Not Drinking and Going to Meetings

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Not Drinking and Going to Meetings

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Aloha Pink and I like this alot.   Letting you say it is "Letting Go" and accepting that
"I" am not the only instrument out there and often not the best or most desirable.

Thanks for the grace.   Have an especially great one today and I hope you don't
get backed up.   LOL smile

Larry_H · MIP Old Timer

Mark,

I am in 100% full agreement with you on this post.

It was my experience sobering up and all I have to share is my experience of what worked for me.

Opinons do not count. In the Navy we used to say opinions are like as*hol*s everyone has one.

Larry,
-----------------------
Negativity is my disease asking me to come out and play.

-- Edited by Larry_H on Thursday 29th of April 2010 05:42:23 PM

Sobrietyspell · MIP Old Timer

Hiya Mark, I'd like to add my own experience, strength & hope to your thread to pad it out a little more specifically if you won't mind. I agree that not drinking & going to meetings may do many of us much good & even keep some of us sober. Though we must remember & consider that there are alcoholics who may need to consider themselves in the class that in order to recover they will have to have the necessary spiritual awakening that the Big Book speaks of. I have been given the luxury of choice today from working this program in its entirety.

I have seen alcoholics who have died because going to meetings was not enough for them & they wondered why. It was a confused existance. My partner Carl would have died if he didn't have this 12 Step program to work. His case was that desperate that he could not emulate anyone else's recovery by just going to meetings & staying away from the first drink. His obsession, compulsion & spiritual malady was too strong. I know me & you have both worked hard following as suggested too so I don't think that just because life may be easier for us today that we can forget just how hard it was in the beginning. For some of us it is & has to be a lot of effort learning how to live life by the steps to guard against the possibility of a fatal relapse.

My own recovery is dependent upon the steps. This program makes my life worth staying sober for. So I agree that lots of meetings & fellowship is suitable for some & with no criticism to that but there are also those who mustn't be misled. The bottom was raised in my case & it doesn't have to get any worse. I may be in a comfortable position now to be able to say "Yeah Guys, don't worry about it, kick back, relax, lots of meetings are great.. but that Isn't The Essential Message of A.A.. I worked hard to get here & I don't take my eye off the ball 1Day@aTime. I live daily on 10, 11 & 12 & redress any earlier step as I'm growing.

Everyone can make their own mind up what type of alcoholic they are but I wouldn't like to tell the so called 'real alcoholic' the Big Book talks about that they can coast along depending solely on meetings. That may be enough for some of us but I need a 24hour program & not just be waiting for my next meeting to help me feel better. It's the 12steps that gives me my daily defense against that next drink or there's no way I could stay away from it in the first place.

It is a serious illness & it takes lives daily. I could still be next. I don't play with it even though I have the luxury of being able to laugh & live life happy, joyous & free today. That quickly unravels when I stray from what I'm taught in the message. Of course sometimes 'Easy Does It' has its place but I also have to do it! I know how I came by this luxury & I love what the Big Book has to say. I wouldn't like to contradict anything in its pages that could help another alcoholic get sober.

I hope you understand my feeling to share this. It's not necessarily aimed at you Mark but for the newcomer here who may need to have a spiritual awakening as the result of working these steps. It is this I feel that is at the core of this program. Everything else is a bonus. I can't carry any alcoholic but I can carry this message. I will always be supportive of any alcoholic with a desire to stay sober no matter what level of recovery they decide for themselves they need & that means sharing with others what has helped me to stay sober today too.

In Love & Faith, Danielle x

Aquaman · MIP Old Timer

Simple Program for Complicated People.

Peace,
Rob

AGO · MIP Old Timer

My experience matches that of Sobriety Spells

Sometimes meetings aren't enough for some of us, those alcoholics that have gone beyond human aid, for some human aid is enough, meetings are a human power, some of us needed more, some of us need all three, the meetings, the fellowship, and the program

(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.

(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.

(c) That God could and would if He were sought.

Going to meetings and doing 90 in 90 is a great start for everyone though, I am in complete agreement, if your life is better after 90 days keep doing what you are doing, if you keep slipping or have gone crazy, a look at the steps is in order

Larry_H · MIP Old Timer

AGO wrote:

My experience matches that of Sobriety Spells

Sometimes meetings aren't enough for some of us, those alcoholics that have gone beyond human aid, for some human aid is enough, meetings are a human power, some of us needed more, some of us need all three, the meetings, the fellowship, and the program

(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.

