At what point should a person say to him or herself "There's no hope for me, I'm one of the unfortunates who cannot be helped by this program. I was born this way."? A person can only try for so long, continuing to fail time and time again, before he or she has to admit "This is it. This is my life. I'll never change it. All I can do is manage it."
And is that the worst thing ever? To know your limitations and use the knwoledge to manage your life accordingly? If when you drink you get drunk then don't drink when you have work the next day, or at family or professional gatherings etc. If you were to limit yourself to imbibe only at certain times and places when it will be least problematic is that the worst thing in the world?
Well I want to comment on some words you used, you used the word "Manage" twice and "Limit yourself" once.
I think what you are over looking is the PROGRESSION OF the Disease of Alcoholism. and secondly I would say that for myself, I also was just Born that way. That Progression will for sure as the sun is coming up, take away your own ability to ever "Manage" or "limit yourself", ever.
I don't know your age, but guessing you are in your early to mid Thirties. And my question is, if that is how old you are, do you want to look back at your life as a person that lived your life, and saved your own life from a terminal Disease, or that that same life threatening Disease just got the best of you, first cause Liver Problems, that is also a guarantee. I know, I lived thought those stages.
If you are referring to that part of the "How it Works" where they mention that there are some that have "grave emotional and mental disorders" that do not get sober, it is followed with, "But they can and they DO RECOVER, if they have the ability to be Honest."
We talked in PM, about how, when I quit going to AA, that the Disease was going to take my life, for I had concluded that if I did not get the Program in 6 years or so, that I was also in that Hopeless catagory.
THAT IS THE DISEASE OF ALCOHOLISM DOING ALL YOUR THINKING!!!!!. You are allowing the Disease the voice it needs to keep you down and out, til the day your choices are completely gone.
The First Step, "Admitted we were Power over Alcohol, and our lives had become Unmanagable"
My take on your thinking this morning is that the second half of Step One, the Unmanagability, that part has complete control over your own thinking now.
So perhaps you will just wait for that Progression, and have to hit a very hard bottom where all that you love is gone, and those so called social situations are not longer available to us. (Black out drunks ususally get excluded).
I feel saddened that you are concluding or beginning to ponder that fact that you are a person that lives without hope.
It Just takes what it takes,
PS. was sitting and reading whole board and forgot to answer your question I would say that you know WHEN you are a complete "write off" after you have taken your last breath.
Hugs my friend, Toni
-- Edited by toni baloney on Sunday 23rd of August 2009 12:48:06 PM
When I was a newcomer I had a gentleman named Frank Spierce who was mid 60's at that time that told us every time he shared that he was in and out of the program for 17 years till he surrendered. So TM, I don't think that there is a time limit. It takes what it takes.
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Sunday 23rd of August 2009 03:36:24 PM
I've tried to manage this disease for 26 years, at first I thought I was controlling things, I would then lose control, only to regain it, actually I was in complete denial and it has progressed. My life is unmanageable with alcohol. It unmanageable without it but with sobriety I can turn that over and for me there is some peace in that. I hope you find your answers.
No one is ever a write off until the day they die and not even then. We all matter. You matter. Keep coming back and please don't leave just before the miracle happens.
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It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got. BB
Aloha TM...I'm of the Biker Bill attitude. You are asking the "before" the miracle question I wanted to quit continually however I hung around too many members who had what I wanted and in order to have that I wouldn't quit. The "after" the miracle response is "never quit!! never give up"..."The courage to change the things I can," is about not quitting doing the new work for the new consequences.
Check out your self attitude and if that voice is giving you a quit message than use our voices and attitudes. AA says that you require two things to get into and get a hold of sobriety...Honesty and Willingness. I had to break this into two separate simple parts. Was I honestly whipped and honestly wanting something, anything else than a drink? Next? Was I willing to do a n y t h i n g to get that something different and in my case that mean't not just not drinking but everything else too.
You'll might even have to change your nick to something that doesn't have anything to do with drinking and getting drunk. I was told I only had to change one thing... "everything".
So brother it doesn't sound like you've reached the "give up" line yet.
