Hi everybody. Longtime lurker and all that good stuff. Just wondering if anyone has faced anything related or just has any plain old peanut gallery opinions.....
I've been with my sponsor for about a year and while we're pretty different in our sensibilities and day to day lives, our dynamic has more or less worked well. A couple months into it all, I had begun to hear rumblings that she paid her bills doing porn, but I chalked it up to gossip, and even if it was somehow true, I'm very sex positive, pro sex worker rights, pro legalization, etc etc.... and beyond all that: don't throw stones in glass houses, tend to your own garden. (That and there's a pretty consistent sex worker contingent at the meetings I go to, and I've always found it admirable that like all of us, they're just chipping away at change bit by bit instead of getting overwhelmed by the impossibility of changing EVERYTHING all at once.... and that's naively assuming they even want to change on the sex worker front..... but I digress).
So it's a year later and after a bunch of 2+2=4 comments and weird scheduling conflicts I've finally taken the blinders off and recognized that yes she's indeed in porn, even if she hasn't admitted to it outright. I let my curiosity get the better of me and google searched for actors/camgirls in my area and she was literally among the the top three to show up and is pretty darn popular internationally, and pretty darn hardcore. Once again, I'm sex positive, pro sex worker rights, try not to throw stones in glass houses, etc etc.... so I'm not thrilled to admit, I'm feeling conflicted.
We're literally doing step group in the same apartment that's on camera in her vids and I've been sitting on the same couch where everything under the sun been done. Instead of being present for the work I find myself distracted and going down the rabbit hole...... "how can I sit here listening to this person tell me (in supposedly good faith) about spiritual centeredness and keeping an honest moral inventory (eg. not compartmentalizing and hiding things away) when she's doing what she's doing. How can I take our conversation about trying to live honestly when we're surrounded by what I now know are an assortment of shoes/clothes/knickknacks/electronics that she's gotten by manipulating emotionally needy men into sending her gifts in hopes of currying some fake sense of intimacy?" I think I was less bothered by the harshness of the porn itself than I was by the blatant ugliness of the persona she has online..... one where she unabashedly zeroes in on people's neediness, chastises them for their cheapness, and takes them for all they're worth under the guise of friendship, favortism, etc etc..... it was all so ADDICTY and so much like "the old life" of grifting the gullible (even if, in this case, willingly gullible).
None of us are saints in the program, and I of all people have no right to stand on any sort of moral high ground. So my own hypocrisy is only pissing me off more. But I can't seem to let go of this imaginary idea that we're all "in the same boat/on the same team/working toward betterment and radical honesty and not allowing ourselves dicey little allowances that previously always led us back into trouble." Relating to that, she's a sponsor to several other girls in our little click, and I CHERISH our click, rely on it, and I wouldn't want to lose it because I high-mindedly decided I just couldn't continue with my current sponsor.
Having a hard time reconciling all this?!?!? Anyway.....any input would be welcome. Thanks XOXO
-- Edited by Chel_E on Monday 28th of May 2018 05:49:54 PM
I am probably the complete opposite of a free spirit hippy type and believe in hard nosed discipline and would get behind a dictator should one pop up in my lifetime where I live. With that said, I personally would find it difficult to listen to anything a trashy slut would have to say.
Being 'a guy', it's difficult for me to fully appreciate the predicament you find yourself in ... and it's not up to me to judge your sponsor's behavior or her integrity ... seems her 'moral' standards are very low ... when we seek to improve our 'conscious contact' with our higher power, I don't see where He/She could possibly condone such activity ... the big Big Book certainty does not teach such behavior as Godly ... (I know, ... we are not Saints)
We, as sponsors, should lead by example and teach others how to become totally honest, upright citizens ...
I believe, no, I know, that were it me, I'd have to find a new sponsor that I felt would be inspiring, and lift me up to the finer points of our AA program ... both morally and spiritually ...
I pray you find a solution soon ...
Love ya and God Bless, Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
You say so yourself that you're not present during step work at her house, and distracted thinking about what's going on with her personal life. I think you answered your own question as to what you should do.
Back in the day the old boys were debating whether or not to allow some alcoholic deviant into the group. I don't remember what the problem was exactly. The person was alcoholic, but also may have been a prostitute, a drug addict, a coloured person, an ex con, gay, or one of the many other groups that were different to the white middle class male that made up the fellowship.