Going to meetings and doing 90 in 90 is a great start for everyone though, I am in complete agreement, if your life is better after 90 days keep doing what you are doing, if you keep slipping or have gone crazy, a look at the steps is in order

Absolutely meetings are not enough for me. It takes the whole package MY HP, BB, Sponsor, Steps, Meetings, and not drinking. I needed 90 in 90 to keep seeing the hope in the rooms so that I could believe the steps would work. I needed to have the alcohol out of my brain (Don't drink no matter what) so I could understand and follow the simple suggestions.

Take away anything I highlighted in bold above and I would not be sober today

Larry,
-------------------
I laugh, I love, I hope, I try I hurt, I need, I fear, I cry. And I know you do the same things too, So we're really not that different, me and you.

Colin Raye

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

Good advice Mark, great to hear from you.

AGO · MIP Old Timer

Larry_H wrote:

Absolutely meetings are not enough for me. It takes the whole package MY HP, BB, Sponsor, Steps, Meetings, and not drinking. I needed 90 in 90 to keep seeing the hope in the rooms so that I could believe the steps would work. I needed to have the alcohol out of my brain (Don't drink no matter what) so I could understand and follow the simple suggestions
Take away anything I highlighted in bold above and I would not be sober today

Larry,
-------------------
I laugh, I love, I hope, I try I hurt, I need, I fear, I cry. And I know you do the same things too, So we're really not that different, me and you.
Colin Raye

I agree with you 100% Larry

I find it very sad that talk of things like "real alcoholics", working THE PROGRAM OF RECOVERY, talking about God, and saying human powers won't avail us is considered "offensive" in meetings any more, that actually stating that "half measures availed us nothing" like "don't drink and go to meetings" is actually true is considered "splitting hairs" and is felt to be offensive in meetings and AA sites

The way it was explained to me was they are all like spokes on a bicycle, take away enough spokes and the wheel gets wobbly, going to meetings, working the steps, reaching out to newcomers, being of service, sponsoring others, for me I have done 90 in 90 a number of times, and also advised sponsees and newcomers to do the same to either start a program and renew my commitment.

It's also been explained to me that they are are like a three legged stool, I need all three (The Program, meetings and The Fellowship) in order to stay sober and sane

Like you and I discussed in another thread, all of my friends that came into the program and grabbed onto all three aspects of this program are all still sober 20 years later, now they don't all go to meetings, some have drifted away and are active in Church, some in Buddhism, many are still active in AA, but I can't think of a single one that was able to stay sober long term with just meetings, those folks just didn't make it and stay sober.

I do agree there is no "one" timeline", my favorite sponsor that I had for nigh on a decade was at one time a newcomer I used to drag around to meetings and I took him to Joe and Charlie seminars one year couldn't string complete sentences together his first year, So I spent that year just calling him "ShutupAlex"

well payback is a bitch, 7-8 years later he was my sponsor, he taught me more about love and tolerance then anyone else ever has, he worked some crazy wacked out light your fourth step on fire program

and it worked, he was one of the most amazing loving men I have ever met

My only point is it's important not to confuse meeting attendance with the actual program of action necessary to recover from alcoholism, they are two legs of the same stool, but they are different legs, and to me, it's not "splitting hairs", it's more along the difference between life and death, meeting attendance alone may work for some, but it doesn't work for everyone.

We read a preamble at every meeting from how it works that says:

Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it then you are ready to take certain steps.
At some of these we balked. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
Remember that we deal with alcohol, cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power that One is God. May you find Him now!
Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. we asked His protection and care with complete abandon.
Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:
So if you just "don't drink and go to meetings" in every single meeting you attend they will tell you in the reading that "half measures availed us nothing" and that the steps ARE the Program of recovery, not the meeting.

Just "Don't drink and go to meetings" as a program of recovery will literally kill those human beings known as "real alcoholics" who need the spiritual awakening in order to not drink, all you have to do is read this site and watch the still suffering alcoholics that relapse over and over and over that are confused because although they keep going to meetings they can't stop drinking, and when they do, they suffer so much that a return to alcohol is literally necessary to keep them from committing suicide or going crazy

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty.

Meeting attendance doesn't require rigorous honesty, the steps do however, you can can be constitionally incapable of being honest with yourself and attend meetings until your wheels fall off, I have watched the same people attend meetings for decades and not be able to string any time together, literally decades, after you see the same people raising their hands for a few ten years you begin to catch on to what works and what doesn't

Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. we asked His protection and care with complete abandon.
Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:
So every single meeting tells us what the program of recovery is in the beginning of the meeting

This brings us to the Fifth Step in the program of recovery mentioned in the preceding chapter. This is perhaps difficult, especially discussing our defects with another person. We think we have done well enough in admitting these things to ourselves. There is doubt about that. In actual practice, we usually find a solitary self-appraisal insufficient. Many of us thought it necessary to go much further. We will be more reconciled to discussing ourselves with another person when we see good reasons why we should do so.

