Alcoholism is a disease of relationships, but apparently this father and son had a good relationship.
But I take issue with non-alcoholics at closed meetings, having non alcoholic drug addicts hiding out in AA is bad enough. There is the issue of anonymity and the issue that despite the father's assurance that they would leave the meeting if anyone objected, not everyone will speak up, they may just leave and never come back. That's why 13th stepping is so reprehensible, it detrimentally distracts the newcomer from their sobriety with an unhealthy relationship to fulfill another's selfish needs.
Maybe the Swedish program is not the one we know. Duh!
Besides the invading non alcoholic drug addicted horde where an alcoholic can better identify with the drug culture than another alcoholic, or do I have it backwards that selfishly a drug addict can better identify with an alcoholic rather than another drug addict, funny, NA prefers to use the word "addiction" instead of drug or narcotics addict in its 1st step, but alcoholic is not a narcotic, just a "drug", alcoholics come into AA with much higher bottoms than they used to so they are no longer willing to go to any length to get it, they cut corners and self-interpret and work their own program like the Swede and accept the invading non alcoholic drug addicted horde whose own program can't decide who it is to serve, because a 12 step program is a 12 step program so lets all start going to Gambling or Overeater's Anonymous or maybe NA because they are powerless over their "addiction", any addiction! I seem to recall that certain drugs, but not alcohol, causes hullicinations. I guess AA's success is undermining it!
-- Edited by SoberInMI on Monday 3rd of July 2017 07:48:33 AM
Imagine having burned your entire life and everyone in it to the ground, you work up just enough nerve to walk into a meeting as a last ditch effort, and you are greeted by a bitter old timer pretty much telling you - "you aren't wanted here, find a different program".
Most alcoholics are in such deep denial about being an alcoholic that it has to be uncovered with the help of others. Thank the heavenly father I was not greeted by an asshole old timer telling me to go away when I walked into AA.
Imagine having burned your entire life and everyone in it to the ground, you work up just enough nerve to walk into a meeting as a last ditch effort, and you are greeted by a bitter old timer pretty much telling you - "you aren't wanted here, find a different program".
Most alcoholics are in such deep denial about being an alcoholic that it has to be uncovered with the help of others. Thank the heavenly father I was not greeted by an asshole old timer telling me to go away when I walked into AA.
if you don't believe you have an alcohol problem, per the 3rd Tradition, being asked to leave a closed meeting is appropriate, unless the AA group is following the NA 3rd Tradition because there are too many dishonest non alcoholic drug addicts.
You're not the only one who ever came in who was in denial which would be quite obvious to another alcoholic. It's the selfish entitlement attitude that is wrong and won't serve you or the program. Would you go to Gamblers or Overeaters Anonymous for your drug addiction? So why AA?
-- Edited by SoberInMI on Monday 3rd of July 2017 12:46:27 PM
Imagine having burned your entire life and everyone in it to the ground, you work up just enough nerve to walk into a meeting as a last ditch effort, and you are greeted by a bitter old timer pretty much telling you - "you aren't wanted here, find a different program".
Most alcoholics are in such deep denial about being an alcoholic that it has to be uncovered with the help of others. Thank the heavenly father I was not greeted by an asshole old timer telling me to go away when I walked into AA.
if you don't believe you have an alcohol problem, per the 3rd Tradition, being asked to leave a closed meeting is appropriate, unless the AA group is following the NA 3rd Tradition because there are too many dishonest non alcoholic drug addicts.
You're not the only one who ever came in who was in denial which would be quite obvious to another alcoholic. It's the selfish entitlement attitude that is wrong and won't serve you or the program. Would you go to Gamblers or Overeaters Anonymous for your drug addiction? So why AA?
-- Edited by SoberInMI on Monday 3rd of July 2017 12:46:27 PM
I think we should leave the inventory taking to someone who is more qualified.
To say someone is in denial simply because they disagree is beyond ridiculous.
As far as entitlements go, I think the only clear opinion, in this particular case, is the one you feel entitled to make.
Other opinions, however, are just an afterthought. How sad.
Imagine having burned your entire life and everyone in it to the ground, you work up just enough nerve to walk into a meeting as a last ditch effort, and you are greeted by a bitter old timer pretty much telling you - "you aren't wanted here, find a different program".
Most alcoholics are in such deep denial about being an alcoholic that it has to be uncovered with the help of others. Thank the heavenly father I was not greeted by an asshole old timer telling me to go away when I walked into AA.
if you don't believe you have an alcohol problem, per the 3rd Tradition, being asked to leave a closed meeting is appropriate, unless the AA group is following the NA 3rd Tradition because there are too many dishonest non alcoholic drug addicts.
You're not the only one who ever came in who was in denial which would be quite obvious to another alcoholic. It's the selfish entitlement attitude that is wrong and won't serve you or the program. Would you go to Gamblers or Overeaters Anonymous for your drug addiction? So why AA?
