So I am eight months sober, I got to meetings at least 4 days a week, I have a sponsor/home group, I worked the steps, I have been having a very hard time the last few months. I can't seem to stop crying, can't focus, don't want to get up. I see a psychologist too - which I didn't tell my sponsor as she doesn't approve of outside help or medications. After talking to my psych this week, my psych felt I needed some more help, i was having passive suicidal thoughts. She had me check into a crisis treatment center. When I told my sponsor she went off on me, she wanted me to leave and told me I was the most selfish I had ever been, all my problems are rooted in ego and self and that I had no business being there. How dare I be so arrogant. I'm pretty hard on myself in general and this just crushed me, I know I'm selfish I know I need to help others, I just can't seem to function. I ended up checking out last night and now I'm at home. I guess I don't know what to do, I want to stay sober and work a good program, I want to help others, I just can't seem to get out from under this crushing self loathing. My psych feels I should change my home group and sponsor to find someone who is more supportive of getting help for my depression and my gut tells me she is right but i also doubt myself so much, I feel like maybe my sponsor is right and if I could just be less selfish I would get better, i guess Im just reaching out for support right now, I feel pretty sick.
Welcome to MIP akchick...Glad you found us here. They make it pretty clear in the Big Book we shouldn't shy away from outside help...
Now about health: A body badly burned by alcohol does not often recover overnight nor do twisted thinking and depression vanish in a twinkling. We are convinced that a spiritual mode of living is a most powerful health restorative. We, who have recovered from serious drinking, are miracles of mental health. But we have seen remarkable transformations in our bodies. Hardly one of our crowd now shows any mark of dissipation.
But this does not mean that we disregard human health measures. God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds. Do not hesitate to take your health problems to such persons. Most of them give freely of themselves, that their fellows may enjoy sound minds and bodies. Try to remember that though God has wrought miracles among us, we should never belittle a good doctor or psychiatrist. Their services are often indispensable in treating a newcomer and in following his case afterward.
BB pg 133
They also tell us......
Selfishness - self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
BB pg 62
And we address that in the process of working the steps...Relying on a Power greater than ourselves...Rather than being self reliant.
It's only my opinion...But I think that's dangerous advice your sponsor is giving you.....And if I could suggest anything...It would be looking into both of those avenues...Seeking professional help...As well as a new attempt through the steps with someone that has a different approach...A little more understanding...Again...I'm glad you are here.
Thanks for the reply. I am thinking the same thing, I know I have a lot to work on but I also know that I may need help that I'm not getting, I guess I don't trust my thinking and so i want to be careful that I am making sound decision and not because I am resentful.
I think it's good to play it safe...Use every tool we can. Trust in your HP and keep moving forward...Most importantly...Don't pick up the first drink. I hope you'll hang around here...Keep us updated on how you're doing...Maybe help someone out that is just getting started.
I hope you take advantage of all of your medical options. Your doctor is trying to help save your life. Ideas of suicide and depression are not to be toyed with.
Your sponsor sounds in need of replacement ASAP.
Your AA program is a tool for you to use. Your doctor has additional tools as well.
Please take care of yourself the very best you can.
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"I spent a lifetime in hell and it only took me twelve steps to get to heaven."
"Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you."
Thank you all, I am finding another sponsor as we speak who will be more supportive of my struggles. I just hope I don't get ostracized from my home group for this. I truly believe in the value of AA but I also acknowledge I may need more help right now. Thank you for all your support.
As sober members of AA, we can offer to help the newcomer by showing them how we worked the steps of AA. But we are not doctors, and even if some of us ARE doctors, we are not YOUR doctor. When any of us have issues that require the attention of a doctor, we should go to the doctor, whether that is a broken leg or clinical depression.
If I can share a bit of my own experience:
1. I learned that It's important to tell my doctors that I am a recovering alcoholic, and just as important, I have to tell them what that means! It means that I cannot safely take medication that gets me feeling 'high' because it can easily trigger the craving that is a part of alcoholism and it can lead to a relapse. If this type of medication is necessary (like when I had major surgery during m sobriety) I have to take steps to deal with that by doing things like giving the meds to someone else who doles them out to me only as prescribed. And if there is any alternative to this type of medication, that's what should be tried first.
