I'm not trying to stir up controversy but I've had an on-going concern (for about 15 years) of closing meetings with "The Lord's Prayer".
I've become general chair of an 11th Step group in my area where it's becoming increasingly common for people to be a bit indiscreet in sharing their personal religious beliefs. I guess I believe in keeping it "in a general way" as far as these things go. A few times I almost felt I was in a "revival" meeting. In one instance, the resident saint and "old-timer" of the group, a woman with 40+ years sober, concluded her sharing by stating that her sobriety was all due to her lord and saviour Jesus Christ .. who we'll all come to know someday. Of course her words were greeted with much reverence. For me, I like to leave out all the "thee"'s and "thou"'s so to speak. I'll concede that I've got a bit of a chip on my shoulder with people "finding jesus" ...being raised a PK has left me a bit suspicious of ecclesiasticism, smugness and pomp.
But another part of my concern with this issue is that where I live there is a huge Indian population, mostly Sikh, Hindu and Muslim and also a very large SE Asian population (Buddhist ... which doesn't have any diety). Christians (and whites) are definitely in the minority here. Alcoholism does indeed exist among my neighbors. I've witnessed it firsthand. However, in all my years I have never seen any at meetings other than the handfull I had managed to bring. There may be other reasons for their absence but I know this is a major one. I've spoken with some afterwards and most are too polite to tell me this. Given the long history of colonialism and christian prosletizing in their home countries ... I believe it would be a huge stretch of the imagine for them to think that AA is unaligned with christianity given the fact that A. we meet in churches and B. hold hands and say the "Lord's Prayer". It's difficult enough to share our message of recovery from alcoholism with many other cultural differences. This is one hindrance we don't need.
When I brought this up to the group at our business meeting, naturally I was told that this wasn't really a christian prayer. One member even went so far as to state that he'd be happy with any prayer ... it's just that this one happened to be written by the son of god himself which made it extra special. Incredibly, not an eyebrow was raised at that remark.
I happened upon the following article in the AA Grapevine which pretty well voices my concerns.
Is AA Just For Christians? Volume 60 Issue 5 / October 2003
At the beginning of every meeting of my home group, we read, "AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes." This statement makes me feel good. As a person with strong spiritual, social, and political convictions, I wouldn't have lasted a month in the program if AA had supported a political movement, economic interest, or organized religion. As it is, I've enjoyed two years of sobriety, spiritual growth, and amazing personal development in AA. I am past retirement age, but have never had a happier two years in my life.
However, there's a fly in the ointment, for me and a few other AA members I know. It's the practice of saying the Lord's Prayer at the end of our meetings. Two people have told me that they left my home group because of this. To me, insisting on the use of a prayer taken from the New Testament of the Christian Bible (Matthew 6:9-13) is a contradiction of AA's commitment never to be "allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution." As a Christian Internet source states, "Through this prayer, Jesus invites us to approach God as Father. Indeed, the Lord's Prayer has been called a summary of the Christian gospel." I am not a Christian. My spirituality does not embrace a personal God in the image of a deity of either gender.
I often attend Big Book study meetings where we read AA's assurances to alcoholics that they're free to choose their own higher power: "When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God." We also read, "To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive."
When I voice my objection to members of my home group, I'm generally told that the Lord's Prayer is universal and applies to alcoholics of all creeds and religions, which is untrue. (The people who say this usually come from Christian backgrounds.) Some have implied that I'm being rebellious or controlling--in other words, behaving like an alcoholic. One woman suggested that I bring the matter up for a group conscience vote. I'm afraid to do this because I think I know what the outcome will be, and it will make me angry, and resentment is a feeling I can't afford.
So, at the close of each meeting, I murmur my own prayer in cadence with the Lord's Prayer, loud enough for my ears but not loud enough to disturb the group. While this helps, I still feel excluded from the group during the closing prayer. A little voice in me asks, "Why do they tell me I can have my own conception of God and then force theirs on me at the end of each meeting?" Moreover, I've often wondered why we have no Jews or Asians in our large morning meeting. Are there no Jewish or Asian alcoholics in Gainesville? Are they, too, turned off by our Christian orientation? Are we unwittingly discouraging people with non Christian beliefs from attending AA meetings?
Recently, I did an Internet search using the words "Lord's Prayer" and "AA meetings" to see whether other recovering alcoholics shared my concern. I found more than two hundred links. In an e-journal article in Sober Times, a recovering alcoholic wrote, "Prayer at meetings, specifically the Lord's Prayer, is a long-running hot topic that crops up on a regular basis at AA meetings around the world. To many AAs, the Twelve Steps may be, as the Big Book puts it, merely 'suggested as a program of recovery,' but the Lord's Prayer is mandatory. . . . Insulting people with a prayer they do not believe in, or making them feel apart from instead of part of, is not helpful." That's exactly how I feel when I stand in the closing circle of our group and hear the Lord's Prayer recited by everyone but me.
