Went to my HGroup last night, which is a BB study, and we read "The Family Afterward". Check out pg.133, where it talks about the fact that we are NOT doctors, should by all means take advantage of sound medical and mental health help if neccesary, etc.
Well, I had mentioned a friend, E., awhile back, who had been having psychotic episodes. Like Paranoid Schizophrenia. Well, over the past month she has gotten SOOO much better. She is 90% back to her normal self, thanks to a great psychiatrist and a lot of prayer.
She is very impressionable, even with several years sober. She had been going to some meetings and had a sponsor in the past, where she was told she should not be taking psychiatric medication. That she should rely upon a spiritual experience through the Steps to heal her mind and body. That taking medication would "numb" the feelings she needed to feel in recovery and step work.
(These also happen to be the same people, a few around here, who have openly chastized newcomers for saying,"I'm Bill, and I'm an alcoholic and addict". There are some "old-timers" locally here (in Akron, the birthplace of AA), who are called "AA Nazi's", who totally distract the healing of this program by pounding THEIR interpretations of the traditions down people's throats.
Like my friend E., I once had an old-timer for a sponsor, who had been there for me through a horrible rape, and then when I was prescribed medication to keep me SANE, she said she did not want to work the steps with me until I was off medication, as I could not get a proper spiritual awakening "on drugs". (I am STILL on medication today, and sober). Thank God, I got rid of said sponsor, and Iwish my friend E. would have backed away from these people as well.
Some of you may recall that I was going to go to my grand-sponsor's house for a meeting on wheels one night, as she has lymphoma. Well, my own sponsor informed me that day that a certain "AA Nazi" was going to be there, and my grandsponsor asked ahead of time that no one mention the word "addict", lest this woman be upset. I told my sponsor, who is totally open-minded and non-judgmental, that I absolutely could not go there feeling like I had to mince words or be dishonest, or not share something I wanted to. That i would go visit my grandsponsor another time, alone.
Anyhoo, I know this is a porgram for Alcoholics. The prob is that so many of us are addicts now, addicted to all kinds of crap, including relationships, etc...... I am going to lead in a few weeks, and as my own "rule" to myself, I do mention that a consequence of my being an alcoholic was that I made crappy choices, including the choice to pick up and become addicted to, other drugs. I do not go on and on about drug use, I talk more about what it is like to live the life of an active alcoholic.
But....... this kind of unbending intolerance makes me sick. There have been times where at meetings when one of these folks I speak of have really embarrassed and hurt a newcomer, and I have made it a point after the meeting to confront an "old-timer" face to face. It has at times, been very ugly.
But my take is to Live and Let Live, and until they take the word addicted out of the BBook, or remove the story in the back about the doctor who was shooting up, or about Dr. Bob getting into pills for a bit, those people can kiss my ***.
Sorry, I know there is not supposed to be any controversy, but this is a recovery issue for me, and it really is one of the biggest resentments i have today.
Looking for feedback, not an argument, I promise. Just want to see if I am looking at this all wrong. Thanks.
Joni
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~Your Higher Power has not given you a longing to do that which you have no ability to do.
Share your feelings. When I began Recovery, I had been Crossed addicted to Prescrition Drugs, had "kicked" that habit about 6 months prior to getting Sober.
In the rooms of AA, they have little phamplets on Cross Addictions, they do not say to not come into AA, they simple state it is more difficult to stay sober, and I could relate so well to that. In hindsight, if I had not "kicked" the other habit, a standing presciption for Valium, which today I see as clearly alcohol in powder form.
With that said, what you wrote, or pointed out on page 133, in the Big Book, it speaks directly to those that are on, or will need to be on medications. And it states clearly that is outside the scope of what AA can offer.
Thank you for this Post, and so very happy to hear about your friend that is doing so well, I recall clearly your Post, when you ran into her and she was off her meds and doing "Holistic methods" and how very scared you were For Her, due to her Sponsors insistance.
