking the easy way out. ( i know this may offend some of you). And why does everyone give this higher power all the credit. Your the one that should take the credit for your success!

The examples you gave of smoking and drinking the water are examples of real sickness in which will power alone obviously you have no control over, however it does make me thinking of great people like Lance Armstrong who go on to win the Tour after being diagnosed with testicular cancer, and is now cured, do you think his will to live and to push himself had anything to do with this? ( mind you thats a whole another thread)

I do realize i have a problem with drinking, I would agree that as soon as i have my first drink I feel the pull to have the second then to finish the bottle. I really feel myself wanting to pour and finish the second glass so i can get to my fourth, but I don't belive its because I have a disease but I've conditioned myself to like the feeling of drunkenness, that in combination with the fact that it hinders my judgment. As well as my past every since I was 16 years old all my friends thought about getting "fcked up"

Do you think a person that over eats and is obese has a disease as well? or is it a poor choice. What about a person is a bad driver and gets into car accidents all the time because they get on there cell phone every time they get into there car, this person cannot not answer there phone when it rings, when it rings they have to look to see whos calling,and they "have to answer it" and because of this lack of control and conditioning they get into an accident. Disease?

After really thinking about it I decided I don't want to be that person who cannot have a drink. I need to teach myself that drinking is not a way out of my problems, also that you can enjoy a drink without enjoying a bottle. For example drinking alone is not acceptable, ever. There are better things to do with your time like jogging then drinking your face off which is what I would typically do when I was bored. My girlfriend would leave the house to go to the barn, and I would think ah why not drink a quick six pack before she gets back, I actually got used to doing thing the next that that I apparently agreed to the night before because i was wasted. She never knew I had been drinking, I was good at keeping face. Then when she went for her night shower I'd finish off any drinking that I had left. All of this not acceptable, its my fault for thinking it was, I obviously was able to control myself when she is around I wasn't sneaking to get a drink, I chose when to drink, I had control.

And further more going back to my grand father who was also my drinking buddy when i was home from school on the weekends. He was a heavy drinking his entire life. from 20 - 68 my grandma always complained about his drinking being to the extreme and even as a kid I remember it always being extreme. He was hospitalized a few years ago for because of it, he had turned yellow because his liver was shot. He has not touched a drink since. I guess he cured himself of his disease with will power. or did he suddenly condition himself and reprogram his brain.

I think all of you that have been clean and sober because you have reprogrammed your brain should be proud of yourself for teaching yourselves your acceptable forum of drinking.



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Right on, I am glad you aren't offended, that was an iffy post

Everything you say is absolutely true

for some people

for some of us it's different, but I respect and validate your opinion

If those things turn out to be true for you, that is fantastic, if the things I wrote turn out to be true for you, that is fantastic too, because you have my email, either way I'd like to hear from you in 6 months, then a year to hear how you are, if drinking climbs on top of you, please remember I don't view alcoholism as a moral or character flaw, so please, don't be ashamed, that is what will kill you dead

Keep us posted how it goes, the only thing we ask for is honesty, if you are able to have just one on occasion, we want to hear about it, if you aren't, we'd like to hear about that too, anyone who posts here and tells the truth helps countless lurkers that are too scared to introduce themselves, if they read "their" story it helps immensley

Be well

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mandm wrote:


(1) I do realize i have a problem with drinking, I would agree that as soon as i have my first drink I feel the pull to have the second then to finish the bottle. I really feel myself wanting to pour and finish the second glass so i can get to my fourth, but I don't belive its because I have a disease but I've conditioned myself to like the feeling of drunkenness, that in combination with the fact that it hinders my judgment.

After really thinking about it I decided I don't want to be that person who cannot have a drink. I need to teach myself that drinking is not a way out of my problems, also that you can enjoy a drink without enjoying a bottle. For example drinking alone is not acceptable, ever. There are better things to do with your time like jogging then drinking your face off which is what I would typically do when I was bored. My girlfriend would leave the house to go to the barn, and I would think ah why not drink a quick six pack before she gets back, I actually got used to doing thing the next that that I apparently agreed to the night before because i was wasted. She never knew I had been drinking, I was good at keeping face. Then when she went for her night shower I'd finish off any drinking that I had left. All of this not acceptable, its my fault for thinking it was, I obviously was able to control myself when she is around I wasn't sneaking to get a drink, I chose when to drink, I had control.

