I heard that we should stick with winners. The ones with a long time sober that are working the program.
Seems simple enough. It was what I was told.
it makes me wonder why we have so many threads discussing simple things in the big book like they are a complex equation. We are not talking about the quadratic equation, just some steps and a book. There seem to be many other ways of doing things under an umbrella of getting sober. I know the big book says they have no corner on recovery. If my dad could have sobered up on the pink jellybean method of recovery method I would have been overjoyed.
He did not recover. Not on AA, not on pink jelly beans. He died drunk.
so that leads me to a few questions. Maybe controversial, maybe not. I don't shy away from those things.
Is the big book really still the cornerstone of recovery now?
Is this site about all recovery methods?
It seems there is a significant bit of hybridizing going on under the name of ESH sharing. Is this the new norm in online recovery? It is not the norm in the groups I have attended. But, I usually look for traditional AA groups. I am faithful to AA myself. But, if a loved one responded to some other method I would be happy for them.
Does anyone here have a loved one that sobered up on something other than AA?
__________________
"I spent a lifetime in hell and it only took me twelve steps to get to heaven."
"Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you."
Stick with the winners...I use to sit with the winners and ask, "can you help me"? and then listen open mindedly. When their solution became a solution for me also thru understanding and practice I stuck with it. I practice those winning principles in all my affairs. Confusion sucks and I have experienced that it dwindles and disappears with open minded listening and practice in all my affairs. I've been around for a long time and have never heard of the "pink jelly bean" method of recovery. Is there really such a thing? How does it help your confusion? Sticking with simple is best for me. The simplest is best. My Higher Power requests that I keep it that way between HP and me...so I do.
Should and could the Big Book Alcoholics Anonymous be the cornerstone of recovery ever; "Rarely have we ever seen a person fail who has throughly follow these steps"; and still we have seen it often. This morning we presented a 5 year chip to a 16 year member of AA. He is trying still to be in the "rarely" group as so many have tried also. For me he is one of the winners I speak with and ask "can you help me"?..."can you help me understand the process of relapse as it has presented itself in your life? I'm also attempting to remain a member of the "rarely" group.
I've been a member of MIP for almost 5 years. To me this is a site about recovery methods. I don't know what the word "all" means as it sounds much too extreem. I find solution here along with my programs for recovery from the affects of alcoholism in my life.
"It seems there is a significant bit of hybridizing going on under the name of ESH sharing". I'd like to share a metaphor story I learned in recovery. An alcoholic went to the beach for a fun day and while wading in the surf got his foot caught in the rocks. A child ran to him and said "Mister I think your foot is caught. Can I help you take it free the tide is about to rise". The alcoholic turned and smiled at the child and said. "Child I am attended by a Power Greater than myself who will release my foot and keep me safe". The child left and when back to his toys. The tide started to rise and a woman waded out to the alcoholic with a air matress. "Sit on this, I'll free your foot. The tide is coming up." He responded to her as he did the child and turned away. The tide rose to his waist and a surfer attempted to help him free his foot with the same response and he too went away. The alcoholic stood still and looking up to heaven said "The tide is surely coming up will I be free soon"? and just after that prayer two people came by in a kayak offering to dive into the water and loosen his foot so he could make his way to shore and freedom. He chose to response as he had before and then as the water ad risen to his shoulders a party of skiers arrived to help him offering to get him into their boat and take him to safety...and he chose to wait for the one single response he leaned upon. Well all of the people on shore including those who tried to help him paniced and called the Coast Guard which showed up as the water rested just under his chin while his head tilted back to the heavens. Remarkably...he refused the rope which would lift him to safety and then he drowned and then he was in heaven pissed as he felt a right to be. The gate watch asked him why he was there...he wasn't scheduled for years to which he ranted and yelled I called upon my Higher Power to free me and save my life and I was left to drown. The guardian responded, "Impossible"!! I myself called for help...first the child and then the good woman with the matress and the surfer next who was followed by the friends in the kayak. Surely the people in the boat were there were they not? I talked to the dispatcher for the Coast Guard who released a helicopter to your cry for help.
I am sure that this is not the only metaphor for courage to change the things I can and openmindedness. I've heard many others since 1979. As I was told by my sponsor early in recovery, "You are to find and use what ever is available to gain and maintain your sobriety...for that you are responsible". I heard the will of my Higher Power in that direction and still do and I still practice it. I hang with the relapsers (and non) in recovery as they help me learn solutions to the problem of "yet".
I've been a member of MIP for almost 5 years. To me this is a site about recovery methods.
I haven't been a member here that long....But in the time I have been here....I always thought of this as an AA site which only has one method...That's all that AA offers. If you want to be in that "rarely" group...Thoroughly follow it. I find it confusing for newcomers when people throw all kinds of Mish Mash into it...How do you thoroughly follow that? I stick with what's in the book....One method...One path...One suggested program of recovery....I'm there for the relapsers....I stick with the winners...I follow the program outlined in the book.
If I heard things in meetings I hear on this site....And they were accepted by the oldtimers there as true....I'd be doing a disservice to my myself and any newcomer there if I just sat back and agreed with it....Or I'd find a different meeting. I wish you all the best with whatever method you find here.....I only know one that I've seen work for a hopeless alcoholic....Because I was that hopeless alcoholic. I was told early on...If you want what we have...To be a part of that "rarely" group....Then you should do exactly what we did. No other methods....No other easier softer ways...And that's what I did. And it worked. Why have we seen it fail so often Jerry?.....It wasn't the path that failed...That hasn't changed at all since they laid it out....It's as simple as they stopped following it....Or they were never on it to begin with. Good luck to all of you.
And I identified with Jerry's share very well ... and Stepman has the same uptake on this that I have ... Basically, I feel Bill was 'divinely inspired' when putting the BB down on paper ... and in my opinion, the 'higher power' I choose to follow, is the same power that brought all this about to start with ... and like Jerry's story, I'd only show myself to be a fool for not taking advantage of the helping hand so freely offered by those who are living in recovery based on the program as laid out in the BB ... to me, all other methods are just folly for hard headed idiots, of which, I used to be the head idiot, LOL ...