So why should we do this pesky "program of recovery" when really all we have to do is go to meetings?

The best reason first: If we skip this vital step, we may not overcome drinking.

Oh

that doesn't seem like "splitting hairs" to me, it seems like the difference between drinking and not drinking, the difference between success and failure, the difference between drunk and sober, quite frankly many alcoholics when in front of a judge also call this "quibbling" or "splitting hairs" why I have done so myself on many occasion as I swayed back and forth in front of my Girlfriend

Time after time newcomers have tried to keep to themselves certain facts about their lives. Trying to avoid this humbling experience, they have turned to easier methods. Almost invariably they got drunk. Having persevered with the rest of the program, they wondered why they fell. We think the reason is that they never completed their housecleaning.

So how do we stay sober in AA?

Right after those "Promises" that are read at most meetings (which come true after reading step nine, not attending meetings by the way) it says:

It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action and rest on our laurels. We are headed for trouble if we do, for alcohol is a subtle foe. We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition

and explains how we do that with steps ten and eleven

Then with step 12, it teaches us how to approach other alcoholics, the entire chapter explains how to carry the message:

Outline the program of action, explaining how you made a self-appraisal, how you straightened out your past and why you are now endeavoring to be helpful to him. It is important for him to realize that your attempt to pass this on to him plays a vital part in your recovery.

Your candidate may give reasons why he need not follow all of the program. He may rebel at the thought of a drastic housecleaning which requires discussion with other people. Do not contradict such views. Tell him you once felt as he does, but you doubt whether you would have made much progress had you not taken action. On your first visit tell him about the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous.

I did once feel like you do, I once considered these old timers that went on and on about The Program, The Steps, The Traditions and how important they are tedious in the extreme.

Suppose now you are making your second visit to a man. He has read this volume and says he is prepared to go through with the Twelve Steps of the program of recovery. Having had the experience yourself, you can give him much practical advice.

So if you have never had the experience yourself, you can't? That's how it was explained to me, I can't give away what I don't have, and no one is interested in my opinion about an experience I have never had. I was told this in no uncertain terms.

So to what some consider "know it all behavior", quibbling, and splitting hairs, others consider the difference between life and death, drunk or sober

When I take a Physics course, I don't sit at the back of the hall listening to his lecture and ask myself who that jackass thinks he is, and I don't presume to teach the class, I sit and learn, and after many many years in AA I still have a lot to learn but it is my job to grow in effectiveness and pass on what the difference is between The Program, The Fellowship, and Meetings.

The are all AA but they are distinct and different parts of AA, and meeting attendance, while vital has little to do with the actual program, it's where we go to learn about, or pass on The Program.

-- Edited by AGO on Friday 30th of April 2010 09:27:37 AM

bikerbill · MIP Old Timer

Larry_H wrote:

Opinons do not count. In the Navy we used to say opinions are like as*hol*s everyone has one.

....and nobody needs two.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

I have some experience in AA now and what I have heard the MOST about people relapsing when they come back is "I just stopped going to meetings." Hands down that is the number 1 response I hear after someone's relapse. Why is that?

These AA sayings that are not in the big book exist for a reason. They help people. As a neurotic person that would overcomplicate everything, I would probably have jumped ship if people did not constantly offer me support and reassurance, tell me to keep it simple, but also call me on my crap in a loving way. Hence, the people in AA have been of the most value to me.

Anyhow, I did read the big book immediately. Had a sponsor by day six. I was the person that actually showed up to my first month of meetings with a big book in my lap and did not stop bringing it to meetings until someone told me to leave it behind as there was going to be no quiz.

For me, there had to be a first things first...First I needed to build a program of recovery and that primarily did involve going to meetings. I believe WAY WAY more people relapse out of rehabs and such not because they didn't focus on steps in rehab but because they fail to start going to and to continue attending meetings upon release. I also believe WAY WAY more people relapse because they are too scared to get involved in the AA fellowship, take the numbers, and make the calls. That is the real work in the beginning of AA. Anyone can read a book and claim to understand the steps. A psychic shift comes from performing the above actions and making some drastic life changes. Your understanding of the steps and the big book will not keep you sober, as it is a WE program and that is actually spelled out in step 1. Besides, if a person has done step 1 approrpriately, the will get the message they should not drink, no matter what. Hence, step 1 has to be done perfectly...I have seen many many people moving on to step 4, 5, 6. and 7 before really really accepting "I am an alcoholic and simply cannot drink, cannot take steps backwards, and will NEVER be able to drink again normally." Period. My belief IS that steps 1 through 3 actually do have the power to curb your drinking. 4 through 12 stop you from being a dry drunk opinionated crazy ahole like I tend to be without alcohol.

