I am off.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

I am off.

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

xxxx

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

I would be curious Mark - if you don't mind sharing - what was/is the fear under this? How do you plan to replace it with faith? Just for my learning purposes if you would...

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

((((Mark)))) a fully qualified child of God and human being...and lots of other stuff too. Progress not perfection brother; were all on the same journey. smile

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Apology accepted......At least for here let's continue to share this common solution we all agree on to those that still suffer from alcoholism.

betterthanyesterday52 · MIP Old Timer

I am sorry you are going through all that you are pink chip. I think it takes a lot of courage to apologize when you feel like you were wrong and good for you. It is very hard for me to do. Hey, everyone tells me "we're all sick here". I think you are probably harder on yourself than anyone else is. At least if we are all keeping "our side of the street clean" that's the way it should be with no one passing judgement on the other (as I catch myself doing sometimes and have to talk to my HP about that). And on this board and in AA if I get my feelings hurt, I just try to tell myself not to get mad and leave AA (it scared me when your title said "I am off" because I thought you were leaving MIP and that made me sad).

Hope you find a meeting soon. I hear a lot of people in AA say if they go on vacation or for another reason don't go to meetings they just change so much until they are able to go to one. And just one of those things you mentioned you are going through would send alot of alcoholics back to the drink, so I hope you give yourself a lot of credit for enduring all that stuff and staying sober. You have given a lot of people hope on this board and I am sure at your local AA meetings. You have a great job helping others with addictions and I wish I could get to the point where one day I can devote a lot of my life to it like you are. I hope things ease up on you soon and I hope you don't mind me suggesting to you that "Living Sober" is really helping me. You may have a copy of it since you have been in the program several years. There are so many good chapters in there that help me. Anyway, hope you don't get mad me, a newbie, suggesting that to you.
Take care.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

I think there are several fears.

1. I am a fraud and if I don't always sound like I know how to get and stay sober, I am a sham on multiple levels.
2. I may relapse and become a retread and suffer through strings of rehabs. That has been terrible to watch. Plus now I am scared of drugs more seeing what they do and knowing I'm eligible and could be one back injury away from the start of a sneaky horrible opiate addiction.
3. I am put in a position over clients and that messes with me to think I am not like them, but like I said above, I also don't want to be like them in some ways.

Faith might be to stop over thinking and have God lay out the message. It might also be to separate professional competence from program esh. It also needs to be delve into AA harder because if not, I will be running on empty. And while some don't care for Alanon talk on this board, that may be part of me getting stronger to work with others. Dunno. That's just what I can come up with at this time.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Bty, living sober is a great book. Plus I absolutely need that kind of feedback from you and any newcomer cuz one danger of getting some time is forgetting the basic practices that got me to even 1 year in the first place.

Sober Strummer · Senior Member

Became willing to have God remove these shortcomings.

I try and remind myself of that sentence when I am struggling to reconcile how I feel and act with how I want to feel and act.

I also know that God will remove those shortcomings, it is not done on self power or self repair.

Hang in there.

betterthanyesterday52 · MIP Old Timer

My sponsor gave it to me and I just love it. Read some of it just a while ago and it was talking about relationships and how we alcoholics used "If only's" all the time. It's amazing that I can see and hear "myself" in AA literature, in meetings and on this board so much. For the longest time I used to think I was so different. I even hear people say that! LOL!

I hope it helped writing/typing out your fears pc, because maybe by getting that stuff out of your system it won't bother you as much. You know, I didn't realize it until you mentioned it in your list, but it does sound like it would be a challenge to listen to other addicts on a daily basis talk about their current situation using and hopefully, the "tools" you have learned since being in AA can help benefit you while you are trying to help others. You prob. know all this. Just trying to help you as you sound pretty down. It sounds like you have a good game plan and one that I hope will help you.

betterthanyesterday52 · MIP Old Timer

Gee, I just read what I typed and I sure don't want to sound like I know everything, because I know and you all know that I truly don't :)

This is such a wonderful place where people can be upset "sounding" at one another one day and be okay sounding the next. I just love it. Anger and holding grudges just makes me want to drink. You people are just great!

Anyway, I better get off here. It is late and I need to get some sleep. Hope you all have a good night...well, morning here!

Sober Strummer · Senior Member

pinkchip wrote:
I think there are several fears.

1. I am a fraud and if I don't always sound like I know how to get and stay sober, I am a sham on multiple levels.
2. I may relapse and become a retread and suffer through strings of rehabs. That has been terrible to watch. Plus now I am scared of drugs more seeing what they do and knowing I'm eligible and could be one back injury away from the start of a sneaky horrible opiate addiction.
3. I am put in a position over clients and that messes with me to think I am not like them, but like I said above, I also don't want to be like them in some ways.

