I'm new and I have questions...

Smiths77 · Member

I'm new and I have questions...

BGG · Senior Member

First, welcome to MIP; we are all glad you are here! And, congratulations on 12 days sober; we all do this (stay sober) one day at a time.

I identify with much of what you have said and asked. I, too, am what some refer to as a "high bottom" or "functioning" alcoholic. What I came to realize after coming to A.A. is that: (1) our stories, regardless of "bottoms," share more similarities than differences (common themes: loneliness, insecurity, pride, etc.); and (2) we have one thing absolutely in common: once we start drinking we can't control the amount we drink or how long we drink, and we can't stay stopped from taking the first drink on our own power.

I too also shared your concern about anonymity. But, what I came to realize is that the other people in attendance at A.A. meetings are there for a reason also: they are either alcoholic themselves, have a close relationship with an alcoholic, or have been ordered to attend A.A. by a court, job, etc because of a drinking problem. In 24 years in A.A., I have never, ever, experienced one negative consequence as a result of seeing someone in an A.A. meeting, or someone seeing me. And, I have run across people over the years who I have known from my professional work. Despite my fears about this initially, therefore, I found that I had absolutely nothing to worry about.

On your question on marijuana, A.A. is premised on abstinence from all mood-altering substances, including marijuana.

On your question regarding friends who drink, from my own experience, in early sobriety, I had to stay around sober people (new friends I met in A.A.). In time, I was able to re-establish my relationships with long time friends who still drink, and I occasionally hang out with these friends. You'll get lots of insights and directions on this sort of stuff from sober A.A. members you will meet at meetings.

I really encourage you to get to an A.A. meeting TODAY. You do not have to do this alone; we all need each other. Please continue to post and let us know how you are doing.

Love,

B.G.G.

-- Edited by BGG on Saturday 17th of April 2010 01:18:17 PM

Reffner · Senior Member

Hi there Smiths and welcome to MIP. 12 days without a drink is AWESOME. I understand your questions because I had them too. I can't nor will I even attempt to give you any advice, but I can share my own personal experiences with you. What is still amazing to me is reading others experiences and wondering if they were "copying" my own story. This was me 7 years ago. I was a functional drunk, hadn't lost anything [YET] and saw no reason to quit drinking other than the fact that my family thought I had a problem.

Fast forward 6 years... I lost everything to alcohol. See, I started going to meetings at first (6 years ago) and heard others share about what they had lost and thought "huh, I'm not like that". Many old timers gave me the whole "YET" speech, and that just made me mad (you know, the whole "you haven't lost anything YET"). Well guess what...I got the YET'S they told me about. It took me 5 years in and out of AA and ALLOT of experimenting (read REALLY low bottom) to realize that I was indeed an alcoholic. Thank God I didn't lose my life, thought it wasn't due to lack of trying. What I wasn't looking for was what I had in common with them, and that was quit allot.

Only you can determine if your an alcoholic. If your worried you drink too much, you just might be. If you pass out or black every time you drink, you might suffer from the disease. If you obsess about alcohol most of the time and crave it when you don't have it, there's a good chance you might be one of us. I've never known a "normal" drinker who drank until pass out/black out, especially 5 times a week. I've been told "normal" drinkers don't worry about their drinking problem. I don't know about that, because I'm not a "normal" drinker, I'm a grateful recovering alcoholic. "Normal" drinkers have the ability to consume 1/2 a drink and walk away from it, at least that was what my wife was able to do. This disease only lets me decide if I want the first drink or not. If I decide I do, I have no choice...I MUST keep drinking.

I had to be willing to go to ANY length to get sober. I gave up many good friends, simply because they wanted to hang out at bars and I can't do that. They always said "don't worry, I won't let you drink". Right. Were they gonna follow me home to make sure I didn't stop at the store on the way home? No, they weren't. Sure, I didn't have to drink at the bar, but once the obsession for alcohol kicks in for me, all bets are off. I will do ANYTHING to get that drink, and I pretty much did. The new friends I made in AA far surpass what I thought were "life long friends to the end". AA has many sayings about slipping or relapsing, and they're all good. I don't want a hair cut so I stay out of the barber shop.

I had to give up ALL drugs, because they all led me back to my drug of choice ... alcohol. For me today, it's not about quitting drinking...I've already done that. It's about learning to life (and do it the best I can) without it. There isn't a single part of who I am that hasn't been changed by AA, and that's an AWESOME thing. I have some sanity back. I can do the right things (well, most of the time :P) and just enjoy life the way it is. The best thing about all of this is, AA taught me I only have to do it one day at a time. Yesterday means nothing...what can I do about it anyway? Tomorrow isn't here yet. When/if it gets here I can start over.

As far as anonymity, I don't have allot of experience there, so I'll let others deal with that. I'll simply say, I thought I had everyone fooled about my drinking. Boy was I wrong. They all knew, but didn't want to "piss Brian off" because when he was, who knew what was going to happen.

Can we help you out here? You bet we can, but only by sharing our own experience, strength, and hope. If you really want the help your gonna have to do the foot work, but you WON'T have to do it alone. That's what's great about AA, we are not alone anymore. Many people are out there reaching out a hand...it's up to you to take a hold of it.

I will keep you in my prayers

God bless... Brian

Smiths77 · Member

Thanks B.G.G...

There is a meeting tomorrow night I'm thinking about attending.
I also just read the WIKI-How article someone posted (about what do/expect on your first meeting), which was a huge help.

Since I have your attention...

a few more questions:

I worry about telling friends. I think friends are going to be shocked. Shocked that there was a problem. I am the kind of person who HATES that kind of attention. I'm the happy drunk guy! And I'm the happy sober guy toO! It's not that people won't understand and won't support me - I am not worried about that...I worry more...about people worrying about me. Or people being uncomfortable... "Our birthday is at the bar...do we still invite him..." - "Should we still serve wine at the dinner party...or should it just be non-alcoholic..?"
LOL - i know, i know "all about me me me" hahahaha - i get it...but in all honesty...I worry about people - my friends/family being "concerned" - sure - as they should be...but I worry about looking like a victim... "poor me"...
I worry about people being made "uncomfortable"...and I worry about people blowing it out of proportion...
I worry.
LOL. That's about it.

the last 2 weekends I stayed home...which is anti-social...but...I had to. It was patio-drinking, and there'd be no way I can resist.
It's weird. I mean...I like the idea of a support group. I like the idea of talking to people who have something in common with me...I will learn a lot...I know I will...

I just find it odd...how something which is so internalized and isolating (drinking)...it's a double edged sword...I found myself sober on the weekend, surrounded by nothing but mindless television and my cat. And I am still trying to figure out what "this" is...
is it a healthy change?
This is not really a "consequence" of anything...this decision to get sober.
This is not court ordered...it is not "get sober or die" it is not "get sober or get fired" it is not "get sober or i am leaving you"...
it's a decision I made because I saw my patterns for the last 13 years have not been healthy...some dumb decisions...a waste of money...and health.
I want to get healthier.
Physically and mentally.
A bottle of rye chased by whatever liquor is left in the house - 5 nights a week...it's not rocket science - this is a problem.

But i'm at that "what next" situation.
I know it's a BIG problem...but...at the same time...this might sound odd: I have nothing to "show" for it.
I have nothing to "fix" except for myself. No wrongs to right.
I have mentioned to my partner before - "I am sorry I drink so much...does it bother you?" - and he has said: "Hey...you work hard! You're entitled to do what you want! It's not like it's affecting your life in a bad way, right?"

Riiiight.

I also worry about the religious aspect. I am not a religious person. I worry I will be an awkward and awful fit.
do i believe in God? Yes. But praying with others? I don't know. The "god talk"...it makes my brow furrow. I know it is all good intentions, but humans have ways of screwing up god talk - and this frightens me.

I know we are "powerless" over this...disease...but I worry.

Why are there no support groups that DO NOT have a spiritual basis?

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Saturday 17th of April 2010 01:46:32 PM

louisa · Senior Member

Hello Smiths,
Just to say hello and welcome !
Louisa

mikef · MIP Old Timer

Welcome,hope to see more of you! smile

BGG · Senior Member

Hey Smiths:

Yep, worry, worry, worry -- that's what most of us do. Turns out that almost all of my worries were rooted not in reality, but in my made up "what if" fantasies in my head. One of the things we learn to do is best expressed by an A.A. slogan: "Keep It Simple." One translation of "Keep It Simple" in early sobriety: make 90 meetings in 90 days, get phone numbers from sober A.A. members you'll meet in the meetings, and listen with an open mind. If after 90 days you don't want what A.A. has to offer, you can always look elsewhere for answers, and you will always be welcomed back if you decide you'd like to return.

I won't tell you not to worry, because that's just what we do. But, what we also do is take the action anyway despite the worry and fears, until we learn that the worry and fears were based on falsehoods anyway.

I cannot share with you about non-spiritual support groups because I have no personal experience with any. But, I can tell you that when I came to A.A., I was more than non-religious; I was a claimed agnostic, although actually atheistic (but wouldn't cop to it for fear of what people might think biggrin

). My views and attitudes about God/religion when I first came to A.A. did not prevent my recovery. I found that practicing three simple principles on a daily basis was enough to make a beginning. They are called the "H.O.W." of A.A.: Honesty, Openmindedness, and Willingness.

I know you said there was a meeting tomorrow night. Is there one anywhere in your area any sooner? Have you called your local A.A. hotline? I ask because once we make a decision, however tentative, to seek help, it's important to act on it immediately. One trait of alcoholism is that it will cause us to change our minds about getting help, sometimes almost immediately after we've made the decision. It's always best to "strike while the iron is hot."

Hope this helps.

Love,
BGG

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Aloha Smiths...Boy do I relate to that post!! I thought that way, spoke that way,
saw things that way and at times drank that way. What happened I got into
recovery and with good suggestions sat down, listened with an open mind,
listened for the similarities and learned and then I practiced what I heard others
were doing. I learned humility (being teachable which mean't that I had to
abandon all preconceived ideas that I had any answers to my problem. I had to
trust that all of the people in the rooms were not there to screw with my mind but
knew what I was going thru and willing to give me help and stand with me during
the process. I had to hope that I would recover from this disease which was taking
my life (it is a fatal disease I found out) and I had to gain the courage to
followup on what I was being told to do. Some of those things I hear here you
are concerned about and fearful of...the what if others find out, know...the what
happens to me if questions.