I believe that this is why sharing our experience strength and hope is neccessary and more beneficial. It does not make it judgemental. If I have not experienced it, then I will go and help them find the solution in the Big Book(to help them draw their own conclusion). I was asked to take meds when I was in treatment and I did not want to because I was trying to get off of alcohol and drugs which I did use to numb the pain. I told the director of the treatment center that if the meetings, sponsor and the 12 steps don't work(alone), then I will but I refuse to take anything that I thought would interfere with my feelings. If I needed to feel then so be it. The 12 steps worked fine for me. In the Big Book on that same page it also says "God has wrought many miracles among us, we should never belittle a good doctor or psychiatrist"(133). So, when someone comes to me with isssues in this area, this is the page I tell them about. I am not in a position to tell anyone whether they should take meds or not. This is a "We" program, at the same time we are individuals. I have a little more to share with you. I have to meet with my sponsee at 7:00. I will check back in when I get back home.
Aloha JoniJoni...The solutions regarding medication in our program is well described in the first 164 pages of the Big Book. The value of doctors and counselors is also decribed with appreciation and gratitude. Working with those who were not sole or pure alcoholics but from drug addiction has been spoke to by Bill and Bob and I don't know the exact location of their concern however they were very concerned and gave in solution that we must n e v e r withhold our program of recovery from another person seeking freedom from addiction whatever the chemical. I don't need anything other than that to be directed toward another who is honest and willing to recover. To withold or deny giving away what I have been freely given here and in the program of both Al-Anon and AA would put the validity and value of AA soley upon my ego where it would and could not find a firm foundation.
"AA Nazies" LOL what an opportunity to check out my compassion, tolerance, patience and faith. Even my own prior sponsor had problems just like me regarding issues that seeped first thru the filter of his ego and pride. He knew and even at one time excused his justified acting out in the face of my tolerance of "all others seeking the miracle of spiritual recovery." I didn't school him on my beliefs and ideas and I remaind unshakable about how I was raised in the program of Al-Anon and AA. How small a distance we need to travel between contention and peace of mind and serenity yet it is an impossible journey burdened by the weight of our own self importance, pride and ego.
Here is a treasure I was given in early recovery by a person who appeared less physically endowed than I having been born without legs. She was also a she (I hadn't yet reached the lesson regarding a HP who is genderless at that point so I was disabled at that time). She said "that she was taught that she would not grow in recovery unless she became humble." I had not ever felt that kind of fear without alcohol before. To even imagin not putting as much distance twix me and the disease was terrifying to me.
If the oldtimer has returned to fear and a closed mind; if they have resorted back to a position of dominence they have placed themselves at the mercy of those who see no value in denial and silence and while I have never ever seen a benefit from open confrontation, my whole recovery was erected upon the face to face responsibility of those who came before me and who were giving to me freely those things that restored their lives and made them beyond normal discription. I've met many "protectors of the program". I know many still that act out, "this is a program of suggestion...my own. It can be done only as I suggest it. Often times these are the ones who speak the longest and least relaxed at meetings. Its the best that they can do and that is why God as I understand God puts others in the rooms of AA.
Anything we do that distracts from the attraction of sobriety hurts anothers chances of coming in, sitting all the way down, listening and learning the steps traditions and slogans and practicing them on a daily basis while finding and building the most important relationship of all God first...sponsor second. Get sober and then...help another addicted person to achieve the same. I don't quibble on chemicals when it comes to getting help or giving it. Just how I learned and feel responsible for carrying on.
Such a important topic...awesome (((((hugs)))))
-- Edited by Jerry F on Thursday 10th of September 2009 07:26:34 PM
Thank you all who have so far given your ES&H, and yes opinion, on this matter. I value each response without judgment. This is something that I am really struggling with right now. It is the next Great Learning Tool for me as an alcoholic seeking spiritual healing. And boy oh boy, it is so hard for me to "Live and Let Live" when people of "stature(?)" are giving folks such horrible advise, and pushing folks away left and right.
My God, is it hard for me to practice patience, love and tolerance to those whom, in MY feeble mind, "ought to know better" (yes, a twinge of self-righteousness there, can you see it loud and clear? I do and MUST work on it.)
At times, I have the unquenchable urge to say, "Oh, I'm sorry, didn't know that not only is your name Dr. Bob Smith, but you are a spiritual messiah too, eh?" ARGHH!! Better said here, I guess, than in confrontation.