Faith might be to stop over thinking and have God lay out the message. It might also be to separate professional competence from program esh. It also needs to be delve into AA harder because if not, I will be running on empty. And while some don't care for Alanon talk on this board, that may be part of me getting stronger to work with others. Dunno. That's just what I can come up with at this time.

Fraud! I love that! I was a total fraud and that being found out was the horror of step 4 and 5. But I really was a fraud.

i don't know you, but I am thinking you may consider doing an inventory of this situation. It seems like a big deal. Worthy of the time and effort.

You brought up one of the things I see in the recovery industry.... The relapse Phenomenon.. The expectation of relapse. I don't even like to talk about it much. To me there is no relapse, aside of cancer patients. We just drink again. Cancer comes back without consent. We just pick up a drink. My mother died of cancer. It came back. She did not go buy it and drink it.

On the other hand... The idea of being recovered. Having it settled. It is absolutely real and no need to live in fear and fear of being in a recovery clinic cycle. the big book tells us we can be recovered. I really don't think about drinking. You out there that deep big book readers, I think the message is that our HP gives us the defense against the first drink. And as part of turning my life over to my HP, and getting that defense against the first drink, I live a life recovered from my previously hopeless state.

I just don't ever have to drink again. No fear involved. The confidence in the power source for my recovery is a confidence in God, not me. I'm powerless. So it isn't a cocky thing.

And as my favorite part goes..... There is one who has all power, may you find him now. :)

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Read the directions for steps 10 through 12 PC...You'll probably find your answer there.

We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality - safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us.

BB pg 85

As long as we follow a few simple rules.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Hey PC, ... when I read all that was being exchanged between you and Stepman, I wanted to jump right in with my 2 cents worth, but knew it would only serve to alienate one or both of you, not worth it ... and there was mention of 'humility' and I thought, wow, ... the pot is calling the kettle black here ... humility was/is a hard lesson for me ... tolerance and holding my tongue was never my strong point, but in this program, I've learned enough to at least try and practice what I preach, as it were ...

It takes a big person to admit when they are wrong, and to set things right ... I am proud and grateful to see this thread ... it shows that we never stop learning no matter how much we think we know already ... and for that, I am grateful to see that here ...

Let us never forget the power of 'pen and tongue' ... ... ... they can build one up, or destroy everything that is good ... just say'n ... ... ...

Love you guys and God Bless,
Pappy

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

What a great learning experience for me. It's wonderful to see people like you leading by example for me. Thanks.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Another fear is that no matter how much I achieve or do better or stay sober, my parents will still be more proud of my sisters. This is not the case and it's tired old garbage I worked on in my 4th step, not to mention therapy. Yet it wasn't "removed" as I'd ideally hoped but substantially lessened. I'm 41...and not the screw up black sheep for a while now but I know when I have the tantrum episodes that is exactly what I feel like. The same screw up role I nurtured for 36 years. I fall back into that wounded victim routine. I think getting right with God needs to overshadow that garbage. I also work Sundays now and can never go to church. That has messed up my spiritual connection some. I get to lead "spirituality group" instead. In essence, giving it away and stopping the process of connecting and recharging myself spiritually.

I like that quote also stepchild. I guess it's not even as much active relapse but going back to being that whiny loser that I was. I didn't fear it as much until daily all day long exposure to these clients whose families are literally being put through hell. In sum, it's bringing up more issues. I do need to inventory more, strengthen my spiritual connection so I can stay of service--10 through 12 like you said.

Sober Strummer · Senior Member

PC

It just sounds like normal growth phases man. I have discovered ACOA. It is a supplemental program. You may consider it to augment your AA.

My parents were drunk most of my life. Dad was an asshole. Never pleased so I never had to worry about not being good enough. It was a lock, I never was. But had time for abusive treatment. But he is dead.

For perspective, at about my 15 year sober mark, my sponsor shared he uses ACOA material and has been to a few meetings. It is a coping mechanism for dealing with past parenting blunders or abuse. Not a sobriety program.

I have found some peace and release. I hope you do as well. It is a terrible burden to never be good enough. Sometimes we were abused and thought it was our fault, but it was not. It is typical male behavior to block out or minimize our childhood pain. But it comes back, with friends.

My AA did help me deal with those issues a bit. In doing the inventory, listing the "why" part of things led me to see quite a bit of my shame and guilt was false. So as far as things disturbing me spiritually, shaking up my sobriety, they were some of the sources of my AA inventory list.

