The honeymoon is over, feeling discouraged with AA

shydryguy · Member

The honeymoon is over, feeling discouraged with AA

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

shydryguy wrote:
I find the whole implied notion that I should just start working on the program and god will come later offensive.

I have a few friends that came into AA that were athiests when they arrived that didn't find it offensive at all. I guess they just wanted it bad enough they were willing and openminded enough to try it. If you haven't read this chapter of the book yet...Do yourself a favor and at least read it. If you want to try something else...I wish you the best....AA won't be going anywhere if you ever really need it. Be sure and keep in touch SDG and let us know how you are doing.

Chapter 4...We Agnostics

http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_44.htm

Philipld · MIP Old Timer

Whatever works for you....Stick with it..and keep on truckin..!!

To each their own jouney

If I listened to all the pushers in AA?

Ide be drunk :)

betterthanyesterday52 · MIP Old Timer

Ha! I have heard someone tell others that if they didn't believe in God they were going to burn in hell so it didn't really matter if they stayed sober anyway. And there are quite a few long term sober folks who are atheists that I know of and they are doing quite well. They did get a sponsor and work the steps. Let all that pushy stuff go and believe in whatever keeps you sober. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks as long as you stay sober. This is life or death. This is what I was told to do if someone comes up to me with advice that may cause me to stop going to meetings and possibly cause me to want to drink.....say, "Thank you for sharing" ....and then walk away.

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Yay!!! I was more oppositional and definant about it when I first got into the program...and then I went back out...I never really was in because I blocked it all at first. When I went back out the progressive nature of our disease brought me to the point of suicide...again...and HP using HP's tools and desires led me back in thru a door HP knew would work. I sat and just listened with an open mind the next time and didn't try taking control of anything including speaking out because "I didn't know and didn't know that I didn't know" about this disease and my part in it. What I did come to understand was that "they had what I wanted" and being taught to "Keep it simple" I arrived at "If I want what they have, I have to duplicate (in my life) what they do". Simple program for complicated person. I stopped my brain from trying to manage me and used the thoughts, feelings and actions of the fellowship as a map until I came to understand. I never had a honeymoon period...the first 5 and then 9 years of my sobriety were scifi and frantic. I took life basically as I was shown...One day at a time...and if I survived a day I slept till the next one came up. When ever I tried to take over again because I thought I made it I screwed my life up again.

I'm special Ed...slow...ADD...alcoholic in the tap root...born and raised that way. Sobriety is not natural for me then...today it is and I need every alcoholic in sobriety around me for support and their higher powers. I have no question about God...yours, theirs, or God's. Mine is ancient and cultural...just for me. Work sobriety for you and don't stop for you. Keep coming back. smile

davep12and12 · MIP Old Timer

It looks like you are talking about two separate issues here - (1) Getting help from someone who can show you how they worked the steps, and (2) the whole higher power issue.

In my opinion, trying to stay sober on our own with no guidance from someone who has experience doing this, and who can show us how the AA program works, is really doing it the hard way and working in the dark. (and when I say "the AA program" this means the 12 steps. What happens in the meetings is just the fellowship, which is also important, but it's not the 'program of recovery').

But that doesn't mean you should choose a sponsor who has beliefs and experience that you won't be able to relate to, nor does it mean that you have to pretend to have beliefs that you simply don't have. In your comment, you said this: "I like to consider the spirit and legend of living the remainder of my adulthood without alcohol an higher power". That's ok, there is nothing anywhere in AA that says your concept of a power that can help you recover from the insanity of alcoholism has to be a religious-based concept of a supernatural deity. Some people rely on Buddhist principles. No supernatural deity there. Some people rely on basic spiritual principles that are readily observable in people's actions here in the world around us, and especially in places like AA. These would be things like Honesty, Openmindedness, Willingness, Patience, Empathy, and Selflessness. Those principles alone can be a power that is greater than alcoholic self will and they can help people recover from alcoholism. I would encourage you not to get sidetracked by irrelevant questions about whether there's some supernatural deity responsible for that stuff. We're trying to avoid dying of alcoholism, not win a theology debate.