-- Edited by SoberInMI on Monday 3rd of July 2017 12:46:27 PM
I think we should leave the inventory taking to someone who is more qualified.
To say someone is in denial simply because they disagree is beyond ridiculous.
As far as entitlements go, I think the only clear opinion, in this particular case, is the one you feel entitled to make.
Other opinions, however, are just an afterthought. How sad.
Who is more qualified than a sober alcoholic to judge whether a newcomer is in denial? Taking someone's inventory is expressing out loud that opinion. (Since when is being in denial a shortcoming or a character defect?) But, I think this is the exception to the rule, that it would be appropriate to "suggest" to the newcomer that he/she may be in denial---planting a seed.
I don't think anybody even suggested that another was in denial just because there is a disagreement, this is a misinterpretation.
That is exactly what an entitlement is, somebody is owed something because they say so, not because they have earned, qualified, or otherwise deserve something. The word "entitlement" is often used as a derogatory term, nobody is "entitled" to AA membership and closed meeting attendance.
This is typical of today's AA member, they have to twist and distort things to fit their way of thinking and seeing things their way instead of applying the principles of the program. My selfish way got me drunk and AA's unselfish way got me sober.
We've lost sight of the fact that we aren't always going to like the truth, but we are committed to "life on life's terms", some more than others. Our anniversary tokens say "To Thine Own Self Be True", when applied here means that an AA member should be fully committed to the principles of the program because, as a member, they have personally adopted them.
There is a little heard principle that we all have a right to be wrong(, but not the right to hurt others with bad info and opinions).
-- Edited by SoberInMI on Monday 3rd of July 2017 07:01:36 PM
A sober alcoholic, as you so eloquently put it, sounds more like an oxymoron than a statement of authority. And for the sake of argument, let's consider the facts first before we unveil the burden of proof.
For example, do you know what it feels like to be misunderstood, marginalized or simply forgotten about? Believe me, it is not pretty. I've seen countless alcoholics leave the program entirely because one or a select group of individuals superimpose their version of AA on others. Believe me, it has become a sad statistic that some choose to ignore. And If the shoe was on the other foot, which could happen to any of us, I'd bet you be singing a completely different tune. So, I would tread lightly if it were me. Why? The doors of AA swing in both directions, that's why. And the so-called experts, as they like to say, could just as easily be the ones picking up the next 90-day coin and not just the casual observer. Trust me, I know.
The facts still remain, however: You cannot fully assess someone's condition without first assessing your own, which is the crux behind step 4. For me, it is a mistake of astronomical proportions. It's something none of us can rightfully afford. So the next time you go on a rant, check your ego at the door. It may be your only saving grace.
P.S. You might want to stay on topic because your train of thought is all over the place. It's just a suggestion, however.
-- Edited by Super-Stoked on Monday 3rd of July 2017 11:15:44 PM
A sober alcoholic, as you so eloquently put it, sounds more like an oxymoron than a statement of authority. And for the sake of argument, let's consider the facts first before we unveil the burden of proof.
For example, do you know what it feels like to be misunderstood, marginalized or simply forgotten about? Believe me, it is not pretty. I've seen countless alcoholics leave the program entirely because one or a select group of individuals superimpose their version of AA on others. Believe me, it has become a sad statistic that some choose to ignore. And If the shoe was on the other foot, which could happen to any of us, I'd bet you be singing a completely different tune. So, I would tread lightly if it were me. Why? The doors of AA swing in both directions, that's why. And the so-called experts, as they like to say, could just as easily be the ones picking up the next 90-day coin and not just the casual observer. Trust me, I know.
The facts still remain, however: You cannot fully assess someone's condition without first assessing your own, which is the crux behind step 4. For me, it is a mistake of astronomical proportions. It's something none of us can rightfully afford. So the next time you go on a rant, check your ego at the door. It may be your only saving grace.
P.S. You might want to stay on topic because your train of thought is all over the place. It's just a suggestion, however.
-- Edited by Super-Stoked on Monday 3rd of July 2017 11:15:44 PM
Mr. Knowitall.... Ironically, your first sentence says it all about you (but the rest ain't pretty either), keeping in mind that when you point a finger at another, you have at least three fingers pointing back at you or it is those things I dislike in others that I dislike in myself ("Whenever you're judgmental of others, you're, in fact, judging yourself."):
A sober alcoholic, as you so eloquently put it, sounds more like an oxymoron than a statement of authority. And for the sake of argument, let's consider the facts first before we unveil the burden of proof.
This one too:
So the next time you go on a rant, check your ego at the door.
After we dry out, humility is the name of the game and the AA program isn't a smorgasbord where you pick and chose what you will swallow, but those who do look and sound a little like you:
Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this SIMPLE program...
