Ya, I know what you're thinking and you're probably right... some newbie with no standing at all to criticize his elders is about to get himself in way over his head.
But I tell you what. We alcoholics are VERY quick to spot hypocrisy, and it is entirely possible that many of us newbies have gotten quickly turned off when we see it at meetings.
Here's what happened for me: I went to a meeting that I don't usually go to. If it had been my one of my first AA meetings, there's a really good chance that I wouldn't have been back, possibly ever. Certainly not to that particular meeting (and unless I have no other option for a meeting, I definitely will be walking out the door as soon as I see this guy again). There were about 20 people there - I wouldn't have minded sharing, and I'm sure there were several others who would have liked to share also. But what happened? While the first person shared, some loudmouth with 43 years sobriety raised his hand to make sure that he would be next to share. I'm surprised he even let someone else talk first. Once he had the floor he took up nearly the whole rest of the meeting. He talked for about 45 minutes, very loudly and obnoxiously, about how old-timers like him didn't get enough respect and how he didn't give a damn about the people who had a problem with his behavior in meetings. Didn't say a damn thing that was at all useful to anyone, from what I could tell (believe me, I TRIED to get something out of his psychotic babbling.) Obviously I was not the only one who had been turned off with his attitude.
The guy didn't seem to have an ounce of humility, from what I could tell. It was all about him. And when I went to my home group the next day and said something about it to the secretary, he knew exactly who I was talking about and said that he had nearly gotten into a fight with the guy himself. This surprised me because my home group is in a different friggin' city, 20 miles away. Obviously his reputation has spread far and wide.
Now obviously this guy is a big exception to what the average old-timer is like. When I hear someone with a lot of sobriety speak, and I can tell he/she is not an egomaniac and is attempting to practice humility and avoid being overly puffed-up because of his/her sobriety time, by golly I listen and listen well. But there are some whom I start to turn off, and it's because they aren't practicing the main principle of AA - Humility. They think that their sobriety time entitles them to certain things and that they have all the right answers, are more important, and nobody should listen to anyone else. BULL.
Just my opinion, for what little it's worth (and I'm sure the ones with the most sobriety around here will be quick to tell me just how little it's worth.)
AA is not a program for well people FS. You will encounter those types. Your points are valid. There's just no real good reason to stay angry about it. You are sober today and that is all that matters. Hopefully, you have a good sponsor (sounds like you do) and that is awesome too. Take a step back. That guy was old, probably lonely...He may have lost a lot in his life, friends died, wife died...whatever. He may be flat out crazy. Who knows? Point is, feel sorry for him and be glad you have a good program of your own. You did get something positive out of the meeting which was that you learned a person can build up a lot of time, but not necessarily have what you want. That happens. The chair person should have interrupted him as nobody has a right to take over a meeting. So if that happens again, I wouldn't go back either. Anyhow, don't feel angry or insecure over your time...Your opinions are valid, just as you are. This is an oportunity for YOU to practice humility...feel sorry for that guy and his 43 years and the need to be a cranky old fart...pray for him and take action for you today that you don't wind up sober and miserable.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Been there, seen that, heard that kind of thing too. Also heard an oldtimer screaming at the top of his lungs about how if you also happen to have a drug problem, you should get the hell out and go to NA (I have BOTH problems, but AA arrests them both).
What I have discovered is that AA is full of examples. Examples of how to stay sober and live happy, joyous and free, and how to stay sober (or even dry) and be miserable and condescending. I prefer the former. if i want to be condescending and miserable, I can be jujst like that guy you were talking about. If I want to be happy, I can do what the happy people are doing.
I have actually come to feel a bit of sorrow for the ones who have to pound the pulpit and dominate and cry out for attention. The happiest people with long term sobriety I have seen are those who, their younger years behind them, are still pikcing up folks from the treatment centers, enjoying long talks in the summer with spouse of friends on the porch over a glass of lemonade, humbly sharing the miracle of their sober life in kindness with others.
But there are others too, who have studied the Traditions for many years and have gotten very worried about the program that has saved their lives. I cannot judge them, they have the right to be concerned, and I have not walked a mile in their shoes (yet). So I find that for my own sanity, I have to dismiss the tyrades as being "theirs" and not mine to own.
Like they say, in the meetings, take what you need and leave the rest. And I have to add for myself, that I will not attach emotions to the whole thing either. If I do that, I am taking it with me. Being able to be "ok" and detach has been one of the program's most amazing gifts (when I can can succeed in doing just that.... detaching).
