Spiritually Blind

AlcoHater · Senior Member

Spiritually Blind

Angell · Senior Member

AlcoHater wrote:
@PythonPappy:"...we will never understand the power we recieve...". I can't percieve any power granted from this. However, this does not diminish the effectiveness the program has to carry out the main objective. (main objective=avoidance of alcohol.)

-- Edited by AlcoHater on Sunday 28th of July 2013 10:55:55 PM

I certainly understand your use of 'avoidance of alcohol' as AA's main objective, after all our primary purpose is to carry the message. But on pg 45 of the Big Book we find, "Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main objective is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself that will solve your problem."

I am not adding this to be argumentative, just to share a different perspective. Oh, and from MIP: http://aa.activeboard.com/t50619497/aa-objective/

-- Edited by Angell on Sunday 28th of July 2013 11:41:54 PM

Mr_David · MIP Old Timer

The term 'Spiritual Experience' is an expression widely used throughout A.A. -even though I prefer the words 'momentary realizations' myself. Basically: It's a sudden change in behavior that was brought about by some extraordinary experience, nothing more. Some people refer to them as pink cloud moments.

A 'spiritual awakening' on the other hand is completely different. It's a gradual shift in thinking, which can transform even the most hardest of critics into fully recovered alcoholics. It may take days, weeks, months or even longer, and usually occurs after we do step 12. But again, it involves some form of psychic change -personal or not. As a reference point, I think it's something we need to explore after we spend some time in the program. Once we get a basic idea on how the program works, we can then decide what spirituality means to us.

Here's a basic idea: When the final chapter is written, with all its twists and turns, we can finally understand what A.A. meant by the words 'spiritually awakened'. It's the part of us that 'experience' something far greater than anyone could imagine. I am constantly asking myself why this experience is accompanied by such a profound feeling of joy. The only possibly answer is also the simplest one as well: It's from the experience itself. Call it, an understanding so profound that is seems transcend time and distance. It's what I refer to as the 'spirituality factor' as laid out by the 12 steps. Once we 'experience' this level of joy, there's usually no turning back. We finally see how love, truth and justice can become the real and eternal things in life. After that, nothing seems to compare.

There's no way we can obtain that level of understanding without some form of psychic change. By our consciousness alone, we're still left to our own devices. But when we incorporate the 12 steps into our daily routine, we can experience something far greater. It brings about the much needed clarity that all recovering alcoholics long for. That supreme experience, which all joy seekers yearn for is nothing short of miraculous, but again, it must start with us, period.

The 'spiritual awakening', described in step 12, is brought on by constant stream of sober ideals, or as I call it: Aha! Moments. It's then we begin to explore the spiritual realms like never before. The seeds of those experiences will then deepen your level of consciousness into something more profoundly wonderful. And it can only grow from there. Basically: It's how we come to believe. I hope it has a happy ending just for you.

-- Edited by Mr_David on Monday 29th of July 2013 02:12:39 AM

AlcoHater · Senior Member

The best definition of "spiritual experience" I've found is "a happenstance outside the five senses, the mind, and the intellect." I can honestly say that this has never happened to me, and I can also honestly say, probably never will. I can't seem to put myself in a place to accomplish this. I also can't seem to change anything. This no longer bothers me, but it can, at times, be frustrating. I read/hear others talk of these experiences, but to me, they sound unreal. Does this mean I'm discouraged? Not at all. Because whether they are sincere or delusional, if that's what keeps another sober, then so be it. Some recent posts, describing what it was like, are excellent deterrents, reminders of the main objective. Avoiding the element that jailed me and destroyed me MUST be my primary focus. Reading the horror stories on this board is a definite plus.

Angell · Senior Member

As a point of interest only: Eastern thought considers six senses rather than five, including the mind as the sixth. I found it interesting that Western thought separates them.

May I ask though, how would you be conscious of an experience outside of the senses, the mind and the intellect? I have had spiritual experiences but I am aware that I have through my senses (more precisely I would call them the aggregates) and cannot imagine awareness of the experience independent of our sense organs.

AlcoHater · Senior Member

@Angell: You've had spiritual experiences? Please describe them.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

A true 'spiritual experience' can only occur when you have a real, true, 'higher power' ... ... ... A power that you sincerely believe is there, in spirit, beside you ... without this power, then we tend to credit ourselves for our successes and accomplishments ... we need to have a power beyond our capabilities to attribute our 'well being' to ...

How long have you been without a drink ??? ... do you feel you did this all by yourself ??? ... just exactly where did you get the power to NOT drink ???

