Is it possible to ban a person from a groups meeting??

Pablo · Member

Is it possible to ban a person from a groups meeting??

Tessa · Senior Member

I guess it can be done. But, to even think of banning a person from an AA meeting is beyond me!! Maybe he's disruptive, etc. But, as long as he isn't harming anyone physcally why ban a person who someday may sit there quietly & hear a message & start to become an active member of the group. Sounds like you & your group are unwilling to accept a person & reach out to help them. Remember the only requirment to be a member is a desire to stop drinking!! I wasn't disruptive but, I really had an attitude when I first came in & refused to listen because I thought I was better than the low lifes there. Boy, was I in for an awakening!! I am so glad I stayed!!! We have a lot of those in our meetings. But, we accept them & hope one day they will come around.:)

-- Edited by Tessa on Saturday 6th of February 2010 12:27:32 PM

-- Edited by Tessa on Saturday 6th of February 2010 12:28:08 PM

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Here's some brutal wording concerning the sincerity of a member of AA from the "Akron Pamphlet". Doesn't say anything about banning someone, but it does give more than a hint to what Dr. Bob (who had the pamphlet commisioned) thought about personal commitment to sobriety. biggrin

Obviously this is some antiquated literature and not widely used (a group here called the "No nonsense group" does read it at there meeting).

"Definition of an Alcoholic Anonymous: An Alcoholic Anonymous is an alcoholic who through application of and adherence to rules laid down by the organization, has completely foresworn the use of any and all alcoholic beverages. The moment he wittingly drinks so much as a drop of beer, wine, spirits, or any other alcoholic drink he automatically loses all status as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous.
A.A. is not interested in sobering up drunks who are not sincere in their desire to remain completely sober for all time. A.A. is not interested in alcoholics who want to sober up merely to go on another bender, sober up because of fear for their jobs, their wives, their social standing, or to clear up some trouble either real or imaginary. In other words, if a person is genuinely sincere in his desire for continued sobriety for his own good, is convinced in his heart that alcohol holds him in its power, and is willing to admit that he is an alcoholic, members of Alcoholics Anonymous will do all in their power, spend days of their time to guide him to a new, a happy, and a contented way of life.
It is utterly essential for the newcomer to say to himself sincerely and without any reservation, "I am doing this for myself and myself alone." Experience has proved in hundreds of cases that unless an alcoholic is sobering up for a purely personal and selfish motive, he will not remain sober for any great length of time. He may remain sober for a few weeks or a few months, but the moment the motivating element, usually fear of some sort, disappears, so disappears sobriety.

TO THE NEWCOMER: It is your life. It is your choice. If you are not completely convinced to your own satisfaction that you are an alcoholic, that your life has become unmanageable; if you are not ready to part with alcohol forever, it would be better for all concerned if you discontinue reading this and give up the idea of becoming a member of Alcoholics Anonymous.
For if you are not convinced, it is not only wasting your own time, but the time of scores of men and women who are genuinely interested in helping you."

If you want to read more of this fascinating AA document from 1940

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aamanual.html

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Saturday 6th of February 2010 12:41:35 PM

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Saturday 6th of February 2010 03:29:15 PM

Pablo · Member

I would like to thank both Tessa and Dean for their collective input and the sharing of the experiences and insight into our groups problem.

This issue has divided the group into two factions and I believe your response echo those of the groups, "on both sides" and the difficulty of arriving at an informed group conscience decision.

God Bless to you both!

Pablo · Member

My Thanks to the both of you for your informed input. The group is divided into two factions and I believe both of you would be on oppisite sides in trying to arrive at a group conscience decision.

God Bless to you both!

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Hi Pablo, we had somewhat on an intense debate here about what to do with drunken people in meetings who want to continue to speak. I'll find the thread and post here in a few minutes. http://aa.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=42735&p=3&topicID=33453018
It's a tough call and one that I wouldn't want to make. Has the group thought about making it a "closed meeting"?