My Internet search also revealed that many Jews are troubled by AA's use of the Lord's Prayer. A website sponsored by Jewish Alcoholics, Chemically Dependent Persons, and Significant Others (JACS) contained an article by Rabbi Steven Morris describing his work with Jewish alcoholics. He says that he's often asked, "Rabbi, can I say the Lord's Prayer at the end of an AA meeting?" Rabbi Morris wrote, "The struggle for an answer has been a major focus of my rabbinical studies these last two years." Obviously, I have company in my concern.
In another Internet article, reprinted from the Journal of Reform Judaism, a now-deceased alcoholic rabbi described how he requested the Central Committee of American Rabbis to address this issue in the mid-1980s. "The response of the committee was that the profound Christian associations of this prayer--particularly because it was prescribed by the founder of that faith--makes its use unacceptable to Jews." A member of the committee advised, "As it is recited at the conclusion of the meeting, there is really no reason to participate. One can stand in silence, and I am sure that this would be respected and understood."
An alcoholic who covered the Civil Rights movement in the sixties as a reporter, recently conducted an informal Internet survey of AA members and groups around the world, asking them to answer the questions: "What prayers do you use at your meetings?" and "Why?" E-mail responses came from sober Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Shintoists, Native Americans, atheists, and pagans from North America, Europe, Australia, Asia, and Africa. The responses indicated that most groups in non Christian parts of the world, particularly India and Asian countries, use the Serenity Prayer to close their meetings. A recovering alcoholic in Bangalore, India, reported that the Serenity Prayer has been translated into eight Indian languages and is used in most Alcoholics Anonymous meetings attended by Hindus and Buddhists. Some Japanese language groups modify the Serenity Prayer to omit the word "God." Even in some primarily Christian countries like Australia and New Zealand, the Serenity Prayer is more common than the Lord's Prayer. Other closing recitations reported in the survey were the Promises and AA's Declaration of Responsibility. Native American groups often use a prayer to the Great Spirit.
If AAs are truly compassionate and accepting, why do they insist on closing meetings with a prayer to a God some of us don't believe in? If I'm encouraged to find a God of my own understanding, why am I asked to pray to theirs? Words are important. If we mean what we say at the beginning of our meetings--"AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution"--we should honor these words in the way we close our meetings.
Barb C. Gainesville, Florida
“Christmas is a time when people of all religions can come together to worship Jesus Christ.” Bart Simpson
All I can really do is share...what we do in our area ...my freind...
I do know that what the groups do..re The Lords Prayer...is a group concience decision...Anything that the groups do...is at the group level...
There are quite a few in this area that have dropped it...completely..and that has included the 24 hour book also...
Also...we do have some meetings where at the start of the meeting.... the chairman will address the meeting... and the quote is "This is a spiritual program. For the benifit of AA ..it would be appreciated..if anyone wishing to bring up religious comments and religious beleifs...please refrain from doin so. Thanku"
It seems to work...and go very smoothly...
Have a good night...
__________________
Life is short..Live it sober to the fullest...One day at a time...
Yeah. "as we understood Him"... That would irk me, too. I guess we tolerate the over-enthusiastic, too. There's always the soloution of finding another meeting if it gets too far out of wack. Some meetings have like a preamble asking not to share off topic, or "off AA", (Alcoholism.) You are right. I think. Soloution? -Follow your Heart? Loved your post; good points! -paul
At my first AA meeting I was shocked that they closed with the Lords prayer.
I didn't know it at the time and it brought up all kinds of negative feelings from my younger years and religious people.
I have wondered why we say it as well but it also doesn't bother me much anymore. I would rather close with the Serenity prayer or the 3rd or 7th step prayer that are actually in the Big Book...
Thanks for sharing. I will be interested to see what others opinions are!
I live in a rather large city, and so there are people here from all over the world. At the meetings I attend there are many people who are Jewish and some Buddhist. It comes up every once in a while that they are very uncomfortable with the Lord's Prayer. I also have that Grapevine article. I also come from a mixed family, some Catholics, some Protestants, some Greek Orthodox, some Jehovah's Witnesses, and some traditional Native American beliefs. It was in my family that I learned how to be 'spiritual' without being 'religious' in a sectarian attachment with its own phraseology. I can say 'God bless you' without getting into arguments about exactly who God is. I can say that I'm praying for you without getting into the exact words of my personal prayer. I agree with using the Serenity Prayer, and the others mentioned. the Lord's Prayer is definitely associated with Jesus, although this prayer is not addressed to Jesus.