Some day soon, provided you remain sober, it will slap you up side the head just what is happening to you ... and you will come to realize the full gravity of the things that you are experiencing ... Most of us, me included, went for a long time searching for an explanation to the things we were experiencing ... that's a waste of time ... we will never fully understand the power we receive nor just how we get it ... but when we use 'blind faith' in the beginning, it just comes ... ... ...

Love ya man,

Pappy

AlcoHater · Senior Member

OOPS! Looks like I mistitled this one, I looked up "spiritual blindness" and the definition is not what I described. The title of this post should be "Spiritually Dead". That definition is a more apt description.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

I tried everything to stop drinking ... and at 55, I finally surrendered to my higher power ... to me?, ... He is God ... when I did step 3 this time, I meant every bit of it ... I was a few months in when I was driving to a meeting 12 mi away, and a God I never knew moved into the car with me ... I very nearly wrecked my car ... my whole body went suddenly tingly, like the blood flow returning after being cut off ...

The overwhelming sense and feeling, like none I'd ever experienced, that God was sitting next to me was nothing short of incredible ... I will never ever forget the spot in the road I was when this occurred ... others noticed that 'something' had changed in me ... I have prayed others could experience what I did ... but many simply refuse to believe it, they feel if they can't understand it, it must not exist ... sad ...

We usually don't experience something so dramatic ... we usually only see small portions of the so-called 'spiritual awakening' ... and for some of us, it is the accumulation of small unexplained events that lead us to our faith ... for me, it was quick, and dramatic ...

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Also AlcoHater, ...

When my sponsor asked me to pray to God, at first I refused, I said I wasn't going to be a hypocrite ... He said that that, had nothing to do with it ... it was the 'action' that I was taking that was going to cause all the things to happen that I never knew were going to happen ...

So I did ... My sponsor also said that when I prayed to God, that God would take my 'relationship with Him' and turn it into what it ought to be ... and it became so ...

Angell · Senior Member

AlcoHater wrote:
@Angell: You've had spiritual experiences? Please describe them.

To what end? I am not averse to sharing an experience or two, but I am curious. I suppose I could go ahead and answer first and then discover why eh? :)

During detox, my heart stopped for six minutes. When I came to I had lost the obsession and even desire for a drink. It has never returned. For some, that would constitute a spiritual experience. For others, there is this:

In 1982, four years sober, I got a long distance call from a friend in the program who needed help. He called before he drank, but the obsession was upon him and he was losing the battle and begging me to help him. I was over a thousand miles away. When I got off the phone with him I asked my higher power for direction. I was asked in return what I would be willing to do. I'd help if I could, but I'm so far away. I was told to step out in faith. I had no idea how to do that... and finally decided to head in my friends direction. I had no car and so I began walking. I arrived at his house ten minutes later. Neither of us drank that night.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Alcohater, my most profound spiritual experience has been a process evolving. It started with a drunken car crash that woke me up to the need to change....seriously change. From there, my journey in AA has been one GIANT spiritual experience.

So....I would suggest that whatever woke you up to the fact that you needed to change....THAT WAS a spiritual experience and you are still having one.

Yes, people do talk about "white light" experiences and what not...BUT - that does not mean you have not, or are not having your own spiritual experience. I see you questioning and wondering and challenging your ideas here on this board. To me...it looks like there is spiritual growth.

So my main point is - you are not missing out as much as you think and your spiritual soundness and growth with just continue..

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

WOW, ... great sharing everyone ... I'm lovin' it!!!

Col · Senior Member

I feel as though I had a spiritual experience the last night that I drank. It's what got me here, and then to AA. I was sitting in my kitchen with a knife in one hand, my sleeve rolled up and a few empty bottles of wine in front of me. To say I was drunk was an understatement- I was in my usual late night/early morning oblivion. The night was just like hundreds of others I had experienced. The difference was that over the course of the prior year I had fought hard against my alcoholism, and I had come to realize that I was defeated- down for the count. I did not understand that I was an alcoholic, nor did I understand what that was. I saw no solutions or hope. My thoughts of suicide had become more real and had solidified to a real plan. I sat there drinking, crying, writing notes to my mother and landlord. I hung the dress I was to be buried in on the door, with instructions of how I'd like to be buried. I paused to pour the last glass of wine and it hit me- THIS is insanity. THIS is not how I want to go out- alone at 3am surrounded by empty bottles. Out of nowhere I felt a need to pray. I did, and I felt the presence of my HP with a firm, quiet voice that came from a place within me I cannot describe. This 'voice' from within spoke one very simple sentence- that's it. I never drank again, nor have I come realistically close to. It gave me the strength and blind faith to not drink one day at a time. Aside from that I would say 'spiritual awakening' would describe my journey thusfar. It's very, very slow. Some days I do not feel a string connection to my HP... But I find that's when I'm either not seeking it, or expecting a 'WOW' moment like the one I described above. It's a process. For me, although I feel like my HP is with me always, prayer does not come naturally to me. It's something I actively rebelled against for most of my life. It does take practice, and at times it feels empty or false. I simply do it because there are moments where I am positive God is with me directly, or working through others in my life. Those moments carry me through my moments of disappointment or doubt. Faith.