I say stick with what is 'known' to work ...
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
I honestly think we need all types here. Sober Strummer and Stepchild have a great Big Book message and I don't think the rest of us are all at "anti-big book" so thats not worth arguing over. If you guys just keep steering it back to the BB, your message will be latched on to by those who need it and are ready. I was not deterred by all the AA slogans that are not in the BB. Some helped me. They exist for a reason. People will find their way in AA like we all did.
People don't go out because of "hybridization" or not recieving a purist BB message. They go out because they are not ready to recover. They go out because they simply stop going to meetings and working with sponsors and they never do steps at all. They go out because they have enablers in their life that raise the likelihood of that happening. THOSE are more pertinent reasons why people go out in my opinion. I don't think we can afford to argue or debate negatively about our messages and how they differ. Just bring your best to the table and let others do the same.
I feel like Rodney King here....CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???
__________________
Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
The following post is my opinion and is not intended to challenge or offend any other posters who I believe have the right to their own beliefs. Just my own "share" which you can take what you want, leave the rest, or leave it all if desired. Hugs to all!
My father died of alcoholism. I have a few other relatives who died of what was contributed to alcoholism. I also have had friends who stopped drinking on their own and have two family members who after were daily drinkers for years, stopped drinking on their own years ago. Neither attended even one AA meeting. Only they can judge if they were/are "alcoholics", as I have learned on this board that no one can make that call except for that individual.
I have a friend in AA, who attends meetings several times a week and has stayed sober for several years. He has never had a sponsor, has never worked the steps. Is he a "loser"? Is someone with cancer who refuses treatment prescribed by his medical doctor a "loser"? (I detest "labels"). This AA friend is one of the nicest people I have met. I never have heard him say one cruel word about anyone and he has a good sense of humor, which is good for this depressed alcoholic. He is proud of his sobriety time. He doesn't have many AA friends, though. He is shunned by other AA'ers because he doesn't do the things "required" in others' minds as necessary to be "successful" in the program, so he is treated like somewhat of an outcast. Notice I used "in others' minds" as I believe the only requirement in AA is the desire to stop drinking and "there are no rules" in AA are in the Big Book. Is he working his own method of staying sober threatening my sobriety? Not one bit. I also have another alcoholic friend who is staying sober without AA. Am I going to drop him as a friend because he is not in AA? Absolutely not. However, I have been advised by "well meaning" people that I shouldn't associate with any other alcoholic who is not working the program as well as told to my face after 3 months of sobriety and I didn't have a sponsor that I was not "serious about the program and we are not going to let you threaten our sobriety".
I have been around people in AA who have sponsors, have worked the steps and have long term sobriety who gossip and badmouth others. I just walk away now when that happens and I don't even care if they get mad at me--that's their issue, not mine and I prefer not to "stick" with people who find it necessary to tear others down. There are those who are nice and friendly to me at one meeting, and then won't have anything to do with me at another meeting. I am not going to call these people "winners" or "losers". I hate labels and as I have posted before on this site think it is a cruel way to identify human beings. I was called "loser" in my younger years enough to remember how painful it is.
I also believe in freedom of choice and freedom of speech and "live and let live", as I have posted on here.
I have read books on meditation, Yoga, Kabbalah, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Psychology, CBT, etc.
Read most of the Hazelden (not AA approved) offerings along with Wayne Dyer, Louise Hay, Maria Sirois et al .... pretty well everything I can get my hands on.
For me those texts/writings fall under the 3rd "Pertinent Idea" .... that God could and would if He were sought.
In reading what has been written, except for Pinkchip, who I feel has too much of an agenda.... It seems our various God powers in our lives brought us to a place of power. For me it is the A,B,C's of the big book. Power to stop killing ourselves.
I too have seen others sober up in church. Not one flavor of church, across a few types. And I have only seen a few churches... A small percentage of what is out there.
I can hear the steps in other writings. They resonate with me, the hope and power inside.
It is also undeniable so many fail in every program. Quite sad to see. I am close to 20 years. I know of two others that joined in my home group and surrounding small town group that are still sober on the same surrender chip.
Thank you for your shares. It is a legit question. What else saved a loved one?
For me, AA worked where all else failed. God used the right tool for the job. I can say that other programs would have left me dead. It was not the right tool for me to sober up. I found what worked.
I can see that others found the tool that works for them. In the end, I wish my dad would have found any way to stay sober. He died pretty much insane, drunk, disgraced, alone.
He never got what we call the A,B,C's for any type of recovery program. I can't believe anyone would want a loved one to perish from this torture because they were on the wrong program.
__________________
"I spent a lifetime in hell and it only took me twelve steps to get to heaven."
"Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you."
Why did you single me out? Do you mean the agenda to get along? For real I don't think I have answers others don't. I'm not special. I'm not sure what agenda I have other than trying to maintain some order on the board without being overbearing...which is a task I will admit I'm not always doing so great. Explanation SS please. I respect your views and I have a lot less sobriety than you so I also know you have stuff you can teach me.
Did I miss something? Not sure how to respond to comments that sound like: I like what everyone had to say but pinkchip. ?? Confused.
__________________
Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
I feel you are assigning things not said to the thread because you are in the fight. I am a vet. I get that. I have seen it and felt it. No claimed wisdom or teaching Pink. Just an observation. Your feud with Stepchild seems to be spilling over.
The real question is about how have people made it? Your loved one that could not get AA, how did they get sober?
If AA is a screwdriver, and your uncle will die needing a hammer, where do you help him find hope?
What else is really working?
We talk of being open. So is there an actual alternative, or do make it up as we go along. The AA buffet hybrid approach?
The proponents of the open approach, what is it? For a lost soul that flounders in AA, what to do?