You told your story from your point of view what have you heard from the ones
outside of yourself. My story was only a very small part of the picture and I was
so full of ignorance (beyond my self conviction) and denial that I was the only
one telling me about how things really were. There were others concerned about
me and how I drank and behaved and as long as I could say "no problem" I
would continue the run until I ran out of running room. Alcoholism can and will
destroy every part of your life, that it hasn't done so yet has been motivation
for many alcoholics like yourself to stop and go learn at the knees of sober
alcoholics who know and know that they know how to get free of it all.

When I stopped I stopped everything, as I was told to do. If I had not I would
not have the pleasure of hearing your story and appreciating that you have a
chance of living sober which you know nothing about and that is why you are
here. You cannot do this on your own and you haven't lost everything "yet".

So one answer to your #1 statement is yet; and another is you are only using
your own perception...that of a very preceivable alcoholic.

2. Marijuana is an intoxicant. Intoxicated is not sober. All alcoholics I know of
and hang with remove all intoxicants from their lives. Alcohol and Marijuana
are mind and mood altering chemicals...we don't get to live in sanity while
under the influence.

3. Only one of the tools I have been given in recovery is the phrase, "No thanks
I've had enough" and then enjoy the whatever. Another tool was letting go of
my wife, step family, using and drinking friends and their friends and not building
relationships with liquor store or bar owners and employees, anyone who could
enable my disease.

I am alcoholic. I inherited the disease from a long line of alcoholics. I have a
daily treatment which includes working with others, reading literature, going to
meetings and doing service to my community within the recovery field. I also
continue to listen and learn. I cannot have another drink. I have gone beyond
blackouts. I have no fears today that would cause me to abandon the sobriety
I have earned and love to live with and the relationship with a all loving without
condition God of my understanding.

Stick around and listen to others. I pray you let nothing come in the way of
having what we have.

JerryF

Larry_H · MIP Old Timer

Welcome to MIP keep coming back and sharing how you feel. I was a low bottom drunk so I can not relate to a lot of your story. Except the anonymity, I felt the same way and was afraid of what my friends would think if they knew I went to AA.

I discovered this was a non-issue for me, One set of friends were very glad that I was finally doing somthing about my drinking. Another set of friends tried every imaginable thing to get me to drink again.

It didn't take a rocket scientist to discover who my real fiends were.

Post and let us know how that first AA meeting works out

Larry,
-----------------------
A person that is not an Alcoholic,doesn't lay awake at 4 am wondering if they are an Alcoholic

Avril G · Senior Member

ONLY 12 DAYS SOBER??? WOWEEE, where this alkie came from, that's one hell of a miracle my friend and well done. Now all you need to do is keep on doing what you've been doing for the past 12 days each and every day, and you will soon start to feel that life after alcohol CAN BE very enjoyable indeed.

Put it this way, If I wasn't enjoying being sober, I sure as hell wouldn't be sitting here in my 'home office' reading an AA related site, that's fer sure. Good onya, almost through the second week, one day at a time.

Smiths77 · Member

Thanks for this - all of you...Jerry F - your forthcoming approach - it's appreciated...

I do want to make clear - while I ask questions - i do not argue. I have no doubts that I do NOT have all the answers w/in myself...not at all.

I am interested in the "high end bottom" side of things.

I do look at my life...and how my friends/work perceive me.
I am very much "celebrated" amongst my friends - and I say that w/out ego.

I am extremely successful at work...I am the one my friends turn to w/ problems - relationship/money - personal - because I am "together"...(LOL) - I volunteer...I have a happy relationship...I work 45 hours a week...it's difficult for me...to grasp w/ nothing to lose here. sorry - i have PLENTY to lose...just...no "bottom line"...i am not "screwing up" right now. everything "appears" peachy...

my friends certainly don't "push" liquor on me. I could easily take a few bottles of water to a party, i'm not sure anyone would notice...

while i have had 5 night/week drinking binges...I have gone a while w/out drinking too... i'm not at the "I get the shakes if i don't drink" state...although I've certainly had them the morning after...

I keep this part of me to myself. i do. which is bad. which is why i am reaching out.

i opened up to a friend once - someone who DOES openly battle alcoholism...she asked me if i was an "alcohol abuser" or an "alcoholic"...she said the two can be one in the same...or abuser can lead to "alcoholic"...

thing is: I don't know. I read on here someone said: "normal" drinkers don't worry about drinks. Normal drinkers can walk away from a half full drink.

i focus very hard when i drink...i am usually working at home on my computer and i have 1 drink (which leads to the rest of the bottle)...

this has been an every night (or 5 night/week) thing...and there have been times when i go without for long periods of time...

it's a problem...yes. it has to be. it's not healthy. it doesn't make me feel good. so why? at the same time - there is beer in my fridge that has been sitting there for 2 months - which i really should dump - but...they're there. I have no desire to drink them...because I am focusing on staying sober.

I guess a meeting would be the best thing. I just worry... what if I have a stupid perception of myself? a bigger problem than i think? or ...if my life IS as others percieve it...?

i know i'm only telling it from my side...but - my parent's constantly congratulating me on successes...my friends throwing surprise parties for me...work patting me on the back...people coming to me asking me what i should do about this-and-that because they think i'm intelligent and have "everything going for me" - without any ego or denial: People aren't really worried about me. Honest.

I worry. but...i guess that's what "we" do.

I'm just really confused. It's a disease. yes.
i need to know the difference between someone who has "a problem with abusing" and someone who HAS the fatal disease of alcoholism...?
I've been going at this pace steady since i was 19. I'm 33 now.
Nothing has gotten worse...
and nothing has gotten better...on/off... great nights...sober nights...drunken nights...blacked out nights.

But I'm "so together"...I don't know. I'm sorry...I need to talk to someone...I'll go to the meeting tomorrow...thank you for listening to me type out my thoughts...

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Saturday 17th of April 2010 06:36:25 PM

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Saturday 17th of April 2010 06:37:17 PM

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Saturday 17th of April 2010 07:31:26 PM

slugcat · Senior Member

i think had a high rock bottom, well as a young person i used to drink mainly on the weekends then a bit more on the week nights and sometimes days as it progressed.
never got into much trouble no arrests, no jail, no mental hospitals (well actually as an outpatient) no bing caught drunk driving.i never needed a drink in the morning. i neevr drank in the morning.....sometimes during the day but not everday. As it got worse I thought someting was wrong with my character because the times i did get drunk i usually got very very drunk and often did stupid things that other people were not doing. I got blackouts sometimes also but i used to think those were normal as my friends drank like me much fo the time and we all blacked out or browned out.

i used to love drinking. But it started messing with me, i often ended up doing shameful embarassing things when drunk, and then i didnt know i couldnt predict how i would act when i drank. I also had a lot of emotional problems unrelated to drinking and when i drank on those i sometimes became violent, or at least very verbally abusive.
i endangered someones life once when i lost the plot completely in a black out and attacked someone apparently trying to kill them. but no one told me this was because of drinking! and it certainly didnt cross my mind, it wasnt like i was doing it all the time, and i had emotional problems that were blamed for this behaviour (and i dont even have a mental illness i was just going through some really stressful things) but no one thought i went crazy because of the drink. When this happened it was a really big drama and people were very upset but no one mentioned my drinking as a cause for concern. My partner at the time was drinking a lot also so maybe this is why i dont know.

i agree it would be good to check some meetings. when i started going to aa i couldnt say i am an alcholic, because i didnt know if i was. if i wanted to speak i used to say hi i am so and so and i dont know if i am an alcoholic.
i knew something was wrong but i wasnt sure how bad or whatever and it took a while for me to see i am an alcohlic.
i got a sponsor and she helped me a lot. i remeber seeing her and i was doubting i was an alki, but at the same time i could not understand how someone can not drink for a week and be normal about it.
My sponsor asked me why i didnt try aa for 3 month and see if my life improved.
well i tried it for a few weeks and then had to go out and test my drinking one more time to make sure i was relaly an alki and not just making mountains out of molehills. well my relapse told me that yes i am an alki.
i had set out to drink only 1 drink and see if i got a craving and i thought that would prove whether or not i was an alki. except it doesnt work like that, of course once i had one i decided that i mayas well have 2 and then 3 and some more. the whole idea of waiting fo a craving and battling it just faded into nothingness like it never exisited. doh. it was a really stupid idea.

i found going to as many meetings as possible helped me figure myself out, th more meetings i went togave me the chance to hear different peoples stories, and it was from hearing others and their experiences that helped me figure out if i was an alki or not. it was really important to me and helped me a lot figure it out.

like now i know i dont have to be drinking in the morning or need a detox to be an alki. i dont have to lose stuff either. the meetings really helped me figure things out. you dont have to say anyhing at them you can sit at the back and not talk to anyone if you dont want to. The literature is also really good too and helpful to read.

-- Edited by slugcat on Saturday 17th of April 2010 07:41:15 PM

-- Edited by slugcat on Saturday 17th of April 2010 07:47:07 PM

Smiths77 · Member

wow slugcat...
i see a lot of myself there.

I guess I am trying to figure out how it will change my life.

what will change...

i'm blessed. that being said - it is more than luck with me. i work hard. i don't get into fights because i don't fight. i'm not unhappy - because i live much of my life - oddly enough - by many rules of aa...I do not want what i have not got.
i dont drink and drive. i don't do illegal things. i don't even argue.
i get chatty and fabulous - and then i shut out like a light. i stumble to bed and i'm done. if i'm at a bar, i will get the nods...but i usually keep my wits about me that i can call a cab...and slur out my addy...sloppy yes. but safe.

i try to keep a clear head and do the smart thing...which is why i am examining myself the way i am...
i want to "know"...
And i want to know what to fix...

I think that's what has stumped me here:
What is broken?
Which ways has drinking affected my life negatively?
which ways has it affected the lives of my loved ones?

I know only i can answer that...but i guess i'm stumped because i can't think of any.
my life is peachy. i just want to get healthy.
and i know drinking the way i sometimes do - really isn't...

I know someone here wrote: Only *I* can determine whether or not i am an alcoholic...
Denial? Sure i am open to that. i am. but the more i search, the more i look for things in my life, in other people...and examine the way my life is ...and the way it could (or would not) change...the bigger the question mark gets.

I'm stumped. I'm cold stumped. I'll do everything i can to not drink...
it hasn't been a struggle yet. I miss my friends...but i'm hanging out with them tomorrow afternoon. Tonight they are watching movies and having some beers, so I've decided to stay home.

I'm a social butterfly of a person...I could drink the beers in my fridge tonight - but they are of no interest to me.
I miss my friends. and i miss having beer with my friends...but i need to figure this out.
I'm just confused about the whole thing.