Regardless of our specific beliefs about what that power is, if it's saner and healthier than alcoholic self will, we can stay sober if we rely on it to guide our actions instead of relying on our own alcoholic self-will. Lots of people who don't have a supernatural deity as their higher power get sober and stay sober. And yes, DO get a sponsor who can show you how they worked the steps, and get one who has what you want and who has experience you will be able to relate to.

-- Edited by davep12and12 on Monday 6th of January 2014 01:22:44 PM

-- Edited by davep12and12 on Monday 6th of January 2014 01:23:06 PM

-- Edited by davep12and12 on Monday 6th of January 2014 05:51:13 PM

2granddaughters · Senior Member

shydryguy wrote:

Right now, I'm just going to chalk it up to a couple of people being jerks, but I have about two weeks to decide between AA and SMART Recovery and I was about 80% leaning toward AA 3 days ago.

In AA I had to begin to do things that were absolutely unnatural and painful .. I perceived that discomfort as indicating that AA was somehow "wrong" for me

Please Google and read/re-read "HOW IT WORKS", it is well explained there in that simple 1 page text.

If you want what the good oldtimers have you will have to do what they did.

I live in Canada, South-western Ontario. In our town there are 6 meetings a week I can walk to and 30 within a 20 min drive. To get a SMART meeting I would have to plan a vacation.

I hope you follow the TRUTH in your recovery and don't give in to the disease or the "easier, softer way".

Recovery will hurt, offend and humiliate you. If it isn't ... it isn't working.

All the best

Bob

Philipld · MIP Old Timer

South Western Ontario hu? :) Im up in Chesley Ontario...

In Eskimo Country....

Two feet of snow in 3 days..and more comming....

Stay warm!!

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

It's the not drinking that maters. One thing to consider is that "we" have a tendency toward developing attitudes about just about anything. We're especially sensitive as newly sober individuals. Might want to "no big deal" it for awhile.

RubyTues · MIP Old Timer

Awesome post, Dave. And Dean, good advice. Try to be open minded, Shydryguy, and roll with the punches.

2granddaughters · Senior Member

Philipld wrote:
South Western Ontario hu? :) Im up in Chesley Ontario...
In Eskimo Country....
Two feet of snow in 3 days..and more comming....
Stay warm!!

Leamington.

Take care .. you are in the snow belt there !!

shydryguy · Member

Wow, thanks for the great responses and very motivating advice.

Collectively, you all sound like so many that have reached out to me over the last few weeks ... do your best early on, choose a sponsor wisely and get to working on yourself.

I understand that looking for shortcuts and taking everything upon myself is a recipe for certain if not instant failure, but it is encouraging to hear that the stuff at the very top can be what works for you. I too believe that the power of fellowship and a loving group of people with the exact same wishes for one another can be much higher than myself. I just don't understand why some people have to be pushy and rude to someone who is just trying to find their place? I would understand if I was walking this walk and talking this talk 4 months in, but considering I've hit 5 meetings each of my first 3 weeks (six weeks before the court will mandate it), you would think people would understand that I'm still broken?

[@stepchild] I know you are Dr. ToughLove on here and I always appreciate your direct and informative advice - I keep re-reading that and it does sink in a little more each time.

[@philip & BTY] Thanks...just trying to find my way and get in a good place so I can get to work.

[@jerry] If I understand you correctly, you are hitting on something that I am honestly trying to work toward ... my bottom wasn't as tragic as most, but it was low enough for me and I do find myself trying to think/problem-solve my way out of it. I may not be very good at this stuff yet, but I got no problem with working step1 - I am being fully honest with myself and those that matter most that my behavior and attitude are unacceptable and my life with booze is unmanageable.

[@dave] Great post...I hope being choosy and really trying to get a sponsor that I click with will pay off!