The behavior you are experiencing to me sounds like triggering. Seeing your fears materialize thru events around you. But that does not have to be us. We have a God and a path, a way out. I really do think this is partly an outside issue.

I hope you can step back and inhale some peace. One emotional slip does not mean the house is on fire.

I'm glad you shared and threw that vampire out into the light of day. You are not alone. ACOA has many feeling the same things. For me, part of sobriety was feeling things, feeling things in new depths, remembering things, things I had to resolve.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

It was having to come out as being gay, then having an emotional breakdown of sorts in my 20s (actually that all occurred at the same time as coming out), then alcoholism festered and grew from there. Like I was constantly doing or being or making them accept stuff about me they didn't deserve want or bargain for. My parents were not alcoholics or abusive persay. It's how I interpreted events and struggles in my life to become a self loathing self pitying drunk. I have had to rewrite my interpretation of things to be sober and stop that crap from replaying constantly. 90 percent of the time I'm using my program to be a better person. You see what happens when I slip.

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

Yes Mark - acoa has been such a rock for me this past year. It used to be adult children of alcoholics but has been revamped to be adult child of dysfunctional families - of which you have earned your seat. The board on MIP is active and thriving. There is a very close family of recovering people there, some alcoholics, some alanons, and a lot of strictly ACA's. For me, it wasn't fun being there for a while. You've already experienced that in Alanon and have stuck it out and gotten over the hump with that there. It will feel the same in ACA and then all of a sudden wooosh it can rocket your recovery to a whole new level. I went in all the programs kicking and screaming - ACA was different because I felt like people there were just there to complain, so my kicking and screaming was not for my own stuff, but for how it was done, how different it was from AA etc - much like my issue's with alanon that you watched. Trying to get everyone to do it the AA way was my kicking and screaming. Then I backed down and listened for a while (thanks again Jerry) and did some regular meetings and viola - I got over myself and my ego and became a part of - and it truly has been a beautiful thing. It is there I get the give and take that is so necessary to a balance in recovery.

**Please if you're new - and trying to sober up and reading this thread- do not think or use this paragraph as an excuse to quit AA - ACA is not a program of recovery for alcoholism and I needed AA to shake out my addiction so I could go deeper in ACA. My sponsor had me wait to even step foot in the door until I was 1 yr sober.

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

Also - PC - I've read a lot about your parents and the perfectionism and all that stuff... you did not grow up feeling accepted exactly as you are without constant guilt and shame. That is what is addressed in ACA - not the alcoholism so much. Just like in AA - after a while the alcoholism isn't addressed so much but the other issues of selfish and self centered living.

Sober Strummer · Senior Member

There is lots of ACOA info out there. all very helpful. it is a great concept. it has been helping me understand why i think and feel the way i do. it helps pit some of my crazy alcoholic thnking into perspective. I am 100% behind the big book. the Big Red Book is in addition to for my other issues.

This paragraph really speaks to me. It seems to have a few items you mentioned.

We lived life from the standpoint of victims. Having an overdeveloped sense of responsibility, we preferred to be concerned with others rather than ourselves. We got guilt feelings when we stood up for ourselves rather than giving in to others. Thus, we became reactors, rather than actors, letting others take the initiative. We were dependent personalities, terrified of abandonment, willing to do almost anything to hold on to a relationship in order not to be abandoned emotionally. Yet we kept choosing insecure relationships because they matched our childhood relationship with alcoholic or dysfunctional parents.

The World Service Organization web site for Adult Children of Alcoholics has lots of info.

From the website.

www.adultchildren.org/

www.adultchildren.org/lit/ComLine/April-2012.pdf

Adult Children of Alcoholics
World Service Organization, Inc.

The Steps

We admitted we were powerless over the effects of alcoholism or other family dysfunction, that our lives had become unmanageable.

Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understand God.

Made a searching and fearless moral inventory
of ourselves.

Admitted to God, to our selves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings.

Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Continued to take personal inventory and, when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understand God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry it out.

Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others who still suffer, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

That resonates with me sober strummer. Dependency and fear of abandonment were HUGE issues. And yes, I did used to do anything to cling to horrible relationships out of that fear. That included me carrying on with another alcoholic for 7 years and turning myself into an even worse drunk so I could be taken care of and not grow up. The relationship I have now is so so so much healthier. Having started when I had 2 years sober and was not such a needy hot mess.

My parents are not lovey huggy types. They value education and achievement. So..other relationships I had were really emotional needy prior to AA because I constantly was looking for others to give me unconditional love while I hated myself. It never worked and I just drank more and more. I did learn through people in AA to love myself more and relationships improved consequently.

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

Pinky - remember drinking was but a symptom. I find out why I have ALL the symptoms I do in ACA.