Let this serve as a warning to all of us. Let your guard down, tragedy will follow.

GTT...can you post some info to support that Heroin is indeed more dangerous than alcohol? I was interested in your statement and did some research and based some of my own conclusions for some of them......

I believe that alcohol is more dangerous than Heroin because...

The number of alcohol related deaths is greater than Heroin deaths.
When you withdraw from alcohol it can kill you, heroin withdrawal cannot kill you.
Alcohol is more socially accepted than Heroin. Although just because a drug is more socially acceptable than another, it doesn't make it necessarily more dangerous, however, I would think that there would be more users and more alcoholics than Heroin users, (but I may be wrong).
The effects of alcohol on the body and brain are more intense than Heroin.
The damage that alcohol has not only on the user, but families of the user is far greater, thus resulting in more divorces, alienation from family and friends, etc.
Although there have been people killed by Heroin users, I think the number of DUI deaths, murders, accidents which were caused as a result of alcohol would be far greater.
I think alcohol is involved in more crimes than Heroin. (Again, I may be wrong)

-- Edited by betterthanyesterday52 on Friday 7th of February 2014 08:11:12 AM

You make some very good points BTY. Yes, the impact of alcohol abuse is far more reaching however the context of the points you bring up can be somewhat like comparing an apple to an orange. Yes, both are drugs and can be addictive but both are fundamentally different. 

Aside from the availability (they don't sell herion in the corner store) or the over-whelming advertising engine that is legally allowed to encourage people to drink, the % of people who use heroin vs the people who consume alcohol negates most of your points. Let's imagine for a moment the same amount of people used heroin as do alcohol with the same frequency. What would our society look like? Most likely some apocolyptic zombie movie. 

Additionally, if you were to compare the addiction rate after first use between alcohol and heroin, the heroin would win hands-down. The fact is, severe alcoholism is an outlier condition vs the population that use it. The inverse is the case with heroin users. Virtually all become addicts. The vast majority of people can consume alcohol in a controlled manner. The same cannot be said for heroin use, unless of course there are large groups of people who regularly meet and consume heroin in a controlled manner as part of their social norm that I'm not aware of. If that's the case I stand corrected. 

In the case of Mr. Hoffman, unfortunately, it took very little heroin to kill himself. The one drink didn't kill him. The heroin did.

BTW saying "The effects of alcohol on the body and brain are more intense than Heroin." That simply isn't true. 

Perhaps a the initial point is that "Heroin is initially and immediately more self-destructive". Functionally, people can have a beer and still work where as that is not the case with heroin.

-- Edited by GoingToTry on Friday 7th of February 2014 10:17:05 AM

GTT, you commented..."Let's imagine for a moment the same amount of people used heroin as do alcohol with the same frequency. What would our society look like? Most likely some apocolyptic zombie movie"....

That very well could be true, "if" the same amount of people used heroin. My post is based on the number of people whose lives were/still are actually affected by alcohol verses Heroin.
I can appreciate the titles of articles I read which said that one drink killed this man. If he never had that first drink, then he wouldn't have had the second, third, etc., which then caused him to use Heroin again. I have never had just "one" drink. Because I am alcoholic, it is never one for me. The other day, I almost went out and got a bottle of wine. I didn't tell myself, "I'm going to get one beer". That first drink is the one which can kill me, because if I never drink one, it cannot lead to the many other that will follow. I think that is the point the media is trying to make. Of course, one drink in and off itself usually cannot kill. But for alcoholics....the huge majority of us just are not capable of drinking only one. And I think it is a good thing to make other alcoholics (or drug addicts) more aware of the fact that if they don't think that they can handle just one drink, which they cannot, then they have a fighting chance of surviving this disease and maybe this approach will end up saving lives. Anything that helps another alcoholic or addict live is ok by me.