I think of my dad. Just never got it. Sat and wept in a meeting, begging god for help. Seen others do the same. But they just never get sober. They get dead. The cool thing about a long time sober is the faces of your friends. The bad thing about long term sobriety is the faces of your friends. And an old timer of 30 some years shared that when I was new. I could not fathom it. He was the patriarch, if you will. He died sober.
He asked people to share the message toward the end of his time. Told us we were living in grace, to share the message.
All bickering and feuding aide, what is the other message?
__________________
"I spent a lifetime in hell and it only took me twelve steps to get to heaven."
"Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you."
I feel you are assigning things not said to the thread because you are in the fight. I am a vet. I get that. I have seen it and felt it. No claimed wisdom or teaching Pink. Just an observation. Your feud with Stepchild seems to be spilling over. That said, I may be off base on that. Only you really know. If you think so, I can accept that And will fess up to seeing it wrong.
The real question to me is about how have people made it? Your loved one that could not get AA, how did they get sober?
If AA is a screwdriver, and your uncle will die needing a hammer, where do you help him find hope?
What else is really working?
We talk of being open. So is there an actual alternative, or do make it up as we go along. The AA buffet hybrid approach?
The proponents of the open approach, what is it? For a lost soul that flounders in AA, what to do?
I think of my dad. Just never got it. Sat and wept in a meeting, begging god for help. Seen others do the same. But they just never get sober. They get dead. The cool thing about a long time sober is the faces of your friends. The bad thing about long term sobriety is the faces of your friends. And an old timer of 30 some years shared that when I was new. I could not fathom it. He was the patriarch, if you will. He died sober.
He asked people to share the message toward the end of his time. Told us we were living in grace, to share the message.
All bickering and feuding aide, what is the other message?
Edited the first paragraph.... I could be wrong...
-- Edited by Sober Strummer on Monday 23rd of December 2013 01:12:10 PM
__________________
"I spent a lifetime in hell and it only took me twelve steps to get to heaven."
"Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you."
Nah. You are probably right to a degree. I took the title to mean who on this board to we stick with and my response was as such. Stick will all of us basically.
So on topic I hope. I had 2 alcoholic uncles. One did this the AA way and he died sober (unfortunately at an early age of 63). He was much improved in terms of the way he acted. He was calmer and a better person. The other one did get sober off becoming an exercise addict and devout methodist. Clearly, he was a better version of his drunk self also. It was a spiritual awakening and it did seem to work for him. He was more prone to fanaticism and extreme views that never got checked by anyone. PLUS when he became too old to exercise like he used to and go to church as much, he relapsed after 30 plus years of being dry.
Mostly, I feel that it benefits people to hear the benefits of sobreity from us who have it and then they will get into wanting to do what it takes to get it. Taking action in some form is key because doing nothing is absolutely not gonna get us sober right?
For the lost soul floundering in AA - Getting them into anything AA is going to help them in my opinion. The flounder because they don't go to enough meetings, don't get a sponsor, don't work steps, don't read any literature, don't do service, and don't get involved in the fellowship. They do some but not all of it. I think we sell hope by wearing our programs like loose garments (yeah a cliche AA slogan not in the BB I know) but this may attract them to this way of life rather than half measures which avail us nothing. I tell folks AA does not work in small doses. I works when you go all in. The whole enchilada. That's what worked for me. ALL of it. Including this message board.
-- Edited by pinkchip on Monday 23rd of December 2013 02:08:13 PM
__________________
Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Twelve step programs work by working The Twelve Steps. Our founders admit that they did not cover all the paths we take in The Big Book when working those 12 steps. We do that by sharing our experience, strength and hope working those steps. I sure as hell don't believe that God cut off all further divine inspiration in the fellowship once The Big Book went into publication. It's through those 12 steps that I can see my Higher Power's hand at work everyday.
Twelve step programs work by working The Twelve Steps. Our founders admit that they did not cover all the paths we take in The Big Book when working those 12 steps. We do that by sharing our experience, strength and hope working those steps. I sure as hell don't believe that God cut off all further divine inspiration in the fellowship once The Big Book went into publication. It's through those 12 steps that I can see my Higher Power's hand at work everyday.
I get that. Agree with it.
what is it? That is the simple question.
we are saying here there is more. Ok. What is it? The writers of the big book put some things down In print. It must have been extremely challenging to go first like they did. So if we are indeed adding on to things. Of our various interpretations of God has released more, then lets put it in print, share it. I agree the divine inspiration may go on. So what was it.
That is not an unreasonable question. It is cool to say inspiration has not stopped. That being the case, how have things evolved?
Who has something new?
__________________
"I spent a lifetime in hell and it only took me twelve steps to get to heaven."
"Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you."
I like how they worded it in the original manuscript...Before toning it down for a wider audience.
Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it -then you are ready to follow directions. At some of these you may balk. You may think you can find an easier, softer way. We doubt if you can. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
I like how they worded it in the original manuscript...Before toning it down for a wider audience.
Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it -then you are ready to follow directions. At some of these you may balk. You may think you can find an easier, softer way. We doubt if you can. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
I agree with you.
but I have also seen those that just can't get it. They can't work the AA program.
I have seen people get sober in church. I don't know how.
but for those we know and love that can't seem to grasp AA, what is the other path?
what is the new way of thinking that we are keeping an open mind to? It is clear we are not to be dogmatic about AA being the only way on this site. It gets censored off, emails of corrective thought instruction from moderators, threads gone.
i will gladly say I am wrong from the rooftop if one of my friends from high school can get a program, any program, and stay sober.
i don't care.
but the question remains, what else works As well as AA has or even better?
__________________
"I spent a lifetime in hell and it only took me twelve steps to get to heaven."
"Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you."