Take care, God bless, and thanks for the topic!!
Joni
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~Your Higher Power has not given you a longing to do that which you have no ability to do.
Well just like the others have said, It just happens sometimes. Th Secretary is there as a trusted servant to run the meeting, and we have here what is called the Five Minute Limit, asking in the beginning of the meetng, by the Secretary, to limit our shares to five minutes, SO that OTHERS will have an OPPORTUNITY to speak.
Once in a while though there is one person, that will try to dominate the whole darn meeting with their tyrades. And at times, the Secretary will interrupt that person, and say in the most gentle way, we need to let others share today.
But as you said, he was sort of in a Phycotic rant of some sort.
And just like Pink said, we are not in those meetings because we are well, are we.
One thing that I have learned when I really dont care to listen, whether it be a tyrade or a person that has rehersed their share, and it coming out of their thinking minds, and not their hearts, I have learned for myself to detach, and say the Serenity Prayer, sometimes I have to say it many times.
But for You, and because you are new to the Program, this can be a big problem. My very first ever meeting that I attended, I did go early, and walked up to a group of woman, no one introduced themselves, and soon figured out this was a womans group that was really "into" this conversation about Hooking Up with some men in the rooms, well, it was my first meeting, and I was very sick and hung over, and really needed help, but I turned around and walked out before the meeting began, with the clear thinking that was sure not something I wanted to go back to.
I did not return to an AA meeting for over a year, and then somehow it was pretty good, and I returned.
There are those that are Sicker than Others, and sober or not, sometimes we see them doing what that man did, and the secretary letting it go on an on and on and on.
Just find some meetings that you can relate to with some people that you feel you would like to get to know, and when you find a meeting that you really really like, make it your "Home Group."
So sorry you had to be exposed to that stuff, with being new. And it sounds like you let it get to you. Thank goodness those cranky old menwith their rants as the exception, not the rule.
Glad to see you here venting this stuff, that is so very important too, for your own sobriety.
And that old adage of "Take what you want and leave the rest" well it does not sound like there was any of the stuff you wanted to take.
For me today, even a meeting that is not considered a good meeting by some, is still good for my sobriety. It sure beats the heck out of being in a drunken blackout.
Hugs to you, and here hopeing you find a great meeting for yourself.
Also heard an oldtimer screaming at the top of his lungs about how if you also happen to have a drug problem, you should get the hell out and go to NA (I have BOTH problems, but AA arrests them both).
I get grief regularly, from an NA member, about making a distinction between being clean and sober. According to her, alcohol is a drug and we are all just drug addicts (and I guess there is no need for AA in her opinion). So Joni, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
So sorry you had to be exposed to that stuff, with being new. And it sounds like you let it get to you. Thank goodness those cranky old menwith their rants as the exception, not the rule.
I really did let it get to me, and I don't know why because it doesn't matter that much, I don't usually go to meetings in that area and have MANY options instead of that particular meeting. Guess it's my obsessive compulsive personality once again. I also have to wonder whether this forum is gonna be something I should keep coming to - because although I've gotten some good out of it, I've also gotten some stuff that makes me want to just say screw it all. I pat myself on the back for doing something I wouldn't normally do, making some small bit of progress, and I get some compliments but also get more criticism, and I think, dangit no matter what I do there's always someone that it just isn't good enough for (usually someone with eons of sobriety). I know they mean well but it really just makes me discouraged and defensive.
-- Edited by FlyingSquirrel on Wednesday 17th of June 2009 04:24:25 PM
Just want to make a comment on your first comment:
"Ya, I know what you're thinking and you're probably right... some newbie with no standing at all to criticize his elders is about to get himself in way over his head."
Speaking for myself and many others, NO One would think like that, ever, and it is my opinion that in this Program, there are NO ELDERS.
This Board is not here to "criticize" anyone. We support and love the new folks that come to this MIP site. Offering ONLY our experience strength and Hope when it is asked for. Exactly in the SAME way you will be able to offer your own Experience, Strength and Hope to a new person, when you have 30 days, cannot remember, but you already have some time put together, right. Sorry, I cannot get out of this response to go look it up, But you get the idea.
Ok, just wanted to tell you that your interpertation of AA as a whole, and this MIP Board with that first comment.. just bothered me.