[@2GD] The old-timers are very inspirational - both in their quality of life and their knowledge of what works. Many of them hit me with the tough love approach, but with great care and conviction. SMART could work too, but seems more like self-help than I need? I want the best way for me ... not necessarily an easier way.

[@SPD and RubyT] I gotta remember to roll with the punches and not make a big deal out of nothing ... don't want to add to what is already an incredibly confusing time!

And of course, to all - much love and success to you as your journey to heal yourself and help other alcoholics rolls on.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

shydryguy wrote:
[@stepchild] I know you are Dr. ToughLove on here and I always appreciate your direct and informative advice - I keep re-reading that and it does sink in a little more each time.

You can call that what you want....I try and speak the truth....Sometimes that sucks...I know I didn't like hearing it. I also try to base that truth on the program that's laid out in the book. This isn't a game for me...And I'm not in AA to love people to death. I've seen enough death. I've probably read that chapter 100 times...And it still sinks in for me too. Maybe you're just looking for a Higher Power in the wrong place....Maybe you just need to look inside. I'm not a religious guy SDG....Spiritual...Very much so. I love this part.

Yet we had been seeing another kind of flight, a spiritual liberation from this world, people who rose above their problems. They said God made these things possible, and we only smiled. We had seen spiritual release, but liked to tell ourselves it wasn't true.

Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.

We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us.

We can only clear the ground a bit. If our testimony helps sweep away prejudice, enables you to think honestly, encourages you to search diligently within yourself, then, if you wish, you can join us on the Broad Highway. With this attitude you cannot fail. The consciousness of your belief is sure to come to you.

BB pg 55

Whatever you can do or however you want to do it....That will rid your life from alcohol for good....Is fine with me. I honestly wish you the best.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

shydryguy you're going to be alright brother. At times like you're experiencing I took my sponsor's advice and check off my basic gratitude list: Roof over my head, check Food to eat, check People that care about me, check Sober today, check.

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Monday 6th of January 2014 11:23:31 PM

John · Admin

I got into recovery a complete mess. Mentally, emotionally, spiritually, not to mention financially, socially, and all the other goodies people seemed to either have or be pursuing for themselves in the rooms and by working the steps.

What I found is that I was pretty limited, restricted by my own values and beliefs. But I went with a few things I heard in the rooms. G.O.D. = Good Orderly Direction was one of them. A sponsor and a Group Of Drunks could provide that to me if I was willing to simply be open minded and not fight everything they suggested.

I also was asked if I could simply believe that there was a positive and negative energy in the universe and being so almighty smart, I agreed. There is scientific proof of that. Then I was asked... which one do you want to be a part of? Which of the two do you want to flow into you and out of you to others? Well, positive energy of course! Are you willing to take a moment of each day and simply ask the universe to send that positive energy to you and pull it from you for the benefit of others? Well, I wasn't a person of prayer, but I could mutter a few words like that every day, I agreed.

And that is where my journey towards a power greater than myself, the god of my understanding began.

Step Three speaks in past tense. "God as we UNDERSTOOD him. ie, as in "back then, where we were at with it when we got here" and for some of them, while they did not define themselves as atheist their spiritual light had never been lite or was so dim, and being alcoholic resisted this concept as though they were being asked to believe that man could fly to the moon!

But with honesty, open-mindedness, and willingness and with time.. they started to see evidence that one day man just might fly to the moon and walk on it and they "Came to believe".

Start with where you are at. Your spiritual beliefs or even a lack thereof is not a requirement for membership in AA. Just try to develope YOUR own concept of God, whatever that word might mean to you that you find acceptable and can live comfortably with for the time being, and if you are stuck in the "I don't believe"... you are already expressing a faith in something or even the lack of it, that you have no more evidence of than most have that do believe. The use of a past tense phrase in Step Three, indicates we are going to evolve, learn and grow in our own spiritual light and understanding.

If you can accept the mere premise of this idea, then you are already well on your way to a sober life, full of color, excitement and joyfulness.

Sending much positive energy and vibes in your direction...