RubyTues · MIP Old Timer

So needed to hear that Col, great post.

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Wonderful post Col. Not something I have experienced personally, but I have met many who report similar experiences. For me the term "spiritually dead" is too string a term. Spiritually asleep would be more like it. And God came to me through more conventional AA means. That is to say as THE RESULT of working all 12 steps.

An agnostic to start with, I took step 2 to mean that I was willing to accept spritual help - i.e could the same power that keeps you sober, work for me too? Once I decided that I was willing to believe that was at least a possibility, I made a decision (step 3) to do whatever was necessary to connect me with the Power. What started with a small child like prayer turned into an honest desire to work all the steps and I seemed to be given the requisite will to tackle even the steps I found a bit daunting. So straight away I was into step four, followed the next day with 5. After this I re read the book around step 5 and understood, for the first time, the truth in it. I was actually beginning to have a spiritual experience at that time. For the first time I felt an awareness of a higher power.

I continued with the steps and as I tried to develop this way of living in all areas of my life I began behaving differently (in a good way) without any conscious effort. My nature had changed. I had undergone a profound psychic change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism.

Of myself I am nothing. This change was not my achievement. There was no psychology involved. I simply began acting and reacting intuitively in a way so contrary to my earlier character that sometimes I would pause in amazement and ask "How did that happen? That's not me!

The truth is that it was a miracle, or series of miracles. The obsession with alcohol was taken away and has not returned. I see the world through new eyes. This is the experience of zillions of recovered alcoholics, but I have yet to meet a single one that got all this without FIRST doing the work.

God bless,
MikeH

AlcoHater · Senior Member

Hi, folks. Sorry I'm late replying. Looonnnnnng day at work. Okay, first, @Angell. 1) I did not come up with the "outside the realms of 5 senses, etc."analogy myself. I had to look it up. 2) Are you trying to tell me you traversed (astrally projected? teleported?) 1000 miles to a a suffering friend? That's the most numinous thing I've heard yet! @ Everyone else: I've done the 12 steps twice, and use them to the best of my ability in my daily routine. It's just that I'm not able to percieve "miracles", "blessings", and other trappings of metaphysical jargon. As you can also probably tell, I've also not recieved "visions" and "white light moments" like so many others. I AM NOT TRYING TO BE ARGUMENTIVE in any case, just curious why some get these "cosmic experiences" while others don't, that's all.

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

AH, you've probably seen appendix II below, but it might be relavent. The only other comment I can make is that Jung referred not only to a spiritual solution to alcoholism but also a thing he calls the protective wall of human community, either one being more than mere rationalism. I don't know about human community being much use as people have feet of clay and I have seen many come unstuck as other mere humans fail to meet expectations.

But on the prayer front, one bit of very good advice my sponsor gave me as I was starting out to try the prayer thing was to look for the results. When I started looking it wasn't long before I began seeing On the cosmic stuff, I didn't experience that. But changes, that I only noticed in hind sight (the educational variety) did happen and were not engineered by me.

"The terms spiritual experience and spiritual awakening are used many times in this book which, upon careful reading, shows that the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms.
Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous. In the first few chapters a number of sudden revolutionary changes are described. Though it was not our intention to create such an impression, many alcoholics have nevertheless concluded that in order to recover they must acquire an immediate and overwhelming God-consciousness followed at once by a vast change in feeling and outlook.
Among our rapidly growing membership of thousands of alcoholics such transformations, though frequent, are by no means the rule. Most of our experiences are what the psychologist William James calls the educational variety because they develop slowly over a period of time. Quite often friends of the newcomer are aware of the difference long before he is himself. He finally realizes that he has undergone a profound alteration in his reaction to life; that such a change could hardly have been brought about by himself alone. What often takes place in a few months could seldom have been accomplished by years of self discipline. With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves.
Most of us think this awareness of a Power greater than ourselves is the essence of spiritual experience. Our more religious members call it God-consciousness.
Most emphatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover, provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial.
We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable. "

Angell · Senior Member

AlcoHater wrote:
Hi, folks. Sorry I'm late replying. Looonnnnnng day at work. Okay, first, @Angell. 1) I did not come up with the "outside the realms of 5 senses, etc."analogy myself. I had to look it up. 2) Are you trying to tell me you traversed (astrally projected? teleported?) 1000 miles to a a suffering friend? That's the most numinous thing I've heard yet!