On the other hand, to really do the AA program it is necessary to do Step 2, and have some kind of belief in God. It is the key to recovery. So for the people who wish to skip all the Steps having to do with God the program will not work. Some people come to believe in "Love", and that works, since God is Love. Some people come to believe in a kind of a cosmic energy that lovingly guides us, and that works. Some people want to use a doorknob or such for a higher power,,, and find that the doorknob doesn't do it. Some people use the AA group as their higher power,, and that works up to a point,,, but I find that people are limited and sooner or later do make mistakes and disappoint,, so I had to go beyond the AA group to God for my guidance and strength.
that's my perspective,
amanda
__________________
do your best and God does the rest, a step at a time
To me, I think this is really a non issue. And I don't concider myself a Christian by any standard.
What I think is a issue is when we rush to introduce someone who is possibly dying of alcoholism to the 12 Steps, to a sponsor, to a home group... and fail to rush to introduce them to God. One that can restore us to sanity, one who cares, one who we can entrust our will and our lives to... in order to get and remain sober.
"1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.
If the majority of AA's are content with the Lord's Prayer, then I need to be willing to put my personal needs in a different light so the "common farwell" of the whole is not jeapardized by my personal discontent, partialism, and fears.
2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
In the absince of God's will being the providing force in a group conscious, I am afraid we would end up with a the collective will of a group of sick, unhealthy, selfish, self centered alcoholics as our ultimate authority and not I'm willing to place my sobriety in their care, for as we all know... "there will come a time when no human power will be able to intervene".
10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.
This is not a public issue so should not be aired in the publics view, which simply encourages and entices the anti-AA foundation of sobriety another point of combat against the 12 Step program of recovery.
In the end I feel and think that we sometimes miss something we hear read at nearly every meeting.. globally...
does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes.
I don't endorse nor oppose the Lords Prayer... If its worked for 60 + years for the majority, why should I be the whistle blower and whine about it... because it doesn't meet everyone's personal spiritual needs. No one is required to say it, any more than they are required to do a 4th & 5th Step...
But saying the Lords Prayer, or working these steps never got me drunk..... so I think I'm willing to practice the code of "Love and tolerance" that the Big Book outlines for me.
I'm not a big religious person and it does not bother me to close with the lord's prayer,but it does bother me when Jesus is brought up in respect to recovery. I'm still struggling on "who my higher power is,or what",so when I get bible thumpers bringing up Jesus, I just try to ignor them. I think it's because AA came by way of Christians is the reason for the prayer and no harm is meant by it. It does give me a cosy feeling closing with the same prayer after each meeting and I think if it changed I'd feel like it was not AA. I mean if you think about the lord's prayer it does not have "Jesus" in it, just "our father" or a higher upper bigger than ourselves.
Pretty soon if people are going to pick apart what prayer is better or worse for AA,then we are going to be like the American Schools and not have prayer in them. That would be a very sad day for AA and many people who do follow some sort of God. I feel that the prayer is just tradition and nothing more. I understand too that religion is a sore spot with lots of people and we are going to argue over it no matter if we are in AA or not. Me personally I take what I want and leave the rest and use the pricipals in all my affairs meaning I try to leave religion out of any conversation in respect to AA.
This program is for all, Buddist, people of the Jewish Faith, Catholics, Christians of many Churchs, and the for all that might believe the Tall Tree in their back yard is Their Own Higher Power. It bothers me greatly when "Religions" are brought into play, in this, what I call an 'exclusive' Spiritual Program. My own interpretation of that means that we reframe from Speaking of any Personal Religious Beliefs. Period. Some have some, some don't have Religious affiliations, and we all have those old "triggers" of feeling less than, so when someone is Spouting off about the own Religious Beliefs, it is stiffeling and suffocating, and more than anything else, a Contradiction to the premise that we in A.A. "HAVE ALL RETIRED FROM THE DEBATING SOCIETY, WHICH MEANS WE DEBATE NOTHING."
Just a little footnote, sometimes when I am in a meeting where maybe two people have a cold, and the chances are good that they might want to hold my hand at the end, I make a mad dash for the ladies room, likes is urgent, just so I don't have to risk holding the hand of this sick person. And it doesn't bother me. I would rather reframe from the hand holding and miss the closing Prayer, that catch some bug. I can say my Prayer to close, in my drive home. That works for me.
Prayer is Prayer, and if I had that topic 'burning' in me, I think I would do what you are doing, saying your own Prayer, loud enough for you to hear, as you are doing. Hope you find a resolution, or are able to let it just go.