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Saturday 17th of April 2010 07:44:03 PM

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Saturday 17th of April 2010 07:44:25 PM

Aquaman · MIP Old Timer

Welcome Smiths and thanks for keeping me sober another day.

Your initial three questions answered not with advice or "party-line" rhetoric, but personal experience which is intended to impart strength and hope.
1) I too was a high-functioning alcoholic. It still controlled me and became more and more progressively intrusive, dominating and dangerous in my life.

2) In the before-time, given a choice between booze and weed I'd take weed every time. My favorite high was good weed and strong expresso. I have smoked a couple of times since starting AA and didn't enjoy it at all. In AA I put SO MUCH WORK into becoming truly happy, serene and comfortable in a clean head...that a dirty head felt like I was ill.

3) This one I will answer with party-line rhetoric from my sponsor.
"For the first year you MUST avoid all people. places and things that are triggers to the urge to pick up that first drink. How your friends deal with your new life is their problem, not yours. If you MUST go to an event where there will be booze; bring an AA wing-man. Sobriety isn't a halfway-game, Rob. It's life or fu**in' death."

Anonymity: I live in a town of 8000 and I sell radio advertising. Everybody here knows everybody else's business and I'm in & out of more businesses than the friggin' UPS guy! I have been in a business and one of their employees that I know from meetings will walk by and we treat each other like total strangers. I pass an AA in the super-market and a simple "Hi Friend" is all that's needed to acknowledge our mutual support.
When you go to a meeting you will hear some guidelines. The most important one is "Who you see here and what you hear here, please let it stay here." and "Anonymity is the foundation of all out traditions." Even the dullest of our brethren know better than to say "Hey...I know that guy from AA."
Civilians, however, are not bound to our codes of conduct. WE are the only people bound to keep your secrets secret. If anonymity was paramount to me...I would go to out-of-town meetings. I don't care who knows that I'm in AA.

That's all I've got. I wish you the best...
Peace,
Rob

jonijoni1 · MIP Old Timer

Meetings meetings meetings and right NOW. That is the best place for you to get the support you need, becaus eyou cannot and will not stay sober nor be at opeace on your own. Ask anyone here or in AA if they had any success on their own. Doesn't happen.'

Take it from me. I just had 2 1/2 years sober amd over the past year I had slacked off and started to do things my way adn stay sober on my own without any help. It did not work, and I relapsed and got drunk and high adn it was miserable, and every bit as helpless and miserable as it was back when I first got sober. My alcoholism and drug addiciton actually got WORSE while i was sober, I just opened up Pandora's box and that is how I found out. hile I was not drinking, the level to which I am an alcoholic and drug addict did not bother me, and I did not know its growing strength until i opened the box. And now I know. and in 2 weeks back here and sober, i am again safe and protected, one day at a time, from the royal beating drugs and alcohol inflict upon me every single time. They say that while we are abstinent, our disease is doing pushups, waiting for the day we open up Pasndora's box again. So it is shut for today, and i intend to keep it shut this time, one day at a time.

Just don't pick up the drink or drug, even if your ass falls off. Put it in a wheelbarrow and take it to a meeting. That is recent advice i have gotten and it is woorking. Some prayer, a decision to stay sober every morning, and taking my butt to meeting this past 2 weeks has saved my butt, and it will do the same for you.

(hey my typing is crap tonight, bnot going to edit. i suffered nerve damage in my dominant hand while out again drinking 2 weeks ago. so, just try to read through the garbled typos, and know that an intelligent person is speaking to you, all the same). (((hugs)))
Joni

-- Edited by jonijoni1 on Saturday 17th of April 2010 09:03:31 PM

Smiths77 · Member

Thank you so much Joni! Everyone is so sincere and genuine and honest and I love it...thank you. It's a huge help. HUGE help!

Invited a friend over for a movie last night - first went to the store and grabbed a GIGANTIC bottle of club soda and some munchies...and that was it!

Survived a Saturday sober! Day 13! Sundays are usually sober anyway...so I'm not worried.

Around 10pm last night, I eyed up the bottle of vodka sitting on my counter, but realized I didn't need it...didn't want it...poured myself another club soda and sat back down. When my friend left, I dumped the vodka.

I still need to know the difference between an alcohol abuser...and an alcoholic.
Is there a difference?

I'm going to go to a meeting tonight.
thing is: I work hard. I party hard. I focus hard. I have LOTS of love in my life that I never for a second take for granted...and I give LOTS of love back.
If there is extra work to be done - i stay 15 extra hours in a week. And on the same note: If there is more beer to be poured and it just so happens I have the rest of the night free...I pour it. I do things in excess. I do them big.

The thing is: Drinking has never interfered with my ability to do any of the above. Again - not arguing, just thinking aloud, typing my thoughts...I'm new to this...I'm thinking hard.
Last night it hit me a bit though...do I like booze...or do I like the ...camaraderie which usually goes hand-in-hand with drinking?
I love social settings...I love hanging out with people...Last night, when I eyed the vodka bottle...I kind of thought: But why? - and I didn't have an answer. So I translated that out to: "that means no."
I dumped it to be safe...why have it in the house if I don't want it? That being said: The bottle has been sitting there since Christmas.
Many other bottles have come and gone...I'm just not a big vodka drinker and never have been...if it was a bottle of rye...would I have done the same?
I thought hard about this...and yes - I know I would have. I would have just poured myself another club soda. I ignored the beer in my fridge too. Which are still there. Which I'll either dump after tonight's meeting or leave. They've been there for almost a month as well.

I just need to talk about this...it's helping me put things in perspective...but I need to get a grip...is this a disease I have...or am I just a guy who needs to stop doing EVERYTHING in excess?

I'm going to an AA meeting tonight. I don't know how I feel about praying with other people...and don't get me wrong - I'm not some "higher than thou athiest" - i have a very strong belief in God...I just really take LARGE issue with people who have ruined religion with politics and ego and homophobia. I live and let live...and praying with others...I've just always been taught different than that. My parents taught me my relationship with God is mine alone... the chanting/the symbols/the signs of the cross...the reciting of someone else's words as "prayer"...I don't understand any of that...it's like "spells" to me...saying someone else's words. I think of praying as simply talking to God...I never liked churches...never agreed with many of them because the people who run them so rarely follow the message they SHOULD be preaching.

Me in a circle holding hands with strangers and praying: if there could be something that is LESS me...and this is not a stubborn thing...this is how I was brought up...for real...I'm so uncomfortable with that on so many different levels...

Again - i'm just worried. And confused. I try to keep a level head at all times, and i need to make SURE this is the right thing. To be honest - I feel like I have an amazing life...I'm just questioning. I'm reeling it in before it gets out of hand.

So far this is what I have:
13 days sober. A dumped bottle of vodka. And a meeting tonight.

That is what my "now" looks like. I'm just trying to figure out if I have a disease or not.
Because I take that very seriously...at the same time - while I relate to so much of what people are saying...there are some emotions I'm getting that I do not connect with.
You're making me think, friends...that's what matters.
I'm doing what I can do for today. And everyone's words here are a huge help and are really putting things into perspective.

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Sunday 18th of April 2010 06:06:19 AM

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Sunday 18th of April 2010 06:16:24 AM

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Sunday 18th of April 2010 06:20:52 AM

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Sunday 18th of April 2010 06:21:44 AM

Larry_H · MIP Old Timer

Smiths77 wrote:

I still need to know the difference between an alcohol abuser...and an alcoholic.
Is there a difference?

THere is a huge difference. An alcohol abuser often may drink to excess but they have no trouble stopping at any time during any given drinking episode.

The alcoholic like me on the other hand sincerely believes that they can stop. The reality is that once started they can not predict how much they will drink or how long they will drink. By the way being an alcohokic has absolutly nothing to do with how often or how much you drink. What is important is what happens when you do drink. In my case I usually drank until blackout and occasionally to pass out. A blackout is when you are still functioning but you lose the memory of what you did. For instance you wake up in bed but you don't remember how you got there and can't remember driving home.

I don't recommend you test your self, but if you really are not sure and you are not sure if you want to stop then the following test will give you knowledge of your condition.

A test of controlled drinking would be for the next month have two drinks every day no more no less. Has to be everyday and has to stop at two drinks never more.
The Alcohol abuser would have no difficulty doing this. The alcoholic would find it nearly impossible.

Larry,
----------------------------
"AA is not for people who need it, it's for people who want it."

-- Edited by Larry_H on Sunday 18th of April 2010 07:20:18 AM

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Abuse means you only drink despite having negative consequences. Dependency or alcoholism requires developing a very high tolerance, typically withdrawal when you don't do it, and frequent cravings (maybe or maybe not daily).

Smiths, another way to look at this instead of "I didn't lose that much" is this....

What did you really gain all those nights you were passing out by yourself while drinking? I drank the same way for a long time until it did get ugly and turned into more of a reckless bottom....But, what that pattern of just drinking and passing out with no major consequences for so long did to me is that it just left me feeling empty and devoid of purpose meaning and spirituality in my life. Mostly, it was a huge waste of time and it was horrible for my health. Also, I thought I was the drunk funny one, but I became the sloppy one and I can't tell you when it crossed the line, but it didn't' happen until I was in my 30s so just something to watch out for and it's good you are addressing this now.

Mark

Smiths77 · Member

thanks Larry - I'm gonna go with "no drinks" for now.

i'll talk to someone tonight at an AA meeting. I hear about the problems some people are having...and the struggles...and the hardships...I have NONE of this.

Aspects of my behaviour in the past - NOT healthy...that's for certain...but the more I talk...the more I question...and the more I listen to everyone's stories...the more I realize how happy and lucky a person I am...

I mean, yes - there have been "binge weeks" but indeed, there have been many periods where I WILL go out for a beer. and that's all it is. A beer.

I will have 2 beers at my parents house - and no more.

I will go out with a person for a drink and it is indeed one drink.

That being said...I've blacked out before too...have non-alcoholics ever blacked out?

I need to not drink ...just think. And hit a meeting tonight.

I don't want to demean the group at all by coming in - I don't wanna come off as just being some 30-something living like a frat boy who needs to grow up and start acting more responsibly.
Which could very much be the case.
I need to know if my behaviour TRULY is alcoholic...which at times I think - it is. But I need to know if it is alcoholism I have.

I hear about how alcoholics have no control...once the first drink is sipped -it's game over.

I have made decisions to get WASTED. If I worked hard...and have to work at home - and i know i'm not driving...i drink...and continue to drink...and drink and drink and drink.