That is why I did not go to meeting on wheels where unnamed AA Nazi was attending. I KNEW (and so did my sponsor) that I would, for whatever sick reason, make mention of my addiction to "side dishes", and get a mushroom cloud going in the room. And my grandsponsor certainly did not need for that to go on in her home. If the very best I can do is avoid these kinds of people right now, then that is the best thing for me to do, if it can be helped. I will learn to tolerate this at some point, but it is certainly something I need to work on.
I have gone back to revisit Step 11 recently..... I have really been needing to talk with God a little more, not just the status quo prayers of the morning and the thank you's, but some serious sunlight of the spirit stuff.... getting rid of the garbage.
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~Your Higher Power has not given you a longing to do that which you have no ability to do.
It is much more that I wanted to write because I have been through what you have been through. On several issues that you wrote about. Thanks a lot for bringing up the topic. It helps me to try to be aware of other people feelings a little more. Resentments is the "number one" offender(64...).
I know that some of the issues you mentioned have happened in my home group. But we brought it up at a group consience meeting and decided that we would mention that cross-sharing is not on during meetings. I love the meetings, but I have noticed that some people are often there just to get at other people, in the beginning this drove me crazy and it was not good for a newcomer but now I'm in a better space and I take what I want and leave the rest. One old guy sighs and looks at his watch if someone is sharing what he doesn't want to hear but he is actually very kind underneath all this though I detested him in the beginning. The no cross sharing rule is a good one and it puts a brake on this and keeps the unity together after all we are all sick trying to recover.
I can tell you IMO there is less of the Nazi stuff in Ak-Clev than where I am now in Atl GA.
The people who are against prescribed Meds take correctly a absolutly wrong, Im sure Bill W. would have happily taken prescribed Med's to rid himself of the horrible depression he suffered from.
IMO the vast majority of people in AA today have abused drugs in some degree and we all have emotional problems that we work on via the steps and in other ways, some fit under in the "character defect" dept.
I know first hand of the folks who spend too much of their effort being AA nazi police, and are not gentle towards others, their time I think would be better used in helping others.
We are ego-centric as the book explains and the major theme through-out the 12 traditions is to keep personal ego out of AA, keep contoversy and distractions out of groups, keep us focused on our primary purpose.
It's kind of silly IMO, almost all of us drank and did drugs and that was not really our problem, just our solution, the problem was "us" and we needed a new solution. The best meetings stick to the new solution (AA program) and the problem which is "us", not the drink or drug.
I have seen a lot of negative stuff come about regarding the Alcoholic vs Addict controversy. Personally It doesn't matter to me what people call themselves and technically they can call themselves whatever they want.
I have seen many instances also where people insisted on using the addict label for themselves and created controversy and distraction in doing so, and as a result it hurts the group and all those who are looking for soberiety.
Why do they insist on feeding the animals?? The need to be right or unique at the cost of distracting the group is selfish behavior IMO, even if those who object to the addict term are wrong also.
I'm not a fan of people using adjectives to describe themselves ie "real", "recovering", "recovered," "gratful", alcoholic. Not that any of these things are bad, but it's just another attempt at being unique and excercising the ego.
A big part of our growth is working on unselfishness and humility, in that spirtit I think we should just refer to ourselves as "alcoholics", if we attend a NA meeting address yourself as a "Addict".
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
Yes he did. The 12 by 12 was "written during a time of his depression". Powerful information. I learned this through reading "Pass It On" Bill Wison and the A.A message.
I don't know all the facts, but I remember reading somewhere that he did seek much help for his depression and experimented with different meds for help, but I don't think much was available at that time.
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
"The Family Afterward". Check out pg.133, where it talks about the fact that we are NOT doctors, should by all means take advantage of sound medical and mental health help if neccesary, etc.
She had been going to some meetings and had a sponsor in the past, where she was told she should not be taking psychiatric medication. That she should rely upon a spiritual experience through the Steps to heal her mind and body. That taking medication would "numb" the feelings she needed to feel in recovery and step work.