A member was heard to ask "What would the master do?"
Out of it came the third tradition, The only requirment for membership is a desire to stop drinking (short form) in the long form being an alcoholic is the key factor. So if she is an alcoholic, she is entitled to the same benfits of anyone else in the fellowship including not being judged for outsde issues.
The 12th tradition also plays a part. It speaks to complete equality in AA. We all check our occupations at the door, and our religious and moral beliefs is so far as they may affect other members. We don't go bible bashing for example, we don't impose standards of behaviour on each other.
The big book is clear as well. "We don't wish to be the arbiters of anyones sex conduct" Its none of our business. Some would have a straight pepper diet I think it goes.
The only aspect that might weigh on any decision I would make on this matter is whether your sponsor is breaking the law. If she is, you should report her. But more often than not these days, this kind of work is regarded as a legitimate way to make a living. Who are we to judge.
What would your God have you do? Sponsorship is a two way street. The main beneficiary is often the sponsor, and sponsors often learn from those they sponsor. Should you walk away. Why did God put the two of you together in the first place?
How could we judge a woman for making an honest living, even if it is in a way would not do ourselves.
My sponsor was gay, at a time where being gay was a crime. I wouldnt' choose his life style, but he was the most amazing sponsor. One of the things he alwyas did was seperate his life style from his sponsorship work. Sounds like your sponsor keeps her work seperate too, and I would say that is the right thing for her to do.
How could we judge a woman for making an honest living
Sick. Tell me one thing honest about being a whore. I almost take your comment as an insult to people like me that give blood sweat and tears for a real honest living/occupation.
How could we judge a woman for making an honest living
Sick. Tell me one thing honest about being a whore. I almost take your comment as an insult to people like me that give blood sweat and tears for a real honest living/occupation.
Exactly what are we condoning here....
Did you ever go to a real face to face AA meeting Visionz? Where they welcoming, helpful, did they care about you and your problem? Did they question your background, make you go home and have a bath before they would let you into the meeting?
AA is a fellowship made up of all sorts of people who would not normally mix. That nice lady that made you a coffee, the man that shook your hand at the door, the quiet girl sitting next to you, the nice old man at the back. What do you really know about them? What I know is there are no saints or ladies in AA, and that includes me and you.. Everyone of us has done things that betray our own values. The nice lady was a madam, the wee girl a hooker, the old man accidentally killed his youngest son and the guy you shook hands with has just been taken away for a double murder.
If you are a grateful recovered member of alcoholics anonymous, you might show some respect for our traditions. Perhaps put principles before your judgmental personality, and learn a bit of humility. Remember that AA membership is open to all who suffer from alcholism, and that we have no opinion on outside issues, thus the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy. Or, you could write to GSO and ask them if it would be appropriate for AA to ban sex workers. I doubt that idea would get much milage.
We are not condoning anything, neither are we judging. Perhaps you would also be insulted by the late JC. Didn't he say "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". go get your bag of rocks and have at it.
What I've done vs. what I'm actively doing is oranges and apples.
The chick is actively selling her ass and it is known. Taking the 13th step to a whole nutha level. And yes I have been around awhile in rooms and am extremely grateful for it. I also know if you hang around in the barber shop long enough, you will get a haircut. A lot of us mimmick or adopt a sponsors behaviors (outside the rooms) because we are trying to wipe the slate clean in the beginning.
The person who posted this might be in a tight spot financially one day and sees her slut sponsor rolling in dough so .... let's be a tramp to pay the rent.
Bet that'll make mom proud.
-- Edited by Visionz on Saturday 2nd of June 2018 03:16:24 PM
I am not expressing opinion in my posts. Merely coming from the book and the traditions. Every alcoholic as a god given right to be in AA regardless of outside issues.
In my country, a few years ago, a woman primeminister oversaw the introduction of legislation to legalise prostitution. She herself was about as far from promiscuous as a person could get. Now it is a career choice. Same in some states of Australia, and in other parts of the world. I might not agree with that. I didn't vote for her. But no doubt some of those women are in AA, as they have very right to be.
When they take step 4, they are going to do that on the basis of their own values, which may be different to yours and mine. There also might be issues there which are the business of outside professionals. It depends on what brought them to their chosen profession, desperation, choice, environment, abuse. To themselves only must they be true. Our job is to carry a message that will get them sober, which is often a prerequisite for successfully dealing with other outside issues. If you take away the right to sponsor from someone who has taken the steps, you reduce their chances of staying sober dramatically. I don't feel I have the right to do that, regardless of my personal opinion.