MIP has several avenues to learn from Joe, as you well know. The founder of this site recognized the importance of keeping things separate but available to all and anyone who desire to continue to seek spiritual growth. For me, being one of the many on this site who have used many of the boards - I find that it all boils down to the same thing under all the titles. It's great to have the titles and identify - but after a while it just looks like support - recovery - 12 steps - principles and fellowship. I looked at my own fears under the reasons it was so unsettling to me to see these other fellowships and other people and also 'mixed' people working many different programs. But after a while - I started seeing something amazing. ALL - every single one of the people who inspired me here on this board when I came here first (before a live meeting even), helped me with love and tolerance, a true understanding of our traditions and principles - and never gave up hope for me or themselves - were ALL people I later found out had dabbled into several of the boards here on MIP. They never said that in the beginning - they told me to get my ass to a live meeting and do what I needed to do - all in - as pinky said - to maintain sobriety for 24 hours. They kept saying it and saying it and talking me through my 5 week long period of weekly slips and they loved me when I came back 'all in' with no inhibition.
As time went on, and I realized living with another adult child gave me a REAL urgent need for alanon as I was hitting a whole new bottom with control - I began to see names from here.
Then I found ACA and I was home at last - only because of the sobriety offered to me in the BB AA fellowship. No told me to go there to get and stay sober - I was gently guided toward help for other bottoms I was having in sobriety. Not sure exactly what my sobriety really would look like today without it - possibly pretty dry drunkish looking. I look around my AA halls and see a lot of people who are doing everything they are 'suppose' to be doing but you can see they just need to cover a couple other things to truly be free from the bondage of self. I don't tell them what to do. If it happens to come up as to where I'm going for coffee after what meeting - sometimes I will mention I'm going to a different 12 step meeting alanon or aca or coda - but I can still meet you after.
Usually they don't inquire about it at all - and I leave it at that. I believe HP will direct them when they hit their own bottoms with other things.
Some people believe that AA can cover it all. It likely can for some of that very small percent who get here, and get to stay here. An even smaller percent truly live it, and I believe I really started to truly live it about the same time I ended up working the 12 step program with other people who deserve recovery just as much as me. Until then, I guess I thought I was better and deserved it more or something... or maybe that there was no way they could ever 'get it' because they could never have a real bottom like me. But I was reminded I could be wrong - and to do my time listening and with an open mind just like in AA - and sure enough - I was wrong. My fears were worked out in the steps. I happened to do those steps with my AA sponsor about my fears of ALanon and ACA. It was amazing to see how much I had held onto after the first round of my steps. I was still in denial and very unaware of myself - probably still am. I hope so - because I rather enjoy the 'more is always revealed' aspect of this program and others. I guess that's the adult child in me addicted to excitement - but I just don't really care what it is in me - I'm just me - recovering with HP and steps and you and principles and all the good things that are offered in the rooms.
You see - this program works so well - and worked so well for me - that my drink problem was actually removed as it says in the book - and every promise has come true. So I have no desire to drink.
For me - at this point - having done and continuing to do all that is asked of me in this program, I found that my desire to start living, out weighed my desire to stop drinking. Well of course it did - that is removed!
So I go where the love and recovery is... where ever that is. I go where I can be useful to HP - and look at my entire human family as deserving of that.
I don't believe I have the power to get anyone drunk with this message of hope for a better life. My fears have been worked out in the steps.
What are your fears under your label 'hybrid'. Do you think it will kill people? Do you think YOU can kill people if you do this program differently or in your mind 'wrong'? I'm just curious as to what your fears are under this - as I am learning too... from you.
2 friends died this week from over doses in our 'live' rooms. A woman woke to find her husband dead on her pregnant belly - OD.
Was it her fault for not doing her program right? She had stopped going to meetings because she was having to much throwing up with the pregnancy. Was it the baby's fault?
I guess my biggest fear was always that what I did could kill people or save people here. That if I didn't carry the message 'right' I had the power to kill.
I had to (for me) remove power from my spiritual tool kit - and call it inspire - so that I wasn't so terrified to even show up - and keep showing up and doing what I needed to do to live and be able to keep my hand extended for those who still suffer. For that - I am responsible - and the day I put my hand back in my pocket I am likely back to being a dry drunk. That can't work for me - I need to truly live now that I get to be alive.
If this can't work for you Joe - that is completely fine - HP will take you where he needs you and your answers will come in prayer. We are to be of service where we can be most useful - seeking only His will for our lives. If I am not useful to you, and you to me today, it will be obvious as my guiding light and HP guides me toward where I am more useful by asking me "Does this feel peaceful and loving?"
Today it does. You are a precious gift to the world - and HP's work of art. I pray I can treat you as such. I feel I haven't completely honored and respected His gift. I'm sorry for that Joe, and I do plan to offer living amends. xoxxoxooxooo
__________________
Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
Nah. You are probably right to a degree. I took the title to mean who on this board to we stick with and my response was as such. Stick will all of us basically.
So on topic I hope. I had 2 alcoholic uncles. One did this the AA way and he died sober (unfortunately at an early age of 63). He was much improved in terms of the way he acted. He was calmer and a better person. The other one did get sober off becoming an exercise addict and devout methodist. Clearly, he was a better version of his drunk self also. It was a spiritual awakening and it did seem to work for him. He was more prone to fanaticism and extreme views that never got checked by anyone. PLUS when he became too old to exercise like he used to and go to church as much, he relapsed after 30 plus years of being dry.
Mostly, I feel that it benefits people to hear the benefits of sobreity from us who have it and then they will get into wanting to do what it takes to get it. Taking action in some form is key because doing nothing is absolutely not gonna get us sober right?
For the lost soul floundering in AA - Getting them into anything AA is going to help them in my opinion. The flounder because they don't go to enough meetings, don't get a sponsor, don't work steps, don't read any literature, don't do service, and don't get involved in the fellowship. They do some but not all of it. I think we sell hope by wearing our programs like loose garments (yeah a cliche AA slogan not in the BB I know) but this may attract them to this way of life rather than half measures which avail us nothing. I tell folks AA does not work in small doses. I works when you go all in. The whole enchilada. That's what worked for me. ALL of it. Including this message board.