I have known many people who drink to excess but somehow manage to keep a job and sustain their habit. I cannot do that, for whatever reason. If I drink, I cannot hold a job, or even get a job for that matter. My experience has been if I have money it goes to booze first, cigarettes second, food third and debtors fourth. Can't exactly manage that can i? I understand your feelings, have them just about every day. As for your question, there isnt a point at which a person SHOULD write themselves off imo. I was thinking the other day, nothing is guaranteed except what results from not giving effort (coming from a chronic relapser no doubt). It was always more painful to manage my drinking than to just not drink. Nothing is worse than getting bombed for three days- Fri, Sat, Sun and then have to go to work on Monday with the jitters knowing I cant really tie one on until the weekend. Only drinking "a few" during the work week rarely worked anyways, but oh man, the insanity and deprivation I felt holding myself to just a six pack or whatever..mental torture, ouch.
Dont give up my friend
-- Edited by Dodsworth on Monday 24th of August 2009 12:06:44 AM
None of us are ever a write off -- we all have value and worth.
Sometimes it is hard to see and sometimes we don't want to see it because we would like to sit in the nice warm sh&t pile we have found for ourselves...it's comfortable but eventually the smell will overcome us and we have to move along.
Sounds like you have found yourself some comfy doo-doo and are asking us to give you permission to stay in it.
Nope, not happening. Sure you can sit in it if you want - no one is stopping you - your choice --- YOUR choice. Or you can come over to the clean/sober side and stop the stinking thinking and attempts at rationalization of "how can I get just this much sober" - we are here with a hand extended and just as much warmth and comfort - but we smell better. :)
I certainly try to put my puzzle back together multiple ways to allow "social occassions" or "Friday nights" or whatever the case might be --the puzzle never goes back together when I try to hold onto one piece --letting go and letting god.
If you are looking for ideals on managing or controling your alchololism, I can't see you getting good advice here.
All of us who are Real Alcoholics miserably failed control drinking.
I guess it is better to try to control than not control.
If you are a real alcoholic and you honestly think you will limit your drunks to planed times, than your thinking falls in line with your natural inablility to develope a manner of living that demands rigorous honesty.
I would suggest reading pages 30 to 32 of the B-Book.
Hope you don't give up.
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
I wrote this before heading out to an event where I knew damn well that I was going to drink. I really appreciate your wisdom, understanding and advice and I sincerely wish I had stayed home and read the replies instead of going out.
But I'm not dead yet, there's still some fight in me ;)
I used to drink on weekends and just get hammered then. I used to live to get hammered on the weekends. Then suddenly, I found myself drinking every other day. I still "managed" to go to work, never got fired, never wound up in an institution, never got arrested... Well, after 1 failed attempt at trying to quit for good with no AA, I relapsed into drinking every day and such reckless behavior that I hit that bottom which for me was no longer acceptable. No friends, a totally f--ked up relationship, and the straw which broke the camel's proverbial back, I totaled my car drunk. That would be the progression of the disease for me. It may have been a while longer before I got fired, wound up in prison, the mental hospital, or whatever else....but clearly that is where I was headed. Don't give up Tipsy. If I had decided to keep trying to "control" my drinking, it would have wound up with me just drinking alcohol at home all the time by myself to not risk the DUI and other insane bar behavior...and when I did get drunk at home, it was always stumbling pass out drunk and wake up on the floor half the time. Why risk progressing to that? It's not worth it and you are worth way more than having to go through that. You strike me as a person who is funny, lovable, a little quirky, but also a little stubborn and afraid of really really asking for help and letting people in too deeply. I am not trying to take your inventory so much as I would just love to hear the results of you going with what appear to be some awesome personality assets you have and trying to leave behind those things which keep causing you to want to check out, give up, and get drunk. I think you are probably an enjoyable person to be around most times regardless of your drinking, but to unlock your potential and to truly be the amazing person you could be and really are, sobriety is the answer. Keep trying Tips. I have seen some evidence of personal growth and positive change just from the efforts you have made in AA, despite the relapses. Also, self-doubt and self-pity is something you can no longer afford to nourish in your life. Once I realized those 2 things were my enemy just as much as alcohol, getting sober became a lot easier.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