Feel like you are starting to Post and often, that is what the Board is for, for ALL of us.
I personally have never used those words, newbie and elders, we are all in this together, no matter the time here.
**** Ok, Went back to read your first Post, so you have some time already, like some months, not 30 days, so any new person would benefit from any thing you might have to say about getting in the Program. So your own Experience Strength and Hope would really matter to someone coming in with a few days. I always loved so much the Newcombers Meetings. have you tried some. so much good energy in those meetings, Ok, thats it for me today. Hope your day went well.
Hugs to you, Toni
-- Edited by toni baloney on Wednesday 17th of June 2009 07:32:54 PM
Dry drunks are a sad lot. It's easy to put the plug in the jug. True oldtimers, with good sobriety are golden, you can recognize them before they open their mouths most of the time!
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Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. ~Buddha
Like Toni said, Newcomers meetings FS...they are golden. People are really just rooting you on there. The format of the newcomer's meetings I go to is newcomers share first with people on white chips zero to 90, then red 90 to 6 months, then blue 6 months to 9 months, then silver 9 months to a year. After that, the meeting is open to anyone with over a year. I feel so blessed to have 3 of these meeting in the same clubhouse with kind and supportive oldtimers who have really never criticized me and only pointed out my growth or when I sounded f--ked up, they just told me it gets better and keep coming back (I didn't take offense at that).
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
That format sounds so fantastic, and yes the NEWCOMERS MEETINGS ARE TRULY DEDICATED TO ALL THE NEW PEOPLE. I loved the Newcomers meetings SO MUCH, that I went for over three years straight, and raised my hand every Friday night, as a Newcomer. Really not funny I suppose, but we have to laugh at ourselves at times, dont we?
Toni full of Baloney for tonight..lol
Think I might have to take a course in writing correctly, all my Posts and responses have been requiring my editing to fix them. haste makes waste, I guess.
-- Edited by toni baloney on Wednesday 17th of June 2009 08:53:26 PM
I love the format...coming in I was like "WOW! I can't wait to be one of those wise red chips with over 90 days!" I was amazed at anyone with over 100 days and it really broke this thing down for me...I hope AA everywhere really recognizes the achievement of 30, 60, 90, 6 months and 9 months because, while the chips mean a little less as I progress and realize this is about a sober way of life for the rest of my life (a day at a time of course), looking forward to the next chip kept me going through some rough spots. Also, I couldn't fathom 1 year let alone 10, 20, or 30 years of sobriety. I could sort of believe I might get 30 days, then 60...and so on and so forth...until hrm...what day is this? 259.. each day the number keeps growing as long as I don't drink...always a positive thought that is there for me when I need it. It's still a big deal, but humility has sunk in a little bit and I now recognize over half the room has years of sobriety and it's not all about me and my journey to 1 year...either way it has worked and that's all that matters for today.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
In my heart I do believe that everyone in AA, no exceptions, that those first 30,60, 90, and 6 months and that one year, are just about the Most important thing to this entire Program. That is where we BEGIN our Journeys, and they are I believe the hardest too. But that energy we are talking about is what does it, and just like you, I can recall like it was yesterday, I also could not fathom having that one year Birthday, I recall so clearly listening to a woman that I really liked, she was speaking at her 4th Birthday meeting, and I had just under a year, it was so over-whelming to me. Could not even imagine that for myself. Thank you God and for AA making it all about a one day at a time, for we can all with HIS help, and have that willingness, and that gift of desperation to never drink again.
Just look up at your clock, see the seconds moving, and the minutes. One of my favorites is "THE RECORD in this Program is 24 hours", so if you woke up first, you have more Sobriety than I do, I love it because it really comes close to hitting the nail on the head.
To this day I really cannot believe that I have this time in this Program, feels unreal at times. but it is that time thing that never stops, tick tock, tick tock, and one day you too will look back, with amazement.
But back to your thoughts on how people precieve those first 3 months, 6 months and 9 months, and on and on, no one ever forgets those days,dont think you will either, I know I wont forget those times, there for a while some people use to talk about how great the GREEN years were, all wanting that great ole Green Feeling back.
Thanks again for all the good stuff you always bring to this Board, hope you will stay right here with hundreds of one day at a time posts.
Toni, and sorry Glenn if we changed the Topic of your Post, well I suppose it is all interconnected, right?