-- Edited by pinkchip on Monday 23rd of December 2013 02:08:13 PM
Well Pink, in all honesty, people in AA relapse after 30 years. I only knew a guy personally that drank again afree about 13-14 years. He had multiple back operations. I think he handled that. He then had his wife in an affair with a guy in the group. I think that was more than he could handle.
I have no Claim on knowing how to sell AA. seriously. I help people on occasion. I get asked to sponsor because of what happened to me. Literal drunken bum to gettimg thru college and grad school and into corporate America sober. I claim no smooth edges. I am an amphib warfare veteran. Not always known as the hugging type. For that, if I have offended you, I apologize. But..... in some very strange ways, god has used me as a tool in the box for getting many others sober. People will ask me to tell them the truth. Like they know it already, but just want to hear it Unvarnished. Not mean, but not glossed over.
It has not been the way I thought or wanted In AA all the time. Not able to help my close friends or family. But I only knew how to wreck a life. No small wonder my way was not gods way. But there were newcomers and strangers. I guess they were friends and family to other people that could not reach them.
Thanks for a great share. I appreciate your honesty.
__________________
"I spent a lifetime in hell and it only took me twelve steps to get to heaven."
"Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you."
MIP has several avenues to learn from Joe, as you well know. The founder of this site recognized the importance of keeping things separate but available to all and anyone who desire to continue to seek spiritual growth. For me, being one of the many on this site who have used many of the boards - I find that it all boils down to the same thing under all the titles. It's great to have the titles and identify - but after a while it just looks like support - recovery - 12 steps - principles and fellowship. I looked at my own fears under the reasons it was so unsettling to me to see these other fellowships and other people and also 'mixed' people working many different programs. But after a while - I started seeing something amazing. ALL - every single one of the people who inspired me here on this board when I came here first (before a live meeting even), helped me with love and tolerance, a true understanding of our traditions and principles - and never gave up hope for me or themselves - were ALL people I later found out had dabbled into several of the boards here on MIP. They never said that in the beginning - they told me to get my ass to a live meeting and do what I needed to do - all in - as pinky said - to maintain sobriety for 24 hours. They kept saying it and saying it and talking me through my 5 week long period of weekly slips and they loved me when I came back 'all in' with no inhibition.
As time went on, and I realized living with another adult child gave me a REAL urgent need for alanon as I was hitting a whole new bottom with control - I began to see names from here.
Then I found ACA and I was home at last - only because of the sobriety offered to me in the BB AA fellowship. No told me to go there to get and stay sober - I was gently guided toward help for other bottoms I was having in sobriety. Not sure exactly what my sobriety really would look like today without it - possibly pretty dry drunkish looking. I look around my AA halls and see a lot of people who are doing everything they are 'suppose' to be doing but you can see they just need to cover a couple other things to truly be free from the bondage of self. I don't tell them what to do. If it happens to come up as to where I'm going for coffee after what meeting - sometimes I will mention I'm going to a different 12 step meeting alanon or aca or coda - but I can still meet you after.
Usually they don't inquire about it at all - and I leave it at that. I believe HP will direct them when they hit their own bottoms with other things.
Some people believe that AA can cover it all. It likely can for some of that very small percent who get here, and get to stay here. An even smaller percent truly live it, and I believe I really started to truly live it about the same time I ended up working the 12 step program with other people who deserve recovery just as much as me. Until then, I guess I thought I was better and deserved it more or something... or maybe that there was no way they could ever 'get it' because they could never have a real bottom like me. But I was reminded I could be wrong - and to do my time listening and with an open mind just like in AA - and sure enough - I was wrong. My fears were worked out in the steps. I happened to do those steps with my AA sponsor about my fears of ALanon and ACA. It was amazing to see how much I had held onto after the first round of my steps. I was still in denial and very unaware of myself - probably still am. I hope so - because I rather enjoy the 'more is always revealed' aspect of this program and others. I guess that's the adult child in me addicted to excitement - but I just don't really care what it is in me - I'm just me - recovering with HP and steps and you and principles and all the good things that are offered in the rooms.
You see - this program works so well - and worked so well for me - that my drink problem was actually removed as it says in the book - and every promise has come true. So I have no desire to drink.
For me - at this point - having done and continuing to do all that is asked of me in this program, I found that my desire to start living, out weighed my desire to stop drinking. Well of course it did - that is removed!
So I go where the love and recovery is... where ever that is. I go where I can be useful to HP - and look at my entire human family as deserving of that.
I don't believe I have the power to get anyone drunk with this message of hope for a better life. My fears have been worked out in the steps.
What are your fears under your label 'hybrid'. Do you think it will kill people? Do you think YOU can kill people if you do this program differently or in your mind 'wrong'? I'm just curious as to what your fears are under this - as I am learning too... from you.
2 friends died this week from over doses in our 'live' rooms. A woman woke to find her husband dead on her pregnant belly - OD.
Was it her fault for not doing her program right? She had stopped going to meetings because she was having to much throwing up with the pregnancy. Was it the baby's fault?
I guess my biggest fear was always that what I did could kill people or save people here. That if I didn't carry the message 'right' I had the power to kill.
I had to (for me) remove power from my spiritual tool kit - and call it inspire - so that I wasn't so terrified to even show up - and keep showing up and doing what I needed to do to live and be able to keep my hand extended for those who still suffer. For that - I am responsible - and the day I put my hand back in my pocket I am likely back to being a dry drunk. That can't work for me - I need to truly live now that I get to be alive.
If this can't work for you Joe - that is completely fine - HP will take you where he needs you and your answers will come in prayer. We are to be of service where we can be most useful - seeking only His will for our lives. If I am not useful to you, and you to me today, it will be obvious as my guiding light and HP guides me toward where I am more useful by asking me "Does this feel peaceful and loving?"