At first, I had just assumed that any good doctor would have at least this much basic understanding of alcoholism and addiction, but you'd be surprised how many otherwise very good doctors really don't know the first thing about it. It is MY responsibility to make sure they know about my alcoholism. I've had to tell doctors "There's no point in you performing this surgery to fix my medical problems if I'm just going to end up face down in the gutter in a couple of months because I relapsed due to my alcoholism being triggered by poorly managed pain meds".
2. About twelve years ago, when I had 13 years of sobriety, I started feeling terrible. It seemed to me that the cause of this was entirely external, that all of the good things in my life (except physical sobriety) had ended and it just seemed plain to me that nothing good would ever come along again, and the rest of my life would be just 'killing time'. I wasn't thinking suicidal thoughts (yet) but it was kinda like when you start watching a movie that seems great at first, then it changes and it's not the movie you were expecting, and you just don't want to bother seeing the rest of it and you really don't care if you ever find out how it all turns out.... that's how I felt about my entire life.... After about a year and half of this I was visiting my doctor about some unrelated minor physical stuff and something I said got the doctors attention and she began asking questions and it all came out.
You guessed it, I was suffering from a rather serious depression. My doctor was shocked that I had let it go so long without telling anyone, but the truth is that I had no idea that the problem was depression until suddenly it all became very obvious. After some discussion and consultation in which I made sure again that the doctors understood about my alcoholism and addiction history, I started treatment for it. And yes, this did include some medication. And no, it did not make me feel 'high'. I also stepped up my meeting attendance with a new 90 meetings in 90 days routine, stepped up my one-on-one meetings with my sponsor, and got a therapist (first time for me) who specialized in treating people recovering from both alcoholism and depression. In my case, I was able to end the medical aspect of the treatment pretty quickly and I haven't had to take any meds for anything for many years now. I'm still very active in meetings, I sponsor new people, and I meet with my sponsor regularly. I'll be celebrating 25 years of sobriety in a couple of weeks.
Some conditions do require outside help. In my case, the outside help was what I needed to allow me to take action and get 'over the hump' and back into the center of AA, back into action, and back into life. But again, we're not your doctor, so you should talk to your own doctor about all of this. Regarding the sponsor, it may be a good idea to look for someone who has successfully dealt with the same issues you are dealing with, in addition to having experience working the steps and recovering from alcoholism. I hope this helps.
-- Edited by davep12and12 on Wednesday 11th of December 2013 01:52:32 PM
Welcome to the board. I had a hard time finding someone to sponsor me. The one downside to AA is that there are a lot of sick people. Many have swapped drinking for controlling. I found out it's a pretty easy swap to do too - and got on that wagon for while. Thinking I was suppose to be the boss of my sponsee's and knew everything and could tell them what to do in any aspect of their life... marriages - kids - how to eat better - you name it. I was a know it all! But really - I was just still all yucky inside even though I wasn't drinking - and still couldn't love myself enough to just be okay with me - and others - exactly as they are. The cool thing about sponsorship is that we are not in charge, and we can't get anyone sober or make them drink either. That took A LOT of pressure off!! I didn't have to FIX THEM! God was going to do that??? YEAH! So once I had to just be okay enough with me to be okay enough with them, and then just show them how I was shown to work this program and leave the results to God - all of a sudden I was really feeling the benefits of the promises and all the good stuff. My life was no longer unmanageable because I wasn't trying to manage others... just be there with them... on the journey as trusted friends seeking a better life together.
We have a big clan of woman in our area who are still in the midst of trying to play God for each other and everyone else. I feel for them, and just love them through it today - because I don't really need them to be anything but who they are and where they are on God's path - and boy freedom from the bondage of self feels GOOD! We here at MIP can love you until you can love yourself too. The most loving choice you can make for YOU is to keep on doing something for your recovery every day. If that included outside help - then do it. We're here for you - standing next to you and can love you every step of the way (literally). I used this board as a sudo - sponsor for a good long time. I use all the boards now. What a gift. I can only imagine the joys yet to come as I see people like John, the owner of this site and others who use everything available to them for a better life and better world. Looks like you know in your heart you need more help than AA and that's just fine. Having a sponsor in my corner is the best and most loving decision I ever acted upon. I hope you will give yourself the best possible chances at a healthy life, and use all the tools available to you here, in the rooms and elsewhere if need be. You may be surprised at how working the steps with a sponsor who has that peace and serenity about them that comes from that loving relationship with a HP - can change your life and even irradiate the need for outside help... but if not... that doesn't mean you're doing it wrong either IMO. xxxx Keep us posted on your progress :)
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
Aloha and welcome to the board...the suggestions and reactions have been supportive and my experience has been having a sponsor that recommended that I find and use whatever was available to gain and maintain my sobriety. He also warned me never to get in the way of another persons recovery. He reminded me that our disease is one of the mind, body, spirit and emotions and that if I wasn't recovering on all 4 levels all at the same time I washn't recovering...Do what you have to do. In support (((((hugs)))))
glad yer finding another sponsor. the problem with sponsors like that is they have no clue about mental disorders yet know everything.