If i am out to lunch with someone and we get a beer... I have a beer.

I need to know if this is alcoholic behaviour. I'll discuss it tonight. The idea that it is a "disease"... I take it seriously. And I take the diagnosis seriously. I just can't do this half-assed.

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Sunday 18th of April 2010 08:32:24 AM

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Sunday 18th of April 2010 08:33:53 AM

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Sunday 18th of April 2010 08:40:37 AM

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Smith77,

I was a very successful manager and part time business owner, married, athlete.... and had many reasons why I didn't need help with my drinking. The reason that I say this is that you mentioned (more than once) a list of consequences, from obsessive drinking, that haven't happened to you YET. We call them "Yets". Yes there are a lot of "yets" waiting for your out there. Part of you knows that, and that's the part that is wisely taking a break and seeking help with this apparent problem. The other part of you, the immature and wreckless half, is telling you that "there is no problem". We like to say that, that is your disease talking to you and that this is the only disease that tells the sufferer that they don't have a problem. Cancer, diabettis, and heart disease doesn't talk back to you like that.

Getting sober and staying sober takes a lot of focus. There has to be objective input, known consequences, and goals to obtain it. It also takes work and time. Usually humans will not commit their energy to quantities of work and time unless there is a payoff. That payoff is staying alive, primarily, followed by staying out of jail and other institutions (mental wards). Until we believe that we will die, go to jail, or lose our mind, if we don't quit drinking completely, It's not likely that we will spend time and energy, go to meetings, and work a program of recovery until we reach these conclusions. All this thinking, that you are doing, about what you've got going for you and what hasn't happened to you (yet) is counter productive to the process of accepting that you have a drinking problem, that it will wreck your life (or kill you) and is the stuff that denial is made of. We all go through it, but unfortunately, most of us have to suffer some severe consequences (lose a job, lose a house, lose a marriage, lose a driver's license, crash a car, go to jail, lose a liver....) before our denial breaks down.

We have hundreds of sayings (cliche's) in AA. The one that comes to mind here is- "The four greatest obstacles to sobriety are Youth, Health, Wealth, and Brains" and add enablers to that. Most alcoholics will have to lose 2 or 3 of these (and some all 4) before they are beaten down enough to pay attention to their disease and the treatment of it. Hopefully you'll beat the odds and quit while you're way ahead, God I hope so and I'm praying for you. Btw, I got sober at 29 years of age and it was after 2 years of going to meetings fairly steadily and floundering sans sponsor or step work. I got serious about going to meetings daily, obtaining a good sponsor, and working the steps, after losing a great job, getting charged with 2 DUIs, my best drinking buddy dying, and a failed marriage (All in 2 years time!). 21 years later, my life couldn't have turned out better if I'd planned it. More on that later.
Find a meeting to go to and get busy.

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Sunday 18th of April 2010 09:38:38 AM

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Sunday 18th of April 2010 10:50:49 AM

Smiths77 · Member

Thanks Dean...

I don't have the compulsion to consume that way - the "who can bring me some beer..." - the "anxiety"...the filling the void with something else.

I'm soul-searching. I'm soul-searching and OPEN to being in denial...but i am HONESTLY looking at everything. the things i am hearing.

I know 13 days not drinking is a big accomplishment to some...and to others - they say: "Just wait...you know nothing yet...emphasis on the the YET.."

I know. I know. I know. I know.
perhaps i am over-thinking. I hear people saying something about how "brains" get in the way...and I can't grasp that. Brains is what called me to this website. Brains is what made me raise an eyebrow and question.

the more i read...it should be clicking in...but the more I read...the less I can relate. When i heard someone say: "An alcoholic can't just have one..." - i thought: "Well...I can."

I only say that from experience. Frequent experience - since I was of legal age to drink, i have been able to have "just one". and walk away without thinking of it.

i emailed a friend about my possible "issues" and feelings - and here is what she wrote back this morning:
I think you let alcohol get the better of you.
You, through inattention or exhaustion or inertia, allow it to be the easy way out. It wrecks you and then you think you've lost control.
But really, you've lost control of a lot of things when you've lost control of booze. With the abandon of your sense of control it makes you more creative - proliffic. If you think about stuff and get control back - you are stifling that.
I think you just get overwhelmed and that's when you surrender to alcohol.

I work hard and party hard and have a glorious life. I'm a vegetarian and I excercise daily and in a happy relationship for 10 years w/ a great job...
Ahhh so much to lose.
Yes.
The "yets".

I have a zillion questions for the AA meeting tonight. but the more i read...the better i understand the disease...
the denial..yeah. I'm open to that. this could be and very much IS denial.
i get it. I am not denying that...I am only questioning...which yeah - i get it: Part of denial.

I also don't want to jump the gun. what if i am being ridiculous here?

"But but but..." they'll say: "I've seen you walk away from an unfinished drink..."
"I've seen you only have one beer."

Sounds like i'm making excuses. I'm just taking inventory of my experience...

I won't have a DUI because I had a friend killed in one. I can promise you - i will NEVER drink and drive. I don't. It will not happen and never has.
I know things change - but the chances of me drinking and driving are about as likely as me getting a sex change: It's not in the cards - not up for argument.
I've walked home in a drunken blur before - 6 miles in the snow to avoid getting behind the wheel...if one thing is ground into my psyche - sober or blacked out drunk - it is NOT to drive.

your stories are so compelling and honest and real...and I'm trying to offer only the same...my raw, naive thoughts on this...I'm so so new...to the idea of alcoholism...
but the "hopelessness" - i don't have.
I don't know that i feel hopelessness.
I drink when I'm alone and do not stop when I should and have too much - it is because a) nothing was stopping me, b) there was no consequence if i didn't stop, c)i was drinking without thinking. Just drinking. while i work on my computer.

safe at home. only my bed waiting for my drunken head.

it was a decision to drink. a decision to drink a lot and get smashed? Why? Why does ANYONe - why does a "normal" drinker make the decision to get drunk? I don't know. but non-alcoholics get drunk. non-alcoholics make dumb decisions.

some make more dumb decisions than others.

This is where i stand. i need to figure this out. but the more i read...lightbulbs should be going off...and they were...but now, it's just brick walls. I'm not relating.

I don't have the depression. the anxiety. the problems. the consequences.
I have a bright and sunny day here and a nice long walk awaiting me...and an AA meeting at 7pm tonight, which i made the decision to go to yesterday.

Someone on here mentioned I will change my mind, and i have not.
I'll go to the meeting. I have a ton of questions to ask the person in charge at the end...

am i ready to admit to alcoholism: YES. I am. I am ready to say: I AM AN ALCOHOLIC.
But if this is a DEFINITE disease...which can be passed down: I need to be SURE I'm not just a guy who has no consequences for some stupid decisions.

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Sunday 18th of April 2010 10:13:31 AM

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Sunday 18th of April 2010 10:15:25 AM

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Sunday 18th of April 2010 10:51:16 AM

AGO · MIP Old Timer

Welcome

Alcohol is actually just a symptom of alcoholism, what I mean by that is how much or how often you drink has little to do with alcoholISM

This seems to make little sense, but alcoholISM "presents" in many forms, we have periodics, bingers, daily drinkers, functioning alcoholics, low bottom drunks, high bottom drunks

What we all have in common is we can't tell you exactly what is going to happen when we put alcohol in our system every time, this doesn't mean I take one drink and wake up in Mexico with a Hooker or end up living under a bridge, it means for example if I drink ten times I can't say for certainty that although I only planned to have one or two all ten times, one of those times I am going to drink more then intended.

Alcoholism ALWAYS gets worse, that is the nature of the disease, so if an alcoholic wants to experience all of those negative consequences all they have to do is continue drinking, for X number of years it's one out of ten times that the loss of control occurs, then 3, then 7 then we find ourselves drinking again and again trying to have an experience where loss of control DOESN'T occur eventually.

It's like being pregnant, it just shows more later

Here is the criteria for Alcoholism:

If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic.

You will note it doesn't say anything about drinking every day or car crashes or being married or not married or how good looking or smart you are or how much money you make or not or whether you live under a bridge or gone to jail.

When you drink, can you stop after 2-3 or do you drink too much?

If, after you start drinking you sometimes lose control of how much you drink you may be an alcoholic.

Read these, see if you relate or identify with the descriptions, this was written maybe 80 years ago, so it deals with successful businessmen that drank until they reached low bottoms, but it shows the progress of the disease accurately

http://www.healtalk.com/public/doctor-opinion.shtml

http://www.healtalk.com/public/chapter-3.shtml

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Smiths77, The missing link for you is that this disease (if you have it) is progressive and gets worse over time. All of us were able to "walk away from a drink" and "able to just have one" at one time. Most of us were pretty happy and functional at that point also, but the writing was on the wall and over time we slid.
Never say never. Alcohol clouds the mind and impairs our decision making process. You may never drive drunk, until you're in a blackout and you are not there to remind you about your friend. Many of us woke up in Jail and didn't know how we got there, or woke up on the couch, walked outside and saw damage to front end of the car with no memory of how it happened. I've woken up in houses belonging to people I'd never met. The best of luck to you and I hope that maybe this is just something of a unconscious habit that easy to break for you, but the fact that you're here is very telling. Maybe you're just a thorough person and way ahead of the game. Bottom line is that no matter what level you're at, if you can't drink safely then you need to quit, and there are no good reasons to drink. So a rational person would walk away from drinking and not think twice about it, like riding a roller coaster and throwing up. No further thought required, just "It's something that isn't for me". A lot of people don't drink, and don't ever think about it. But the one's that do spend a lot of time thinking about drinking (or "obsessing about drinking") usually are the one's with a problem and the problem only goes away with continuous sobriety. Some people can do it on their own, and I've met a half a dozen, but they are rare. If you don't have a problem, than you should be able to not drink for months at a time and not think twice about it. Why don't you think about making a goal to not drink for 90 days and see how it goes. You can always drink again, by why not set a baseline for how you feel at 3 months without it and see if you feel good enough, and with much more mental clarity that you might consider that you don't need it.?

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Sunday 18th of April 2010 10:32:47 AM

Smiths77 · Member

Dean - I think you're bang on. I'm being thorough and I *should* have no problem going 90 days, aside from a few anti-social nights at home...

so i say now. LOL. every day is new and i have an open mind. open to being an alcoholic...open to looking AT my drinking habbits with a critical eye...open to self-inventory...open to everything.

I appreciate everyone's help and words...and I'll certainly continue to read and post... AGO - I am going to read those articles you posted right now! They sound interesting.