Today it does. You are a precious gift to the world - and HP's work of art. I pray I can treat you as such. I feel I haven't completely honored and respected His gift. I'm sorry for that Joe, and I do plan to offer living amends. xoxxoxooxooo
Tasha,
thank you for the thoughtful reply. I had to read it a few times.
You have your light and life to share. I feel it will resonate with those God sends you to help. I have my light, a traditional AA type program. I hope to be there for the person that needs it. On power, I am at peace. I get what I need when I need it. On loan. I am comfortable on that topic and with the power in my life to live, love, server, and rest.
if I work the program different than you, would it bother you if I was part of helping one of your loved ones get sober? Of course not! We just want our loved ones free of addiction!
that is all my question is. Is there anything else that works? If you were not AA but sober, I would love for you to help my family if you could. Kinda like a cancer dr saying here is our treatment, and it fails... So find another oncologist. You don't just do another round of the same treatment.
Maybe it is a rabbit trail. But if god is still speaking, and minds are open to new ideas, what have we got?
__________________
"I spent a lifetime in hell and it only took me twelve steps to get to heaven."
"Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you."
MIP has several avenues to learn from Joe, as you well know. The founder of this site recognized the importance of keeping things separate but available to all and anyone who desire to continue to seek spiritual growth. For me, being one of the many on this site who have used many of the boards - I find that it all boils down to the same thing under all the titles. It's great to have the titles and identify - but after a while it just looks like support - recovery - 12 steps - principles and fellowship. I looked at my own fears under the reasons it was so unsettling to me to see these other fellowships and other people and also 'mixed' people working many different programs. But after a while - I started seeing something amazing. ALL - every single one of the people who inspired me here on this board when I came here first (before a live meeting even), helped me with love and tolerance, a true understanding of our traditions and principles - and never gave up hope for me or themselves - were ALL people I later found out had dabbled into several of the boards here on MIP. They never said that in the beginning - they told me to get my ass to a live meeting and do what I needed to do - all in - as pinky said - to maintain sobriety for 24 hours. They kept saying it and saying it and talking me through my 5 week long period of weekly slips and they loved me when I came back 'all in' with no inhibition.
As time went on, and I realized living with another adult child gave me a REAL urgent need for alanon as I was hitting a whole new bottom with control - I began to see names from here.
Then I found ACA and I was home at last - only because of the sobriety offered to me in the BB AA fellowship. No told me to go there to get and stay sober - I was gently guided toward help for other bottoms I was having in sobriety. Not sure exactly what my sobriety really would look like today without it - possibly pretty dry drunkish looking. I look around my AA halls and see a lot of people who are doing everything they are 'suppose' to be doing but you can see they just need to cover a couple other things to truly be free from the bondage of self. I don't tell them what to do. If it happens to come up as to where I'm going for coffee after what meeting - sometimes I will mention I'm going to a different 12 step meeting alanon or aca or coda - but I can still meet you after.
Usually they don't inquire about it at all - and I leave it at that. I believe HP will direct them when they hit their own bottoms with other things.
Some people believe that AA can cover it all. It likely can for some of that very small percent who get here, and get to stay here. An even smaller percent truly live it, and I believe I really started to truly live it about the same time I ended up working the 12 step program with other people who deserve recovery just as much as me. Until then, I guess I thought I was better and deserved it more or something... or maybe that there was no way they could ever 'get it' because they could never have a real bottom like me. But I was reminded I could be wrong - and to do my time listening and with an open mind just like in AA - and sure enough - I was wrong. My fears were worked out in the steps. I happened to do those steps with my AA sponsor about my fears of ALanon and ACA. It was amazing to see how much I had held onto after the first round of my steps. I was still in denial and very unaware of myself - probably still am. I hope so - because I rather enjoy the 'more is always revealed' aspect of this program and others. I guess that's the adult child in me addicted to excitement - but I just don't really care what it is in me - I'm just me - recovering with HP and steps and you and principles and all the good things that are offered in the rooms.
You see - this program works so well - and worked so well for me - that my drink problem was actually removed as it says in the book - and every promise has come true. So I have no desire to drink.
For me - at this point - having done and continuing to do all that is asked of me in this program, I found that my desire to start living, out weighed my desire to stop drinking. Well of course it did - that is removed!
So I go where the love and recovery is... where ever that is. I go where I can be useful to HP - and look at my entire human family as deserving of that.
I don't believe I have the power to get anyone drunk with this message of hope for a better life. My fears have been worked out in the steps.
What are your fears under your label 'hybrid'. Do you think it will kill people? Do you think YOU can kill people if you do this program differently or in your mind 'wrong'? I'm just curious as to what your fears are under this - as I am learning too... from you.
2 friends died this week from over doses in our 'live' rooms. A woman woke to find her husband dead on her pregnant belly - OD.
Was it her fault for not doing her program right? She had stopped going to meetings because she was having to much throwing up with the pregnancy. Was it the baby's fault?
I guess my biggest fear was always that what I did could kill people or save people here. That if I didn't carry the message 'right' I had the power to kill.
I had to (for me) remove power from my spiritual tool kit - and call it inspire - so that I wasn't so terrified to even show up - and keep showing up and doing what I needed to do to live and be able to keep my hand extended for those who still suffer. For that - I am responsible - and the day I put my hand back in my pocket I am likely back to being a dry drunk. That can't work for me - I need to truly live now that I get to be alive.
If this can't work for you Joe - that is completely fine - HP will take you where he needs you and your answers will come in prayer. We are to be of service where we can be most useful - seeking only His will for our lives. If I am not useful to you, and you to me today, it will be obvious as my guiding light and HP guides me toward where I am more useful by asking me "Does this feel peaceful and loving?"
Today it does. You are a precious gift to the world - and HP's work of art. I pray I can treat you as such. I feel I haven't completely honored and respected His gift. I'm sorry for that Joe, and I do plan to offer living amends. xoxxoxooxooo
Tasha,
thank you for the thoughtful reply. I had to read it a few times.