_________________________________________________________________________

Just FYI, you have just about every sign and symptom of alcoholism there is, the list is large, and you have it, as a matter of fact I can't think of a single symptom of alcoholism you don't have, reading your posts have been a bit like some Monty Python sketch where a guy walks into a Doctor's Office complaining of a "slight discomfort" with his ass on fire then when the Dr. tries to explain, "well this is easy, your ass is on fire" he argues with the Dr. "No it's not" and just goes on and on, it's that funny

drinking one drink that makes you want 3 that makes you already planning drink 10

check

goes to an AA site to get help and support quitting drinking and within 48 hours decides he's not that bad and starts trying to justify his drinking to a bunch of sober people that have quit drinking

check

abnormal tolerance to alcohol and the ability to drink tons without a hangover

check

inability to quit and within 48 hours loses the desire to quit

check

Hiding drinking, lying about your drinking, and sneaky drinking around spouse

check

So is she not around any more? If she is gone, was it due to your drinking?

So I have been drinking for my entire 20's i am 26 years old and I had decided enough is enough, I am done with the throwing up I am done with wasting away my life.

What happened to that?

ooohhh, yeah, that was yesterday

I mean you are literally textbook, If I was training a sponsee to look for the signs and symptoms of textbook denial and active alcoholism I would refer him to this thread, the self justification, the rationalizations, the inability to enjoy and control their drinking, the remorse and saying they would quit and within 48 hours already planning the next drinking attempt, every one of which is listed as symtoms of alcoholism (jogging, switching to beer, limiting the number of drinks, reading inspirational books,† etc ad nauseum)

All this at age 26? You'll be sober by 30 or dead by 40, I actually think you'll be sober since you have been worrying about your drinking and researching it for quite some time by the sounds of it.

My main problem is since I work for myself with my online business there was no one really watching or paying attention but myself.

Your main problem is you are an alcoholic, and every alcoholic in the world has a story what his main problem is that strangely enough is related to his drinking while having nothing to do with his drinking "if you had my problems, you'd drink too" "if you worked and lived alone you'd drink too"

I mean did you read this?

The first casualty of addiction, like that of war, is the truth. At first the addict merely denies the truth to himself. But as the addiction, like a malignant tumor, slowly and progressively expands and invades more and more of the healthy tissue of his life and mind and world, the addict begins to deny the truth to others as well as to himself. He becomes a practiced and profligate liar in all matters related to the defense and preservation of his addiction, even though prior to the onset of his addictive illness, and often still in areas as yet untouched by the addiction, he may be scrupulously honest.

First the addict lies to himself about his addiction, then he begins to lie to others. Lying, evasion, deception, manipulation, spinning and other techniques for avoiding or distorting the truth are necessary parts of the addictive process. They precede the main body of the addiction like military sappers and shock troops, mapping and clearing the way for its advance and protecting it from hostile counterattacks.

Because addiction by definition is an irrational, unbalanced and unhealthy behavior pattern resulting from an abnormal obsession, it simply cannot continue to exist under normal circumstances without the progressive attack upon and distortion of reality resulting from the operation of its propaganda and psychological warfare brigades. The fundamentally insane and unsupportable thinking and behavior of the addict must be justified and rationalized so that the addiction can continue and progress.

One of the chief ways the addiction protects and strengthens itself is by a psychology of personal exceptionalism which permits the addict to maintain a simultaneous double-entry bookkeeping of addictive and non-addictive realities and to reconcile the two when required by reference to the unique, special considerations that ŗat least in his own mind- happen to apply to his particular case.