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Saturday 6th of February 2010 01:25:47 PM

kld47 · Senior Member

Hi

It looks like some of you missed the point here--there are 3 Developmentally Handicapped People we are talking about--who sometimes have no control over outbursts

Yes, it is possible to ban someone from a particular meeting. But this is a far different case.

Here you have an Individuals that is/has been drinking and NOW has Physical or Mental results--it is possible that some of the behavior was/is caused by other problems throughout this Persons life.

This is more of a Handicap Issue, and could come under some ADA rulings.

Look at other people with various handicaps--they live as much as normal as they can--but with outbursts and other behavior at times.

As long as no one is getting hurt then they should be able to remain--they have the same right as anyone else to attend a meeting to gain information on helping with their problem.

If it is a real problem with the persons being there--then maybe one or more could go to that persons place of residence and hold a small meeting in more comfortable surroundings.

It sounds like these people is/are living at a foster care facility, but is/are allowed out for various activities.

Just my observations and how to handle some of it.

-- Edited by kld47 on Saturday 6th of February 2010 01:59:58 PM

Pablo · Member

To: kid47

Thank you for your input! Our group has been debating this issue since August 2009. This individual is married and he and his wife live togeather in an apartment complex!!

Our group has been on-going for 33 years and has never had to ban a person from its meetings. The individual in question gas been denied access, told to leave meetings twice, in the past 6 weeks.

The group conscience is split evenly on this issue and all members are trying to remain objective and open minded. What used to be a debate over this issue quickly turns into an arguement over the subject.

I am trying not to represent either side or appear to be taking sides. Given the length of time we have been debating this issue speaks volumes as to the sensitivity of the group conscience. My fear is that group itself will be negatively impacted unless there is at least a period of reprive from the individual. This individual is developmentally delayed but is very street smart. The group conscience on the 25 of October decided to have the individual banned from meetings for two months, however, mixed emotions would not allow the individual to be banned.

My occupation was as a special needs counsellor for 15 years this is not a mere case of discrimination. I personally feel if he were not mentally delayed the situation would have been resolved months ago. Would banning the individual for two or three months with terms attached to his return work. ie: An expressed desire to stop drinking, an attempt to show up on time, stay seated throughout the meeting etc. be acceptable??

Wolfie · Veteran Member

"There are those, too, who suffer from grave mental and emotional disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest." No one said they would recover from their serious mental and emotional disorders, its just alcoholism they're talking about here.

"we may refuse none who wish to recover."

seems to me like they had these problems a long time ago. I used to show up drunk and sit in the back row singing songs. I'm sure I pissed a few people off. they told me to be quiet a few times but they never ever told me to leave and they never ever told me I couldn't come back.

I heard about a group who banned a member because he was 13-stepping. he relapsed and committed suicide. wouldn't want that on my conscience, especially if the solution was just being a bit more tolerant.

newcomer · Senior Member

No would not want it on mine either, I had a situation in a meeting the other day where someone kept falling on me, sneezing over me, etc. This individual showed me great kindness when I started attending meetings. This is what I remember, so I kept repeating the serenity prayer but I still got a lot out of that meeting, and it shows me that I am capable of being more tolerant than what I was. I'not getting involved in debates about banning people because there for the grace of God go I. Also Live and let live is a valid slogan.

-- Edited by newcomer on Saturday 6th of February 2010 03:21:35 PM

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

From my experience...yes it is. Group conscious and group action. The traditions live.
smile

Toad · Senior Member

Howdy,
Wolfie replied "There are those to who have grave mental and emotional disorders,"---------
IF THEY HAVE THE CAPACITY TO BE HONEST. If the individual cannot comprehend the fact
their acting out disrupts the group, and needs a baby sitter just to maintain some sort of control over disruptive behavior, one may wonder if the individual even knows what an alcoholic even is.
Much less understand the key role meetings play in the alcoholics life. Sometimes unconditional
love looses all practical common sense.

ljc · MIP Old Timer

Has anybody in the group offered to help/sponsor this person ????
A good sponsor or even sponsor team could be the answer to the problem.