There are simple tools AA has to offer that are not in the big book that I do believe are crucial. For example, a huge one is call your sponsor when you have the thoughts of drinking and not after the action...Go to meetings even when you don't feel like it....cuz sitting at home reading the big book ain't gonna cut it....To me, the most common half-assed AA approach is when people do not go to meetings or barely go, read the literature and think they can lick the disease on their own.

Anyhow, i would thoroughly suggest working the steps, getting a sponsor, doing service, as I have done all of these things in addition to going to lots of meetings. BUT, the most important thing to do at first is just start going to some darn meetings and stop drinking...I learned the rest from doing that. If others can't pick that up nuturally, they just aren't willing or ready...shoving a big book in their face isn't gonna do anything.

I guess there are a few people that go to meetings and never work the steps...I would agree that is foolhearty, but I just think stopping going to meetings is the MOST dangerous relapse behavior...as I have seen people stay sober (albeit crazy) from going to meetings and not working the steps but have never seen a person just read the book and do the steps but skip meetings stay sober.

P.S. The crux of the curative/healing factor of AA is "One alcoholic talking to another." This started with Dr. Bob and Bill W. One alcoholic talking to another = A meeting. The MOST basic healing factor in AA. Period.

-- Edited by pinkchip on Friday 30th of April 2010 01:24:15 PM

AGO · MIP Old Timer

You say the #1 people relapse is because they stopped going to meetings

Did you ever ask the next question?

What step were you on?

In 99 out of a 100 they never worked the steps, these people attended meetings to stay sober, never worked the program, didn't get the spiritual awakening (how could they?) stopped going to meetings, and drank.

You hear this nonsense parroted all over AA "The biggest reason people relapse is they stopped going to meetings" when the reason so many cite stopping going to meetings as why they relapsed is because meetings is what they use to stay sober, y6ou talk to these people and none of them worked the steps, I know dozens and dozens of sober alcoholics in their second, third and even fourth decade of sobriety, actually probably well over 100 sober alcoholics who don't go to meetings any more and are happily sober because meeting attendance wasn't what kept them sober, the twelve steps were.

They don't go announce themselves at meetings because that talk is considered blasphemy -don't go to meetings??? gasp, Harriet get the gun!!!!- but it's true, probably 50% of the people I got sober with that stayed sober don't go to meetings for one reason or another, my old sponsor lives in the jungle now filming documentaries, not too many meetings there, yet there he is, happy, joyous and free

If the entire crux of AA was one Alcoholic talking to another I could walk over to the nearest Bar and get sober, alcoholics would be getting sober in Bars all over the world, the crux is sober alcoholics with the answer to alcoholism talking to non sober alcoholics. That whole statement comes from this:

Highly competent psychiatrists who have dealt with us have found it sometimes impossible to persuade an alcoholic to discuss his situation without reserve. Strangely enough, wives, parents and intimate friends usually find us even more unapproachable than do the psychiatrist and the doctor.

But the ex-problem drinker who has found this solution, who is properly armed with facts about himself, can generally win the entire confidence of another alcoholic in a few hours. Until such an understanding is reached, little or nothing can be accomplished.

That the man who is making the approach has had the same difficulty, that he obviously knows what he is talking about, that his whole deportment shouts at the new prospect that he is a man with a real answer, that he has no attitude of Holier Than Thou, nothing whatever except the sincere desire to be helpful; that there are no fees to pay, no axes to grind, no people to please, no lectures to be endured these are the conditions we have found most effective. After such an approach many take up their beds and walk again.

Ebby Thatcher who 12 stepped Bill had never attended a meeting in his life, Bill 12 stepped Bob never having been to a meeting, They went and 12 stepped Bill Dodson I think his name was, from there they started growing. Meetings were only started to bring the message to still suffering alcoholics, they were never even considered to be a part of The Program except for 12 step work, to show other alcoholics how to recover using the 12 steps.

If any human power could have kept me sober I would have never needed AA, and if hugs and love could have kept me sober I could have just called my mother (which I did to no avail), hell she's an alcoholic AND she loves me and hugs me, yet after just a few minutes with her I want to kill myself.