The form of the logic for this personal exceptionalism is:

    • Under ordinary circumstances and for most people X is undesirable/irrational;
    • My circumstances are not ordinary and I am different from most people;
    • Therefore X is not undesirable/irrational in my case - or not as undesirable/irrational as it would be in other cases.

Armed with this powerful tool of personal exceptionalism that is a virtual "Open Sesame" for every difficult ethical conundrum he is apt to face, the addict is free to take whatever measures are required for the preservation and progress of his addiction, while simultaneously maintaining his allegiance to the principles that would certainly apply if only his case were not a special one.

In treatment and rehabilitation centers this personal exceptionalism is commonly called "terminal uniqueness." The individual in the grip of this delusion is able to convince himself though not always others that his circumstances are such that ordinary rules and norms of behavior, rules and norms that he himself concurs with when it comes to other people, do not fairly or fully fit himself at the present time and hence must be bent or stretched just sufficiently to make room for his special needs. In most cases this plea for accommodation is acknowledged to be a temporary one and accompanied by a pledge or plan to return to the conventional "rules of engagement" as soon as circumstances permit. This is the basic mindset of "I'll quit tomorrow" and "If you had the problems I do you'd drink and drug, too!"

Or this?

Most of us have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics. No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.

Despite all we can say, many who are real alcoholics are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of self- deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic.

Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums we could increase the list ad infinitum.

or have you seen this:

Our behavior is as absurd and incomprehensible with respect to the first drink as that of an individual with a passion, say, for jay-walking. He gets a thrill out of skipping in front of fast-moving vehicles. He enjoys himself for a few years in spite of friendly warnings. Up to this point you would label him as a foolish chap having queer ideas of fun. Luck then deserts him and he is slightly injured several times in succession. You would expect him, if he were normal, to cut it out. Presently he is hit again and this time has a fractured skull. Within a week after leaving the hospital a fast-moving trolley car breaks his arm. He tells you he has decided to stop jay-walking for good, but in a few weeks he breaks both legs.

On through the years this conduct continues, accompanied by his continual promises to be careful or to keep off the streets altogether. Finally, he can no longer work, his wife gets a divorce and he is held up to ridicule. He tries every known means to get the jaywalking idea out of his head. He shuts himself up in an asylum, hoping to mend his ways. But the day he comes out he races in front of a fire engine, which breaks his back. Such a man would be crazy, wouldn't he?

Doesn't it worry you even a little bit that the last 3 quotes are written about alcoholics and you have displayed every characteristic of them in this thread alone? Just a few short paragraphs and you are all over these quotes....

In your research did you notice that just about every single person that decided alcoholism was poor self control was either not an alcoholic, not an addiction specialist or Dr., or, actually in 999.9999% of the time an alcoholic justifying his continued drinking, which is like fixing a headache with a hammer but there's logic for you huh?

"I could quit drinking if I chose too, I just choose not to even though my life is in the crapper because of it....."

that's OK, I am only saying this because the "real" alcoholic is absolutely unable to stop on self will or self knowledge, I'd like you to keep that in mind when you can't stop, I am not "labeling" you as such, I am saying you have every sign and symptom of alcoholism known to man and you should be aware of it, I don't mean just one or two, I mean every. single. one. so if you can't stop drinking or moderate on your own, which by the way, I have bad news for you, you won't, your ass is well and truly on fire, get help, there's no shame in it whatever you want to call it, condition or disease, the "official" AA line is it isn't a "disease" but a malady, illness, or "condition", the "disease model" is purely the AMA actually based on AA's findings actually

The truth is I am willing to bet you probably got drunk last night, I'm not positive, but I'd say there is a pretty good chance of it, what I do guarantee is you will be drunk, and I mean HAMMERED within 30 days

anyhow, your "condition" is progressive, and there will seem to be brief periods of "recovery" but they will ALWAYS be followed by still worse "relapses" until in time you reach pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization

Make no mistake, this day will come, I just want to make sure you know where to go when it does

_______________________________________________________________________

I think all of you that have been clean and sober because you have reprogrammed your brain should be proud of yourself for teaching yourselves your acceptable forum of drinking.