John

shydryguy · Member

StPeteDean wrote:
shydryguy you're going to be alright brother. At times like you're experiencing I took my sponsor's advice and check off my basic gratitude list: Roof over my head, check Food to eat, check People that care about me, check Sober today, check.

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Monday 6th of January 2014 11:23:31 PM

Thanks SPD ... my gratitude list is still intact, but that is not to say I have a lot of more chances with those people that care about me :)

Feeling better (best two meetings on my route are Wed & Thurs), so I am going to try to forget about my bad experiences last week and roll on. I am also going to ask around about a sponsor that might identify with my spiritual beliefs.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Good for you SDG....Sending you positive wishes that things work out.

shydryguy · Member

John wrote:
Start with where you are at. Your spiritual beliefs or even a lack thereof is not a requirement for membership in AA. Just try to develope YOUR own concept of God, whatever that word might mean to you that you find acceptable and can live comfortably with for the time being, and if you are stuck in the "I don't believe"... you are already expressing a faith in something or even the lack of it, that you have no more evidence of than most have that do believe. The use of a past tense phrase in Step Three, indicates we are going to evolve, learn and grow in our own spiritual light and understanding.

Hi John,

You know how hard these topics are to explain, but I'll try anyways. There is no expression of belief or lack of belief on my part outside of addressing the HP issue that is involved in working the steps. It is something that is simply absent from my life - I'm not one of those people that burns a thousand calories on the subject every time it comes up and I have an incredible amount of respect and admiration for the beautiful people in my life that have found god and used him to spread love to everyone they meet.

So, regardless of what I need to work the steps, I will never be "stuck" in the believe-vs-don't believe or waiting for an epiphany to deliver results from AA. I believe that contributing to a greater good and passing on a legacy of love attached to my name when I go is certainly a higher power than myself. I consider it no greater or lesser than the understanding of god that my AA brothers and sisters have for themselves.

Perhaps it was the topic of those meetings that brought this on (almost everybody stated that they couldn't do the program without god's help), but people were eerily cold toward me after my honest share about being an atheist and having a couple people be outwardly rude to me afterward made it worse. It just seems a little strange to me that people have to instill the notion that I just haven't found god "yet", where I would never imply to someone that they have just not found atheism "yet".

Well...I have felt the love and fellowship from day-1 in AA and online, so I am going to leave the negative experience behind and roll with that. There has to be someone out there that will sponsor an atheist through the steps, I just have to get off my ass and ask around?

Thank you John for sharing your experience with me and for sending the positive vibes my way - I don't care what your beliefs are, those vibes go a long way in my heart!

-- Edited by shydryguy on Wednesday 8th of January 2014 12:31:09 PM

davep12and12 · MIP Old Timer

Hi Shydryguy. There are plenty of people in AA whose experience with this issue is similar to yours. Forgive me if I'm recommending something that you are already familiar with, but if you haven't taken a good look at the appendix in the back of the Big Book about "spiritual experience" I encourage you to check it out. It points out that many people in AA don't have any kind of sudden 'white light' religious experience associated with their spiritual growth, and for them the process is more of the 'educational variety'. But these people still undergo changes in their personality sufficient to allow recovery from alcoholism, and they seem to do so by accessing a previously 'unsuspected inner resource'. And the stuff you wrote in your second paragraph above seems to fit that description. Looks like Step 2 to me. My experience was similar. There's nothing in the steps that says "we figured out how the Universe works and we figured out what God is". We just need to find something better, something saner and healthier, some inner voice other than our knee-jerk alcoholic self-will to base our decisions and our life upon, and rely on that to guide us and help us stay sober and take the remaining actions in the rest of the steps. Doesn't matter if we believe that it comes from a supernatural deity or not.