I was just trying to show the difference between meetings, the program, and the fellowship, and the difference between meeting attendance and working the program, which are absolutely not the same thing

Attend Alanon for awhile and listen to the wives of the men with "long term sobriety" that still attend meetings every night after years of not drinking and they are as poor husbands, fathers and partners if not worse then when they were drinking, they become spiritual gurus in the rooms and terrifying tyrants in their homes and business, I have met thousands of these men, when in The Program that is where one learns to demonstrate their program, at home, at work, with their wives, children and co-workers

One of the first thing I was taught was to "watch peoples feet" and how folks acted and talked in meetings bore little or no resemblance to how they behaved in the real world when the 12 steps weren't incorporated in their lives.

The Book itself is meant to be stand alone, you get one in the mail work the steps as outlined and get sober, there are thousands upon thousands of people who got sober just from the books, and then started meetings. That's how AA got so big for crying out loud.

You know why we read "How it Works" in meetings?

A man came out of a blackout in a California Hotel room, found he had acquired this book, read the book, followed it's instructions, got sober and started AA on The West Coast, in their first meeting someone asked "So how does this thing work, so he read "How it works", all the meetings that spun off his group read how it works until it became a world wide phenomenon.

The book works all by itself, without meetings, meetings can work to keep some people sober, but when they stop their secondary addiction (meetings) they return to their first addiction (drinking)

The Book explains a way where quite frankly meetings aren't necessary, because they aren't, not after reaching step 12, then there are lots of places to find wet drunks to work with, if meetings had been necessary we never would have had the first 100

Ultimately I think we are saying the similar things, the only thing I am saying is I think it is dangerous when the only message heard in meetings is "Don't drink and go to meetings" when the entire message is get thee to a meeting, get a sponsor, do the steps, get into service, and sponsor others.

Why work the steps?

Because nothing changes if nothing changes, that's why they say "this is an inside job"

Pink, just as an idea, try listening to Joe and Charlies first installments, the ones entitled History of AA" I think, see what they have to say, I would be hard pressed if you found a single thing to disagree with and you may learn something, seriously, study the history, roots and evolution of AA, it's fascinating stuff, it's not some right wing rant, it's calm cool collected presentation of facts, listen and draw your own conclusions, especially if coupled with studying and reading Barefoot, AA comes of age, Dr Bob and The Good Old Timers, Chuck C's New pair of Glasses, learn about what AA is and isn't learn our history, learn who we are and what we do and why we do it, the reading list of Old Timers is wonderful and illuminating.

-- Edited by AGO on Friday 30th of April 2010 03:41:58 PM

BGG · Senior Member

What the hell, I'll join the "fray" biggrin

From my experience, is not an either/or question between meetings and practicing the 12 Steps. When I came into A.A. in 1986, I jumped in "head on" to the Program. Went to daily meetings, got a sponsor, immediately began the 12 Steps (using the directions in the Big Book). After a year or so, I began to sponsor newer women in the Program, and practiced the same thing with them that I had been taught by my sponsor: my purpose was to help them through the 12 Steps, so that they could do so with others. I practiced doing a major 4th step inventory (followed by a 5th step) every year right before my sobriety birthday so that I could make sure I hadn't missed lurking issues through my 10th step work (and invariably, I always had). I experienced the "spiritual awakening" as described in Step 12.

From about my third year of sobriety through year 15, I averaged 2-3 meetings a week (sometimes more), and I continued with the Steps, continued work with sponsees, served as a trusted servant at various meetings, and also lived "a life" outside of the A.A. fellowship: completing my college education, going to law school, becoming a lawyer, promotion to partner at a major law firm, bought first house, built a relationship with my significant other (now 20+ years and still going).

At around 16 years sober, my attendance at meetings decreased, in large part because I was working some horrendous hours and traveling for more than half the year on business. During the next two years, I probably attended about 20 meetings, tops. I was still actively sponsoring three women and still involved in 12 step work. But, as I look back on it, I certainly was spending less and less time in the 12 Steps, and more and more time working at my profession. And so, at 17 years, 11 months and one week sober, I took a drink. If you had asked me that morning "do you drink?, I would have said "no, I'm an alcoholic." But, that evening, in a social environment where some people were drinking, I answered an innocent question from a waiter ("Would you like red or white wine?") with a most ridiculous answer as a recovering alcoholic: "What's the entree?" It was sudden, there was no warning, the insanity literally overtook me in an instant.

The Big Book describes what I experienced in the chapter "More About Alcoholism." I had what they call a mental "blank spot". There was not "a cloud on the horizon," and all was apparently well, but separated from both meetings and the 12 Steps, I did not have contact with the Power necessary to bring into my mind with sufficient force what had happened to me that had caused me to come to A.A. 18 years earlier. I have no other explanation but that.