My statement "The effects of alcohol on the body and brain are more intense than Heroin" was found on the internet and because I am not a medical professional, I really have no idea other than what I read. I think someone on this board who has possibly researched in depth both of these drugs and/or who has not suffered as much brain damage as I have as a result of alcohol will have to respond further to your post, as it is doing a Captain Marvel on me---and flying way over my head and probably my wording above was not the best. (And I don't say that to beat myself up or put myself down...it is a fact and my thinking is so much slower than it used to be and I blame that to my abuse of alcohol. I have never used Heroin.)

It's always great sharing with you, GTT.

-- Edited by betterthanyesterday52 on Friday 7th of February 2014 09:55:49 AM

I may be misinterpreting the original point, so forgive me if I have. For any alcoholic, or addict, to pick up the first drink more often than not, will open the floodgates, so to speak. At the moment of that first drink, or drug, the alcoholic or addict, has no control, nor can they predict where that 'first drink' will lead them. Many people who have relapsed say this-that once they pick up that first drink... It's as though they never stopped. There was an article in either The Atlantic or New York Times that described Hoffman as frequenting a neighborhood bar lately- he was described as always being polite and pleasant- having his drinks alone at a table by the window. He was described as usually having some reading material with him... But usually alone. This struck my heart with pain because that was ME. I always had a few bars I could be left alone at, and others for being 'social'- more often than not I preferred being alone in a room full of people. This was a man who, from many accounts, was sober for over 20 years. In the end we can all learn from this- alcoholic, or addict?? I've sat in enough meetings, and lost enough friends to both or either to not really draw a distinction any longer- they both kill. They both produce tragedies all over the world every day. In my mind, Hoffman was a great talent, a good man, and a cool guy who fell off track. RIP, he's one of us- a brother- whos life can teach us ALL something. I do believe it is the first drink that could lead any of us to the same place.

Ditto, great post Col ... ... ... It boils down to the insanity that we sometimes 'think' we can drink or use with impunity, 'this time it'll be different' ... that's when we allow our defective thinking to rule our actions ... there is really only one cure ... and that is a spiritual one like that found in the rooms of AA ... ... ...

These kinds of questions about 'which is more harmful alcohol or substance x' seem to imply that the problem is something in these substances, when the problem is the fact that this man had a condition called alcoholism.  That changes everything.

 

Alcoholics are not able to reliably control their use of alcohol, or of a lot of other mind-altering substances, once they begin ingesting those substances. The disease of alcoholism is awakened, and, left to run it's course, the disease makes those decisions about drinking and using more and more from that point forward, ultimately leading to the well-known end stages of the disease.

 

When someone has a pathological desire to run into the street, and has become unable to control this desire because he is lying to himself that 'this time he won't get hit by a car', the problem is not that one type of car is more deadly than another. The problem is in the mind of the person who is afflicted by this compulsion and denial.

 

For alcoholics like us, one is too many. A thousand is never enough.

Actually Davep12and12, it does matter what hits you on the street. You can survive a car, but not usually a truck or a bus. Yes, both are bad, but one is a lot worse and typically fatal.

Drug and alcohol addiction is a potential 'no win' situation. From everything I've read, PSH was attending AA and was still drinking, so clearly it wasn't working.

So if someone has a long history of drinking, excessive drinking, and all of the associated crazy behaviours that go along with alcoholism, and know's 1 drink is too many and 1000 isn't enough, so they choose not to drink anymore and be done with it....does that mean their an alcoholic "disaster in waiting" and if they have a drink it's a ticket to disaster?

GoingToTry wrote:

---

Actually Davep12and12, it does matter what hits you on the street. You can survive a car, but not usually a truck or a bus. Yes, both are bad, but one is a lot worse and typically fatal.

Drug and alcohol addiction is a potential 'no win' situation. From everything I've read, PSH was attending AA and was still drinking, so clearly it wasn't working.

So if someone has a long history of drinking, excessive drinking, and all of the associated crazy behaviours that go along with alcoholism, and know's 1 drink is too many and 1000 isn't enough, so they choose not to drink anymore and be done with it....does that mean their an alcoholic "disaster in waiting" and if they have a drink it's a ticket to disaster?