Thanks again,

jonijoni1 · MIP Old Timer

Smiths,
You souond like you have a similar personality as I. And some similar beliefs, like "Live and Let Live" (which the AA program actually tries to help people acheive who don't have that---- like, "hey!! If it doesn't fit inside your hula hoop, it's none of your business!!"-- I like that one)

Good on you for pouring that nasty stuff out.... but rest assured, say you didn;'t have the MEANS to go get the kind of liquor/beer you prefer...... and you really wanted a drink, then you, like me, would drink the ucky stuff, I am willing to bet.

Alcoholism vs. Alcohol misuse, over-use, heavy use, blah blah blah........ doesn't matter to me what the definition of abuse vs. misuse vs. -ism would be, because although i could read and take in the words of those definitions, the only one i could identify with is as follows:

1. When I put a drink to my lips of any kind, I can not guarantee 100% that I won't have 2 or 3 or 4, even if I pledged to just have 1. Having 1 may be possible for a night, but I can not guarantee you 100% that times when I plan to have 1, I will stick to just that one and have nothing else (lack of real and true POWER over the seduction of alcohol)

2. I cannot guarantee you, 100%, that I will do what I say I am going to do while under the influence of alcohol. I guarantee you that if I go to Starbucks and have a cup of coffee, that I can and will come home today, after that one cup. I can 100% guarantee it, that if I promise that, barring a catastrophe of some klind on the road, I will come home after one cup of coffee (or, in my case, Tall skinny latte with extra hazelnut and splenda). But if i go for an afternoon cocktail right this minute, I cannot guarantee that I will come straight home afterward. I might today, but if I try again tomorrow I might not. Alcohol, after one drink, may cloud my judgment and tell me that it's not that big a deal if I have 2. Or 3.... you get the picture.

3. What I CAN guarantee you is that if I am actively a drinker, and an alcoholic as I am, if I am not in a program of recovery like AA, and even if I AM in a recovery program, I am likely to think baout and ponder drinking on days when I have not planned to do so. I was recently in relapse mode, and in what I like to call "pergatory" even though I am not catholic. Pergatory to me, is that I don't plan to drink til, say, Friday. And I want to prove to myself that I don't need to drink til Friday. But each day i guarantee you that as an alcoholic, I will THINK about drinking, and THINK about Friday, and I may even end up saying to hell with it, and drinking before Friday. I will easily change my values and plans and promises to myself when the urge to drink surpasses the urge to stay sober.

4. Even though I have had some scrapes in life that were pretty bad and directly related to my alcohol consumption, I will rationalize that I am in control this time, and have the POWER to prevent such scrapes from occurring, even while under the influence. And then I go drink and maybe no today, but eventually, I have more scrapes. Even if those scrapes are as simple and benign as, "Shit, I have a hangover today and I really did not want to feel like crap because I have this project due and a softball game to go to and I wish I were still in bed nursing my headache!! I TOLD MYSELF I would be fresh today, and look at me now. I broke my promise to myself againa dn now I have to suffer (or find a way out of what I said I was going to do today".....)

This is all just the tip of the iceberg. This very stuff though, being POWERLESS over alcohol, the drinking of it, the thinking about it, the consequences of it.... and having a life that is unmanageable (even though I am a sweet person a nd helpful and a good worker and yada yada.....) I am alcoholic and not just an abuser, or whatever that is.

A lot of alcoholics say they are alcoholics, and they know they are because "I drank too much, too often, and for too long". PERIOD.

What if you were using Tylenol? Tylenol does not bother me and I only think about it or use it on occasion when needed. I do not htink about Tylenol EVER on a regular basis. But what if YOU could take 2 Tylenol, and then the effect of Tylenol made YOU want to take it again later? And then you said "this is the last does for tonight" but took it yet again? And you looked at me and said, "She can take 2 Tylenool and totally forget about it for months. Why can't I?" You have a problem with Tylenol and I don't. And the next day you think about when you are goig to again take Tylenol, and maybe promise yourself not to til the weekend, but then you take 2 on Wednesday after work even though you made plans NOT to.

See the POWER I am talking about? Alcohol has power over our minds. Even when we wre not dirnking, we are thinking about it. And we have become accustomed to use it to try to combat things like loneliness, stress, boredom, etc..... and it doesn't work because it casues stress, boredom, loneliness. See how simple this is?

Keep it simple. Don't worry about what the other definitions are. If I am powerless over alcohol, then I need not worry about what others can and can't get away with in regard to drinking. Simple as that. I am out to help ME, and if I knew I did not need help, I would never have asked in the first place. Right??

Nonalcoholics do not ask for help with alcohol. They do not ask themselves if they should maybe wait until the weekend to have a drink. because they are not thinking about drinking like we are, all the time.

About the meeting and praying in a circle and whatnot, I am not the biggest on praying in a circle either. Or praying with other people, or using a pre-recorded prayer of some sort. Not my thing, by nature. But it doesn;'t hurt me one bit to stand there and hold hands while the prayer is being said. Not one bit. Doing that is not like going against my values or something. It is not like purposely voting for the opposite candidate. It's just not that serious. I am neither going to burn in hell nor get sucked into a cult by holding hands with a recovering alcoholic and listening to a prayer being said. That's not the whole crux of AA anyway. AA is about getting outside ourselves and our own heads and egos and problems for long enough to care about another person and reach out a helping hand. That's the true spirit of the program, and it's "religion", if you will (there is no religion there). The only htinkg done "religiously" is that someone answer the phone when a fellow sufferer calls, someone be available to talk to a sufferer who is lonely and desparate for company, someone be available to help a man walk past the bar when the man knows he relaly doesn't WANT to go in, but feels himself being pulled in by sheer habit. That's the REAL "hand holding" in AA, the kind of hand holding that saves peoples' lives.

You are goijng to do just great in AA. Just check it out. As a kind, thoughtful person, you will feel right at home once you get there, I have a real good feeling about it.

take care,
Joni

-- Edited by jonijoni1 on Sunday 18th of April 2010 02:09:54 PM

AGO · MIP Old Timer

Smiths77 wrote:

Dean - I think you're bang on. I'm being thorough and I *should* have no problem going 90 days, aside from a few anti-social nights at home...

so i say now. LOL. every day is new and i have an open mind. open to being an alcoholic...open to looking AT my drinking habbits with a critical eye...open to self-inventory...open to everything.

I appreciate everyone's help and words...and I'll certainly continue to read and post... AGO - I am going to read those articles you posted right now! They sound interesting.

Thanks again,

Great stuff

Both Alcoholics and non alcoholics can get addicted to alcohol, but "addicted to alcohol" literally has ZERO to with the condition known as alcoholism, it might be a symptom and frequently is in more advanced cases of alcoholism, and both may need medical supervision in order to quit (DT's can kill) but when hard drinkers quit their problems go away, when alcoholics quit their life slowly becomes untenable until without treatment a return to alcohol is inevitable, and in some Doctors opinion, necessary for the alcoholic to keep him/her literally from going insane. Alcohol is our answer, not our problem, until it stops working and becomes "the problem", we come in wanting help for our drinking, when the truth is we were using alcohol to mask our underlying feelings of restless, irritable, and discontent, alcohol was the solution, not the problem, until it turns on us and we think drinking is the problem.

There is a GREAT deal of misunderstandings about this, and unfortunately the people who end up paying the price and slipping through the cracks and in some cases dying are folks like you, when they go to an AA meeting and hear "War Stories" and serious problem like what color to paint their bathroom or resentment about someone on the freeway.

In other words, fuck all about the disease of alcoholism.

To use an allegory I frequently deal with people who come to me with cuts all over their fingers, they ask me for advice about better sutures, better bandages etc and I try to explain, your problem is you juggle knives, until you address that underlying issue you will NEVER stop having cuts on their fingers, they say, "no, you don't understand, if I can just....." or "if only this then that....." they concentrate on the OUTSIDE stuff, on their symptoms, not the underlying problem.

They literally don't get the cuts on their fingers is not the problem, and go to meetings and listen to other people share about how to make better stitches or better bandages.....

This guy took it a bit further but listen to this, see if you identify with his story

http://xa-speakers.org/speakers/aa/single-speakers/clancy-i/clancy-i-47thfloridastate200364.mp3

FlyingSquirrel · Senior Member

Step 1 is the most important one... even being diagnosed as "Alcohol-Dependent" by a treatment center didn't convince me. What convinced me was the testimony of other people in A.A. meetings who were just like me. Look for the similarities, not the differences.

-----

You might want to go back and take a detached look at some of your own statements too, in this thread -- see what opinion you might have if someone else had said them to you. Would you think that person had any power over alcohol, or might it not be the other way around? Is that person's life manageable, or is it just the illusion of being manageable?

I can't answer those questions for you, obviously. For myself, I know that I thought I just hadn't yet found the magic formula that was going to make it possible for me to control and enjoy my drinking - sooner or later if I kept trying different things, at some point something was going to work for me. I wasn't powerless over alcohol, I just hadn't yet hit on the right formula or combination.

I also thought I was managing my own life just fine. Looking back on it now, that just seems laughable.

-----

Here's an excerpt from the book "Alcoholics Anonymous":

Most of us have been unwilling to believe we were real alcoholics. No person likes to think he is bodily or mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.

We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.

We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such intervals -- usually brief -- were inevitably followed by still less control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period we get worse, never better.

We are like men who have lost their legs; they never grow new ones. Neither does there appear to be any kind of treatment which will make alcoholics of our kind like other men. We have tried every imaginable remedy. In some instances there has been brief recovery, followed always by a still worse relapse. Physicians who are familiar with alcoholism agree there is no such thing as making a normal drinker out of an alcoholic. Science may one day accomplish this, but it hasn't done so yet.

Despite all we can say, many who are real alcoholics are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of self-deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right-about-face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!

Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums -- we could increase the list ad infinitum.

-----

Well, I don't know if any of this will be helpful to you - but it's helpful to me to try to help you! It's a strange program, but it works.