So, what went wrong? I stopped going to meetings. As a result of not going to meetings for an extended period of time, I gradually stopped daily practice of ANY of the 12 Steps. As a result, my "spiritual awakening" had been replaced by spiritual deadness. It did not matter how diligent I had been for 16 years in the Program; eventually I did what any alcoholic separated from the Power does: I drank.

I do not believe that meetings "keep us sober." I certainly know that meetings do not, in and of themselves, lead to the spiritual awakening necessary to expel the obsession (and keep it expelled). I do believe that it is the very rare alcoholic who can maintain the discipline of daily practice of the 12 Steps for an extended period of time without some form of regular contact with the Fellowship of A.A. For me, I am not willing to take the chance again. Thanks to A.A., including the wonderful members on MIP, I have been reunited with the Power through daily practice of the Steps, and I have not had to take a drink again since September 1, 2006. For that, I am very, very, very grateful.

Thanks for letting me share,
BGG

AGO · MIP Old Timer

Thank you for that BGG

I agree with your sentiment and story, which could, like my story be expressed in one sentence from Page 85: ... What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition.

I am not "anti-meeting", the only point I have been making is meetings in and of themselves aren't sufficient to bring about the necessary spiritual awakening required for a real alcoholic to quit drinking and be happy, joyous and free.

They are a vehicle, a part if you will, of the Triangle of Recovery.

When I have gone for long periods of time without attending meetings, when I was surrounded by AA friends, did AA activities, had an AA girlfriend and AA employees, and called AA friends that told truth, I lived a happy life. I was able to keep working the steps in my life by daily contact with my brothers and sisters in sobriety, I worked with others, I had a sponsor, sponsees, and all I interacted with were sober.

When I moved to a new area, very isolated where everyone grew pot for a living, lying, cheating and stealing was the norm, and I lived and worked with my family, 3 alkis and a junkie (all practicing) the truth of the matter is I should have stepped up my meetings instead of wandering away, I lost the steps exactly backwards, first 12, not carrying the message to other alcoholics nor practicing these principals in all my affairs, I stopped praying and meditating, I stopped taking inventories, and I lived and worked with crazy people.

After what? 3? 4? years I qualified for 2 12 step programs instead of just one and had gone batshit crazy.

I went to meetings in two fellowships instead of one, worked the steps, now just attend meetings in AA with on eye on communicating with my double winner brethren.

Meetings aren't the Program, and meetings aren't sufficient to bring about recovery for the "real" alcoholic described in the big book that AA is there to help, on that it's not even opinion, that is just fact for me, we are all entitled to our own opinions but what we aren't entitled to is our version of the facts, or I would haven't gotten so many DUI's.

-- Edited by AGO on Saturday 1st of May 2010 12:59:31 AM

AGO · MIP Old Timer

pinkchip wrote:

My belief IS that steps 1 through 3 actually do have the power to curb your drinking. 4 through 12 stop you from being a dry drunk opinionated crazy ahole like I tend to be without alcohol.

That is where your opinion differs from my experience, the people who wrote the books experience, and the overwhelming majority of those who have actually worked the steps experience, for many of us the steps DO spell the difference between Life and Death, for the real alcoholic that the big book of alcoholics anonymous was written for working only the first three steps and just going to meetings is a death sentence

That is where you and I differ, I NEED the steps to not put a gun or a drink in my mouth, I am who that book and this program was written for, alcoholics who need a spiritual awakening to stay sober, not all who attend meetings are in that category, some are able to stay sober by the group therapy aspect alone. Who that book was written for is not them, and I feel it is important to tell them there is something more then meetings.

Telling an alcoholic of my type all he has to do is work steps 1-3 to stay sober is a death sentence

That is why we see in meetings every day alcoholics raising their hands after doing the AA waltz

1 2 3 slip

1 2 3 slip

The first three steps are decisions that can be made while reading along with an ex problem drinker the first 62 pages of The Big book, takes three hours tops if one is willing, ready able, Honest, open minded, and ready to surrender. I have taken well over 100 men through those steps, and have at least 30 sponsees running around with double digit sobriety who have sponsored 100's who in turn have sponsored 1000's all word for word verbatim like the guy who did it with me, who got sober in 1942 and has sponsored 1000's himself before he passed away.

Self knowledge avails us nothing, and if you don't work the steps, you can't get the promises offered by those steps, trying to stay sober on steps 1 2 and 3 is watered down AA and the easier softer way we tried to find but could not for the real alcoholic that needs those steps. I'm sorry but it's murder to tell a real alcoholic all he needs to do is attend meetings and work steps 1-2-3, it's like telling a child that russian roullette is a safe game to play then being surprised when he blows his head off.