I have no idea how I got there. I've actually never told anyone that before now; in fact, I had to go tell my wife after that post because she didn't know and no one gets to know something about me that she doesn't know. I know what it sounds like, so I have a habit of keeping such things to myself... fortunately, there's nothing more bizarre than that. But no, I was there in the flesh. Started walking, rounded a bend and I was on his street.

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

The idea of a HP for me as an atheist/agnostic/I don't really care or even want to think about it - person - was just beyond what I thought would EVER EVER EVER help me to the degree it does today. But the key to becoming my own loving parent, and therefor better to me, relies almost entirely on my HP today - with a bit of action on my part. : )

That HP is still something that baffles me, but it doesn't really matter. When I became miserable enough in my own insane thoughts and behaviors and mental bashing's on myself - like the one you have described in your other posts - I really had to be open and willing to at least think about it for a moment.

The HP thing doesn't need to stand in our way so much. I made it such a big deal. I wouldn't go to meetings where too many people talked about God and prayed. If they said the Lords prayer I just rolled my eyes.

Finally I realized I didn't need to be that mean to myself. All that negativity and crap. All of a sudden it hit me like 1000 bricks in the face, but in a very small voice: Could you be wrong?

That began the road to willingness for me to begin to say - "Ya, I don't know what's out there or what God is." And they said to me: "You are incapable of knowing. It's bigger than your mind can wrap around anyway".

So - finally - when I got sick of myself enough - I was able to at least try these things people did - praying/meditating - working the steps being willing to assume there was a HP even though I really didn't put much effort or thought into that - doing the whole 'praying for willingness to be willing, and the 2 weeks of prayer for those we are resentful toward' etc. Then something very strange happened. Though I still didn't believe in God, by doing these things, I was changing my thought process. I attributed it to a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts - because I was thinking/doing more positive things, I just felt better and so better things happened in return. But then... certain things would happen that were beyond what could really be just coincidence or explained by psychology. (I love psychology)

People warned me of this, to which I thought they were even dumber and more brain washed.

AND NOW I WAS SEEING IT WITH MY OWN EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The millions who were recovering through the help of a HP - were 'recovering' me - and that was just blasted at me all over the place, all of a sudden.

I had a hard time admitting this all at first. I just didn't want to be SO wrong of course - who does?

I kept trying to talk myself out of it - but soon - I realized that pushing this out of my life longer made me the dumb one. I just didn't need to keep making things hard for myself. This was working, and I felt the presence of a loving HP. Why reject LOVE? Scared maybe. Still very little true FAITH. For me, having faith that I was where I was suppose to be, just like everybody else, took practice and validation. I had to keep inching ever deeper into it, like freezing cold water. I had to SEE with my own eyes other people doing it/saying it/believing it. And I did.

I went through a period of time where I was so scared it would stop, or go away, or if I didn't do certain things it would dissipate. But this God was a part of me now. He took care of all that, and put my mind at rest when I just couldn't take all the fear anymore. Clearly the adult child issues played a part in that, so he led me to work on those issues here at MIP and in meetings and now... just as the 12 steps were meant to lead us to a spiritual awakening - they did - and I am capable of being my own loving parent through the understanding I have of my all loving God. But I had to do run through those steps 1/2 ass a couple times with no willingness and failure - to do it WITH willingness and open mindedness that I could be wrong and I don't really know what is/isn't - to achieve success.

Why me? Is about all I really wonder now. Why did I get this grace, this peace, this knowledge and this level of acceptance to something I was so against.

I'm starting to believe I will know some day.

Today COULD be the day - so I will keep my eyes open to be looking for those spiritual experiences. I will stay willing to be wrong, and not understand it all today.

odat · Senior Member

There are two very important pages at the end of the Big Book called "drum roll please) "Spiritual Experience".

imagine that??

theres a reason they're written at the end of the Big Book...(Hint, hint!)