at this time, ya best be selfish!! ya gotta be selfish and get weller before you can be selfless and help others. we cant transmit something we don't have.
id like to see this sponsor in a psych ward with all the patients off their meds.
so many of us used alcohol as our medication and then when we got sober, wouldn't ya know it!! there truly were/are underlying issues outside help and meds were necessary to treat.
I was suicidal when I came to recovery (in 1989) .. had been for years. My sponsor told me about his suicidal thoughts and that they had taken a couple of years to subside.
I carried on and my deep depression and suicidal tendencies slowly left as time went by.
Today I only take a statin for elevated cholesterol and an aspirin for heart prevention.
I believe that once we medicate the symptoms that we can't fully treat the cause of our discomforts.
I believe that you are on the cusp of a big breakthrough and if you don't quit before the miracle happens that you will be amazed in your situation in the near future.
My recovery began in a spiritually based recovery home 90 day program and meds were not allowed nor needed.
It is your life and your recovery, I wish you the best.
so many of us used alcohol as our medication and then when we got sober, wouldn't ya know it!! there truly were/are underlying issues outside help and meds were necessary to treat.
This is such an important point. Having the disease of alcoholism doesn't mean you are immune to other diseases that may need treatment. Seriously, if you had diabetes, would your sponsor suggest that you didn't need insulin, you just needed AA? That's a really irresponsible attitude on her part.
Page 133, 2nd paragraph: "But this does not mean that we disregard human health measures. God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds. Do not hesitate to take your health problems to such persons. Most of them give freely of themselves, that their fellows may enjoy sound minds and bodies. Try to remember that though God has wrought miracles among us, we should never belittle a good doctor or psychiatrist. Their services are often indispensable in treating a newcomer and in following his case afterward."
__________________
"I spent a lifetime in hell and it only took me twelve steps to get to heaven."
"Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you."
Thank all of you for this thread. This shows when a crisis occurs that needs answers quickly there are those willing to jump in fast and do anything possible to help. Again, thank you.-'H8r
((((akchick))))
Wow, what a fruit loop your sponsor is! I don't care how long she has been sober, just add milk, and crunch, crunch, crunch.
Please do some research by reading the AA brochure about how to find a sponsor. It says in there that sponsors are not supposed to give you any advice about medicine. There is a great site which gives tips on this. They also give red flags to look out for while you are doing so and what you said happened with your sponsor was one of those flags. Sponsors are not medical doctors. They are not trained to treat other alcoholics in the capacity your sponsor thought she was doing. That is a control thing with her and I have read oodles of carp on sites about sponsors telling their sponsees to go off of their anti-depressants and some took their advice and some actually committed suicide after they did. I think what could be happening is that some alcoholics feel out of control in their own lives during active drinking and when they get some sobriety under their belt they want to control not only their own lives but others' lives as well beyond what they should be doing as a sponsor which is helping you with the steps.
I hope that you realize that you have control of yourself and your life more than you think you do. Look how long you have stayed sober. Although AA, your sponsor, Higher Power, have helped you, you are the one that chose not to drink all those days. I'll tell you what...I felt the same way you did for so long about myself and uncertainty and still do at times. But I can feel really really great about myself because I have not been drinking for several months now and that in itself makes me feel so much more confident than I have ever felt in my life.
Please separate you and your own sobriety and what all you have going for you and your sponsor's (or ex-sponsor's), your homegroup's, or "John Doe's" opinion, as nothing matters more right now than you doing what is right for you and that is staying sober.