"I don't what happened....poor little fella" then I ask myself "What is Truth?" and wash my hands of it and walk away

We must agree to disagree on this and put this conversation to rest, I see now why you were so offended by my posts, I am sorry I have offended you with my sentiments of only meeting attendance isn't actually working The Program and not working the ALL of the steps is a death sentence for real alcoholics like me, but that is my experience, which is VASTLY different from your opinion. The program of "don't drink and go to meetings" and "you can stay sober on just steps 1-2 and 3" kills alcoholics of my type but If just working steps 1-3 and going to meetings works for you, I am happy for you, and once again, apologize for offending you.

-- Edited by AGO on Saturday 1st of May 2010 01:20:38 AM

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

We don't really differ on anything AGO. We just latch on more to different elements of the program. The steps are crucial to me too. I am closer to being a beginner so I naturally would say steps 1 through 3 are the most important. I am intensely focusing on 4 through 7 now (on 6) and give me a few months and I will probably tell you how these steps saved my life. All I know is that I did spend a year on 1 through 3...and as I gained more sobriety time, that foundation did get stronger. I didn't drink from prolonging step 4. The high amount of meetings I went to and being so active in the fellowship is was really did it for me and it is where I attribute most of the reasons for my staying sober and getting to a year plus...

That being said....this dependence on fellowship and other people more than a personal HP and the steps may also be part of the reason I have started going to CoDA now. Hrm....

Oh yeah...another quibbling point though...1 alcoholic talking to another IS a meeting. Hence, that stream of reasoning about Bill talking to Dr. Bob with no meeting...those WERE meetings! That is where the concept of meetings started. One alcoholic talking to another. And of course it's not going to work in a bar...Only when at least one has had the spiritual awakening you speak of...then he can help the other.

-- Edited by pinkchip on Saturday 1st of May 2010 06:43:18 AM

AGO · MIP Old Timer

Now we are getting to fruitful discussion, I hear you

We don't really differ on anything AGO. We just latch on more to different elements of the program. The steps are crucial to me too. I am closer to being a beginner so I naturally would say steps 1 through 3 are the most important.

Heard and understood, it's important we do stick with what we know, experience strength and hope, I understand why 1-3 are important to you, 4-12 is just step 3 broken down, that's where we learn how to turn our will and our life over to the care of God as we understand God is 4-12

I am intensely focusing on 4 through 7 now (on 6) and give me a few months and I will probably tell you how these steps saved my life.

I would have you on step 12 in a week if you have already done step five, I am of the school that if you focus on the problem, the problem increases, if you focus on the solution, the solution increases, steps 6 and 7 for me got revisited and come to mean more and more as time goes on as a direct result of step 10, I like 12 x 12 step studies where we read a paragraph and share, that keeps the steps constantly going and growing for me.

Since in Step Five, the wording is "we admitted the exact nature of our wrongs" with good sponsorship I end up with a list of shortcomings that are all manifestations of self that had been defeating me, they are laid out in columns with more specific examples then I care to look at from going over my fourth step with my sponsor, he and I together end up writing the "what was my part" column, after doing a more thorough "what part of self was affected", then I turn to the book for step six

Done correctly and thoroughly with a competent sponsor who has an understanding of codependent behavior quite frankly this addresses my codependency as well, so then, with steps four and five done I:

Returning home (from doing step five) we find a place where we can be quiet for an hour, carefully reviewing what we have done. We thank God from the bottom of our heart that we know Him better. Taking this book down from our shelf we turn to the page which contains the twelve steps. Carefully reading the first five proposals we ask if we have omitted anything, for we are building an arch through which we shall walk a free man at last. Is our work solid so far? Are the stones properly in place? Have we skimped on the cement put into the foundation? Have we tried to make mortar without sand? If we can answer to our satisfaction, we then look at Step Six. We have emphasized willingness as being indispensable. Are we now ready to let God remove from us all the things which we have admitted are objectionable? Can He now take them all, everyone? If we still cling to something we will not let go, we ask God to help us be willing.

When ready, we say something like this: "My Creator, I am now willing that you should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that you now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do your bidding. Amen." We have then completed Step Seven.