You have your light and life to share. I feel it will resonate with those God sends you to help. I have my light, a traditional AA type program. I hope to be there for the person that needs it. On power, I am at peace. I get what I need when I need it. On loan. I am comfortable on that topic and with the power in my life to live, love, server, and rest.
if I work the program different than you, would it bother you if I was part of helping one of your loved ones get sober? Of course not! We just want our loved ones free of addiction!
that is all my question is. Is there anything else that works? If you were not AA but sober, I would love for you to help my family if you could. Kinda like a cancer dr saying here is our treatment, and it fails... So find another oncologist. You don't just do another round of the same treatment.
Maybe it is a rabbit trail. But if god is still speaking, and minds are open to new ideas, what have we got?
If we are just mixing up multiple programs into a hodge podge of feel good ideas, that is different. If there is no new and better AA, diluting the core message that set us free is a disservice to present day seekers.
if there is newer and better, it seems like the big book should be revised, new and better ideas fully embraced.
why would we not? Is there anything even proposed to be added to the big book?
__________________
"I spent a lifetime in hell and it only took me twelve steps to get to heaven."
"Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you."
Well, I tried a lot of things that didn't work, and that trail of failures lead me to AA.
I have since become aware of a number of alternatives to AAs original message which seem to work as well, but I've been around long enough to see that while long term recovery is sometimes achieved, "permanent recovery" is rare.
Recovery for who? I am talking about the alcoholic who cannot recover by non spiritual means, the "spiritual malady alcoholic". The cases that Jung and Silkworth described as absolutely hopeless, and the book calls "beyond human aid". Both the Big book and medical fraternity refer to alcoholics of other types, hard drinkers and so forth, and there has always been ways and means these folks straighten out. Will power and therapy work wonders with these folks.
Out in AA land, there is a belief that it is possible to stay sober on lots of meetings, the steps being only suggested. And the superficial evidence is that this can work. Certainly non spiritual malady alcoholics seem to be ok, and even alcoholics of my type occasionally clock up long periods of sobriety. But for us, this method does not bring spiritual awakening, sobriety is very much a day to day affair, we gain no experience of the fourth dimension, the whole thing eventually becomes tiring, and people drift away. In the long term, it is not the solution it appears to be. Good feelings are only found in meetings, and we can't be away from meetings for long before our lives fall apart. At best this is second rate sobriety. Someone mentioned losers vs winners. But it's more about winners or coming second. That's the choice.
The wall of human community works in churches as well. Our local Salvation Army holds "recovery church" for those who pass through its treatment program, and they promote it ahead of AA. It works fine as long as you don't leave town, and continue to attend church. Most do leave the church and end up drunk. The claimed recovery rate is 2%.
Then you have the spiritual experience based recovery, or conversion experience to use the medical term. Our medics here state that AA are in fact the experts in this field, and it is the most successful for alcoholocs of our type. This is the method of permanent recovery for spiritual malady alcoholics. Through the steps we experience a "complete psychic change" "a profound alteration in our reaction to life" " a personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism". "We lose interest in selfish things and become interested in our fellows", we become givers instead of takers. And we maintain this happy state of affairs through "self sacrifice and service to others".
This new selfless outlook (not usually achieved without God's help) is the very essence of spiritual exerience. When we here of long timers slipping, I guarantee the real cause will be one of the following.; that they never completed the steps nor had a spritual experience, or that they failed to grow spiritually, they were not working with others (we have to give it away to keep it). Meeting attendance has little to do with it, nor does any external event. The fact seem to be that without maintaining current spiritual experience, the obsession can return. All it takes is something bad to happen, and the alcoholic does what's natural.
Conversely, I have found I can get through the worst that life can throw at me, and the thought of drinking never occurs to me, just as the Book promised would be the case.
The question as to why some of us grab this program with both hands, and others seem unable to do so, is one we can never hope to answer. It is between each person and their maker. We lay out the kit of spiritual tools, but it is not up to us whether they are picked up. Our sobriety comes from trying to help others, trying to live by spiritual principles, and trying to do God's will.
So SS, I often hear "there are many ways to get sober" but I can't direct you to one that works with an alcoholic of my type, other than the AA program as layed out in the book Alcoholics Anonymous. I believe our job is to keep laying out the kit of spiritual tools for the newcomer's inspection, and try an avoid adding new tools or throwing out old ones. Like all tool kits, it is designed for a purpose, and if a toll is missing, it may not be possible to carry out that purpose.
God bless, MikeH.
-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Monday 23rd of December 2013 05:03:31 PM
"Is this site about all recovery methods?"
is this 'alcoholics anonymous message board" or 'all recovery methods" message board?
"Of our various interpretations of God has released more, then lets put it in print, share it.
what have YOU done to get it in print?? AA as a whole has already answered this. contact central office in new York. they will fill you in on where to find AA's stance.
"if there is newer and better, it seems like the big book should be revised, new and better ideas fully embraced."
contact central office in new York. they get this quite often and have answered it.
"For a lost soul that flounders in AA, what to do?"
no one IN AA flounders. we do have to trudge sometimes though.
it IS a simple program. been in existence for a LOT longer than most know.
Well, I tried a lot of things that didn't work, and that trail of failures lead me to AA.
I have since become aware of a number of alternatives to AAs original message which seem to work as well, but I've been around long enough to see that while long term recovery is sometimes achieved, "permanent recovery" is rare.
Recovery for who? I am talking about the alcoholic who cannot recover by non spiritual means, the "spiritual malady alcoholic". The cases that Jung and Silkworth described as absolutely hopeless, and the book calls "beyond human aid". Both the Big book and medical fraternity refer to alcoholics of other types, hard drinkers and so forth, and there has always been ways and means these folks straighten out. Will power and therapy work wonders with these folks.
