Type 1 and 2 alcoholism

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Type 1 and 2 alcoholism

RubyTues · MIP Old Timer

I fit about half the type 1 criteria and half the type 2 criteria.

Philipld · MIP Old Timer

Same boat as Ruby

davep12and12 · MIP Old Timer

My history would indicate about 25% type 1 and 75% type 2.

Tasha · Senior Member

Hmmm -when did this come out? A lot has changed since around 2006 and the discovery of the epigenetic structures in people and other animals.

If it's new(er) then, I would guess the author is in need of some 'continued education courses'. It seems that we are on the brink of some discoveries that Bill Wilson was 'onto' way back when... that we would have an answer for why we are addicted - and how far back the gene 'remembers' as in - how many generations. Simply - we are either 'turned on' or not to stuff, and how we are turned on is directly related to the behaviors of our parents/grandparents and beyond - but of course, there is a million variations - not just 2. One thing is for sure though... you either have the epigenetics for it, or you don't - and the still missing info is WHY do some of the offspring 'have it' and some don't. And that of course goes into evolution and all that, and when you look at the offspring of any animal, you'll see that having a 'mix' of the different sorts of 'kids' is best for survival in the wild - and I'm sure that same thing is what is affecting why I have 'it' and my siblings don't - and why my parents don't have to, or my grandparents - but maybe my great grand parents did - and the random selection for the genes for alcoholism just happened to land in my head. It doesn't really matter I guess why we have it - or how we got it. But it sure would be nice to be able to just go to the doctor and have them put a little scanner on your head and be like "okay yup - you have the epigentics for alcoholism, so don't drink or you'll die'. Just like you can go in and get tested for any other allergy, and they can be like "okay - yup - you are allergic to strawberries, so don't eat them or you'll die".

And that is what they are working to be able to do - and that is what I think Bill was able to forsee, but because we are not there yet, we use our program, have a solution that works until they can manually go in and 'turn those genes back off' - which is coming in the future. Our survival no longer depends on these sorts of things, and it's clearly insanely detrimental to the well being of all. It sure would be nice to be able to take my kids to the doctor for allergy testing, have everything including alcoholism come up - and then be able to have a doctor tell them and show them exactly what will happen as their brain is highjacked if they ingest alcohol, leave the doctors office knowing full well what they have and what to do about it (not ingest alcohol ever to activate that gene) instead of coming to near death before being able to see clearly about it.

The reward system in the brain could then evolve differently over generations and alcoholism could potentially be eliminated if I'm understanding it all right. Which I might not be (disclaimer) my brother is an addiction researcher - not me - I get all the info there from John Hopkins where he works.

Quit · Member

"Hmmm -when did this come out? A lot has changed since around 2006....." ................................"If it's new(er) then, I would guess the author is in need of some 'continued education courses'."

Best comments on this board....ever! Yet you guys still believe in "the allergy" thing........and "Phenomenon of Craving"....etc, from the Silkworth guy. Priceless. A lot has changed since the 1930's but it doesn't seem to matter....

Q

Mr_David · MIP Old Timer

I agree with Tasha. I tend to shy away from labels just as much as alcohol, mainly due to the stigma they cause. Labels tend to limit the facts while subverting the truth, and that's something I have a hard time ignoring. Besides, what does labeling achieve anyway, other than the usual stereotypes? Nothing, period. The bottom line for me: Alcoholism is more of an 'addiction' issue rather than a 'branding' issue, and the remedy is steeped in facts not fiction, which labeling tends to do. I hope others agree.

Tasha · Senior Member

Well - allergy as in - it is a real bodily difference and what else do you really call it? "A person epigentically predisposed to the disruption and 'take over' of the brain's normal functioning once and forever after coming into contact with alcohol (or other drugs, or eating, or sexing or whatever the grandparents/parents behavior dictates). It's easier to say allergy, cuz essentially it is, your body reacts 'wrong' to something. It's just not an allergy like being allergic to strawberries - although, it might be more similar than I even know. :)

Tasha · Senior Member

Or than anyone currently knows - or has published work on.

Tasha · Senior Member

I feel like addiction to Anything - would be similar to the autism spectrum which suggests - if you've met ONE autistic person - you've met ONE autistic person. Each human is different, and that is how we survive. It benefited us at one time - now it's not. Or maybe it is and we just can't step back far enough to see the big picture? Who knows? All I know for sure Today - is that I'm a person who can not safely ingest alcohol. Other drugs have never been addictive for me except coffee. And I can see the trail in my ancestors as to why. They drank beer and coffee. I am not 'turned on' to other stuff. I also have no interest in it. Just the stuff I'm predisposed to - which does affect my behavior and thinking once and forever more after I took that first drink of my dad's beer at 2 yrs old.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

The research is not new. I remember hearing about it in the 90's in grad school. I don't think it's trying to be cutting edge. I thought of it in reference to one of the threads on the Alanon board where someone was asking if alcoholism turned people into psychopaths and sociopaths or whether people drank because they had those mental problems and tendencies and drinking/drugging goes along with it. I don't think this research is ground breaking but only classifying that there is a self pitying self medicating fearful type of alcoholic that most of us fit under and there is an alcoholic/rageaholic type that is less common, but prevalent. I basically referred to this to help explain that angry ass drunk that we've all seen in and outside the rooms that is not the norm, but somehow seems a legit "type" of alcoholic. This type also seems more common in the qualifiers of Alanon for some reason. Probably because they are treatment resistant more and their families are more driven to Alanon because of the added abuse they endure. Dunno.