Glenn

Smiths77 · Member

went to my meeting...they had a man come up to speak - a long time member..55 years old... he warned us first that he "tends to go on" and he was not lying.
he went on for about 45 minutes. I know everything about him....save for ANYTHING that had to do with his struggle with alcoholism.
it was a bit disappointing. I did however, connect with a guy who was sober 17 years...i expressed more or less the same issues i had here...
he was good...he more or less said the same things ... the first step...only i can tell... powerless...etc....he gave me literature, mind you - i read them already on line.
he did say: the fact that you are HERE...normal drinkers don't think about coming to AA.
there it is again.
normal drinkers.
so yes - perhaps i am not a normal drinker.
again...i connected. i saw similiarities...sure. i did.
but...i connected only to a point.
the people there look like they have "LIVED"...and they looked like they had probably "died" too...a part of them. no judgements and i wont' get into it.
i could relate.
it was eye opening. in retrospect maybe i should have waited for an open meeting.
regardless...
i'm not sure it IS my thing. i was expecting something...i don't know...a realization...a big connection...and i walked out feeling like a COMPLETE outsider...which i know..it's normal...but i left thinking there is NO WAY i can go to another one of those. there was no eye opener. it was just...coffee talk.
in all honesty...i get far more out of talking to people on here...reading your stories...your articles...and getting your feedback - your PATIENT feedback, because i know it must be frustrating...to read some of the cliche things i'm saying, my words - i imagine they might read like a script, written by 10,000 drunks in denial before me.
i really am aware of this. of my actions. and of my control (or lack thereof) over booze...

my "moment" - was Easter weekend...April 1,2,3,4. It was very rare...I had 2 solid days off in a row, which has not happened for about 2 years. and i partied. EVERY NIGHT. hard. and on the fourth day - i had to go to a concert for work...and of course - more partying (with my work...) and i saw a friend. she emailed me the next day and said I looked rough.
she said i looked tired and rough and exhausted...and that i needed to be home in bed...not out drinking at a concert...
and it freaked me out. because i know it is not healthy.
so i started to LOOK into unhealthy drinking patterns.
out of curiosity...and yes - i saw similiarities...

i tried to approach this with common sense:
"Okay...just stop drinking. This seems to be becoming a pattern...so how about you just stop?"
That was 13 days ago...2 weeks tomorrow.
Am i stubborn? "I won't drink dammit because I say I won't!"
Am i in denial? "See? Look! No alcoholic could POSSIBLY go 13 whole days! I'm not an alcoholic!!"
Am i someone who was given a bit of a shake and opened his eyes and said: "hey...i need to slow it down before something happens?"
and I do not know if the last one necessarily MAKES me an alcoholic.
My mom once told my dad to slow down after he got hammered in front of us as kids. and he did. he still has a beer on and off today.
I once gained 30 pounds...and i was inching up on "overweight" and had to "reel it in" on the diet ...and I did...
That doesn't mean i am a food addict.
I am weighing in every possible side - your experiences...but i am going by what i know too. you know?
Like i said - i do things extreme. when i do them I "DO" them.

I explore every option until it is exhausted. and that's what i am doing here.
When i walked into AA...it was decided i was an alcoholic...that is what it felt like.
it didn't make me mad. or defensive...i might very well be - you all know more about this disease than i could EVER pretend to.

but while i do relate VERY MUCh to so much...it seems every time someone gives THEIR definition of what "alcoholic" is...I think: "Well that part doesn't fit at all...because I've never experienced that."

Oh i've experienced dumb decisions and going over-board...but STILL going...but it's hard to put this into words. something is not clicking here. i'm trying to force it to click..but it seems like everytime i am convinced i have this...someone says something that makes me go: "Wait a minute...I CAN have just one..."
any night when i have "gone overboard" - It has always been a night when it is "okay" if i go overboard. A night when i know there are no conseqences.
if i am at a bar, and i know i have to be up at 5am for yoga...i walk away after the first beer and say good night to my friends.

i'm stumped. so i made a plan based on EVERYTHING people here have told me or suggested...and everything i have read:

so...here is my plan:
I'm going to continue to visit this board. and read.
And I'm not going to drink for 90 days.
and on the 91st day...i'll have one drink.
and that's that.

"we've seen this one before," - right...?

Yes. But this is just the way it has to be.
for me.
we shall see.
one thing i promise - i'm going to read this message board EVERY day...keep updates on my DAILY sobriety...and probably ask a lot of annoying questions.

I only hope you bear with me. you have all been an amazing eye-opening help to me...really you have. that in itself - if this message board and the wisdom you are sharing is part of the program: Well - SUCCESS, it is.

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Sunday 18th of April 2010 08:44:34 PM

AGO · MIP Old Timer

Smiths77 wrote:

so...here is my plan:
I'm going to continue to visit this board. and read.
And I'm not going to drink for 90 days.
and on the 91st day...i'll have one drink.
and that's that.

"we've seen this one before," - right...?

Yes. But this is just the way it has to be.
for me.
we shall see.

That sounds fantastic, we suggest the same thing:

The bottom of page 31 contains another one of the tests for discovering whether you are an alcoholic or not when it says, We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself.Step over to the nearest barroom and try some CONTROLLED drinking.Try to drink and stop abruptly.Try it more than once.It will not take long for you to decide, IF you are honest with yourself about it.It may be worth a bad case of jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition.Ive been at meetings where it was said that if you are not sure if you are an alcoholic, why dont you go out there and drink.I believe this does a disservice to a person who is uncertain.We need to first give them information about what differentiates an alcoholic from a non-alcoholic so they can see if the experience of an alcoholic matches their own experience.They need to be told about the first paragraph on page 44 where it says, If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic.In other words, if you cant always predict how much you are going to drink once you start, and when you stop drinking you cant stay stopped even when you really want to, then this is ONLY experienced if you are an alcoholic.Please note that up until this point, the book has given us about forty pages of information by which the reader can decide if they are an alcoholic.It is ONLY after all this info that the book then suggests that if youre still not sure if you are an alcoholic, try a test of controlled drinking.A good way of doing this is two drinks every day for one month, no more and no less (and no skipping days to store up!).Just suggesting this usually sends fear into the heart of an alcoholic, or if youre a non-alcoholic youll probably think something like, I dont think I could drink all that.Either way, its a good standard for diagnosing yourself.

http://www.aaroundtable.com/literature/insanity.htm

So I would suggest using the time to learn the difference between a hard drinker and an alcoholic, get a good knowledge of YOUR condition, learn about alcoholism, ask someone with solid sobriety to go over Bill's Story, The Doctors opinion, and More about Alcoholism with you from the Textbook, Alcoholics anonymous

Then drink and see what happens

It's also important that you keep your word to yourself about 90 days, lying to yourself about your drinking is also a symptom of alcoholism.

Try the "2 drinks a day for ten days" experiment, an alcoholic can't drink 2 drinks a day for ten days, but alcoholics can quit for years at a time

Good luck whether you turn out to be an alcoholic or not, and welcome

-- Edited by AGO on Sunday 18th of April 2010 08:46:32 PM

Smiths77 · Member

thanks AGO...

I think 2 drinks a day would be a little much though. In all honestly - i'd be more unhappy with the weight i'd probably gain, than the fact that it would equal about 20 drinks in 10 days. that's a tad steep.

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Sunday 18th of April 2010 08:48:29 PM

jonijoni1 · MIP Old Timer

Great job, Smiths!! (Does your screen name have anything to do with the band the Smiths? Just curious).....

Great job.... try staying sober and then try some controlled drinking ONCE YOU HAVE STAYED SOBER FOR 90 DAYS.

And then if you need help still, we are here with open arms.

And by the way, I am an alcoholic for sure, and I do NOT like a lot of the meetings I have tried out in my area. Lucky for me, there are over 300 per week in my city, and I have found a handful of meeting that I love and have made some friends there that have stood the test of time with me. Friends that i can go out to dinner with, bowling, theatre, art museums, walks, coffee, whatever.... and we don't even talk about AA a lot fo the time, nor are we a somber lot!
So even if you DO end up needing to be in AA, there is hope, trust me on it!

(((((hugs)))))
Joni

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Aloha Smiths and here is another thought from long long ago when I first got
here. While you have no booze in your system over the next 90 days and an
open mind consider this idea how appealing is it to be without alcohol for the
rest of my life; you can add one day at a time to make the thought easier?

Just a bit of info on the thinking alcoholic and like it was said before we do
not call anyone that. I am not calling you alcoholic though I can considerably
fit your profile. When I learned that the very first place alcohol goes to in my
body is the CNS (Central Nervous System) in my brain I convinced myself to
sit and listen as directed for the similarities between their stories and mine
rather than the differences. It was in the differences that my fear resided
and once my fear was quieted I started to nod at the experiences which were
being offered to me. I am alcoholic. I have a compulsion of the mind to
drink and an allergy of the body to alcohol.

A part of my journey is that I use to sit in the rooms of recovery and not
believe what I was hearing and so I signed up for college so that I could get
the real scoop and when I graduated I had to admit that I could have saved
the tuition. Though I learned much technically about the disease and went
on to work as a counselor at a treatment program the one and only thing I
originally went for was to be convinced for myself. I had to do it that way.
I was and moderately am still analytical today...I moderate with the help
of others and humility.

Consider not having even one beer for the rest of your life. Use the
vegetarian perspective, the health perspective for support...alcohol is a mind
altering mood altering chemical. It is not a health food by any means.

Good luck...In support. smile

FlyingSquirrel · Senior Member

Good stuff, Smiths... First off, I'd suggest trying other meetings if there are some in your area. I got very turned off when I went to a meeting where some old-timer with 40+ years of sobriety and ZERO humility decided to take over the meeting and talk for 45 minutes - I left before the meeting ended and never went back to it. Experiment a bit, see what you like and don't like about different meetings.

As far as your statement that no alcoholic could possibly go 13 days without - you sound a lot like me! After I got a DUI, at first I just decided I was gonna finally quit for good. Then after a bit, I decided that I would just quit for two months and that this would prove I was not an alcoholic. (All the time, the thought of that next beer was in my head) Then I went to the treatment center to get a post-DUI assessment, fully expecting them to mark the box "abuse". Instead the assessment was "dependent". I of course protested, saying "I haven't had a drink in two months!" And never mind the fact that I was completely planning to have a beer within, oh, say 5 minutes after leaving the treatment center with my desired diagnosis of "abuse".

Although I did not agree with their assessment, the guy who had made it seemed somehow credible and knowledgeable. (Turns out he was an alcoholic addict who is currently 10 years sober.) And I was curious, plus I figured it would probably look good to the courts if I checked in for treatment. Then I got the awful news that I would be required to attend two AA meetings a week as part of the treatment. The very place I wanted to avoid the most! But I was already committed, so I went. The rest is history for me. Anyway, good luck to you and I know better than to even try to talk you out of that drink on the 91st day - if you take it, that will just be the next step for you in learning whether or not you are alcoholic.