-- Edited by toni baloney on Wednesday 17th of June 2009 10:42:46 PM
Ya, in the end everything is all connected. I know there's a newcomer meeting around here but it's at 6am! Good luck getting me up that early! But I'm mainly over this particular resentment, and I really have learned a lot from the nit-pickers anyway. Fortunately I have pretty thick skin and a willingness to always believe that I might be WRONG! lol Well maybe not thick skin, just thin skin that heals quickly as long as I put some "humility ointment" on it. Hey I just made that up, pretty cool huh?
-- Edited by FlyingSquirrel on Wednesday 17th of June 2009 11:31:12 PM
I always have a strong reaction to criticism myself. I typically turn it into feeling like crap about myself rather than anger though in the "Burning Resentment" post I wrote here...I turned it into anger and shot off at the mouth when that is a rare defect of mine (not resentment, but anger in that form). What is odd is that I did get a lot of responses saying to pretty much lose the sponsor and get a new one...and there are/were some valid reasons for me to do that...but I got more from the posts where I was made aware that MY response was the one that was wrong. From there I took action and made things better for that day. I stopped an ugly ass argument that was getting worse and recognized my own part. Most of the time people who have greater sobriety time do know better than I. I especially know this if the person criticizing me is someone I respected before they pointed something out I didn't like. In those few other cases, I "consider the source" and do pretty much what I said in my first response to this post...I just feel sorry for the other person and be grateful I'm not the one with a need to be all sour and find fault in others rather than ESH.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Thank you, FS, for this thread. I can't stop mentioning to people on the outside how wonderful everyone is here at MIP. I love all of it; encouraging, supportive, angry, scared, sick, all of the honesty and sharing is really flooring me!
This topic, along with some others, are helping around some impatience and judgment I feel in meetings. I'm personally terrified to be judged, I agonize about speaking in front of groups, and before communicating with Miss Toni, not really so full of Baloney, in PM's, was uncomfortable posting here. Currently I'm noticing that for me, this fear is the flipside of a willingness to be annoyed and judge.
Flying Squirrel, the situation you described would have absolutely sent me into a fit, made more horrible by trying to ignore my crawling skin while at the meeting. Similarly, I experienced a little of the dominator situation in my first meeting the 1st time around trying AA(partially why I didn't come back, and oh yeah also, was not ready to stop drinking at the time), and on occasion I notice that a dominant share happens now.
However, my perspective on this has shifted due to the posts here. Thanks everyone.
-- Edited by angelov8 on Friday 19th of June 2009 02:19:35 AM
It sounds like this guy might be "dry" rather than really "sober".
In most of the meetings I go, the chair states before the discussion that everyone keep their comments under 3 minutes and related to the topic.
There is nothing more sad than seeing someone in the golden years of life who has a bad attitude and outlook (in and out of AA), fortunatly most older people with long term soberiety are very grateful and giving with positive attitudes.
The 2 ideals that come to mind on this topic are:
Courage to chage the things we can (meeting format)
"Love and Tolerance is our code" (concept had to be exercised!)
__________________
Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
Wow, thanks so much for this topic, I have loved this whole thread. All this talk about Newcomers Meetings has reminded me about a WONDERFUL newcomers meeting in my area on Monday nights, that I just might have to go to this coming week. It is a great place to not only meet and share with newcomers, but to keep us ALL focused on the basics.
The format there is that on the 1st monday, the topic is Step 1. Second week, Step 2. Third week Step 3. Then the fourth Monday night's topic is Sponsorship. Over and over again, every month. At the end of this open discussion meeting, all who have over a year sober and are willing and able to sponsor at that time are asked to stand up.
Can't believe I have been missing out on this great meeting for so long!!! I will be there next Monday, and thank you for bringing this up!!!!
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~Your Higher Power has not given you a longing to do that which you have no ability to do.
Anytime I get upset about anything it's because there is a lesson that I haven't learned yet. Quality and quantity of sobriety are not directly prepositional.
Good luck getting me up that early! But I'm mainly over this particular resentment, and I really have learned a lot from the nit-pickers anyway. Fortunately I have pretty thick skin and a willingness to always believe that I might be WRONG! lol Well maybe not thick skin, just thin skin that heals quickly as long as I put some "humility ointment" on it. Hey I just made that up, pretty cool huh?
, in PM's, was uncomfortable posting here. Currently I'm noticing that for me, this fear is the flipside of a willingness to be annoyed and judge. 