OK, it's biker bill, my sponsor told me that if I had a broken leg, go to the doctor and take the medication as prescribed. Works for every medical situation. A member is in the habit of pounding the table to newcomers to tell them that they don't need meds and should tell their doctor to stick 'em. I took this advice and cut off my anti depresants dead (they were prescribed) rahter than take the doctor's advice to wean off.
I went crazy, I was rude, argumantative, suicidal, agressive and gagging for a drink. I managed to ride it out but from personal experience, when it comes to prescription medication, I'll always take as prescribed and will ignore amatuer psychiartrists and amateur GPs.
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It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got. BB
People can & ought to share for themselves leaving the results & other people's recoveries in the care of God. I cannot tell another what is good for them. I have to share for me. Carl was professionally labelled with all kinds of illnesses throughout his drinking (except for alcoholism). It wasn't until he got sober through the help of a thorough & well-disiplined program that he discovered that. for him, his problem had been that he was a dry drunk all his life. That is his own self-diagnosis & experience.
He came off everything including prescribed drugs. I'm sure this was with supervision & he is grateful that today he doesn't have to rely on anything other than a complete abandonment to his Higher Power. But, besides all this.. He would not suppose for an instant that this would be the blanket solution for every other alcoholic. We are taught to mind our own business in A.A. & anyone thinking they know what's best for everybody else may need to revisit their Step 1 regarding others. Who am I to take anyone else's inventory? I try to stay on my own side of the street.
Ordinarily I save my opinions & stay out of controversy but felt I'd like to share my opinion of what I've learned in this program on this one. Thankyou for asking, Joni. Danielle x
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Progress not perfection.. & Practice makes Progress!
Wow, I feel extremely grateful to have the majority of my peers in AA concentrating on what is SUPPOSED to be the Crux of this porgram.... "minding one's own business (staying inside your own hula-hoop), and helping others", not dictation anothers' life or medical prognosis.
I think there are those (including my old sponsor, God love her anyways), who believe that some of us are looking for an "easier softer way" when seeking psychiatric help. For me, nothing could have been further from the turth. I fought the idea that I was chemically imbalanced much further than I even fought the idea that I was an alcoholic. I remember coming to another "bottom" in recovery, with about 2 years sober years ago, where AA itself would NOT "cure" my tendencies at that time to repeat nonsensical words over and over, nor the motor-twitches I had due to serious anxiety. And when the crap hit the fan after being assaulted and I could not sleep for a month without waking up screaming and turning on all the lights and looking for predators in the closet and even, God help me, the OVEN..... it was time to face the fact that yes, I indeed had an ADDITIONAL illness that required some very serious help. When I DID admit that I had another illness to cope with, I was devastated, thinking, "How in the HELL can I manage this TOO???? Firt I find out I am an alcoholic, and NOW I find that I have another DISEASE???" The revelation itself nearly pushed me over the edge and encouraged me to completely give up. It all seemed so exhausting.
Yet here I sit, years later, thousands of meetings later, pages and pages of Stepwork later, hundreds of couselling and psychiatric sessions later, billions of prayers later, a fully functional human being, sober, happy, working and contributing to society in wonderful ways. Thanks to God, AA, and the miracle of modern medicine and physicians who, whether they know it or not, are doing God's work every day.
Thank you all for the validation that we ALL be long here, regardless of what a few are failing to mind their own business about.
And may God bless them and give them all the peace and love there is to be had, despite it all.
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~Your Higher Power has not given you a longing to do that which you have no ability to do.
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, alcohol was the gateway drug. I had a regular weed habit and have abused pain-killers, cocaine, heroine, speed, LSD, mushrooms, misc. opiates and inhalants. I did whatever would get me off and whatever I could afford and had available to me. My favorites were weed, misc. opiates and cocaine.
Now that I've been in AA and working the program, I have absolutly NO jonez for anything other than alcohol. A wad of opium or a joint on my dashboard would have no value to me now, but smelling a shot of bourbon from a block away would give me the heeby-jeebiez.
When I say "and I'm alcoholic" I speak of the foundation of my house of addiction. No foundation; no house.