Oh ya... as far as drinking just one drink goes, I was able to do that myself on many occasions. I specifically remember last year in January, going out with my wife after having quit drinking "for good" two and a half weeks earlier. It was her birthday, she ordered wine, and I decided it would do no harm to drink half a glass of wine. And it did no harm. So a week later, I decided it would do no harm to have a single beer. Again, it did no harm. Within that same week, I decided it would do no harm to have two beers. Again, no problem. And then the next time, after the second beer, it was all over and I drank the entire night and did who knows what. And a month later I got the DUI. So in fact, that first half glass of wine DID do some harm - because it started the ball rolling again for me. Kind of like a snowball rolling down a hill - at first it seems harmless, then it quickly picks up steam and becomes unstoppable.

Or at least that's the way it was for me. Your experience may be different, and I wish you the best of luck either way.

itsmichael · Veteran Member

Welcome, Smiths!

I can SO relate to so many of your questions and I don't think there's much I can add to the wisdom you've already gotten here.

I agonized for the longest time about being a high-functioning alcoholic. "Am I REALLY an alcoholic?" The progression of my disease has been superslow over the years, but in the last five years has gotten markedly worse. I can see now that though I've never gotten caught drunkdriving, for instance, it was only a matter of time before that happened as I was driving drunk more and more. Same thing with all the other benchmarks: never lost a job because of alcohol, but was showing up to work drunk/hungover more... never lost a relationship because of drinking, but was causing my husband more and more concern...

I ultimately answered my own question, that if my behavior was that of an alcoholic, and my thinking was that of an alcoholic, I might as well call myself an alcoholic. If everyone tells you you're a cow, and you see a cow when you look in the mirror, it's time to start mooing! And yes, that means, NO pot.... for me it even means no more of certain OTC medications that I used to abuse terribly (Sudafed).

I know for me that whether I can stay away for a drink for a day, several days, a week... when I get back to it, all bets are off and anything can happen, usually things I don't WANT to have happen, things I don't remember because I was blacking out more and more. Ultimately, I have no power of the progression of my alcoholism.... whether or not I drink everyday or not, it just over the long run gets worse and worse. Nothing good's gonna come of a situation like that, so I have had to make the decision... get out of the game before I lose any more!

I wish you the best on the start of your recovery journey, Smiths, and offer you my hand in friendship and support!

Michael

Smiths77 · Member

Update:

Day 16 sober.

FlyingSquirrel · Senior Member

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Congrats on 16, Smiths. Btw, consider attending a couple more meetings when you have time. All meetings are different due to the membership and you can't judge AA meeting by going to one. It's usually suggested to attend 5 or so, but if you hit 2 more you should find one that like or enjoy. There's always that someone that you hear and really connect to. You hear them speak and wonder if they've been "reading your mail" as you relate to the similarities. Are you reading the Big book of AA online? It's free here. http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_tableofcnt.cfm

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Wednesday 21st of April 2010 06:33:24 AM

Smiths77 · Member

sure am! I'm reading it - and it's eye-opening. it really is.
an ego maniac w/ low self-esteem. yes, yes and yes.

an alcoholic...as I said: I'm open. the more i am reading though...the more i do not connect with some of the hardships and struggles AA members go through...

i also went to another meeting...I sat at the back and observed and...I don't know.
Maybe it's just the way I am...I get more out of reading chapters in the book online and reading stories here than i do in those meetings.

and please don't interpret this as: "I'm fine! I just want an excuse to get back to drinking..." - not at all.
I'm comitted and so open. 17 days sober. no plans to drink. no one has noticed - not that anyone should notice. i'm also talking about it to a few friends - one who is an alcoholic and one who is not...

both of them are concerned...and think what i am doing is the right thing...only because they said they support whatever decision...but they are also concerned I'm jumping to a conclusion...

they said they have HONESTLY never in a zillion years EVER thought I had a drinking problem...
that being said: They told me if it's something I think I need to watch: Yes. Absolutely - watch.
They support me. but they were more concerned that I THOUGHT i was an alcoholic.
My friend reminded me about every single time I was designated driver...which was many times. and I sat in the bar with everyone and drank soda water all night...
And I forgot about those times.
She reminded me of times when I would have a drink with everyone and leave early...because I had to get up the next morning...
but - she said: "Do whatever you have to do!" support.

"A social butterfly can be an alcoholic...but a social butterfly does not MEAN you are an alcoholic."

a friend said that to me. most of the conclusions i am making are COMING from "the Big Book"...
the things i am hearing...yeah - i relate to many...but the little things... the lack of control, the inability to walk away from a drink...the consequences and impact...I wonder sometimes if i just need to grow up a little. that's what this is.
growing up isn't easy...it's bumpy.
i'm not self-diagnosing myself with anything! i'm just reading and watching and learning and not drinking.

i'm trying to keep asking myself - EVERY SINGLE TIME I question something: "But is this just denial?"
And no. it's not.
"An alcoholic has no control once he/she takes the first sip."
- this is simply NOT THE CASE for me.

Just so everyone understands why I'm questioning.
when i look around the AA Room...i say to myself: This is where you belong.
I try. I say it like a mantra, to convince myself.

then i listen to the stories...
i listen to the stories of the way drinking has impacted the LIVES of some of these people - and words like "awe-inspiring", "humble", "miraculous" they all come to mind.

It's brilliant. they describe the differences between themselves and other people...normal people who can sit down and have a drink...and go to bed w/ their families and wake up early and NOT think about drinking...
and that's what i relate to.
One woman described the difference between herself (alcoholic) and her brother (not alcoholic) and how they lived their lives...and her brother - was ME to a "T"!
Partier...but minus the helplessness.
I related to him in her story...more than her. that says something. and i was being honest. i was being brutally honest - but when someone is describing one scenario...and then another...it's option A or option B.
Her brother - was me.

In fact, i never really thought all that much about my drinking until I started reading up on it here...

i'm thinking. that's all i can say. and i tend to over-think everything.

i'm also stubborn and dedicated - things that can work for and against me...and i'm sticking to 90 days. and then one drink.
and maybe i'll go another 90 days. who knows?

I figure - it's important enough to care. to look into it.
that's all i've got. one day at a time.
in the 17 days since i last drank...my life has stayed the same.
It's still absolutely every bit as WONDERFUL as it was 18 days ago.
i love my job, my family, my neighbourhood, my friends.
Life is good. that's something else the program has taught me.
Life rocks. everything i need - i have - or I work until I can get it...and it's pretty much always been that way for me.

that's it for me. no drama. it is what it is.
I'm open and doing this.

To see.

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Wednesday 21st of April 2010 06:56:36 AM

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Wednesday 21st of April 2010 07:00:12 AM

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Wednesday 21st of April 2010 07:01:09 AM

Larry_H · MIP Old Timer

Smiths77 wrote:
i'm also stubborn and dedicated - things that can work for and against me...and i'm sticking to 90 days. and then one drink.
and maybe i'll go another 90 days. who knows?

Are you are seeing if you can stay away from drinking for 90 days and then only have one drink as a test to see if you have a problem?

If so I did that simiar thing many times while I was deep into Alcoholism I wanted to prove to myself that I had no problem. I was in the Navy on ship and we would head out to sea and some times during the Vietnam war we would be on station in the Tonkin Gulf for as long as three months and I did not drink. I would say to myself "See an Alcoholic could not do that" But this alcoholic can do that. It kept me in denial for a long time.

What I could not do is have two drinks every day no more no less for a month.
You may not be an Alcoholic but having two drinks no more no less every day will show you if you are or are not. Don't try to tell me that two drinks is too much for you because in your own words from your first post you said "I also drink alone, often - and when I start drinking...I cannot stop. I do not stop until I black out and pass out. I do this about 5 times/week."

You also stated that

"I think 2 drinks a day would be a little much though. In all honestly - i'd be more unhappy with the weight i'd probably gain, than the fact that it would equal about 20 drinks in 10 days. that's a tad steep."

This is a contradiction that does not equate.

By the way I never in my life wanted only one drink. I would pass if offered one drink and I knew that was all I could have. I always wanted to get drunk and control my drinking. Now there is also a contradiction.

Larry,
------------------
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind. ~Author Unknown

Smiths77 · Member

Hey Larry...my apologies...I should have said: "I have done this about 5 times a week" - i do tend to go on binges. not EVERY week.
UP TO 5 times/week.

When i am working...alone. I have drank and it's been automatic.
glass empty. fill her up. glass empty. fill her up.
oops! Smashed!
this is the unhealthy pattern that i have been THINKING about...i never used to think about.

I'm torn on what to do now?
Drop my 90 days no drinking...or start having 2/day?

2 drinks EVERY day...for a month?
I've NEVER done that.
EVER.

Not that I am the picture of health...nor are my drinking patterns...but I'm sorry - no normal person WOULD or SHOULD have 2 drinks a day...
I'm not saying I am a normal drinker...but I don't think this is a healthy or logic option, at all.

the problem: it's me.
i'm not looking at the entire picture here.

i'm examining what is bad and what needs to be looked at...and i'm ignoring other things....huge aspects which need to be looked at.
90 days or 2 drinks every day?
I don't know. I'm being told to drink every day now. and this is frustrating. Could i do it? Yeah.
Do i want to?
no i don't.

i don't want 2 drinks a day, every day. I *LIKE* to drink when I *want* to drink.
SOmetimes I like to drink a lot.
Sometimes I don't.

I'm not getting this at all.
I'm loving the stories...the experiences...relating to some...not to others.
But I am seriously starting to question whether all of this drama is something I've created.

Unhealthy - sure.
But the vegan who works out 8 days a week will tell the guy who has french fries 5 nights a week that HE is unhealthy too.

And the vegan would be correct.

Is it WRONG to have french fries 5 nights a week?

yes.
does it mean the guy who has french fries 5 nights a week is suffering from food addiction? Not necessarily.
But he very well could be.
I'm not comparing alcoholism to food addiction...but both are VERY real problems.
And people who do not suffer from EITHER sometimes share behaviour with those who do.

I've created this drama myself...I should have read a bit deeper.
Here is what I am going to do - my decision.
I'm going to give you updates on sobriety...but I have to be honest - I'm getting mixed messages from every side...and I'm not relating to much of this at all anymore.

Some saying "AA recommends" the 90 days no drinking...
Now someone else saying it's supposed to be 2 drinks a day..?

That's a recipe for a complex. Makes ZERO sense to me - and THAT is something that is not equating.

And Larry - I *HAVE* in my life wanted only one drink. and I have had only one drink.

doesn't make me any less "alcoholic" or any less "better" - but i came into this QUESTIONING. my original subject was: "I have questions..."