Selfishness - self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
(Thanks MikeF)
-- Edited by SoberInMI on Tuesday 4th of July 2017 09:15:27 AM
What has become abundantly clear, especially when you consider the amount of disinformation and incivility throughout our little discussion, is the amount of divisiveness that exists all around us, not just in AA or this forum, but throughout the entire world. The lack of sympathy we have for others or the world around us can only lead to more conflicts. And if we don't challenge this supposition, somehow, someway, the unintended consequences may diminish our ability to help others, now and in the future.
The words "selfishness or self-centeredness" seems a bit confusing to me and here's why. It tries to diminish our own personal struggles through a series of misguided interpretations and then write it off as some form of mental condition designed specifically for weak minded individuals like yours truly. Doesn't it sound more like a force-feeding of humble pie than an actual response? It does to me. And what about the struggles we experience every day? Do they have less to do with real life events and the hardships we all endure, and more about our own personal ego trip, or worse? Well, isn't that convenient? It's like the struggles we go through are not real, but imaginary. This is where the confusion begins.
Even if the phrase is used properly, it can profoundly change how we view ourselves and others. It can also affect both our physical and mental well-being. More importantly, it may cast a negative light on our own personal ambitions, whether they seem justified or not. So if that is the case, how can anyone, who is of sound mind and body, perceive what is real and what is just a bi-product of their own imagination? Good question.
Now, some might say 'you are being overly sensitive'. Well, they may be right. If I am, then apologies are forthcoming. But if I'm not, there must be a very good reason 'why', and here's my explanation. It took me years to realize I needed help and that it wasn't just in my head. It also took me many years to regain all my mental faculties as well. So, to me, this phrase implies that nothing that I feel, perceive or think is real, and everything is linked to my current mental state. How unfortunate. To make matters worse, I have to hear this bloody phrase every day at meetings. It can drive me batty.
So if I seem overly dramatic or simply crazy, again, I apologize. It's not my intentions, at all. If there is one thing I've learned, however, despite being brutally honest, it's this: We need to see people for who they are and not who we perceive them to be. And how negative connotations can affect us all. It's where I draw the line, literally.
-- Edited by Super-Stoked on Tuesday 4th of July 2017 10:18:26 AM
First, "Selfishness - self-centeredness!" That, we think, is the root of our troubles. is straight out of the Big Book, pg. 62, which is where you should be looking to understand the phrase.
(T)he alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so.
Second, AA is about challenging self (and improving self through being selfishly unselfish - see below), not anything else. While I think the Big Book should be updated to reflect the sum total of AA's 80 years of experience, strength and hope, the program itself is sound and should not be self-interpreted:
Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program...
This is the first suggestion that a newcomer encounters and the first that most ignore these days.
K.I.S.S. is Keep It Simple Stupid. Like many newcomers, you are still fighting which impedes your recovery.
Maybe this will help:
Paradoxes in AA: The apparent SELFISHNESS of being UNSELFISH. And others.
The comments I got earlier about getting to grips with seeming paradoxes in AA, (The apparent SELFISHNESS of being UNSELFISH in the AA tradition for instance) reminded me of a time when I thought there was only ONE answer to things. A RIGHT answer and a WRONG answer.
It took a while to see the existence of contradictions. Seemingly contradictory 'truths'. Not just in AA, but in life generally. I cant [sic] remember when it happened exactly, but there did come a point when I stopped looking for the ONE AND ONLY right answer. Now I see many (seemingly contradictory) 'right' answers to any ONE problem.
Part of my desire to find only ONE answer to things was fuelled [sic] by a deep lying insecurity that I would not find the 'right' answer. In truth this was a reasonable fear, as I HAD spent many years trying to find a solution, and failing. Simply to become more and more agonized in the process. So it is hardly surprising that there was a lot of anxiety about finding the 'right' answer!
As I became more secure in my recovery, I just stopped being threatened or offended by other world views. My 'house' wasn't build [sic] on sand anymore. [sic] It [sic] was built on rock. So it was safe to explore other interpretations. I no longer feared extinction if I got it 'wrong'.
I find rigidity both in myself and in the other people I come into contact with seems to be rooted mainly in FEAR. A DEFINITE view just doesn't seem rational to me any more, as I simply could not subscribe to the view THAT ALL OTHER INTERPRETATIONS ARE WORTHLESS. So instead I see a degree of truth in many different viewpoints.
It takes time and work to create a 'safe place' in ones [sic] own recovery, that allows us to consider new ideas without fear of extinction. But I much prefer being free to think in many different ways. Being secure enough in myself to be flexible I suppose.
Be careful here, the writer apparently just pounded out his/her thoughts and wasn't careful about the expression thereof. The writer is telling you that he/she thought that his/hers was the only "right" answer and admitted where that was coming from. I believe you can identify with this. I hope this helps.
-- Edited by SoberInMI on Tuesday 4th of July 2017 12:29:20 PM