So to me the steps are a process not an event, we get through them and then grow inside them, does that make sense?

step 8 we have from our fourth step

We have a list of all persons we have harmed and to whom we are willing to make amends. We made it when we took inventory.

we make that into columns, immediate, delayed and never, then jump into step nine, I am of the school that we bang out the immediate immediately, and continue on to step 10 while dealing with the delayed and while praying for willingness for the nevers

Step 10 says

Our next function is to grow in understanding and effectiveness. This is not an overnight matter. It should continue for our lifetime. Continue to watch for selfishness, dishonesty, resentment, and fear. When these crop up, we ask God at once to remove them. We discuss them with someone immediately and make amends quickly if we have harmed anyone. Then we resolutely turn our thoughts to someone we can help. Love and tolerance of others is our code.

So it's something we do every day

Step 11 says:

When we retire at night, we constructively review our day. Were we resentful, selfish, dishonest or afraid? Do we owe an apology? Have we kept something to ourselves which should be discussed with another person at once? Were we kind and loving toward all? What could we have done better? Were we thinking of ourselves most of the time? Or were we thinking of what we could do for others, of what we could pack into the stream of life? But we must be careful not to drift into worry, remorse or morbid reflection, for that would diminish our usefulness to others. After making our review we ask God's forgiveness and inquire what corrective measures should be taken.

On awakening let us think about the twenty-four hours ahead. We consider our plans for the day. Before we begin, we ask God to direct our thinking, especially asking that it be divorced from self-pity, dishonest or self-seeking motives. Under these conditions we can employ our mental faculties with assurance, for after all God gave us brains to use. Our thought- life will be placed on a much higher plane when our thinking is cleared of wrong motives.

Chapter 7 gives us clear cut instructions on how to do step 12, it's all layed out in an easy format

That being said....this dependence on fellowship and other people more than a personal HP and the steps may also be part of the reason I have started going to CoDA now. Hrm....

Yeah, I had to do the same thing, one thing I found helpful was finding AA double winners and reworking the steps with my codependency in mind, the difference between you and I is it took me 17 years or so before I addressed my codependency and I drank behind it, so you will get nothing but support from me there

Oh yeah...another quibbling point though...1 alcoholic talking to another IS a meeting. Hence, that stream of reasoning about Bill talking to Dr. Bob with no meeting...those WERE meetings! That is where the concept of meetings started. One alcoholic talking to another. And of course it's not going to work in a bar...Only when at least one has had the spiritual awakening you speak of...then he can help the other.

Totally agreed, one Alcoholic that has had the spiritual awakening as The result of the steps talking to another can help inside or outside a meeting.

I bartended for many years in Sobriety and truthfully 12 stepped far more alcoholics in that bar then I ever did in meetings, not by talking to them, but by staying sober and getting my life back together, people started coming to me, bringing their husbands, wives and children to me, earning me the sobriquet of "The Pied Piper of Sobriety" to Bo-Stin Marin County.

The thing is I think you and I have fundamentally different ideas about what a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous is for and what The Program is (and that's OK) but in another thread you suggested a newcomer go and share her problems at group level at a meeting, whereas all I would ever suggest is that a newcomer go ask for help, personally I don't stay sober by listening to a newcomers problems, I stay sober by working with newcomers, if I wanted to listen to an alcoholics problems I would go to a Bar, I go to AA for the solution to alcoholism, not to hear people who haven't worked the steps tell me about their day or their problems, what I want to hear at a meeting how people navigated life utilizing the 12 steps, not how they go through life without them.

I wasn't allowed to share for my first year and until I had completed the twelve steps (I did anyway but that's a story for another time) but the questions were asked of me:

Can you teach anyone in that room how to get drunk?

Can you teach anyone in that room how to get sober?

If the answer to both of those was No (which of course it was)

The question was then asked "Then why are you sharing at a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous?"

It was explained to me that meetings were not in fact group therapy where I bring my "problems" but a venue in which to share the solution, also known as the twelve steps, and that if I wasn't sharing the solution, I was sharing the problem, it was explained I could ask for help, and that was appropriate

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

It was explained to me that if I hadn't worked the steps how could I carry the message? It was explained to me that no one was interested in my opinion of an experience I had never had.

These sentiments are hugely offensive to those who use AA as group therapy, things like "take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth" which were common in AA when I got sober are only heard at the hardcore meetings any more.

So it's OK, You and I have exactly opposite views of what AA is, and that's OK, AA is big enough for both of us, I think we'd be friends and go to coffee and drink so much coffee we'd wave our arms around and talk too fast, and that's a great pasttime

I work an incredibly simple program, I just follow the instructions exactly how they are layed out in the big book (as if you couldn't tell LOLOL omg here comes that book thumper again aaauuuuggghhhh hahahahaha)

-- Edited by AGO on Saturday 1st of May 2010 12:59:03 PM