I dont think banning ppl from meetings is the answer.

John · Admin

RE: Is it possible to ban a person from a groups meeting??

Absolutely. Tradition 1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.

Based on your share this situation is already causing some level of division within the group.

AA is not a adult day care center, mental health group therapy session, ...ect.

In our meetings are men and woman who are trying to find out how to stay sober, just one day. Then learn how to build and live productive lives in society. Some still have a case of the shakes, they feel like they are hopeless and dying on the inside. They are who we are here to reach.

When someone without a developmental handicap shares in a AA meeting a long, drawn out story of how much trouble they had trying to string their weed eater, how is this helping that newcomer whose body is begging for a drink? They didn't come to AA to learn about how to change the string on a weed eater, they came here to learn how to stay sober one day at a time. They are not getting what they came here for, and as a result may not make it back.

When someone with a developmental handicap is repetitously disruptive, deminishing the ability of the group to carry a message of recovery and hope to the newcomer, for the group not to interceed could be killing another alcoholic that reached out to us for help. Groups all over the world have a format, that while varying a bit, have a common theme, to bring about a meeting that has a strong potiential of reaching the newcomer with a message of hope, that they too can recover, and how this is done. When any individual repeatedly disrupts the groups ability to carry out its primary purpose, while we cannot remove them from AA as a whole, we can elect that it is in the groups best interest to have them seek their recovery needs else where. An alcoholic that is drunk and disruptive may need to be escorted out of the meeting, or even allowed to sit through it, being a drunk. There is a good possibility he will be sober and cognisent tomorrow and start his journey of recovery. The developmentally disabled is still going to be developmentally disabled tomorrow with the same level of mental cognisence. Drink or no drink. This person is outside our purpose and scope. We need to keep tradition 5 in play here, we are best suited to do one thing well, not be everything to everyone.

I venture to say the person who is so developementally disabled that they cannot be compliant to meeting protocol or format, and interfers with the attention others are able to pay to those who are trying to share a message of ES&H, did not come on their own accord, but were brought to the meeting as a standard procedure of a institution. This being the case, the group can elect to address the institution regarding the individuals disruptiveness, and even request that they refrain from bringing any one who is not cognisent enough to handle themselves appropriately in such a 12 step meeting environment. Another reasonable request is that at the first indicator that someone from their facility is going to be disruptive they are escorted out of the meeting by their staff member immediately. My experience with such situations reflects that when the institution is approached they will often do their own banning. If they think it will adversely effect the others from their facility attending the meeting, they will weed out the troublesome one on their own for the benefit of the others.

As for banning a 13 stepper, I fully support it. Yes, they may go back out and die. Taking adventage of the vunerabilities of others in the rooms is a strong indicator they were already headed in that direction. If the elders of the group has addressed them about it to no avail, my concern for them will never supercede my concern for the newcomer they are attempting to take adventage of. Whispering sweet nothings, deceptive and manipulative isolation, creating dependence upon themselves, in short grooming the vunerable who have yet to learn how to deal with a twisted emotional center, places the vunerable member at more risk of a relapse that they may not return from, than banning the con ever will.

The groups best interest has to come first.

Having said all of this, let me insert here, that I also fully agree with and support our code as outlined in the Big Book. Our code is "tolerance and love". Not exclusively, but inclusively, for the greater good of the whole.

John

-- Edited by John on Sunday 7th of February 2010 03:02:46 AM

FlyingSquirrel · Senior Member

Start making decaf coffee as well, and make sure he gets the decaf without knowing it. Maybe he won't be so off-the-wall.

smile

(That was a serious suggestion. Caffeine affects different people differently and it's possible that it's a contributor to his behavior)

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

We recently banned a person from our clubhouse for similar reasons. The line was drawn when he started to be threatening towards female members. You are not banning the person from AA, but from your group based on his or her behavior. If they have the capacity to be honest, they will learn from it and attend another meeting with appropriate behavior. I'm only saying this to the degree that a person attends meetings and is so totally disruptive and frightening to others that it impededes on their recovery and other people stop coming to the meeting because of them. This is and was a very rare circumstance. 1st person banned from the clubhouse in years that I know of.

