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Today the topic of "shame" came up at a meeting. It's not the first time someone has chosen that particular topic, so I figure there must be something to it. It's always an interesting and enlightening meeting when people start talking about stuff like that, and I always seem to walk away a little better off than I was when I got there.


I always find it interesting the variety of subjects a random one word term like that will bring up. Some people are ashamed of what they did when drinking, some were and aren't anymore, some have bigger fish to fry than to hang onto those feelings too long.

I personally had to really think about it the first time someone asked me my feelings on shame. I was told once that it's not just a matter of semantics- that there's a difference between being shameful and feeling shame- kind of similar to the old adage that guilt is the worry about what you'll be caught at and shame is the worry about what you are (something like that anyhow.)

As a kid I ran with a tough crowd and we did a lot of bad things- sometimes drugs and alcohol were involved, sometimes things just went to sh!t- teenagers raising themselves, dealing with situations on our own, learning how to handle things through a twisted paradigm that includes both addiction and inexperience. It's been a rare day that I've ever had the luxury of being ashamed of my alcoholic actions as an adult- I've always felt I had enough irons in the fire with all the shame and guilt I had naturally, from my upbringing, and from the things we did in our teens and early twenties. I've practically made a lifetime of apologies and have tried to be a good person and never be caught on the wrong side ever since then. But getting banned from bars and getting in fistfights with willing opponents, running from the cops and having to lay low for a while until things cooled off- that kind of stuff? Shoot- I think back then it was all part and parcel for the course (of course at some meetings downtown I say something like that and pretty much every person in the room looks like they know a little about what I'm saying- some meetings out in the suburbs people seem to not get that so much- and believe me, I envy the people who don't get that so much. It takes a certain kind of experience to end up with skewed thinking like that. I used to think I'd take the red pill, but sometimes the blue pill makes a certain kind of sense.)

Me- I think in a lot of ways I've been a little shameful of what I am (or what I feel I am or am not) a long time- probably as long if not longer than my career as an alcoholic. That kind of thinking brings up the old chicken and the egg question: am I an alcoholic because I'm ashamed or am I ashamed because I'm an alcoholic. Either way, there's some baggage to deal with one way or another. But I personally have been blessed with the ability to compartmentalize stuff and process it over time- a gift that has probably kept me from going crazy with anxiety, depression, guilt and shame. It's not that I don't feel bad about some of my actions- just that when I have so many things to be concerned with- inside and outside of me- I need to choose my battles wisely. In the end, things are what they are, and there's no changing the past. Today is the first day of the rest of your life- the journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step. No time like today. First things first. One day at a time.

A lot of introspection, a lot of meditation practice and plenty of related reading has gotten me a long way towards being OK with who I am. And of course the program and a lot of the people in it- but for me these days that kind of goes without saying- I can't separate anything anymore- it's all one thing, each part connected to another- emotional well being, addiction, spirituality, my own feelings of self worth- none of those seem to be mutually exclusive in any way, and work on any one part seems to affect the others.

Aloha- Toby


hawaiianrayer.jpg


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Healthy shame - "I am human and I make mistakes"

Unhealthy shame- "I am a mistake, flawed through and through"

John Bradshaw's book "Healing the shame that binds you" is an awesome read. It's hard to wrap you mind around this topic because the feelings as so emeshed into our core and have been with us for so long, it actually takes a bit of work to flesh them out and eradicate the old ideas that drive the feelings. Very rewarding.

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Bradshaw is the man when it comes to toxic shame.  With guilt we have a way back.  We can make a mistake and correct it.

With shame there is no return.  You don't just make a mistake - you are a mistake.  Shame is a state of being.  We no longer did a bad thing.  We are a bad thing.

Bradshaw believed that the number one cause of addiction was toxic shame.  You deal with the shame you deal with the addiction.

Heck of an author and a heck of a speaker.  Got to see him in the mid 90s.  He helped me a lot with my early recovery...