________________________________________________________________________

That is absolutely correct, but it is acceptable form of "not drinking" the 12 steps when worked in order fearlessly and thoroughly bring about a personality change sufficient to recover from alcoholism, not all of us are Christian or even religious in the slightest, as a matter of fact, many of us aren't, what we are is absolutely agreed on the method to quit drinking which is by working the steps we have the personality change, the "reprogramming" of the brain you talk about

I have drank twice after long years of sobriety to see if I could control or moderate my drinking, and the truth was, once I took a drink I didn't want to control or moderate my drinking, the thing we all have in common, what makes us alcoholics is we want to control and enjoy our drinking, if we control it, we don't enjoy it, and if we are enjoying it, we sure aren't controlling it

Seriously the best way to get a good knowledge of your condition is drink 2 drinks a night for 10 nights, if you are an alcoholic you won't be able to, although you will justify all those times you got drunk, you will still have gotten drunk X number of times

try it, prove it to yourself that you are a normal drinker, drink 2 a night for 10 days, it will be worth it, So I am not saying you need to quit drinking or you "need" to do this or that,† or go to rehab or AA, in my first post I said keep doing what you are doing and you will have a good knowledge of your condition far sooner then you are ready for it

Then we'll talk, when you're done trying it your way, we all had to do so, like 100 lb fish on 10 lb test, we gotta make our run, this is yours, good luck with it, I just know how it's gonna turn out


-- Edited by AGO on Sunday 27th of June 2010 08:54:23 AM

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No i compeletly understand where you are comming from most people don't have the self control to do be able to accomplish all that i am saying I will accomplish.

I completely see why you have your doubts, I guess if I was in your shoes a seasoned non drinker hearing this stupid guy, when three days ago, was telling everyone that he was black out drunk and is now on a AA board and is perching that he is going to be different when two days earlier he was talking about throwing up and being out of control.

All I can say is two or three days ago, I hadn't really realized what was important to me, I didn't have a plan, and If you don't have a plan your are just spinning nowhere.

After reading these boards I started to think about what is respectable drinking. I started thinking about rules that I wanted to make for myself and my life moving forward.

For example last night my gf and i went out for dinner then went to a patio with some friends for drinks. I had decided at the beginning of the night I was only going to want 2 drinks the entire night. I had no drinks during dinner even though my gf and two glasses of wine, I had 2 beers over the 3 hours we were at the bar. All of this i see to be acceptable drinking, I felt like we had a great time I didn't get messy at all. I wanted more, I will admit it but I am working my self control muscle ( I didn't want my drinking brain to win, I wanted to win!) I feel really good about myself that I was able to go out drink only two beers even though my friends where having many more. Don't get me wrong, I wanted more when the bartender kept asking me if I wanted more to drink, but I was happy with my coke with no rum in it!

I really feel inspired right now, I feel like I'm in control of my life in a way that I have never felt before. I want people to learn what I am learning that self control is everything and this is not just applied in drinking but in life!

AGO you seem like a really smart person, you write well and thorough, and you have really inspired me to show everyone especially myself that I don't have a problem. Thank you.

We should write a book " Drinking to Sobriety " " 20 drinks in 10 nights" lol I know your shaking your head ; )

If you have time, I suggest you watch or read the book "Change your brain, change your life"
here is a video about it, these video touch on alcoholism as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mudf4-ngvUk


I know the 12 steps is a great program for alot of people and I would agree that alot of the teaching are very useful. I've gone to the Library and read a bit of the book as well as glanced through some of the other book related. But like it says you cannot change a person until they wanted to be changed.

I never wanted to really change myself until now. Now I have the strength and the mind to do it. Its like a light bulb click on in my head and its shinning bright!


-- Edited by mandm on Sunday 27th of June 2010 10:12:20 AM

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I have a copy of that book sitting on my coffee table

Good luck, truly, I wish you well, and like I said keep us updated

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So far so good, Well I should say so far all going according to plan.

Its funny that you have that book, great minds must think a like , or at least drinking minds do.