PS- "Quit" - Being an AA hater on an AA website is 20 times lamer than any of the things you object to. Go troll elsewhere.

davep12and12 · MIP Old Timer

Quit wrote:
"Hmmm -when did this come out? A lot has changed since around 2006....." ................................"If it's new(er) then, I would guess the author is in need of some 'continued education courses'."

Best comments on this board....ever! Yet you guys still believe in "the allergy" thing........and "Phenomenon of Craving"....etc, from the Silkworth guy. Priceless. A lot has changed since the 1930's but it doesn't seem to matter....

Q

If someone did not have any experience with the phenomenon of craving being triggered by ingesting alcohol, there would be no need for them to "quit". They would just drink like a normal person, enjoy a drink or two, and easily stop before overindulging because they would have no desire to drink more than that amount.

Quit · Member

RE Allergies...there's a big difference.

"In people with true alcohol allergies, even a small amount of alcohol can cause symptoms such as stomach cramps, difficulty breathing, and even collapse. A person with an aldehyde dehydrogenase deficiency will usually experience flushing and may also have symptoms such as nausea or rapid heartbeat. Reactions to various ingredients in alcoholic beverages will experience different symptoms, including the following:

A person allergic to sulphites may experience hives or anaphylaxis.
A person allergic to histamines may experience nasal swelling and congestion.
Alcohol high in sulphates may increase asthmatic symptoms in those with asthma.
Alcohol may increase the reaction to food allergies.

Other symptoms related to the ingredients found in alcoholic beverages may include:

headache
nasal congestion including runny or stuffy nose
abdominal pain
nausea
vomiting
heartburn
rapid heartbeat"

If you have a true allergy to alcohol, you DON'T continue to drink. Dr. Silkworth did the best he could to describe it with the knowledge of the time but it's not accurate.

Tasha · Senior Member

Excellent Dave

Pink - I get what you're going for here. Ya... if you go hang out in Alanon too long, you get a VERY skewed idea of what an alcoholic is really fast, and it's just like anything... people only get help when it's really really bad. So you get a sort of slanted view. It's just like doctors becoming hypochondriacs a lot - not all of the do, but if all you see are people getting sick, then it seems like the world is a pretty sick place. When I worked a daycare LONG long ago - I thought all kids were just dripping slimey gooey messes... but no... just kids at that daycare because there was like 12 kids to one 'teacher' and they couldn't keep up with all the germs and sickness. But in reality - I found out - kids are not all that slimy lol.

And of course, this works well in AA to a degree I suppose - because you see tons of people coming in who tried to go back out and drink and then they come back to report 'the beating' and it's a GOOD thing that we don't see the ones who leave aa and do just fine or find other solutions - because a little fear of what can happen to us if we drink is a good thing. For me - I just know, I don't need to see people beaten down - I understand that I am 'turned on' to alcoholism and I can't drink. In fact - seeing people suffer needlessly is a little depressing... or at least stirs a bit of survival guilt and codependency.

I dunno either.

I'm glad I ended up in AA and got to work the steps and find the spiritual solution that offers. I suppose if I were just told I had alcoholism and never tried alcohol and got desperate - I would have never gotten to have what I have now in a HP. SO - maybe taking an even farther step back, and zooming out even farther to look at the whole picture would suggest HP does have us exactly how He needs us - and does know best ;)

xoxoxox Luv you guys.. Even you Quit.

Tasha · Senior Member

Quit - I must have a true allergy then. Because I had the runny nose - the rapid heartbeat, the flushing, the nausea and if I started thinking about drinking - I had to run to the bathroom cuz I would get 'the runs' (to be as lady like as possible) my body started reacting before I ever ingested - just THOUGHT of - but of course, after initial ingestion and well into full on and completely entangled epigenetic deformations had taken firm hold.

Tasha · Senior Member

I also started sneezing like a zillion times in a row after I drank 2 beers. Then it went away ;)

I'm sure it's all going to become more and more clear in time. I will welcome new info with an open heart and open mind. However - we do have to do what we can with what we have Today IMO.

betterthanyesterday52 · MIP Old Timer

Interesting post, pinkchip. I'll save analyzation of it to the other folks, because I cannot even spell analzation. (But, I am kinda anal about things because I can't let go of crap, so if I fit under one of those by being that, ok.)