Toni
And I am in agreement with John, it can be seen as a non-issue, the subject matter has never bothered me either, I do not belong to any Christian organization, but I do respect your opinion, that's all I am saying here. If it is bothering you, then it is bothering you. The word acceptance comes to mind. I try to keep it simple for myself, God, as we understand God.
We do not need a Religion in AA, but we do need God in A.A. that is a very fundamental Truth
As someone pointed out earlier, it's a group conscience decision. If the group decides they want to close with the Lord's Prayer, that's the choice. Everyone is welcome to participate or not participate as they see fit. I've been in meetings where instead they close with the "we" version of the Serenity Prayer or the Responsibility Pledge. If a group conscience decision is reached according to the traditions and the Lord's Prayer remains, those who really cannot tolerate it are welcome to start their own group.
I have been in AA for a while now, and my uncle has been a member for nearly 40 years, and as far as he can recall, the Lord's Prayer has been a part of it all along. I tend to be fine with it, figuring if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And it's been serving me fine. Although the Lord's prayer started with the Christian religion, it is not necessarily a "Christian" prayer - Jesus is not mentioned (the cornerstone of Christianity), just "Our Father". Talks about doing the will of our higher power (step 11?), forgiving others and being forgiven (4 and 5 and 10?)
That last paragraph is only my opinion and experience. AA says it is indeed a group conscience decision.
I think though it may be a group conscience decision, excluding other people can be pronouncing someone's death sentence-
If I were a member of a religious minority in a Christian country, or a non-Christian in a formerly colonized country with a powerful elite Christian ruling minority, this prayer and its associations would probably make me very uncomfortable. It makes me uncomfortable already, because I was raised in a Christian faith whose emphasis was not on ritual prayer and ceremony- While I get over this and stick with meetings anyway, not everyone might, and newcomers are often looking for an excuse to bolt-
It is a fine thing to establish one's own religion in one's heart, not to be dependent on tradition and second-hand ideals. Life will seem to you, later, not a lesser, but a greater thing. D. H. Lawrence (1885 - 1930)
The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)
Say nothing of my religion. It is known to God and myself alone. It's evidence before the world is to be sought in my life: if it has been honest and dutiful to society the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one. Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826)
The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. The important thing is not to stop questioning. Albert Einstein
Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. Mahatma Gandhi
One of the repsonses since I last posted on this made me think of something.
AA is what it is. It is also not what it is not. A friend of mine works in a correctional facilty as a CASAC (basically an alcohol and substance abuse counselor). The facility does not allow the counselors to use any AA material because of references to "God as we understood him". (The whole "separation of church and state" thing). Another friend of mine works in the court system, and apparently there has been thought amongst "the powers that be" that they request that AA no longer use any prayers or refer to a God in any manner, so they could be more free to "refer" people to AA instead of rehabs and the like, being that it is "cost effective."
I understand the whole correctional facility thing. It can't be forced on anyone. However, for many, many years now, AA has worked for a great number of people. I think for the courts to even suggest that AA change to meet their needs is a bit presumptious. AA is what it is. It is not for everyone that needs it, only for those who want it. There are other recovery options for those who do not want AA.
I know that early in sobriety, I wanted to tweak AA, maybe to make it more palatable to me, maybe to give me something other to focus on rather than to focus on my recovery. But for numerous people in numerous areas, regardless of age, race, nationality or creed, AA - as it is - has been the answer to their drinking - and living - problems. I was told early on that if I didn't want AA, I was welcome to try something else. I was also told to "take what I need and leave the rest".
I didn't want to get on my knees and pray as it is quite often suggested to newcomers. But countless stories of experience, strength and hope indicated that those who really had what I wanted did exactly that. So I started to do that. The God of my understanding didn't have a name or belong to any particular sect or denomination. I just knew that I had to stop playing God in my life.
I found that I have the type of alcoholic personality that could make an issue out of just about anything as long as I could focus on that instead of my recovery. I had to stop fighting and just start taking the suggestions. Whether I believed them or not.
I'm sorry to those who feel uncomfortable at the praying of the Lord's prayer at the conclusion of a meeting. However, no one is required to do so. I know one person, everytime the circle is formed at the end of the meeting, the hokey pokey goes through his mind. But the connection with others is important to him, so he continues to join the circle, although not the prayer.
I guess my thought is, perhaps rather than asking AA to change for me, perhaps I need to do a little changing myself. It doesn't mean I have to believe in the same God as you do. But my behavior might need to change. Again, AA is what it is. And it works as it is. AA is also not what it is not - and it does not try to be what it is not.