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Hi Toby,
As always, very good share! It is always amazing how well you can put into words what others may think, but cannot.
Wanda

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Someone in my lineage kissed the blarney stone. ;)

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In grad school there was one of my professors who is about the leading expert on the topic of guilt and shame. Her name is June Tangney if any of you want to look it up. The books are very enligntening. She did a bunch of deceptions studies with undergrads telling them they scored low on an IQ test and then watched them interact with a peer group. It was fun hanging out in the shame lab...lol. Anyhow, I know this all relates back to the serenity prayer. Guilt is when you know you did something wrong and can make amends for it and change it. Shame is when you interpret you are a bad person, worthless, and cant change the bad things you do. Shame is useless and only sends us to dark places. It may be true that we did things we were/are ashamed of in the past, but we are in recovery now so there's nothing to be ashamed of from this point on, as long as I work my program. Have a great day guys (and gals).

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Very well said PC!

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Thank You Toby,

What a great thread, and what Dave wrote about in the Bradshaw books, for me was so true, Toxic Shame, and in my 4th and 5th Steps, we put it on Paper, and we share it with another Alcoholic, and that Toxic stuff is gone forever, that was my experience.

Also what Dean said, yes, I am human and make mistakes, but to bring them both together, and recall what a true Miracle of opening up, finally and ridding ourselves of those so called private things we were going to take to the grave with us. When they are gone for good, and we are lifted up and out of that old Toxic Shame, it is also sort of ared light themomoter to never ever repeat that kind of thinking that precipitated the events in the first place.

And so happy for you that you have a street smart group, my own meetings here tend to be of the other kind, and I drive a lot farther to get to the more Real meetings, well that is what I call the differnce. I grew up in a City, San Francisco, and I think that makes a difference. But it is all AA, and all GOOD.

Just wanted to say it is good to see you, from out here in San Diego, (smile)

Toodles, Toni



-- Edited by toni baloney on Monday 4th of May 2009 12:37:36 PM

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I have friends that go to one meeting in one area for the peace and good vibes, another meeting in another area to get back down on the street and "keep it real". I tend to shoot for being right in the middle, with varied results.

It's funny- every once in a while someone out in the "burbs" who by appearances is no different from the next guy will reveal a little more about themselves and I'm always impressed and intrigued that there's a "fox in the henhouse", so to speak*. I run into that in Hawaii a lot, and assume it's the same all over. It's always impressive to me that someone with some challenging origins overcomes and elevates themselves to wherever it is they feel like being. (but then- that could be said about anyone who has this disease and works the program, as that always impresses me too, and it is certainly a challenging origin to begin with.)


*(This being said by a guy who was married by an ex-Hells Angel turned Minister- I love a good dichotomy as much as the next guy. ;) )

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Aloha! Thank you for your refreshinging share & its stimulated replies, Toby. I'm fascinated by the all pervasive phenomenon of shame & its implications to humanity & addiction. Sometimes I wonder if that just isn't what all this is about & what the Steps go so far in ironing out. I can honestly say that one of the most profound differences within my life today as to how it was before is that I no longer feel the shame I was so creased up with in my life. I would literally cringe from head to toe at the thought of being different from others & considered odd or wierd or rejectionable. I couldn't stand it & at the same time I couldn't blame anyone for 'thinking' these ways about me I either guessed at or found evidence for. Feeling like I was just so simply Wrong in every way was a killer emotion & I hurt myself trying to prove or to be otherwise. 

Couple that with an excruciating tendency to self-pity anyway. I had a lethal concoction within me that could kill me. We can call it selfishness & self-centredness. This hurt inside me is what motivated the constant need to feel like I had to either attack or defend. I had beautiful qualities too, don't get me wrong. Those feelings of pain inside made me very empathic & eager to help others who I sensed felt the same way but I was still powerless to truly help anyone or myself. The difference that I have today where it was so impossible to be helped by human aid or will is that a Higher Power has been coming into my life, ironically through other people also, but that it is this grand, difficult to define power running through my life now that generally buoys me & lets me know that everything is or will be ok. 