---

 I am not sure how much of the program this man was working. I don't think it is enough to just attend meetings from everything I have heard.

I do know that there are some drinkers who can quit drinking on their own without the help of AA. I have two family members who were drinkers for years and who have been sober for years and neither ever stepped foot in an AA meeting.

I cannot help but wonder if they were ever alcoholic. I know that every time I have stopped going to meetings (and before this last time I didn't have a sponsor, wasn't working the steps) I have started to drink and was right back where I started. AA is working for me. I cannot say I am in love with everything which is required of me to do, but I am willing to do whatever it takes to stay sober. And yes, I know from my past experiences that  if I have a drink it is a "ticket to disaster".

Of course there are lots of people in AA who came in, got sober, relapsed at some point, and were fortunate enough to get back to AA and get sober again.

But for everyone in AA who made it back from a relapse, there are a hell of a lot more who didn't make it back. They stay out there and die, or go on to the bitter end, their lives slowly being destroyed by alcoholism. You just don't often see them. But I have. The abject hopelessness of these people is absolutely terrifying to see. Especially if you knew what they were like before they relapsed.

Sometimes sober alcoholics will get the idea that 'hey, if I start drinking again, and it gets really bad, I'll know exactly what to do. I'll come back to AA". And that is the lie that alcoholism tells us. If it were possible for an alcoholic to reliably decide to get sober again once they started drinking, they wouldn't be an alcoholic. We need to always keep in mind that, once I start drinking again, I DON'T THINK THE SAME ANY MORE. My entire outlook on life CHANGES. I lose all hope, and there is no assurance at all that I'll be fortunate enough to find it again and get a window of opportunity that will allow me to get sober again.

Your comment is, again, assuming that people who are in the midst of alcoholic drinking will have some control over this and will be able to choose to get sober when they want to. That is simply not true. The reason I phrased my comments as if the disease of alcoholism had a mind of its own, that took over the thought process of the alcoholic in matters of drinking and using, is because that is exactly how it works. No, it is not actually sentient, but just like severe clinical depression or a severe eating disorder, the condition manifests itself in a way that often seems to mimic this, and in doing so it has the power to kill the person with this disorder. If you believe that after you relapse, you will have the power of choice to NOT allow alcoholism to kill you, and just get sober again when you want to, you are either not an alcoholic, or you are in denial about what alcoholism is and how it works. 

Are you familiar with the 3rd chapter of the AA Big Book, titled "more about alcoholism"?

GoingToTry wrote:

---

I have a choice not to drink or to drink.....  I've lived it and now I don't.

---

 Maybe I'm not understanding what you are trying to say. It sounds like you are saying that you think being sober for some time has given you the choice to drink or not drink, even if you start drinking again,  and that if you went back to drinking, you would have the ability to control this, and would be able to either drink in a controlled and enjoyable manner like other people who are not alcoholics, or you would be able to decide to stop again any time you wanted to.

And you think that when someone relapses and dies of alcoholism instead of getting sober again, it's because they chose to do so, and that it wasn't because alcoholism denied them the choice about drinking or not drinking.

Is that what you are trying to say?

 

No, not at all. When you were commenting about 'choosing', it looked to me as if you might have been trying to say that alcoholics who have relapsed can just 'choose' to stop again when they want to (or choose to just keep drinking), and that if they don't stop again and they die of alcoholism, this was because they 'chose' to do so. But of course, if the person can always just choose to stop when they want to, that would mean they weren't an alcoholic.

Yes, you're right, we do have a choice to drink or not - once we are sober and have fully accepting the first step.

But no, we cannot reliably know whether we will have the ability to choose to stop again once we are in a relapse and the insanity of alcoholism has returned.

Yes one celebratory drink may have lead to another and eventually to his demise. How active in recovery he was I don't know. 23 year's of soberity is a long time. I've relapsed twice and each time, I had stopped going to meetings and working the program on a daily basis. I believe we relapse way before picking up that celebratory drink.