Still, if you feel very strongly about it, you could bring it up at your next group conscience. Perhaps propose a rule that any active sex workers be banned from sponsoring anyone. I suppose you would have to define what is an active sex worker. Would that be someone who sells their body, someone who performs on their own in front of a camera? Would it be someone who appears naked in still photographs, and if so, at what point does it become ponrographic? What should be revealed, and what concealed. The part of the world I live in, the prevailing religion believes any part of a womans body, other than eyes, nose, mouth (sometimes not even that) and hands are the only parts. All that means you are probably going to have some kind of interview process, and you might have to appoint a committee for that.
If your idea doesn't find acceptance, you can always exercise your right of appeal in the concepts, which gives the minority a second chance to present their ideas, on the basis that the majority is not always right.
For myself I have found I have quite conservative values. I once stole a kiss (nothing more) which was the betrayal of a friend, and I suffered greatly through that. The steps helped me deal with it, and in fact really discover what my values were and how they worked in my life.
And my step work has stages, the first being learning the baisc principles with my sponsor. The second was deepening my experience and knowledge through working with others. That was where permanent recovery lay. Generally speaking, my experience is that alcoholics who sponsor stay sober, and those who don't, don't.
Anyway, I enjoyed the discussion and appreciate your views. Hopelfully those reading will get some benefit from our exchange.
There was a spiritual teacher one time that heard a commotion going on outside of town one day ... He went to investigate and found a group of judgmental people preparing to stone this woman to death for being a prostitute ... He said to those holding the stones 'Let He who is without sin cast the first stone' ... they all turned around and left ... He said to the woman, 'Go and sin no more' ...
So ... we know what this woman is doing is not right nor a good thing, but 'We are not saints' and should leave the judgment to our Higher power ... Karma's a bitch, but it does happen ... and maybe not in this lifetime ...
Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Back in the day the old boys were debating whether or not to allow some alcoholic deviant into the group. I don't remember what the problem was exactly. The person was alcoholic, but also may have been a prostitute, a drug addict, a coloured person, an ex con, gay, or one of the many other groups that were different to the white middle class male that made up the fellowship.
A member was heard to ask "What would the master do?"
Out of it came the third tradition, The only requirment for membership is a desire to stop drinking (short form) in the long form being an alcoholic is the key factor. So if she is an alcoholic, she is entitled to the same benfits of anyone else in the fellowship including not being judged for outsde issues.
The 12th tradition also plays a part. It speaks to complete equality in AA. We all check our occupations at the door, and our religious and moral beliefs is so far as they may affect other members. We don't go bible bashing for example, we don't impose standards of behaviour on each other.
The big book is clear as well. "We don't wish to be the arbiters of anyones sex conduct" Its none of our business. Some would have a straight pepper diet I think it goes.
The only aspect that might weigh on any decision I would make on this matter is whether your sponsor is breaking the law. If she is, you should report her. But more often than not these days, this kind of work is regarded as a legitimate way to make a living. Who are we to judge.
What would your God have you do? Sponsorship is a two way street. The main beneficiary is often the sponsor, and sponsors often learn from those they sponsor. Should you walk away. Why did God put the two of you together in the first place?
How could we judge a woman for making an honest living, even if it is in a way would not do ourselves. My sponsor was gay, at a time where being gay was a crime. I wouldnt' choose his life style, but he was the most amazing sponsor. One of the things he alwyas did was seperate his life style from his sponsorship work. Sounds like your sponsor keeps her work seperate too, and I would say that is the right thing for her to do.
Dead on, as usual Fyne Spirit.
My first and greatest sponsor was also gay. I would not have ever known it if he hadn't disclosed it to me while we were talking about sponsorship. I realized that it had nothing to do with our relationship. It never came up in our discussions over my first 3 years sober. Even his relationship advice was precisely perfect. Two people, doesn't matter which two, all have human feelings that are the same. As for the original poster's dilemma. It's too bad that Gossip ruined an otherwise good relationship. Even if the gossip was ignored (instead of pursued) it could have had a different outcome. All that said, I believe that you did the right thing by finding another sponsor that you were more comfortable, as Your sobriety is what's most important. Time to let it go, live and let live and all that.