I know in overall truth it may not. There are people dying, in disease, poverty, violence, loss & accidents all the time & I hate that. What can I do? I do want to do something useful & contribute positively to help continuously in my recovery as time goes on & I'm given more days but despite all of this I do not feel futile. I do not feel useless. I do not feel without hope. I do feel like I can make some difference no matter what a drop in the ocean it may seem. I no longer feel infinitely & inexplicably ashamed to my core just for being who I am & alive. It's one of the biggest gifts I have for my recovery & I'm so grateful for it. I hated to feel such shame. I felt shame for feeling ashamed. I remember my A.A. cry when, after 3mths sobriety & I felt I couldn't go on with it I somehow, again pulled through in another early recovery miracle, I went to a meeting & sobbed from beginning to end. Anyone might have thought I'd just lost my family or found out I had a terminal illness but really, all I was crying for was all the years I'd just spent of my life locked in shame, self-pity & pain. I was grieving for all the hurt I'd been through & could let go of. I didn't have to feel this sort of pain any more. I could let go. 

I still had quite a lot of work to do regarding my Step 4 & 5 but this was the beginning of the end of my feeling shame for its own sake. I didn't have to do it any more & everything I did Stepwise after that was going through the motions, doing as was suggested & getting the psychic change that comes with consistant effort at all of the Steps. I'm so glad I shook free of my innate propensity to this most sneaky & hurtful of emotions. I suppose it was tied in intrinsically with my fear & when I had my spiritual awakening, the unconditional love & faith I felt & feel replaced & ousted all that deeprooted & falsely real pain. I realised I could have a choice again. I don't know when I had that choice in the past but I do feel I may have had it at some point, maybe in my childhood innocence before I was bitten & embittered by experience. 

The promises show me I can look back & use all of my experiences to help someone else now & that is amazing. I couldn't do this on my own (though I'd wanted to in my hidden pride of "look, I can do it! There's no reason I have to feel shame as you don't have to reject me! I can do it! Don't reject me!") I'm now not ashamed to ask for help. I know it saves my life today & I'm worth it. I'm worth letting someone help me. How can't I be if I'm prepared to help others? How could I expect them to let me if I've not the humility to be helped? There's so many perfect circles in the Steps & Recovery. I'm so glad to be a part of it. Shame is like the core belief that I do not belong, that I am simply rubbish, not needed or useful, to be discarded, abandoned by earth, utter annihilation. I don't have to feel like this any more. I feel loved, loving & lovable despite my flaws, if I exercise my courage & know I can accept this! 

Having a loving Higher Power in my life is what brings all of this together for me. It is having access to an infinite power to supplement my finite self & as long as I know how & that I can plug into that whenever I need, & daily discipline helps, I've no cause to feel that overwhelming shame any more. It is a feeling of being reborn, fresh & new yet seasoned with deepening wisdoms & faith. Very much Faith. I know others will always help me even if I do lose my connection. To feel cradled within this worldwide fellowship, here at MIP & in my Liverpool meetings is a huge example of how I can feel & am a part of this planet too. It's such a springboard for me to this belief & faith. My loneliness has gone & for me that was tied in with my shame too. Loneliness itself was an alcoholism for me. I'm glad I don't feel like these ways any more & it is all thanks to A.A. & shares like yours, Toby. Thanks so much for being here. You've helped me today, Danielle x  


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Aloha!!

Don't remember shame much.  Do remember ANGER and RAGE.  Have made my
share of amends and apologies and still not with alot of shame.  Maybe I just
got passed up when the metaphors and experiences were passed out.

So lets have some of the membership step up and share on what it looks like,
sounds like, feels like and tastes like to them.

Maybe I've never needed to know and maybe I know and it was never a speed
bump on my "hell bent for launches" style of living.  I understand a person can
rationalize themselves out of anything maybe including feelings of shame.  I've
done Bradshaw both personally and professionally and as part of my recovery
journey.  Sometimes I relate and then sometimes....   Shame hardly ever at all.

Open minded time.