I just cringed when I read your post. I hope that you do not allow that "sponsor" to taint your view of AA and discourage you. You are not "selfish" because you want to help yourself prevent yourself from killing yourself and you have a sponsor who told you to stop seeking professional help, stop being so "selfih" and depend on "her" for that????? (crunch, crunch, crunch...). How dare she! Gotta stop here, because I just went off my medication for depression --which was MY Choice--however, I am finding myself getting upset more easily, and if I keep on, I'm going to need professional help. Please keep us posted on how you are doing. I'm really concerned about you.
BTY
Welcome to MIP akchick, ... glad you found us ... many great shares here already so I'm just going to say 'stick around, it does get better' even though that may be hard to see right now ...
Love ya and God Bless, Pappy
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
There are just as many ways to cope with/treat depression as there are levels. There are, as well, many other ways to become sober/addiction free than AA. Some can simply share their feelings during during depression with someone. Others pray. And others may take prescription drugs short term. Still....others NEED stronger meds or meds for their lifetime. AA is only one means to sobriety. I know of those who just quit, on their own, without benefit of AA. Some replaced their "habit" with other routines that were non threating to either their physical or mental health. Again there are those who prayed and prayed and prayed. You are individual! What works for me, may not work for you! It is up to each individual to discern what is the best course of action(s) to take for his/her mental and physical welfare. I'm in agreement with dropping her as your sponsor. I do believe AA is beneficial. I've met and know wonderful people in this program that know 'outside' help can also beneficial. Welcome and I hope you return.
-- Edited by learning on Wednesday 11th of December 2013 11:37:53 PM
If there were so many other ways then AA wouldn't have been needed in the first place.
The newcomers don't know what's best for them, they just want the pain to stop. Knowing what was best for me got me here.
There is a young fellow in our area that attended meetings for a while then disappeared. He hung himself last Saturday in his apartment.
I do believe AA is beneficial too .. magnitudes more beneficial than other treatments for an Alcoholic of my type.
All the best.
Bob R
Hi Bob. Yes, AA does have a much better track record of success for recovery from alcoholism than other methods that people have tried. The comments above are discussing how to deal with other issues besides alcoholism, which will often require other forms of treatment. AA does not claim to be the right treatment for conditions other than alcoholism. And the quote at the bottom of your comment is saying that people with mental disorders can recover from alcoholism in AA if they have the ability to be honest, it's not saying that AA will successfully treat issues other than alcoholism.
-- Edited by davep12and12 on Thursday 12th of December 2013 03:12:16 PM
There are, as well, many other ways to become sober/addiction free than AA.
I can only speak for myself learning...But I sure didn't find them. I truly believe if you are the type of alcoholic they describe in the Big Book...This one...
But what about the real alcoholic? He may start off as a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink.
BB pg 21
Which is what I am...That I was suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience could conquer. That I needed to experience an entire psychic change to recover. AA's 12 steps is the only thing I've seen that offers such a solution. It's worked for millions and it's world wide. They talk about trying to find an easier softer way....For this real alcoholic....AA was the easier softer way. It worked for me.
davep12and12 wrote: And the quote at the bottom of your comment is saying that people with mental disorders can recover from alcoholism in AA if they have the ability to be honest, it's not saying that AA will successfully treat issues other than alcoholism.
If you believe the statement you made above then you are missing the greatest gifts that 12 Steps of AA has to offer.....
If you believe the statement you made above then you are missing the greatest gifts that 12 Steps of AA has to offer.....
All the best.
Bob R
Please be careful with statements like that, Bob. That's the kind of thing that can lead some new AA members to think they can rely on AA for treating things that have nothing to do with alcoholism and that actually require outside professional medical treatment.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, that you may just be trying to point out that living the principles of the steps in AA can often result in far more changes and improvements in our life and our entire way of thinking than we ever dared hope for when we got here, and I know from my own experience over the years in AA that this is true.
But it doesn't do AA or the new member any favors if we suggest that AA can be relied on to treat serious conditions that it was never intended to treat. AA is an excellent way to recover from alcoholism. And yes, as a result of that, it often has additional benefits. But it isn't a treatment for everything.
-- Edited by davep12and12 on Thursday 12th of December 2013 04:45:30 PM
I feel the same way Bob - we are so blessed to be alive today and in the midst of such a powerful force of hope for those suffering. I know I should be dead 100 times over... what a joy to be with so many people who care and are brave enough to be a part of this and keep trying to do the best they know how. All the best to you too. xxoxoxoxooxxo
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
I finally got so sick that I had nowhere else to go but to AA and read HOW IT WORKS .. where it says "half measures availed us nothing", "we stood at the turning point" and "we asked HIS protection with complete abandon".