Some strong similiarities...yes.
but part of this is my fault - i only gave a 1/2 picture.

I came into this OPENLY and HONESTLY qusetioning.
now i feel like i am being diagnosed...
someone on here said: "only the person can determine whether or not they are an alcoholic..."
my question:
can one not look and question himself CRITICALLY and HONESTLY?
Or must i resign myself to the fact that "YES INDEED, I am an alcholic - when so much of my life and my actions and MY DRINKING is NOT the behaviour of an alcoholic?"

I only discovered this BY questioning. Yes - there are similiarties...but there are HUGe contradictions too.

that's my question.

I'm questioning. and open. but when i diagnose myself...I'm CLAIMING I have a desease...and i'm shutting the door on a LOT of unanswered questions that contradict this disease.

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Wednesday 21st of April 2010 08:13:55 AM

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Wednesday 21st of April 2010 08:17:22 AM

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Wednesday 21st of April 2010 08:37:46 AM

Larry_H · MIP Old Timer

I am not saying that you need or should have two drinks every day - What I ment was this is a fairly accurate test of alcoholism.

What prompted me to mention it was your statement that you were going to stay sober for 90 day and then have 1 drink.

My question is why?

Larry,
--------------------
Nobody is too dumb to get sober but plenty of people are too smart.

Smiths77 · Member

Larry - to answer your question - "WHY?"

Someone on here suggested it.

I'm getting FAR too many mixed messages on here.
From the meetings, from different members...different threads of advice...

It's unclear...I'm making problems for myself. I went into this questioning my drinking...and I've given myself a complex and am now questioning whether not I should go with this "2 drink a day" deal...which...makes no sense.
None.

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Wednesday 21st of April 2010 08:32:25 AM

Larry_H · MIP Old Timer

Wow someone suggested it.

OK I would be confused also.   So lets fall back a regroup at the basics which
are:

1. Don't drink today (24 hours) no matter what and renew this determination each morning.

2. Read the Big Book on line if you don't have one especially the first 164 pages.

3. Go to as many AA meetings as you can. We suggest 90 meeting in 90 days but if that is not possible do as many as you can.

4. While you are there listen for thing that you can identify with. Feeling and experiences that you had also.   Forget about the differances. We all have differances and our minds try to pounce on them as reasons that I can't be an Alcoholic. Take me for exmple I never had a DUI but most have. My mind could say Larry you are not like them, you never got a DUI.

5. Raise your hand and share at the meetings. Share honestly what your thoughts
and feelings are. Exactly like you have been doing here with your posts.

6. Find someone that seems to have it all together and ask them to be your sponsor.   We all need a guide to work the steps.

7. Don't worry about the GOD thing if you don't believe. We have many atheist and agnostic members getting and staying sober in AA.

8. Keep an open mind. Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong.

Do this for 90 days and if after that time you feel you do not fit in with us than go back out. If things change we will be here.

If you do fit in here you will find a wonderful life ahead far beyond your wildest dreams.

I wish you well my friend

Larry,
-------------------
Don't drink, and go to meetings.

Smiths77 · Member

thanks Larry...

THIS - i get.... smile

It makes sense to me.

Ms London · Veteran Member

Smiths, I can so identify with a lot of your posts. I am wrestling with whether I am a true alcoholic or not. 90% of the time I can be perfectly fine and have one or two drinks. Sometimes I can even not have a drink if it's offered to me. But that other 10% of the time I completely lose my mind, and the consequences are always awful. This has been going on for years, this routine, and I do not have any control over it.

Smiths77 · Member

Hey Ms. London...

Yeah...it's questions. I mean....every person I know...has had "one of those nights" - maybe they didn't eat enough that day..maybe they forgot they took that sinus pill that doesn't mix well w/ booze...maybe they just flat out didn't know when to say "enough" and alcohol blurred their judgement...but "those nights" they have happened to many of us...alcoholic and non-alcoholic.

the behaviour...the scenario...if you analyse it: Yeah...it's the EXACT behaviour of an alcoholic...

a girl at a bar with friends. she does a few shots, shares some pitchers...maybe drinks a bit too fast because...who knows? she's nervous in social settings...and then: Smashed. More drunk than she knows.

it happens to anyone. alcoholics and non-alcoholics.

i've had my share, that's for sure. i think it's universal to say: No matter what - it is NOT healthy. it's not a good thing.

Someone on here said: Quitting drinking isn't a bad thing AT all - alcoholic or not...it is a toxin...it's not good for us. in a perfect world - no one would drink.

I imagine that's true.

I mean - in a perfect world - we would all have tiny waist lines...and eat healthy portions of fresh organic vegetables and drink only spring water out of enviro-friendly bottles.

but - reality.
We all have lines and limits of what we can stand and how much we affect the world and people around us. different limits. different losses. different lines to cross, i imagine so any way.

In the end - I guess we have to face up that we will never be perfect...and we have to ask: Can I live this way? Is this ENOUGH? Is this life for me? Am I okay? Are the people around me okay?

If one can HONESTLY answer: "This is okay, I can live like this and be healthy" - (and we're truly NOT in denial about reality) then I think we're laughing. That's half the game. Knowing when to laugh. Knowing when to say "This is okay."
Knowing when it is "enough" - which, I imagine is a pretty rare thing. We just have to appreciate what we have while we have it - take one day at a time for what it's worth...and make sure "this" is the right path we're on.

A work in progress...just hopefully working in the right direction, or at least one we can live with. I don't know...it's just how I see things...right now.

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Wednesday 21st of April 2010 02:13:54 PM

Ellen E · Senior Member

I'm always saying what the "oldtimers" told me, but that's because they had experience with sobriety and other alcoholics, both sober and not, and I learned to listen closely to what they had to say.

One thing I heard them say was, "People who aren't alcoholic don't wonder if they are."

I also heard them say, "Take what you can use from meetings and leave the rest. If you don't like what you hear, listen for the things you can use, then."

"Don't look for the differences and the things that's aren't true for you, look for the similarities."

I could always stop drinking. I must have sworn off a thousand times. I just couldn't stay stopped, that's all. And I could never know, once I started, where I was going to stop. I might say, "I'm only going to have a couple" and then stop at a couple---once, twice---who knows? But sooner or later, I was going to take a drink and then end up who knows where? And the longer I drank, the less often I could depend on just having one or two before blowing it and ending up in disgrace.

High bottom? Yeah, I was a high bottom drunk the first time I came to AA. Three years later, I was a low bottom drunk crawling back to AA. You just have to decide where you want to get off the elevator to hell.

I had family members and friends who never thought I was as alcoholic. Go figure! But the important thing was for me to admit it, not for them to believe it.

Anonymity? I found out I sure wasn't anonymous when I drank and got thrown out of a bar or invited every Tom, Dick, and Harry home with me after the bars closed. I wasn't anonymous when I came to work so hung over I couldn't do my work well, or came in with black eyes. When I admitted I was alcoholic and trying to do something about the problem, things started looking way up. If I admitted that was the case, it went a lot better for me than trying to hide it and protect my "anonymity". I don't care now who knows I go to meetings now.

Oh, and about the serving alcohol or attending places where it's going to be served---I don't choose to serve it. I've been sober long enough now that I can be around it without it threatening my sobriety but I don't go where it's served unless I have a legitimate reason for being there.

I had to get some new friends, but I also found that my old friends stayed my friends and highly respected my decision to stop drinking. In fact, many thought it was high time I did.

One last thing---I found out that if I hadn't been an alcoholic, it wouldn't even have bothered me to think of stopping drinking and going to AA.

-- Edited by Ellen E on Wednesday 21st of April 2010 03:50:14 PM

-- Edited by Ellen E on Wednesday 21st of April 2010 03:53:07 PM

Smiths77 · Member

Thanks Ellen. I'm not here to argue with anyone.
I hope I'm continuously making that clear.
I'm also not here to be diagnosed.

Just asking questions. I've never claimed to be normal. No one is.

Just helping each other out here.

I do focus on the similiarities. But I am looking at the ENTIRE picture.

When I had issues with my wisdom teeth - i focused on the similiarities i had with that of a person suffering from oral cancer.
BIG similarities. and i got freaked.

There were also some HUGE differences i failed to see.
And it was IMPORTANT i opened my eyes and recognized those as well.
And I am seeing them. Sorry if I am not supposed to...but I am looking COMPLETELY and honestly at EVERYTHING.
I have to look at the whole picture.
Different strokes for different folks.

I'm treaing this like anything else. I'm concerned or I wouldn't be here.

Perhaps I shouldn't be here. That's what I'm thinking more and more so I'm going to just give updates from here on out.

I'm not sure how else to put it...it's a gorgeous day...today.
no elevator stops in hell.

-- Edited by Smiths77 on Wednesday 21st of April 2010 03:59:13 PM

Reffner · Senior Member

This SIMPLE program tells us to "take it easy" You can't believe how much alike you and I were when I first started AA. I had to have ALL the answers, and I needed to KNOW that I was absolutely 100% an alcoholic before I was going to commit to anything that would MAKE me have to quit drinking. I took a super SIMPLE program and worked hard to make it into something it wasn't. For me it's simple...

I'm an alcoholic

I can't drink

Life is WAY better when I don't drink.

It's simple. Non alcoholics don't worry about drinking too much. Non alcoholics would never be having this conversation. You and ONLY YOU can decide if your an alcoholic or not. If your not, then why are you so worried about drinking too much? If living with the pass outs/black outs is acceptable to you, then by all means, continue on. Maybe you only have a drinking problem, but a problem is a problem, right? You want hard facts, and there simply aren't any...at least not the kind your looking for. Remember, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. It says nothing about having to be an alcoholic to join us. Our first step said we were powerless over alcohol, not we were alcoholics.

My sponsor told me if I have to ask how to keep it simple, I'm not keeping it simple. For me, simplicity led to balance in my life, and that's a damn good thing today!!!

God bless... Brian

Smiths77 · Member

Thanks Brian...I'm in the wrong program.

"taking it easy" and finding out you have a disease are two very different things.

I need to take it easy.
I'm not looking for an excuse to stop drinking.

However, this program is not for me.

I needed to "take it easy" and that's what i'm doing. That's what i've always done.

I need to enjoy life and quit over-thinking and dwelling on problems that aren't there.

Done.

FlyingSquirrel · Senior Member

Good luck, Smiths. We're here if you change your mind, and we won't get all snide or snickery saying "told you so" if some new information or experience comes to you that makes you reconsider. As the saying goes, we don't shoot our wounded.

smile