A hui ho!!  (((((puliki - hugs)))))

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For me shame is a big part of it.  Anger and Rage are not.  I am the type of person that people actually say "Wow, you never get angry."  This amazes some other alcoholics.  With me, I take that anger and rage and turn it towards myself.  I have been ashamed of being gay.  Not being able to have that wife, kids, and the white picket house I thought was what I was supposed to do in life.  I have been ashamed that I quit school right before finishing my Ph.D.  I have been ashamed that I had a mental breakdown at age 25 that brought me down so low and that I still have to take meds for.  All of these things make for deep self-loathing and it takes very little to trip off those thoughts.  When something does not go my way or I don't get treated the way I want, I immediately start telling myself I am pitiful, what the fuck is wrong with me?, why can't I do things right?, why do I always fuck up?, and I don't deserve anything to go right.  With that said, I drank to numb these feelings because I couldn't tolerate them and was too scared to challenge them because that meant I would have to stand up and take some responsibility over my life.  I have to acknowleged that my self-pity pot is the size of the superdome.  I'm still working on these issues a day at a time, but I figured I would share this because I hoped it might help others.  Intellectually, I learned that my way of thinking and my pattern of alcoholism is more typically female.  Whatever, I also know that can be a strength in and outside of AA.

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Hi All
Great thread and got quite a bit out of it....
Need to finish (start-lol) my amends!!!!
That no matter what shameful things I was or did...today is a new day....I dont do those things anymore and the greatest of all....No matter what I stopped doing..school, working on marriage, being there 100% for my kids...now I can whole heartedly finish these things and be great at them!!!!!!

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Hey Jerry,

I took a couple days to thing about how shame still works me. I've done a lot of work in that area and used to feel a lot like Mark shared.

These days it's shame that drives my perfectionism. Whatever I'm doing (work, hobby, building something for myself) I overdue it and have this uneasy feeling like someone's looking over my shoulder or someone's going to show up and criticize whatever I'm doing and that I'll be embarrassed by it or take to heart and be dissatisfied with my work because of what the person might say. So I pick apart everything and tend to only look at the minute flaws instead of the big picture. This is shame at work, and a direct result of my alcoholic father that, no matter what I did, played "what's wrong with this picture" with everything I did. He just couldn't bring himself to give approval for anything. I've told this story a lot and I'll tell it again.

When I was about 11 (the last year that my parents lived together before separating for the last time) my father was brow beating me about school and test scores etc... I bought home a B and he said "you should've gotten and A". Then I brought home and "A" and he said "that 93 score isn't an "A" from where he comes from". So I brought home a 98 and he said "you should've gotten a 100". So finally I brought home a test with a score of 100% and I had that warm and fuzzy feeling, walking 3' above the ground, fully knowing that my dad would have to give approval and maybe a hug and tell me that he loved me (which he never did). So I showed the test to him and he said "you should've gotten extra credit", and I said that there wasn't any extra credit available, and he said that "you should've negotiated for the extra credit before the test". My mother was nearby and didn't really say anything and walked off with my head down and feelings hurt one more time. I went to my room to think about and I said "F*ck that guy, from now on I'm not doing anything that he wants me to do and I'm doing whatever the f*ck that I want to do, including all the stuff he didn't want me to do. I left Catholic school at the end of that year and that really pissed him off. I told him that they have extra credit in public school lol.

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Jeesh, Dean.. Your Dad! lol What a crank.. I feel so sorry for him & his perfectionism.. How much shame must he feel to have had attitudes like that? Thank God for the compassion of this program for the sicknesses in others.. I'm absolutely marvelled with your efforts & test results. I could never have or even now do anything like that. I'm glad you're sober & that you have the life beyond your wildest you've always wanted & you deserve. I hope you pass on the loving you always wanted to yours too. I suppose that's all we can do sometimes 'Be the change we wish to see in the world'.. Not being good enough.. Good enough for what, eh? To be loved? We are lovable & we are loving. We can even love those who don't love us the way we'd hope, need or expect. This program & the example of my family in fellowship teachs me this. Thanks for all you share here, Dean. You are loved, approved of & appreciated here. Thank you for being you, Danielle x

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