Out in AA land, there is a belief that it is possible to stay sober on lots of meetings, the steps being only suggested. And the superficial evidence is that this can work. Certainly non spiritual malady alcoholics seem to be ok, and even alcoholics of my type occasionally clock up long periods of sobriety. But for us, this method does not bring spiritual awakening, sobriety is very much a day to day affair, we gain no experience of the fourth dimension, the whole thing eventually becomes tiring, and people drift away. In the long term, it is not the solution it appears to be. Good feelings are only found in meetings, and we can't be away from meetings for long before our lives fall apart. At best this is second rate sobriety. Someone mentioned losers vs winners. But it's more about winners or coming second. That's the choice.
The wall of human community works in churches as well. Our local Salvation Army holds "recovery church" for those who pass through its treatment program, and they promote it ahead of AA. It works fine as long as you don't leave town, and continue to attend church. Most do leave the church and end up drunk. The claimed recovery rate is 2%.
Then you have the spiritual experience based recovery, or conversion experience to use the medical term. Our medics here state that AA are in fact the experts in this field, and it is the most successful for alcoholocs of our type. This is the method of permanent recovery for spiritual malady alcoholics. Through the steps we experience a "complete psychic change" "a profound alteration in our reaction to life" " a personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism". "We lose interest in selfish things and become interested in our fellows", we become givers instead of takers. And we maintain this happy state of affairs through "self sacrifice and service to others".
This new selfless outlook (not usually achieved without God's help) is the very essence of spiritual exerience. When we here of long timers slipping, I guarantee the real cause will be one of the following.; that they never completed the steps nor had a spritual experience, or that they failed to grow spiritually, they were not working with others (we have to give it away to keep it). Meeting attendance has little to do with it, nor does any external event. The fact seem to be that without maintaining current spiritual experience, the obsession can return. All it takes is something bad to happen, and the alcoholic does what's natural.
Conversely, I have found I can get through the worst that life can throw at me, and the thought of drinking never occurs to me, just as the Book promised would be the case.
The question as to why some of us grab this program with both hands, and others seem unable to do so, is one we can never hope to answer. It is between each person and their maker. We lay out the kit of spiritual tools, but it is not up to us whether they are picked up. Our sobriety comes from trying to help others, trying to live by spiritual principles, and trying to do God's will.
So SS, I often hear "there are many ways to get sober" but I can't direct you to one that works with an alcoholic of my type, other than the AA program as layed out in the book Alcoholics Anonymous. I believe our job is to keep laying out the kit of spiritual tools for the newcomer's inspection, and try an avoid adding new tools or throwing out old ones. Like all tool kits, it is designed for a purpose, and if a toll is missing, it may not be possible to carry out that purpose.
God bless, MikeH.
-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Monday 23rd of December 2013 05:03:31 PM
That was great Mike. The spiritual experience based recovery with the complete psychic shift. That is me. That is it.
I like the way to broke those out.
I will think on that a while.
I like the toolkit for a job. AA for type of alcoholic we are. That feels like it ties the loose ends together.
__________________
"I spent a lifetime in hell and it only took me twelve steps to get to heaven."
"Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you."
"Is this site about all recovery methods?" is this 'alcoholics anonymous message board" or 'all recovery methods" message board?
"Of our various interpretations of God has released more, then lets put it in print, share it. what have YOU done to get it in print?? AA as a whole has already answered this. contact central office in new York. they will fill you in on where to find AA's stance. "if there is newer and better, it seems like the big book should be revised, new and better ideas fully embraced." contact central office in new York. they get this quite often and have answered it.
"For a lost soul that flounders in AA, what to do?" no one IN AA flounders. we do have to trudge sometimes though. it IS a simple program. been in existence for a LOT longer than most know.
I am traditional AA. The body of work is done.
With the many conversations of taking parts of AA or using other pieces of other programs, I was asking what is actually out there. I am a face to face meeting person. The online bit is new and feels a bit different.
Much more of a do your own thing vibe here than what I am used to.
i can see there are many like me.
Thanks
__________________
"I spent a lifetime in hell and it only took me twelve steps to get to heaven."
"Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you."
Fyne helped me see what sort of recovery I practice. Many others shared a similar love and loss story. I think this post and the contributors have helped me understand something that in the past has been quite painful.
It is always a thing of pain inside and humble reflection when someone I know in AA goes our or dies out there. The spiritual side of me knows how utterly bankrupt I was.
Maybe the moral inventory is a part of all that. The truth is my dad never did his step 4 & 5. That may have been part of his downfall.
When I see people like stepchild say working a half assed program may have killed him. I understand. I have seen it.
So we that are spiritual recovery drunks, the worst bankrupt types, for us it is indeed all or nothing. Half measures would kill us. it is not in a spirit of hate or meanness I say that. I don't know anyone else did. I do know I can lack tact at times.
So if you see my share bring something like that up, it is because it is true. It is not the sad truth, but the life saving truth. It is the truth that set me free. It took that leveling of pride, that utter defeat, to finally get some sense beat into my head.
So thank you all for the great thought provoking replies. Keeping it real and in your own recovery made it powerful.
Peace...
-- Edited by Sober Strummer on Monday 23rd of December 2013 06:41:29 PM
__________________
"I spent a lifetime in hell and it only took me twelve steps to get to heaven."
"Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you."
I like to think I have the type of sobriety fine spirit describes too. I probably have followed the path and tools laid out in the BB pretty well. I know my entire outlook and the way I view life is radically changed. I was spiritually empty upon coming to AA. I may have included other stuff that was new or over complicated it. I probably bought into some slogans and ideas that are spouted in meetings but are really not in literature. For example, I did go to lots of meetings thinking meeting makers make it. That didn't hurt me and may have been helpful because I was never dumb enough to assume the steps were on the wall to just be there. They need to be worked and I would think that's obvious. AA is a 12 step program...not a 12 meeting program. I like to think that people in AA helped me grasp the steps and the meaning laid out in the book. The ones I looked up to modeled those words in the BB and I saw that by observing them in meetings. So yeah. I did need that too and still do. Thanks for the thoughtful shares from all.
__________________
Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