Instead of saying to myself "God can't do that" I finally began to man-up and say "God, I'm going to do this and I'm sure I'll need help". And I got help.
And when I say I'm going to do this I don't mean quit drinking. I quit drinking in 1989 and haven't desired a drink/drug for decades. When I say "I'm going to do this" I mean BE RESTORED TO SANITY which seemed like a pie-in-the-sky dream in the beginning. I am being restored to sanity by NOT doing what I want to do and doing what I am told to do by the good oldtimers ... what it says in HOW IT WORKS
I don't particularly care on an internet site if someone disagrees with me but I don't like the newcomers being told that "God can't/doesn't do that". You tell God He can't do that !
I don't need the benefit of anyones doubt. I'm doing better than I ever could have imagined and I'm taking full advantage of God's offer .... I hope that all the AAs do.
I was a psyche ward/ suicide attempts/ deeply disturbed hopeless helpless drunk/addict that God and AA are restoring .... without meds or the psychiatrists I used to frequent.
Anyone who wants to talk about this in a PM is welcome to contact me.
All the best.
Bob R
-- Edited by 2granddaughters on Thursday 12th of December 2013 06:19:16 PM
I am a bit surpised at the comments of your sponsor. On the face of it, that seems OTT and you sponsor sounds like a controlling type. On the othe side of that she has the benefit of knowing you better than we do.
Some good passages from the big book have been quoted above. A couple of others spring to mind. Para phrased from memory " As we straighten out spiritually, be begin to straighten out mentally and phsyically"
and talking about our past use of doctors;
" We know but few instances where we have given these doctors a fair break. We have seldom told them the whole truth nor have we followed their advice. Unwilling to be honest with these sympathetic men, we were honest with no one else. Small wonder many in the medical profession have a low opinion of alcoholics and their chance for recovery!
One thing I can guarantee is that the modern alcoholic is no different to the old one.
Getting sober is painful. Pain is the touchstone of all spiritual growth. Without pain we don't grow. In other words, we can't get sober without pain, so if a pain free sobriety is your wish, the spiritual path is not the one for you. Whenever I found myself in pain, prayer brought the solution.
However, if you honestly believe there is more to it, my suggestion is to find a good doctor or therapist who is well versed in alcoholics and their devious ways, and be totally honest with him/her. As Bob said above effective treatment does not always involve medication, and having 8 months sober gives a much better chance of therapy working.
Pray for the honesty and courage to deal with this. Ask for direction and it will come. Try to honestly decide if an easier softer way is what you are really looking for or not.
I heard a lady speak at a meeting the other day. She had been sober for 6 months and had recently become pregnant. The first 6 months of her sobriety had included an anti depressant medication and she was now working with her doctor to get off this as she did not want to expose her baby to the drug. Here's the rub. Sobriety had become painful again. She concluded that she was now feeling all the crap she should have felt in the first few months. She did not suceed in avoiding the pain, only postponing it.
So, in the end, it's between you and the God of your understanding. Rigorous honesty. The right path will become clear.
I stand by what I said that if you (or anyone who happens to be reading this post) has depression to the point where you are considering killing yourself, please please seek medical treatment and take their advice about medications. And again, people have killed themselves after they went off anti-depressants after their sponsor has told them to. Sponsors do not always "know more" just because they have been in the program and have longer sobriety time. I will never do "everything I am told to do" in AA if someone tells me something which I know could end up causing me more problems and pain and I don't care if they have 20 years or more of sobriety time. And if someone has an issue with that or gets mad at me, then that is their problem, not mine.
I love AA too, and am glad that there are those who don't need anything else but AA to stay on the road to good health, happiness and serenity. However, there are those who have mental issues that we on this board and in the meetings cannot possibly understand and we shouldn't advise to "just work the steps", "just pray" when they are dealing with severe depression. I just would be very sad if something someone said like that resulted in another tragedy.
Recovered or recovering aa members are qualified through experience for one thing and one thing only. How to get and stay sober.
At anything else we are amateurs. Where did your sponser get their medical degree?
Outside help is fine. Take it. Sometimes a higher power presents themselves as in a professional providing professional services.
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It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got. BB