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Today was day 6, I had a really big urge to drink today, what made it even tuffer was my gf bought a six pack of my favorite beer and it was sitting in the fridge. I really wanted one but I had decided I didn't want it. Well my sober brain told me that. What made it even tuffer was I had a bad/ stressful day. But i'm proud to say I stayed clean no problem... I'm drinking tea and venting on this board. It feels good to say that out loud.





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Hi,

First post here--I was going to write an intro, but this thread hit home for me.

I'm close to two years sober in AA right now, long story (aren't they all), but for the four and a half years prior to my last drink, I consciously attempted (with the help of a support group) to control my drinking.† I did all the stuff suggested, counting my drinks, measuring, drinking plenty of water, etc., etc.† Now, MAYBE folks with just an early, perhaps largely situational, problem of overdrinking might be able to pull back and actually get it permanently under control.† What I discovered about me (and the vast, vast, majority of my compatriots) is that I could control it for periods of time--even for a few weeks at a time, but it always went back to seriously problematic levels.† Over time, my health and ability to cope with life became steadily worse.† I developed a physical dependency and had night sweats, waking in the middle of the night and unable to go back to sleep, horrible withdrawal during weekdays at work that made me feel like I was having a constant panic attack.† In short, life was beginning to suck.

I'd been around AA for a long time because my first husband was in the program (he now has 30 years), and I'd been around Al-Anon, knew about the steps, had been to plenty of meetings.† But somehow, I was SURE that I was "not that bad" and could get a handle on it myself.

Well, the "moderation" attempts may have kept me from worse harm than if I'd done nothing, but eventually I got beat up and worn out.† I gave up the fight, decided I was an idiot to keep battling something that wasn't even fun anymore.† Being an active alcoholic is a lot of WORK.† I tapered off over the course of four days, planned my last drink, having thrown out every drop of booze in the house the day before (other than the four drinks, spaced hours apart, that I allowed myself the last day.† The day after my†last drink, I went to my first AA meeting FOR MYSELF, and for the first time admitted I was an alcoholic.† (Actually, it came out something like, "I think I'm probably finally ready to admit I'm an alcoholic."† Close enough.)

Mandm, I totally get where you are coming from.† And I think you might just succeed.† For awhile.† I spent four and a half years thinking, "OK, I know what I did wrong that time, I'll nail it from now on."† People who are non-alcoholic do not have to constantly struggle with alcohol.† I agree with the Big Book recommendation that most of us have to at least TRY to exercise control--otherwise we are not convinced.† I just recommend that you make it a shorter experiment than mine was.† It takes what it takes, for all of us, I guess.† To me, the "bottom" we need to hit is simply that point at which going on as we have been is more painful than the alternative of changing.

Incidentally, I have not had a serious urge to drink since my first meeting.† I have a lot of crap going on in my life right now, and it felt odd for awhile not drinking it away, but I didn't have the desire to go back to the misery I felt the day I finally surrendered.†

I went to 90 meetings in 90 days.† It got me very focused and on the right track right away.† I still go to two to three meetings a week.† I have two home groups and I contribute service to both of them.†

I never got a DUI.† I never lost a job.† I never lost a relationship.† I never had serious financial problems.† But I was a mess inside.†

I am a work in progress but I have a long way to go.† Life is better now.

Good luck to you, mandm, stay honest with yourself.† Keep an open mind.†

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Its funny I decided to go back to this post to see how long ago it was since I was drunk/posted, Its felt like forever now.

The funny thing is when I got on i found out its only been 12 days since I first posted the thread! I think thats really funny.

The reason why I desided to come on here was last night the thought crossed my mind of picking up a bottle of whiskey tonight and drinking it, I came on here to remind my self why I will not. I feel like alot has changed in these 12 days , I feel like I have been handling myself and flexing my self control muscle.

but the main thing i'm liking the most is it feels like my head is so much clearer.

Its like when you stop smoking and everything starts tasting better.

Life has been tasting alot better lately.


Thanks everyone for the encouragement!

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