Wolfie · Veteran Member

Well since we're going to quote Traditions, perhaps we should note the passage in Tradition 1 that states very clearly that "No AA can compel another to do anything; nobody can be punished or expelled." "Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon AA unity." So personal recovery(my recovery, your recovery, this unfortunate individual's recovery) depends upon adherence to all AA tradition. To ban someone from an AA meeting because his behavior is different than ours is obviously not in keeping with AA Tradition and therefore not in keeping with the unity of AA and therefore not going to preserve our common welfare.

When you're lying in the gutter reaching out for help, I hope his hand is the one that reaches down and helps you up. have a great day.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Again, nobody is expelling anyone from AA just from 1 meeting or 1 site. Unfortunately or fortunately in some cases, the law of the country overrides our traditions. We cannot tolerate law breaking, harrassment, and threatening behavior. That is against the law of the country and it supercedes traditions. This could become a hairsplitting argument and obviously a slippery slope when we start kicking people out of meetings. That is why the only circumstance should be after a situation with a person gets serious enough that it is infringing upon breaking laws.

bikerbill · MIP Old Timer

Yes it is, anything is possible but is it the right thing to do?

Wolfie · Veteran Member

thanks bikerbill....I think that's what I was trying to say.

I guess if you're really concerned about it, send a letter to GSO in New York and see what they say. no doubt they've encountered this same question before.

Wolfie · Veteran Member

John raised a good point about the guy who's stringing his weed eater. We got a lot of members at our meetings and other groups who are cross-addicted. They go to AA and NA and we don't care. Sure, sometimes they use terminology that members who are just alcoholics are not familiar with, but you gotta be open to change. as long as it doesn't become a discussion on the best place to get methadone carries, we don't care what their other problems are. Because when it comes right down to it, there is only one requirement for membership.

I have strong opinions on certain subjects and I tend to come across in a way that I don't intend and after I've given it more thought I say oh there you go again. So certainly I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do. I just sound like I am.

I brought this topic up at my home group in the form of a question I borrowed from AA literature.

Is there some type of alcoholic I don't want in my group? And that's a very broad area. Different people would have different views. The glaring examples were people of different cultures or religions or sexual orientations, people with other problems, ex-wives, police officers, ex-convicts, maybe sexual offenders, the list goes on and on. it could probably include disruptive people. Don't get me wrong. I sympathize with your dilemma. It doesn't seem that you want to be unkind or to prevent this individual from getting recovery; you're just trying to help the group as a whole, to maintain unity.

We had an individual, well known chronic slipper, showed up at our step study group and wanted to just share on something that was bothering him. We had already had this problem so we had voted at a group conscience that we would not deviate from the format but we assured him that after the meeting we would stick around have coffee whatever he needed. But no, not good enough I need to share now he said. So I gave him the location of an open discussion group nearby and suggested he go there. He went quietly enough and when he got there he told everyone how I had kicked him out of the meeting and what an arrogant sob I was and I'm never going back there and blah blah blah. What he didn't know was that I wrestled with that choice for weeks afterward because contrary to what a lot of people think I believe that the suffering alcoholic is the most important person in the room and that he may not always be a newcomer and unless he tells us we won't know. so by all means protect him or her but never in such a way that it jeopardizes your sobriety or someone else's.

In my experience the best way to maintain the unity of AA is to practice all of the traditions. that way AA will be here next year or five years from now. and you may very well be doing that. I don't know what goes on at your group or at your business meetings and I never had to sit next to this individual while I was hurting inside with something that could very well drive me back to drinking. So, what do I know? Obviously, if you've spoken to him and its still not working, you might have to bend the tradition without breaking it.