Tasha · Senior Member

There is a difference between over analyzing and analyzing. The first would cause stress, obsession, unpleasant and inconvenient times. The second, is what brings us alive - allows us to feel deeply - consider things from different angles, think outside the box (or in if we prefer), and build connection with our human family. It's also what allows us patience, the ability to be less impulsive and take a step back before acting. It harbors the difference between being an Actor in the world vs. a reactor to everything going around us. And most importantly I feel - it's the freedom offered in this program. A new freedom from self bondage - our freedom that was once held captive by alcoholism or other addiction. And finally now, we have been offered the ability to think clearly, analyze our world in a healthy and enjoyable way, and breath deeply and peacefully.

-- Edited by Tasha on Friday 30th of May 2014 05:43:46 PM

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

I like this definition...

An allergy is a persons abnormal response to something that is usually harmless.

I don't know about you Quit...But if I'm breaking stuff and falling out of my chair and the only reaction I have is I want to drink more....That's pretty abnormal.

As far as the two categories go PC....Not real sure about that. I do know...That in this either or description....I fit them both.

If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic.

BB pg 44

I didn't need it explained to me any clearer than that.

-- Edited by Stepchild on Friday 30th of May 2014 06:04:25 PM

Quit · Member

"I don't know about you Quit...But if I'm breaking stuff and falling out of my chair and the only reaction I have is I want to drink more....That's pretty abnormal....."

That's not abnormal Stepchild. That's am example of someone acting like selfish ignoramus. No allergy there. Take responsibility.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

What is your point of being here Quit? You here to tell me if I'm an alcoholic or not? Or if the spiritual solution I found in the steps works or not? Not real sure I get your agenda.

Quit · Member

We were talking about an allergy Stepchild. You switched it to "abnormal" and said it's "abnormal" to act like an a-hole when you're totally hammered, trying to make a lame parallel to an allergy and I told you the reality of that type of deployable behaviour you said you partake in, behaviour everyone seemed to realize but you, who ducks responsibility for it by claiming "I'm sick, I have an allergy". What the hell did you think was going to happen drinking like that? Oh, but it's not your fault because you are having an "allergic reaction". Oh please.....It started out as a different discussion but you decided to morph it into something it else.

Tasha · Senior Member

Well that's exactly the problem with having your brain hijacked epigenetically - you don't have control over what's going to happen once you start drinking - and you have no way to not take the first drink :(

Quit · Member

Tasha,

You might actually want to read up on the epigenetics because you make statements of authority in the incorrect context, leading people to believe 1 thing when the other is true. Epigenetics is the adaptive property of genes, not the hard coded part. Internal and external conditions impact on the body (stress, environment, etc) and the body adapts to them. You speak as if epigenetics is the reason why someone is permanently stuck in an alcohol influence, when in reality, epigenetics is the reason a person can overcome an alcoholic state, reform their state, and not be in that state afterwards, since the adaptive nature of epigenetics allows for this. It's the same as plasticity of the brain. The brain is adaptive and changes. Epigenetics and plasticity should be a reason for positive hope because it is why alcoholic problem aren't likely permanent.

-- Edited by Quit on Saturday 31st of May 2014 06:23:11 AM

Tasha · Senior Member

All the best to you Steve. I hope you find what you're looking for. Thanks for the discussion.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Wow, ... To me, I don't feel like it's that important to fig'r out if I'm 'type 1 or type 2' alcoholic ... I'm an alcoholic, PERIOD ... and I'm grateful to the 'Man upstairs' for the AA program and way of life so as to not have to live in the bottle the rest of my life ...

betterthanyesterday52 · MIP Old Timer

This post took a u-turn.... Why watch t.v.....?

I was married to an atheist and have been very close with an atheist for the last several years. For years I tried to convince both that there is a God. Since being in AA I realized somewhere along the line that to each his own, everyone has the right to believe in whatever Higher Power they want to, or even to not believe in a HP. That was time wasted trying to change someone else's mind.

Now, as much as I am tempted....I have to hold myself back from my need to set someone straight, like I have done many times......and try to give up trying to convince someone who continually comes to this board and bashes AA using different "flavors" to do so. My time will be better spent trying to help someone who is receptive to the program and share how it has worked for me. Life's short and I have to pick and choose my flavors.

BTY

(and I have given up indulging in one candybar which used to be my favorite, btw)

-- Edited by betterthanyesterday52 on Saturday 31st of May 2014 07:33:29 AM

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Troll banned. He can come back with another account if he wants to participate and not just bash AA and the people in it.

betterthanyesterday52 · MIP Old Timer

Thank you for doing service work, pinkchip.

BTY

Tasha · Senior Member

The way I understood it... by no means am I an authority... is if is the reason for alcoholism and the reason we can recover. Yes. I plan to continue listening as new research comes out. I enjoy it. Thanks all.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Thanks PC...I can understand if AA is not for you...But I have a hard time wrapping my head around getting on a site with people AA has already worked for...or to try and discourage people that it may work for in the future....There's something kind of sick and twisted about that. I just don't get it.