Regarding the reactions you were getting when you used the 'atheism' word, keep in mind that this word is just as loaded with preconceptions as certain religious words, and there's a good chance that some people may have jumped to their own conclusions about what you were trying to convey. For some people, that word implies that someone doesn't merely disbelieve in a deity, but that the person insists on continuing to rely on alcoholic self-will. And people can react strongly to this, because TO THEM, you are telling any newcomers in the room that they don't need to work the steps and they can just stay sober relying on the same messed up alcoholic thoughts and decisions that were ruining their lives before they got to AA. That's not what you meant, but as you already know there is plenty of opportunity for misunderstanding on this topic.

Of course it's not your job to assure that you never say anything in a meeting that bothers anyone, but if you're going to share about this at the group level and you want to sidestep any confusion or misunderstanding about this, at least for now, you could just tell people that your spiritual path and your beliefs may be different from theirs, and you could direct them to that appendix in the back of the Big Book. Bottom line is this whole issue is nothing that would prevent someone from recovering from alcoholism using the program of AA. You just need to find a sponsor whose own experience strength and hope can be of benefit to you.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

That's a great post Dave....I love it.

When I read this from SDG.....

I believe that contributing to a greater good and passing on a legacy of love attached to my name when I go is certainly a higher power than myself.

....I thought...That sure sounds like a second step to me. Good stuff.

shydryguy · Member

Great post dave ... thanks, for looking in on me, I appreciate the guidance.

On that note, I did find a (temp) sponsor while talking about your post with a guy after last night's meeting. Very positive person that had absolutely no problem offering to work with me - he just asked for honesty and an open mind.

I only used the word atheism to get in a brutally honest share in on the topic of the night, but I do understand that it might set off some alarms and remind them of people that spend so much time worrying about it that they psych themselves right out of AA and into drinking.

At the very least, I told my sponsor that I am not going to trip all over myself at the expense of his time. He gave me homework (suggestions anyways) and I am going to honor him by doing exactly as he suggested and just see where it leads me.

No shame in my game - I'll take any help coming my way!

[@stepchild] I don't know all the steps yet, but it is my hope that each one will start to make more sense as I get to them. The intimidation surrounding the ones with the word GOD in them is starting to wear off as I start to see what kind of rebuilding and reflection go into each one.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

All I can tell you about the steps is they are clearly laid out in the Big Book...It's a text book and should be studied like one. They have numbers in front of them for a reason....And should be taken thoroughly and in order. They make a lot of promises in that book that will happen for you if you follow those directions....These were the ones that really caught my attention....These are the step 10 promises. How do we get them? We work the first 9.

And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone - even alcohol. For by this time sanity will have returned. We will seldom be interested in liquor. If tempted, we recoil from it as from a hot flame. We react sanely and normally, and we will find that this has happened automatically. We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality - safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us. We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is our experience. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition.

BB pg 85

I fought this stuff most of my life...And it beat me good. And being open minded, honest and willing enough to go through this process...Removed the problem for me...As long as I follow a few simple rules....That's pretty amazing stuff. Best thing I've ever done.

shydryguy · Member

Yes, it took me some time, but I am starting to see that. It does satisfy your curiosity to read ahead and educate yourself about the program, but I find comfort in knowing that what is really important is working the step that you are currently on.

I kinda lucked out, the guy who volunteered to sponsor me is very easy to work with and I genuinely enjoy his company.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

That's awesome you found someone like that. So did I. I call that God working. There is no problem reading ahead...It gives you a good overview. Even the stories in the back all tell what is what like...The hopelessness of the situation....What happened....And what it's like after they found the solution. I'll give you a little hint on how it's laid out.

The directions for the steps are in the first 103 pages.

The Doctor's Opinion and pages 1 - 43 cover step one. Almost half of it devoted to step 1.

Pages 44 - 63 deal with step 2 and 3.

Next 20 pages...Bottom of 63 to 84 covers 6 crucial steps....4 through 9. That's where change happens.

That leaves 19 pages for 10, 11 and 12. With step 12 being the only step with it's own chapter.

You can read it...Read it again....And read it again....You'll get something new everytime. I don't think I've ever seen a book like it.

I'm happy for you SDG.

shydryguy · Member

Thanks for the suggestions!