And I think its good that you're getting replies from both sides of it because sometimes the voice of the minority can make all the difference in the world. And try to remember that sometimes troublemakers make the best teachers, provided of course that you remain teachable. There are lots of know-it-alls in AA. I oughta know. I used to be one.

Have a nice day and I hope it all works out for you.

murrill · Veteran Member

Pablo,
I have been in similar situations, but none so chronic as the one you describe. It is, indeed, a sticky situation. My home group took the position that a person could be asked to leave if they were distracting us from our primary purpose. However, it was usually handled by having 2 or 3 group members quietly take the person outside. They would spend the rest of the meeting time with the person, sort of like a mini-meeting.

SteveP · MIP Old Timer

Hey all, sorry to raise and old thread, but this has just hit home in a big way and I'd appreciate being able to share on it.

At my home group yesterday, long story short -- we had an obviously drunk homeless man come in and fall asleep. The sec after the meeting gave him a Living Sober and newcomers pack and I gave him a coffee. It's a night meeting and it's really cold out. Another old timer agreed with us that that was the right thing to do. An old time female whom I really love objected strongly, saying that we don't want to encourage him, that the female members of the group will feel intimidated and won't want to come back, etc. She said that the guy is not there to get sober, etc. that that will threaten other folks' sobriety, etc.

I dunno. I can really see both sides. BUT, I'd like to think that if that was me, that someone might give me the coffee. etc. I also firmly believe that for us alcoholics, if we don't get sober, that's where we're headed, unless we die or go to jail first.

Steve

murrill · Veteran Member

SteveP,
Thanks for the story. So maybe the guy wasn't there to get sober: How many people are at their first AA meeting? I went to treatment (which sent me to AA) to save my behind on a DWI charge. Maybe he thought he would find people who understood. And perhaps one day he will become sick & tired of being sick & tired, and he will remember the kindness that was shown to him by some people in AA.

TomG · Newbie

All persons showing up at any AA meeting are put there by God. When I was new to AA I did not know that. I thought that they were put there to annoy me because I did not like their behavior. Over the years I became aware that those people were put there to teach me things about myself, like my lack of patience, tolarence, and love. God has yet to teach me how to like some of them, but as said in the Big Book, he does allow me to show patience and tolerance toward them.

To remove a disruptive person from an AA meeting is one thing. To ban any member of AA from a group is quite another thing. The third traditions does not say that the only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking and any other thing that we can think up. If any person is banned from any group of AA, who is the next person to be banned? will it be you or will it be me?

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Excellent post Mr. Tom, welcome to the board.

The Addiction Club · Senior Member

Agreed Tom, great post.

Tasha · Senior Member

Serenity prayer.

I like the idea someone had of taking this individual aside for a "mini - meeting". Maybe people could take turns just as they do reading etc.

Hope it works out for you and your group : ) Let us know how it turns out!
Tasha

Ginger99967 · Newbie

We have a member that has threatened bodily harm to other members and the police have been called twice with reports filed as a result. This member is drunk at the time of the incident and his sponsor with 39 years of sobriety sits by and literally says and does nothing! This last event has many members fearing for their safety. This member has anger issues and suffers from PTSD and sat in the back talking about spiting the throat of specific members if he ever sees them alone. So who comes first? The individual or the group?

Jnitram78 · Newbie

As far as the tradition is concerned, yes you can be expelled from a meeting. You have a right to be there, drunk even, but you do not have a right to disrupt. You cannot be expelled from AA as a whole. That's what that's saying. Our common welfare should come first, personal recovery depends upon AA unity. If AA dies, we die. As trusted servants it is our responsibility to help make sure continues. The 13th stepper? I'm sorry, but if that was their concern then they were there for sex not recovery. But as long as the issue was properly addressed and it continued, it would be a violation of the tradition not to. This goes for all such situations.

-- Edited by Jnitram78 on Saturday 26th of August 2023 11:10:51 PM